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The success of EQ advancement.

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  • PhelcherPhelcher Boston, MAPosts: 1,053Member
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Originally posted by Lonzo

    Why all these Quest games? With leveling by questing you are limited to just ONE way of leveling. Back in the days with EQ there where leveling groups everywhere in every dungeon and in every zone. It was just good old dungeon crawling. And the few quests seem very important and meaningful....

     

    I miss those days...

    Games evolve, most people need directions thats how life works these days. 

     

    The best part of EQ and EQ2 in current days is still their AA system.

     

    Games also devolve and seek out the common denominator, making them mostly the same.

    "No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


    -Nariusseldon

  • PhelcherPhelcher Boston, MAPosts: 1,053Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by LauraFrost
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Mindless grind and spawncamping? -No thank you.

    There's nothing like mindless running from Point A, to B, to C for no reasing wasting 50% of my time just running doing errands I don't want to do yet I have to do.

     

    Give people the freedom to choose what they want to do.

     

     

    THIS. A thousand times this. I'd rather camp mobs than do quest grinding any day. It was an honest grind. The game didn't try to disguise the chore with see through paper and pretend they're giving you something great. I feel insulted when I do "quests" in modern MMOs.

    In old MMos, I went where I wanted, picked my own difficulty by how many of what kind of mob I pulled, and I had friends there helping me (no instances).

    And when I wanted to do quests, I talked to NPCs and eventually found detailed, REAL quests, not tasks.

     

    And seriously guys, learn to ignore Narius. He just tries to derail every thread he enters by talking about how much he likes Diablo and saying that it's an MMO.

     

     

    So.. you an oldschooler and would rather play an oldschool game & the reason you're here on MMORPG.com...

    So.. why is Narius talking about non-mmorpg things... (& non-mmo things..)   

     

     

    Q: Now^ ponder why somone would live within a forum, racketing up 10K posts..  discussing off topic stories/ideas.. relentlessly trying to persuade public sentiment..

    A: He gets paid to..

     

    "No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


    -Nariusseldon

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Lonzo
    Why all these Quest games? With leveling by questing you are limited to just ONE way of leveling. Back in the days with EQ there where leveling groups everywhere in every dungeon and in every zone. It was just good old dungeon crawling. And the few quests seem very important and meaningful.... I miss those days...

    x10. Let's hope EQN isn't worthless :)

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,853Member Uncommon
    Agreed on the EQN part. They have adjusting parameters for player dungeons and PvP, maybe they will have the environment scale with additional group mates with additional xp?

    It would be one thing of the xp of a mob = combined total of the quest (600xp for x10 quest, 60xp for each mob) but in most games the mob xp is reall small.
  • PhelcherPhelcher Boston, MAPosts: 1,053Member

    MMORPG's should get away from having EXP bars and just track all that internally, leaving the character to be surprised when they have earned enough experience to learn something new.

    It isn't about levels, it was about experience that levels represented... newer gen doesn't understand this. Later came min/max'ers who didn't care about experience process, they were drawn to the competiveness. But not understanding the right of passage part, divided two gen's.

     

    Those who don't understand the importance of "experienced earned", don't understand MMORPG's..

     

     

     

    Nothing wrong with arcade MMo's..  but those are not ever the topic on this forum, as it is a MMORPG forum and roleplaying must always be part of the equation, less you are off topic. (Roleplaying doesn't meaning how you chat, but taking on a persona and staying true to it relentlessly.)

     

     

    "No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


    -Nariusseldon

  • SlampigSlampig Chantilly, VAPosts: 2,376Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Waterlily
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Mindless grind and spawncamping? -No thank you.

    Grinding was fun back then, it's why you could level at a snail pace and no one thought it was a problem.

    It took the first person to max level months, someone said 9 months a while ago, I think that's likely accurate.

    Grind in Everquest was a bit like sitting in a forest with your friends, you know the situation you're in sucks, you're surrounded by monsters ready to kill you and if you die you're pretty screwed since you'll be running back naked, but you're bonding with people aroudn joke, you start to make jokes and start to get to know each other, the fact you are killing doesn't really matter anymore, it's secondary to the company you're in.

    It took me about 3 months, maybe a bit more to get to level 50 on Rallos Zek. There were a few before me but I was the first barbarian warrior, woohaa!

    That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  • LatronusLatronus Lexington Park, MDPosts: 692Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Waterlily
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Mindless grind and spawncamping? -No thank you.

    Grinding was fun back then, it's why you could level at a snail pace and no one thought it was a problem.

    It took the first person to max level months, someone said 9 months a while ago, I think that's likely accurate.

    Grind in Everquest was a bit like sitting in a forest with your friends, you know the situation you're in sucks, you're surrounded by monsters ready to kill you and if you die you're pretty screwed since you'll be running back naked, but you're bonding with people aroudn joke, you start to make jokes and start to get to know each other, the fact you are killing doesn't really matter anymore, it's secondary to the company you're in.

    No. Grinding has never been fun - even then. I was there. Didn't stay long.

    But the kill 10 XXX mob grind is fun?  Or is it that making a meaningless quest helps to "hide" the grind because that's a cop out pure and simple.  Grind is grind and ALL MMOs are full of grind.  

    It kills me how people will complain about EQ and yet they swear WoWs gear grind is da bomb.  Grind is grind now matter how hide it it EQ was a lot more fun than what we have today.  I just wonder which company will release a game where you start at max level with best in slot gear  and have 1 button on the UI that says "I Win!"  It would probably be a hit with the newer generations...  That was of course sarcasm.

    image
  • PhoenixC13PhoenixC13 Sonoma, CAPosts: 122Member Uncommon
    I can name more people I played EQ with 10 years ago then WoW a year ago......

    image
  • ragz45ragz45 rochester hills, MIPosts: 686Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Mindless grind and spawncamping? -No thank you.

    Mindless repetitive quests, soloing, and anti-social behavior?  No thank you.

  • osiriszoranosiriszoran oakland park, FLPosts: 86Member
    Is there an MMO out there where i can collect gear to get more gear so that i can get more gear in future patches that have slightly better stats and looks like a viking helmet?
  • ragz45ragz45 rochester hills, MIPosts: 686Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by PhoenixC13
    I can name more people I played EQ with 10 years ago then WoW a year ago......

    LoL same boat.  I have people i've gone and visited in RL that I meet in EQ.  I can't even remember the names of anyone I've played other games with and since quit.

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member

    It was fun at the time but I have no desire to play that style of game again.

    Really the only thing I miss from those days is the overall sense f community that existed (for the most part) in older mmos like EQ.

    Can think of a hell of a lot more I don't miss...at all...

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • WaterlilyWaterlily parisPosts: 2,973Member Uncommon

    Really the only thing I miss from those days is the overall sense f community that existed

    that's the only reason to play mmo

    outside of community there is no reason to play mmo, you might as well play a multiplayer game then or solo game

  • Originally posted by Quirhid
    Mindless grind and spawncamping? -No thank you.

    Except it isn't midless at all, unless you would play it like a wow dungeon where no one speaks except to say hi and bye.

    If you played mindlessly as some classes, your group died. Ex. Any healer, Enchanter, Wizard, Bard

    Also, Mindless questing and returning with my 10 wolf furs? -No thank you. 

    In EQ, you were never by yourself unless you were kiting and that could possibly take forever if you didn't know what you were doing. There was a community in-game other than just the loudmouths asking, "umad?"

    I would take finding a good spot to pull enemies to and kill them with a bit of challenge over being able to solo my way to max level through fedex quests.

    Now spawncamping, In EQ that was generally done in what today's mmogamers would call dungeons. Otherwise, out in the world of Norrath, enemies roamed. There wasn't a pack of wolves in the same place all the time waiting for some one to kill it. To me that is mindless AI.

     

  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Fredericksburg, VAPosts: 2,920Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Mindless grind and spawncamping? -No thank you.

     Absolutely not!  We'd never want to hinder your "me me me" mindset now would we?

     Becuase we all know that mindless grinding and spawncamping bosses didn't make MMO's what they were popular for.

     No one EVER fought over the spawn of a boss.

     It's always give me my own private spawn for my own private dungeon so I can kill and have all the loot to myself with never having to worry about loot stealing.

    (All sarcasm aside) Jeez, what's with people these days?

     I know what's wrong. The true MMO gamer is 1/100,000 now and the mindless drone consumer has taken over the MMO market. This is how we end up with crap games that barely last 3-5 months before they're forced to go F2P.

     Give our worlds back you mindless drones!

     I'm all for games where I have to fight with the other guy even if it requires me bumping heads ingame until I finally win (or walk off with my tail between my legs in defeat). It promotes longevity and healthy competition. Which is good for the game. I     don't want themepark MMO's and the locust consume them faster than the standard developer can spit them out. There's no long term profit in them. So get your minds on the right path and make it for the true MMO gamer. If the carebears bellyache that the game's too hard. Tell them to toughen up or GTFO. That's what makes a game last for 10-13 years. Not this catering to their every will.

    Giving handouts to every carebear child and their mother/father just promotes a game with a shortlife span. Games like this don't work and the only exception to this fact is WoW. Because WoW itself wasn't a carebear/hand holding game from the start. It took a good long time for people to earn their loot. There was blood shed on the open PvP worlds and there were open world bosses to be fought over. That's what established WoW as a great game in the beginning.

     Now we've got private dungeons and raid where we can simply beat our pinata's in peace with no threat of danger lurking over our shoulders to steal the kill from us and it sickens me to no end.

     

     

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member
    Originally posted by Waterlily

    Really the only thing I miss from those days is the overall sense f community that existed

    that's the only reason to play mmo

    outside of community there is no reason to play mmo, you might as well play a multiplayer game then or solo game

    No it isn't. There are other compelling elements least to some mmos that make them worthwhile.

    ...and there are still some that have a great community. Just not to the length and extent you used to find in older games like EQ.

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Mindless grind and spawncamping? -No thank you.

     Absolutely not!  We'd never want to hinder your "me me me" mindset now would we?

     Becuase we all know that mindless grinding and spawncamping bosses didn't make MMO's what they were popular for.

     No one EVER fought over the spawn of a boss.

     It's always give me my own private spawn for my own private dungeon so I can kill and have all the loot to myself with never having to worry about loot stealing.

    (All sarcasm aside) Jeez, what's with people these days?

     I know what's wrong. The true MMO gamer is 1/100,000 now and the mindless drone consumer has taken over the MMO market. This is how we end up with crap games that barely last 3-5 months before they're forced to go F2P.

     Give our worlds back you mindless drones!

     I'm all for games where I have to fight with the other guy even if it requires me bumping heads ingame until I finally win (or walk off with my tail between my legs in defeat). It promotes longevity and healthy competition. Which is good for the game. I     don't want themepark MMO's and the locust consume them faster than the standard developer can spit them out. There's no long term profit in them. So get your minds on the right path and make it for the true MMO gamer. If the carebears bellyache that the game's too hard. Tell them to toughen up or GTFO. That's what makes a game last for 10-13 years. Not this catering to their every will.

    Giving handouts to every carebear child and their mother/father just promotes a game with a shortlife span. Games like this don't work and the only exception to this fact is WoW. Because WoW itself wasn't a carebear/hand holding game from the start. It took a good long time for people to earn their loot. There was blood shed on the open PvP worlds and there were open world bosses to be fought over. That's what established WoW as a great game in the beginning.

     Now we've got private dungeons and raid where we can simply beat our pinata's in peace with no threat of danger lurking over our shoulders to steal the kill from us and it sickens me to no end.

    Nice strawman you've built there.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by jonesing22
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Mindless grind and spawncamping? -No thank you.

    Except it isn't midless at all, unless you would play it like a wow dungeon where no one speaks except to say hi and bye.

    If you played mindlessly as some classes, your group died. Ex. Any healer, Enchanter, Wizard, Bard

    Also, Mindless questing and returning with my 10 wolf furs? -No thank you. 

    In EQ, you were never by yourself unless you were kiting and that could possibly take forever if you didn't know what you were doing. There was a community in-game other than just the loudmouths asking, "umad?"

    I would take finding a good spot to pull enemies to and kill them with a bit of challenge over being able to solo my way to max level through fedex quests.

    Now spawncamping, In EQ that was generally done in what today's mmogamers would call dungeons. Otherwise, out in the world of Norrath, enemies roamed. There wasn't a pack of wolves in the same place all the time waiting for some one to kill it. To me that is mindless AI.

    Trinity combat already implies mindless AI. I'd rather shave my face with a rusty nail than go back to hard trinity and grind. The amount of it. And the downtimes, the waiting for groups... That shit was horrible.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,853Member Uncommon
    I'm not sure what a trinity system has to do with AI intelligence. Even in GW2 the mobs use the same aggro system. I like a more open class system but there is something to be said about roles when you add harder content. The higher difficulty made a competent player more valuable and remembered.

    I really don't blame anyone that wouldn't want to go back to the EQ style of play. It does have a certain charm though and it's rewarding aspect goes far beyond quest rewards. I hope some newer game brings that feeling back even though EQ is still going strong.
  • OberholzerOberholzer Hasbrouck Heights, NJPosts: 498Member
    I'd like a mixture. Quests if you want, mobs to grind if you don't but aren't there mobs to be killed even in quest based games? I do wish quests seemed more epic though. Longer, more involved with real challenges. I played EQ1 so I'm certainly familiar with camping and grinding mobs and after the novelty wore off it did get boring. Dungeons and caves were more fun and being in the open world did add to the danger. Some of my favorite grinds were actually mobile ones, not staying at a camp but keeping the group moving across Norrath, trying to kill whatever you happened upon. Don't really miss camping placeholders though, killing a mob over and over hoping for the rare one to pop was tedious. 
  • psiicpsiic Tampa, FLPosts: 943Member Uncommon

    Honestly what set EQ apart was a total sense of a real community. 

     

    People needed to group to advance, so to those ends you would meet and interact POSITIVELY with the other players around you. 

     

    This in turn allowed you to get to know a larger segment of the server populations. Thereby giving you a larger sense of a real " virtual " community. 

     

    As a result servers felt alive. We as a community depended on each other, as a result we got to know each other.

     

    Some of the best friends of my life I met playing everquest, and it grew from there.

     

    Many of my EQ friends I still talk to at least 3 times a week.  We trade birthday and xmas cards/presents, and have now and then even traded our kids. 

    We live close to Disney, so one summer we had everyone across the country send us their kids for a month.

    Was really fun but kinda crazy, we had 14 kids here mostly from the north and midwest who had never seen the ocean ( we live on the beach ) or been to Disney.

    Lemme tell ya that is not the kind of need or trust you form with people playing modern

    Massive Solo Online Role Play Games. 

     

     

     

     

  • PsycospankPsycospank Alicew SpringsPosts: 36Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Waterlily
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    No. Grinding has never been fun

    It was fun for people who played EQ.

    If grinding has never been fun then why could people tolerate taking a year to get to max level, doing hell levels at lvl 54 that lasted weeks just to get one level.

    That's only possilbe if they are enjoying themselves. Imagine if in Guild Wars 2,  it took a year to get to max level, loooooooooool, people would have QQ'd the forums with buckets of tears about the grind. However, in Everquest, no one cared.

    In GW2 the first max level was seen before the game was even launched, in Everquest the first max level took 9 months. I mean players of Everquest were way more hardcore, but not that hardcore that you can explain the difference without attributing some to the game mechanics which made grinding enjoyable with the right people.

    I agree, grinding in escence was the whole point. The investment that you needed even to get to lvl 10 was huge. Nothing was really given to you back then. Sure I dont want to go back to that grind, for a number of reason (mainly time constraints). 

    For me most games these days are so easy and casual in nature that there isnt really the investment in your characters. Its there behind the scenes like the traits in LOTRO and legacy in SWTOR (sort of) but its more an optional investment. If you want to play a few hours a week no problem (which works for me)

    In EQ I remember leaving my character swimming over night to get the swimming skill up, and creating macros where my character was casting continuously.  and dont get me started on selling stuff before the bizarre. It was a true investment. I miss that aspect of EQ more than anything else, even though I dont want to do it again anytime soon :).

    image
  • Tyvolus4Tyvolus4 lincoln, NEPosts: 175Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Originally posted by Lonzo

    Why all these Quest games? With leveling by questing you are limited to just ONE way of leveling. Back in the days with EQ there where leveling groups everywhere in every dungeon and in every zone. It was just good old dungeon crawling. And the few quests seem very important and meaningful....

     

    I miss those days...

    Games evolve, most people need directions thats how life works these days. 

     

    The best part of EQ and EQ2 in current days is still their AA system.

    I think you are confusing evolve with regress.  think about it for a second or two.

  • qombiqombi Unknown, LAPosts: 1,180Member
    The possibility remains of just an exciting cool terrific game, you just have to search like it's 1999!
  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Fredericksburg, VAPosts: 2,920Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Mindless grind and spawncamping? -No thank you.

     Absolutely not!  We'd never want to hinder your "me me me" mindset now would we?

     Becuase we all know that mindless grinding and spawncamping bosses didn't make MMO's what they were popular for.

     No one EVER fought over the spawn of a boss.

     It's always give me my own private spawn for my own private dungeon so I can kill and have all the loot to myself with never having to worry about loot stealing.

    (All sarcasm aside) Jeez, what's with people these days?

     I know what's wrong. The true MMO gamer is 1/100,000 now and the mindless drone consumer has taken over the MMO market. This is how we end up with crap games that barely last 3-5 months before they're forced to go F2P.

     Give our worlds back you mindless drones!

     I'm all for games where I have to fight with the other guy even if it requires me bumping heads ingame until I finally win (or walk off with my tail between my legs in defeat). It promotes longevity and healthy competition. Which is good for the game. I     don't want themepark MMO's and the locust consume them faster than the standard developer can spit them out. There's no long term profit in them. So get your minds on the right path and make it for the true MMO gamer. If the carebears bellyache that the game's too hard. Tell them to toughen up or GTFO. That's what makes a game last for 10-13 years. Not this catering to their every will.

    Giving handouts to every carebear child and their mother/father just promotes a game with a shortlife span. Games like this don't work and the only exception to this fact is WoW. Because WoW itself wasn't a carebear/hand holding game from the start. It took a good long time for people to earn their loot. There was blood shed on the open PvP worlds and there were open world bosses to be fought over. That's what established WoW as a great game in the beginning.

     Now we've got private dungeons and raid where we can simply beat our pinata's in peace with no threat of danger lurking over our shoulders to steal the kill from us and it sickens me to no end.

    Nice strawman you've built there.

     I'm still right, carebears and the mindless drone consumers have destroyed the mmo market.

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
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