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Will the real ESO please stand-up?

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  • rygard49rygard49 Huntington Beach, CAPosts: 975Member
    Originally posted by sapphen
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Just as DAoC players are expectign a full fledged 3 faction experience. If DAoC 2 was being made and they made it ffa pvp instead of 3 faction, do you think for a minute that DAoC players wouldn't have something to say about it?

    ROFL! +1

    Face meets mirror.

     

    DAoC had FFA PvP. It was very popular for a very long time.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,453Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by sapphen
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Just as DAoC players are expectign a full fledged 3 faction experience. If DAoC 2 was being made and they made it ffa pvp instead of 3 faction, do you think for a minute that DAoC players wouldn't have something to say about it?

    ROFL! +1

    Face meets mirror.

     

    And mirror reflects an inferior cobbled together mess in both a ffa DAoC and a TES lobby game. You do know you want a TES lobby don't you?

    But you say that based on what? No one has ever said they wanted a TES lobby game.

  • elohssaelohssa Winchester, NYPosts: 38Member
    Originally posted by Arglebargle

    Having race locked alliances is a developer conveniance, not some absolute model of historical accuracy.  In WWII for example, there were hundreds of thousands of crossovers:  Russians fighting for the Germans, Italians and Germans in the American camp,  pro axis and pro allied French, etc.  Not even mentioning the high profile 'turncoats'.  You can find this throughout history.   Racial locking is actualy far more unbelievable, to my view.

     

    Me, I don't care about the three factions at all.  The PVP is mostly irrelevant.  But as an example, there are four possible players (and buyers) of ESO in my household, each with fairly strong preferences for the race of their characters.   It's a smart thing for the game if we can play together.  The game's design makes that more difficult to do.  If getting rid of that difficulty increases revenue for Zenimax, they seriously need to consider it.  

    Sure that happened, but those people were by far the minority.  If its a complete toss up what faction you are alligned with, then that won't be the case. 

    I don't know why groups of friends couldn't just compromise on this issue, and pick a race they like on that faction. 

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,610Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by sapphen
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Just as DAoC players are expectign a full fledged 3 faction experience. If DAoC 2 was being made and they made it ffa pvp instead of 3 faction, do you think for a minute that DAoC players wouldn't have something to say about it?

    ROFL! +1

    Face meets mirror.

     

    And mirror reflects an inferior cobbled together mess in both a ffa DAoC and a TES lobby game. You do know you want a TES lobby don't you?

    But you say that based on what? No one has ever said they wanted a TES lobby game.

    Really? Group with whomever from whichever faction and do dungeons and raids with them. Then go to the PvP instance and fight against them. Sounds like 2 totally different and incongrous games to me. That's what a lobby game is: a gateway to different games...it's Richard Garriot's new thing even...the way of the future donchaknow :)

    Standing in Stormwind (or Dalaran or wherever) and Q'ing in different matchmaking services is the WOW lobby way...but that's not required. Just piecing together different chunks without a lot of thought for the whole thing is what defines a lobby game.

  • sapphensapphen Madison, NCPosts: 911Member Common
    Originally posted by elohssa
    Originally posted by sapphen
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by sapphen

    What makes you think everyone considers TPV the "path of least resistence" ~ What if they have plans to make FPV-only Cyrodiil Campaigns?  Some people may consider FPV more fun than TPV.  Nonetheless it's still an assumption and using a phrase like "small minority" is illogical.  There was a large enough group that asked for FPV, thereforth it is added into the game.

    Out of curiosity were you using "illogical" ironically? Cause if not you should check the definition cause yeah...

    Anyway, even with ignoring the "what if" you decided to toss in there the number of times experiments like you propose have actually been wildly popular are extremely few and far between. Even then they require a non deviance from the ruleset. Things like the perma death server for Aoc for example. The reason they won't do things like that is because fov matters in terms of balance. They will not rebalance 400+ abilities for that sort of pvp experience. Fov matters.

    It is a logical fallacy to say people who are for FPV are in the minority.  You are dismissing someone's view as irrelevant and therefore it is illogical.

    Why would they have to rebalance abilities for that, it doesn't make sense.

    That is not a logical fallacy. 

    Past trends can easily be used to predict future trends.  Past trends clearly show us players take the path of least resistance, and they won't use the FPV.

    If you have an opposing opinion, but offer no evidence, then your opinion can be rightfully dismissed.

    Logical Fallacy - a fallacy in logical argumentation
    Fallacy - a misconception resulting from incorrect reasoning

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/logical+fallacy

    You are assuming that not many people will play in FPV because TPV has a sight advantage.  I rebute by saying we do not know the minority.  People may play TPV in PvP or dungeons but there will be many people who uses FPV.

    If you are using past trends to predict future ones, then wouldn't Skyrim and Oblivion be proof that many people play in FPV (or at least a little of both).  I do not accept that TPV is the path of least resistance, it does have a sight advantage but there are many fine attributes of FPV.

    I am not claiming that FPV is in the majority, but saying we simply do not know.  You offer no evidence otherwise so I rightfully dismiss you.

     

     

     

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,610Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by sapphen
    Originally posted by elohssa
    Originally posted by sapphen
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by sapphen

    What makes you think everyone considers TPV the "path of least resistence" ~ What if they have plans to make FPV-only Cyrodiil Campaigns?  Some people may consider FPV more fun than TPV.  Nonetheless it's still an assumption and using a phrase like "small minority" is illogical.  There was a large enough group that asked for FPV, thereforth it is added into the game.

    Out of curiosity were you using "illogical" ironically? Cause if not you should check the definition cause yeah...

    Anyway, even with ignoring the "what if" you decided to toss in there the number of times experiments like you propose have actually been wildly popular are extremely few and far between. Even then they require a non deviance from the ruleset. Things like the perma death server for Aoc for example. The reason they won't do things like that is because fov matters in terms of balance. They will not rebalance 400+ abilities for that sort of pvp experience. Fov matters.

    It is a logical fallacy to say people who are for FPV are in the minority.  You are dismissing someone's view as irrelevant and therefore it is illogical.

    Why would they have to rebalance abilities for that, it doesn't make sense.

    That is not a logical fallacy. 

    Past trends can easily be used to predict future trends.  Past trends clearly show us players take the path of least resistance, and they won't use the FPV.

    If you have an opposing opinion, but offer no evidence, then your opinion can be rightfully dismissed.

    Logical Fallacy - a fallacy in logical argumentation
    Fallacy - a misconception resulting from incorrect reasoning

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/logical+fallacy

    You are assuming that not many people will play in FPV because TPV has a sight advantage.  I rebute by saying we do not know the minority.  People may play TPV in PvP or dungeons but there will be many people who uses FPV.

    If you are using past trends to predict future ones, then wouldn't Skyrim and Oblivion be proof that many people play in FPV (or at least a little of both).  I do not accept that TPV is the path of least resistance, it does have a sight advantage but there are many fine attributes of FPV.

    I am not claiming that FPV is in the majority, but saying we simply do not know.  You offer no evidence otherwise so I rightfully dismiss you.

     

     

     

    Small advantage? Which MMOs have you ever played in FPV primarily? How did you do in groups? PvP?

    Speking of logical fallacies...Faulty Causation...look it up lol.

  • elohssaelohssa Winchester, NYPosts: 38Member
    Originally posted by sapphen
    Originally posted by elohssa
    Originally posted by sapphen
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by sapphen

    What makes you think everyone considers TPV the "path of least resistence" ~ What if they have plans to make FPV-only Cyrodiil Campaigns?  Some people may consider FPV more fun than TPV.  Nonetheless it's still an assumption and using a phrase like "small minority" is illogical.  There was a large enough group that asked for FPV, thereforth it is added into the game.

    Out of curiosity were you using "illogical" ironically? Cause if not you should check the definition cause yeah...

    Anyway, even with ignoring the "what if" you decided to toss in there the number of times experiments like you propose have actually been wildly popular are extremely few and far between. Even then they require a non deviance from the ruleset. Things like the perma death server for Aoc for example. The reason they won't do things like that is because fov matters in terms of balance. They will not rebalance 400+ abilities for that sort of pvp experience. Fov matters.

    It is a logical fallacy to say people who are for FPV are in the minority.  You are dismissing someone's view as irrelevant and therefore it is illogical.

    Why would they have to rebalance abilities for that, it doesn't make sense.

    That is not a logical fallacy. 

    Past trends can easily be used to predict future trends.  Past trends clearly show us players take the path of least resistance, and they won't use the FPV.

    If you have an opposing opinion, but offer no evidence, then your opinion can be rightfully dismissed.

    Logical Fallacy - a fallacy in logical argumentation
    Fallacy - a misconception resulting from incorrect reasoning

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/logical+fallacy

    You are assuming that not many people will play in FPV because TPV has a sight advantage.  I rebute by saying we do not know the minority.  People may play TPV in PvP or dungeons but there will be many people who uses FPV.

    If you are using past trends to predict future ones, then wouldn't Skyrim and Oblivion be proof that many people play in FPV (or at least a little of both).  I do not accept that TPV is the path of least resistance, it does have a sight advantage but there are many fine attributes of FPV.

    I am not claiming that FPV is in the majority, but saying we simply do not know.  You offer no evidence otherwise so I rightfully dismiss you.

     

    Actually there is a buttload of reasons I gave earlier, but the most prevalent one is that it is a HUGE advantage.  Not a slight advantage, a HUGE advantage.

     

    So you actually believe that past events have no bearing on future events, and we can't use past events to predict furture events?   I think investors would like to have a word with you about that....

    Thats almost like saying cause and effect don't exist.

     

    This is not a logical fallacy.  Which logical fallacy does this apply to exactly?

  • sapphensapphen Madison, NCPosts: 911Member Common
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by sapphen
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by sapphen
    Quaility and popularity are not polar opposites, great designers will design with both in mind.

     Sometimes you get both, yes. But that only happens when they focused on the quality not the other way around.

    Most of the time they are focused on making a game.  A design is born.  Then they tune the game to appeal to the target audience.  Quality is checked by a different team.

    I understand what you are saying, personally prefer quaility over popularity, but I think this only loosely applies here.

    Unfortunately I think it applies. Here's how I see it.

    They set-out to create and announced a very specific type of game.

    They got some negative feedback from people who had some different priorities and ideas about how a TES MMO should be done.

    They balked... added FPS mode TES style (with hands now) despite the fact that it's a really awkward way to play an MMO...which they had originally explained. They added a token explorable instanced copy of the other zones to appease those who objected to faction lock for exploring reasons (there are many other reasons why some don't like faction lock as you know.)

    They are still designing, not QCing this and they're already showing a disturbing lack of conviction.

    Or put another way...they are going with the popuklar flow instead of their vision. I don't have a lot of respect for that kind of "creative" process. I'd much rather get something other than my wet dream because they are designing it the way they think it's best.

    I already said in my OP that they could have easily gone the other way with their original design: a non-locked Tamriel with something other than a 3-sided WAR driving the plot. I like the way they originally announced it better, but I could have respect for them had they originally gone the other way and stuck to their vision.

    So yeah. Now it seems they're trying to be the most popular girl in school. I hope they don't get the clap.

    Things change while in development... deal with it.  I hate that you guys have to see the uglyness of the design process but it happens all the time in house.  This feedback they are getting are from hired employees, not forum fodder.  You have to remember that this IS a TES game, spin-off or not, and TES fans are one of the target audiences.

    They did not popularize or lose conviction, you create those perceptions. That's fine if you want to feel like that this isn't a quality versus popularity issue here - it's a perception issue.  What you feel is "popular garbage" is quality to others.

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,610Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by sapphen
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by sapphen
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by sapphen
    Quaility and popularity are not polar opposites, great designers will design with both in mind.

     Sometimes you get both, yes. But that only happens when they focused on the quality not the other way around.

    Most of the time they are focused on making a game.  A design is born.  Then they tune the game to appeal to the target audience.  Quality is checked by a different team.

    I understand what you are saying, personally prefer quaility over popularity, but I think this only loosely applies here.

    Unfortunately I think it applies. Here's how I see it.

    They set-out to create and announced a very specific type of game.

    They got some negative feedback from people who had some different priorities and ideas about how a TES MMO should be done.

    They balked... added FPS mode TES style (with hands now) despite the fact that it's a really awkward way to play an MMO...which they had originally explained. They added a token explorable instanced copy of the other zones to appease those who objected to faction lock for exploring reasons (there are many other reasons why some don't like faction lock as you know.)

    They are still designing, not QCing this and they're already showing a disturbing lack of conviction.

    Or put another way...they are going with the popuklar flow instead of their vision. I don't have a lot of respect for that kind of "creative" process. I'd much rather get something other than my wet dream because they are designing it the way they think it's best.

    I already said in my OP that they could have easily gone the other way with their original design: a non-locked Tamriel with something other than a 3-sided WAR driving the plot. I like the way they originally announced it better, but I could have respect for them had they originally gone the other way and stuck to their vision.

    So yeah. Now it seems they're trying to be the most popular girl in school. I hope they don't get the clap.

    Things change while in development... deal with it.  I hate that you guys have to see the uglyness of the design process but it happens all the time in house.  This feedback they are getting are from hired employees, not forum fodder.  You have to remember that this IS a TES game, spin-off or not, and TES fans are one of the target audiences.

    They did not popularize or lose conviction, you create those perceptions. That's fine if you want to feel like that this isn't a quality versus popularity issue here - it's a perception issue.  What you feel is "popular garbage" is quality to others.

     Indeed. I couldn't have said it better myself image

  • sapphensapphen Madison, NCPosts: 911Member Common
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by sapphen

    It is a logical fallacy to say people who are for FPV are in the minority.  You are dismissing someone's view as irrelevant and therefore it is illogical.

    No its not. You can play in fpv in WoW too, are you really going to attempt to state that 51% of the Wow playerbase plays in first person? Of course not, that would be a retarded statment to make. Fov offers too much of an advantage to overcome versus the "fun" you get for being in first person. You see a similar trend with Keyboard vs mouse turning, though the additional bit of performance is sometimes not enough to overcome the cost of relearning the new system, though even that is changing and has been for awhile.

    I'm certainly not going to aruge that most people play TPV in a game that hasn't even been released yet.  I disagree that there is a huge disadvantage to FPV but still many can use it in open world PvE.  There are going to be many people coming from TES games that do not care about PvP and may prefer to play in that view.

    We do NOT know the numbers but they was high enough to convince the developers to change a multimillion dollar game.  That's a fact.

     

    Why would they have to rebalance abilities for that, it doesn't make sense.
     

    The strength of abilities is directly linked to how much utility they have. For example there was a period during vanilla Wow when mages kept rank 1 arcane explosion on their bar as it gave them an easy low cost way to get rogues and cats out of stealth. That level 1 spell became so powerful that Blizzard had to go out of their way to nerf it. If for example one was stuck in a fpv then the aoe nature of it would be no where near as good unless you sat in a single place spinning and spamming, which is a very different utilization.

    That's reaching hard.  I don't know how the developers balance abilities but I'm almost certain NONE of them has to be changed because of FOV.

     

    What are you even talking about.  You try to insult me and then meander off topic.  What experience do you have in marketing to claim that a company spending millions of dollars relies only on a 'gut feeling'?  I understand that many ideas are wildcards but when developing those ideas you refer to the numbers.  Marketing is all about gathering these numbers and appealing to as many people as possible within the target audience.

    No attempt nor intent to insult. You admitted that you are woefully ignorant, and to be honest you are.

    What the fuck is this shit?  You are full of yourself if you think I'm gonna read your response after addressing me like that.

    I'm sorry but you are trying way too hard for a simple discussion.  I said that we do not know who is in the majority and by saying that you are being illogical.  Try to trim down your responses some, use paragraphs and stay on topic.  I am not here for you to get your jollies off arguing nonsensical rubbish.

    Whatever view gives you the biggest advantage for the lowest cost will be the one used. Plain and simple. That has been third person for the last decade. Saying otherwise is a fools errend.

    Have you never played an Elder Scrolls game before?  You do not even take into account how many of those games have both options, that was a general statement that barely had meaning on anything we're discussing.  We are talking about how many people will use FPV, not what activities they use it with.

  • sapphensapphen Madison, NCPosts: 911Member Common
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by sapphen
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Just as DAoC players are expectign a full fledged 3 faction experience. If DAoC 2 was being made and they made it ffa pvp instead of 3 faction, do you think for a minute that DAoC players wouldn't have something to say about it?

    ROFL! +1

    Face meets mirror.

     

    And mirror reflects an inferior cobbled together mess in both a ffa DAoC and a TES lobby game. You do know you want a TES lobby don't you?

    But you say that based on what? No one has ever said they wanted a TES lobby game.

    Really? Group with whomever from whichever faction and do dungeons and raids with them. Then go to the PvP instance and fight against them. Sounds like 2 totally different and incongrous games to me. That's what a lobby game is: a gateway to different games...it's Richard Garriot's new thing even...the way of the future donchaknow :)

    Standing in Stormwind (or Dalaran or wherever) and Q'ing in different matchmaking services is the WOW lobby way...but that's not required. Just piecing together different chunks without a lot of thought for the whole thing is what defines a lobby game.

    Grouping with different races has nothing to do with a lobby game.

  • sapphensapphen Madison, NCPosts: 911Member Common
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by sapphen
    Originally posted by elohssa
    Originally posted by sapphen
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by sapphen

    What makes you think everyone considers TPV the "path of least resistence" ~ What if they have plans to make FPV-only Cyrodiil Campaigns?  Some people may consider FPV more fun than TPV.  Nonetheless it's still an assumption and using a phrase like "small minority" is illogical.  There was a large enough group that asked for FPV, thereforth it is added into the game.

    Out of curiosity were you using "illogical" ironically? Cause if not you should check the definition cause yeah...

    Anyway, even with ignoring the "what if" you decided to toss in there the number of times experiments like you propose have actually been wildly popular are extremely few and far between. Even then they require a non deviance from the ruleset. Things like the perma death server for Aoc for example. The reason they won't do things like that is because fov matters in terms of balance. They will not rebalance 400+ abilities for that sort of pvp experience. Fov matters.

    It is a logical fallacy to say people who are for FPV are in the minority.  You are dismissing someone's view as irrelevant and therefore it is illogical.

    Why would they have to rebalance abilities for that, it doesn't make sense.

    That is not a logical fallacy. 

    Past trends can easily be used to predict future trends.  Past trends clearly show us players take the path of least resistance, and they won't use the FPV.

    If you have an opposing opinion, but offer no evidence, then your opinion can be rightfully dismissed.

    Logical Fallacy - a fallacy in logical argumentation
    Fallacy - a misconception resulting from incorrect reasoning

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/logical+fallacy

    You are assuming that not many people will play in FPV because TPV has a sight advantage.  I rebute by saying we do not know the minority.  People may play TPV in PvP or dungeons but there will be many people who uses FPV.

    If you are using past trends to predict future ones, then wouldn't Skyrim and Oblivion be proof that many people play in FPV (or at least a little of both).  I do not accept that TPV is the path of least resistance, it does have a sight advantage but there are many fine attributes of FPV.

    I am not claiming that FPV is in the majority, but saying we simply do not know.  You offer no evidence otherwise so I rightfully dismiss you.

    Small advantage? Which MMOs have you ever played in FPV primarily? How did you do in groups? PvP?

    Speking of logical fallacies...Faulty Causation...look it up lol.

    Yes, small advantage.  When in FPV you look around a lot, I know where enemies are even if I don't see them.  You'd be surprised at the difference but again most MMOs that have a proper FPV use it primarily.  I had no problems in Darkfall with PvP, I have no problem in FPS in PVP or groups (even ones that have melee systems).

    Personally I do not think there is a huge disavantage in FPV. 

  • sapphensapphen Madison, NCPosts: 911Member Common
    Originally posted by elohssa
    Originally posted by sapphen
    Originally posted by elohssa
    Originally posted by sapphen
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by sapphen

    What makes you think everyone considers TPV the "path of least resistence" ~ What if they have plans to make FPV-only Cyrodiil Campaigns?  Some people may consider FPV more fun than TPV.  Nonetheless it's still an assumption and using a phrase like "small minority" is illogical.  There was a large enough group that asked for FPV, thereforth it is added into the game.

    Out of curiosity were you using "illogical" ironically? Cause if not you should check the definition cause yeah...

    Anyway, even with ignoring the "what if" you decided to toss in there the number of times experiments like you propose have actually been wildly popular are extremely few and far between. Even then they require a non deviance from the ruleset. Things like the perma death server for Aoc for example. The reason they won't do things like that is because fov matters in terms of balance. They will not rebalance 400+ abilities for that sort of pvp experience. Fov matters.

    It is a logical fallacy to say people who are for FPV are in the minority.  You are dismissing someone's view as irrelevant and therefore it is illogical.

    Why would they have to rebalance abilities for that, it doesn't make sense.

    That is not a logical fallacy. 

    Past trends can easily be used to predict future trends.  Past trends clearly show us players take the path of least resistance, and they won't use the FPV.

    If you have an opposing opinion, but offer no evidence, then your opinion can be rightfully dismissed.

    Logical Fallacy - a fallacy in logical argumentation
    Fallacy - a misconception resulting from incorrect reasoning

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/logical+fallacy

    You are assuming that not many people will play in FPV because TPV has a sight advantage.  I rebute by saying we do not know the minority.  People may play TPV in PvP or dungeons but there will be many people who uses FPV.

    If you are using past trends to predict future ones, then wouldn't Skyrim and Oblivion be proof that many people play in FPV (or at least a little of both).  I do not accept that TPV is the path of least resistance, it does have a sight advantage but there are many fine attributes of FPV.

    I am not claiming that FPV is in the majority, but saying we simply do not know.  You offer no evidence otherwise so I rightfully dismiss you.

    Actually there is a buttload of reasons I gave earlier, but the most prevalent one is that it is a HUGE advantage.  Not a slight advantage, a HUGE advantage.

    So you actually believe that past events have no bearing on future events, and we can't use past events to predict furture events?   I think investors would like to have a word with you about that....

    Thats almost like saying cause and effect don't exist.

    This is not a logical fallacy.  Which logical fallacy does this apply to exactly?

    The degree of the advantage is personal opinion.  You can not claim that because TPV has an advantage that everyone will use it.

    Money talks and it just said add FPV.  I don't know if it was the investors but I'd love to have a word with them as well.

    http://www.theskepticsguide.org/resources/logicalfallacies.aspx here, look it up yourself.

  • elohssaelohssa Winchester, NYPosts: 38Member
    Originally posted by sapphen

    Yes, small advantage.  When in FPV you look around a lot, I know where enemies are even if I don't see them.  You'd be surprised at the difference but again most MMOs that have a proper FPV use it primarily.  I had no problems in Darkfall with PvP, I have no problem in FPS in PVP or groups (even ones that have melee systems).

    Personally I do not think there is a huge disavantage in FPV. 

    WTF is a proper FPV?  The picture of your hands floating around?  That has no bearing on gameplay...

     

     

    Originally posted by sapphen

    The degree of the advantage is personal opinion.  You can not claim that because TPV has an advantage that everyone will use it.

    Money talks and it just said add FPV.  I don't know if it was the investors but I'd love to have a word with them as well.

    http://www.theskepticsguide.org/resources/logicalfallacies.aspx here, look it up yourself.

    I already explained why they added it.  To appeal to a huge audience.  It has nothing to do with players using it.

    You just keep spouting the same garbage.  How about telling me which logical fallacy we are guilty of?

    The link, and the fact you had to look up the definition before clearly indicates to me that you don't know anything about philosophy and logical reasoning.

     

    You completely dismissed my trend comment also...

    Trend following is an investment strategy based on the technical analysis of market prices.

     

  • sapphensapphen Madison, NCPosts: 911Member Common
    Originally posted by elohssa
    Originally posted by sapphen

    Yes, small advantage.  When in FPV you look around a lot, I know where enemies are even if I don't see them.  You'd be surprised at the difference but again most MMOs that have a proper FPV use it primarily.  I had no problems in Darkfall with PvP, I have no problem in FPS in PVP or groups (even ones that have melee systems).

    Personally I do not think there is a huge disavantage in FPV. 

    WTF is a proper FPV?  The picture of your hands floating around?  That has no bearing on gameplay...

    You guys act like you're a complete retard in FPV.  Many games use it and "have enemies appear behind them".  It isn't that big of a disadvantage.

    Having arms and weapons is everything to gameplay, have you tried playing a FPS that does not have some sort of body UI?  You have to see what you're hitting, it just doesn't feel natural without seeing what you're doing from that perspective.

  • sapphensapphen Madison, NCPosts: 911Member Common
    Originally posted by elohssa
    Originally posted by sapphen

    The degree of the advantage is personal opinion.  You can not claim that because TPV has an advantage that everyone will use it.

    Money talks and it just said add FPV.  I don't know if it was the investors but I'd love to have a word with them as well.

    http://www.theskepticsguide.org/resources/logicalfallacies.aspx here, look it up yourself.

    I already explained why they added it.  To appeal to a huge audience.  It has nothing to do with players using it.

    You just keep spouting the same garbage.  How about telling me which logical fallacy we are guilty of?

    The link, and the fact you had to look up the definition before clearly indicates to me that you don't know anything about philosophy and logical reasoning.

    You completely dismissed my trend comment also...

    Trend following is an investment strategy based on the technical analysis of market prices

    To appeal to a huge audience yet you say FPV is the minority?

    I didn't have to look it up until someone questioned the defination of logical fallacy, then I linked it.

    I responded to your trend comment by saying that ALL TES games uses FPV primary.  This is not some generic MMO but a well establish franchise that is charactized by it's first person view.

  • elohssaelohssa Winchester, NYPosts: 38Member

    I have already proven to you that you can use past events to predict futurue events.  This is the basis of all human knowledge.  Cause and Effect. 

     

    Apparently you disagree with this somehow though....so I went to get you some numbers, and this is what I got.  A horde of people crying because they were stuck in first person view.  I think that is very telling, no.

     

    https://www.google.com/search?q=first+person+view+warcraft&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

     

     

    Here is a poll showing that only 57% of players perfer FPV all the time,

    http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.328614-Poll-First-or-Third-person-view-in-Skyrim?page=4

     

    Here is another with only 40%

    http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1653017

     

    Here is another at 43%

    http://www.ps3trophies.org/forum/elder-scrolls-v-skyrim/139838-what-do-you-prefer-first-person-third-person-3.html

     

  • sapphensapphen Madison, NCPosts: 911Member Common
    Originally posted by elohssa

    I have already proven to you that you can use past events to predict futurue events.  This is the basis of all human knowledge.  Cause and Effect. 

    Apparently you disagree with this somehow though....so I went to get you some numbers, and this is what I got.  A horde of people crying because they were stuck in first person view.  I think that is very telling, no.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=first+person+view+warcraft&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

    Here is a poll showing that only 57% of players perfer FPV all the time,

    http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.328614-Poll-First-or-Third-person-view-in-Skyrim?page=4

    I don't think WoW would be a good example because you can't see your hand/weapons.  I respect you feel it isn't a big deal but to me personally, it makes a huge difference.  57% of players who only use FPV in Skyrim, 88% adding people who use both, those are not a small minority.

    Even if you use past events to predict future outcomes, it is not logically reconized as truth.  I could predict that many people would use FPV just because they like the challenge and immersion but that doesn't mean I would be correct.

    Originally posted by elohssa

    Here is another with only 40%

    http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1653017

    In that one only 10% used it in TPV only.  The other 90% used FPV.

    Here is another at 43%

    http://www.ps3trophies.org/forum/elder-scrolls-v-skyrim/139838-what-do-you-prefer-first-person-third-person-3.html

    Again only 17% used TPV only.

    Considering that this IS a TES game, do these numbers not provide reasonable doubt that FPV will be in the minority?

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by sapphen

    I don't think WoW would be a good example because you can't see your hand/weapons.  I respect you feel it isn't a big deal but to me personally, it makes a huge difference.  57% of players who only use FPV in Skyrim, 88% adding people who use both, those are not a small minority.

    WoW is a much better judge because its a better measurement of the playerbase. None of those polls are even semi close to reasonable because they are not representative of the playerbase. Besides which how many of those are on modded games? The Tes series has never been lauded for its combat, in fact its generally seen to be successful in spite of it. Especially when you have games like The Witcher to compare it against so clearly. As for me personally, I only go into first person in dungeons when I know my rear is clear and my view is already blocked. But then I also use SkyRe, ASIS, Tk dodge, Tk hitstop, and a slew of others like Immersive Patrols and OBIS. All told I am near 500 mods at this point.

    Even if you use past events to predict future outcomes, it is not logically reconized as truth.  I could predict that many people would use FPV just because they like the challenge and immersion but that doesn't mean I would be correct.

    Of course that prediction would not follow because the playerbase has shown it to be wildly inaccurate. There is a reason why people will change their playstyle and grind rep for 20 hours for a specific reward than spend that same 20 hours running dungeons for something similar. The path of least resistance is a viable trend, with the number actively breaking it being very few. Its the very same reason why in 3 faction games the 2 smaller factions do not team up against the largest, the middle one eats the lower before they in turn get eaten. Its "get mine while I can". And yes, using past outcomes to predict the future is logically recognized as truth, as that is what theory and law is based on. In fact even the very definition of logic is incumbant on it.

    Adjective

    1. Of or according to the rules of logic or formal argument: "a logical impossibility".
    2. Characterized by clear, sound reasoning.
    Synonyms

    rational - logic - reasonable - consistent - tenable

    [mod edit]

  • sapphensapphen Madison, NCPosts: 911Member Common
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by sapphen

    I don't think WoW would be a good example because you can't see your hand/weapons.  I respect you feel it isn't a big deal but to me personally, it makes a huge difference.  57% of players who only use FPV in Skyrim, 88% adding people who use both, those are not a small minority.

    WoW is a much better judge because its a better measurement of the playerbase. None of those polls are even semi close to reasonable because they are not representative of the playerbase.

    What kind of game are you wanting that WoW would be a better measurement of the playerbase than an actual Elder Scrolls game?

     

    Even if you use past events to predict future outcomes, it is not logically reconized as truth.  I could predict that many people would use FPV just because they like the challenge and immersion but that doesn't mean I would be correct.

    Of course that prediction would not follow because the playerbase has shown it to be wildly inaccurate. There is a reason why people will change their playstyle and grind rep for 20 hours for a specific reward than spend that same 20 hours running dungeons for something similar. The path of least resistance is a viable trend, with the number actively breaking it being very few.

    There is no path of least resistence here, it's having about having a slight view advantage, FPV is not even a path.  If your assessment was true then everyone would play Skyrim in third person view.

  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,117Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by sapphen

    I don't think WoW would be a good example because you can't see your hand/weapons.  I respect you feel it isn't a big deal but to me personally, it makes a huge difference.  57% of players who only use FPV in Skyrim, 88% adding people who use both, those are not a small minority.

    WoW is a much better judge because its a better measurement of the playerbase. None of those polls are even semi close to reasonable because they are not representative of the playerbase. Besides which how many of those are on modded games? The Tes series has never been lauded for its combat, in fact its generally seen to be successful in spite of it. Especially when you have games like The Witcher to compare it against so clearly. As for me personally, I only go into first person in dungeons when I know my rear is clear and my view is already blocked. But then I also use SkyRe, ASIS, Tk dodge, Tk hitstop, and a slew of others like Immersive Patrols and OBIS. All told I am near 500 mods at this point.

    Even if you use past events to predict future outcomes, it is not logically reconized as truth.  I could predict that many people would use FPV just because they like the challenge and immersion but that doesn't mean I would be correct.

    Of course that prediction would not follow because the playerbase has shown it to be wildly inaccurate. There is a reason why people will change their playstyle and grind rep for 20 hours for a specific reward than spend that same 20 hours running dungeons for something similar. The path of least resistance is a viable trend, with the number actively breaking it being very few. Its the very same reason why in 3 faction games the 2 smaller factions do not team up against the largest, the middle one eats the lower before they in turn get eaten. Its "get mine while I can". And yes, using past outcomes to predict the future is logically recognized as truth, as that is what theory and law is based on. In fact even the very definition of logic is incumbant on it.

    Adjective

    1. Of or according to the rules of logic or formal argument: "a logical impossibility".
    2. Characterized by clear, sound reasoning.
    Synonyms

    rational - logic - reasonable - consistent - tenable

    Also, if you really want to argue that FOV does not give an advantage maybe you should go have a chat with evolution. Ever wonder why horses have their eyes set on the side of their head instead of forwards facing like other predators?

    That isn't about the path of least resistance.  People are willing to grind rep because it nets you a guaranteed reward for your effort.  Dungeons are subject to the RNG for drops on top of the RNG when competing with group mates for said drops.  There is obviously a greater incentive to do rep grinds as a result.  Now, if devs would get a clue and allow everyone in a group to get a drop when doing dungeon runs, then you'd probably find the playing field a lot more even.  I really don't see how you can define that scenario as the path of least resistance, which implies laziness on the part of the gamers.  How is it lazy to work just as hard doing either rep grinds or dungeon grinds, but one rewards you more often than the other.  That isn't laziness, that's intelligent decision making on the player's part.

    image
  • elohssaelohssa Winchester, NYPosts: 38Member
    Originally posted by sapphen
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by sapphen

    I don't think WoW would be a good example because you can't see your hand/weapons.  I respect you feel it isn't a big deal but to me personally, it makes a huge difference.  57% of players who only use FPV in Skyrim, 88% adding people who use both, those are not a small minority.

    WoW is a much better judge because its a better measurement of the playerbase. None of those polls are even semi close to reasonable because they are not representative of the playerbase.

    What kind of game are you wanting that WoW would be a better measurement of the playerbase than an actual Elder Scrolls game?

     

    Even if you use past events to predict future outcomes, it is not logically reconized as truth.  I could predict that many people would use FPV just because they like the challenge and immersion but that doesn't mean I would be correct.

    Of course that prediction would not follow because the playerbase has shown it to be wildly inaccurate. There is a reason why people will change their playstyle and grind rep for 20 hours for a specific reward than spend that same 20 hours running dungeons for something similar. The path of least resistance is a viable trend, with the number actively breaking it being very few.

    There is no path of least resistence here, it's having about having a slight view advantage, FPV is not even a path.  If your assessment was true then everyone would play Skyrim in third person view.

    WOW = mmo

    ESO = mmo

    Skyrim=/= MMO

     

    The polls I showed earlier have very small sample sizes, so the uncertainty is high, but it shows about half the skyrim playerbase doen't exlusively use FPV.  That means they will almost certainly use 3rd person view when switching to an mmo.  After even more see that its a huge advantage in 3rd person, then even more will follow.  The few hardcore ES fans who insist on 1st person will likely quit in a few months when they run out of solo PvE content, especially considering raids and pvp are extremely unfavorable to this view.

     

    At launch few will play 1st person exlclusively. 

    After a few months, almost no one will be using it.

     

    [mod edit]
  • sapphensapphen Madison, NCPosts: 911Member Common
    Originally posted by elohssa
    Originally posted by sapphen
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by sapphen

    I don't think WoW would be a good example because you can't see your hand/weapons.  I respect you feel it isn't a big deal but to me personally, it makes a huge difference.  57% of players who only use FPV in Skyrim, 88% adding people who use both, those are not a small minority.

    WoW is a much better judge because its a better measurement of the playerbase. None of those polls are even semi close to reasonable because they are not representative of the playerbase.

    What kind of game are you wanting that WoW would be a better measurement of the playerbase than an actual Elder Scrolls game?

    Even if you use past events to predict future outcomes, it is not logically reconized as truth.  I could predict that many people would use FPV just because they like the challenge and immersion but that doesn't mean I would be correct.

    Of course that prediction would not follow because the playerbase has shown it to be wildly inaccurate. There is a reason why people will change their playstyle and grind rep for 20 hours for a specific reward than spend that same 20 hours running dungeons for something similar. The path of least resistance is a viable trend, with the number actively breaking it being very few.

    There is no path of least resistence here, it's having about having a slight view advantage, FPV is not even a path.  If your assessment was true then everyone would play Skyrim in third person view.

    WOW = mmo

    ESO = mmo

    Skyrim=/= MMO

    The polls I showed earlier have very small sample sizes, so the uncertainty is high, but it shows about half the skyrim playerbase doen't exlusively use FPV.  That means they will almost certainly use 3rd person view when switching to an mmo.  After even more see that its a huge advantage in 3rd person, then even more will follow.  The few hardcore ES fans who insist on 1st person will likely quit in a few months when they run out of solo PvE content, especially considering raids and pvp are extremely unfavorable to this view.

    At launch few will play 1st person exlclusively. 

    After a few months, almost no one will be using it.

    I didn't say they would exclusively use FPV, only that they would use it.

    With that said, I'll leave you to your personal predictions.

  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,289Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by sapphen
    Originally posted by elohssa
    Originally posted by sapphen
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by sapphen

    I don't think WoW would be a good example because you can't see your hand/weapons.  I respect you feel it isn't a big deal but to me personally, it makes a huge difference.  57% of players who only use FPV in Skyrim, 88% adding people who use both, those are not a small minority.

    WoW is a much better judge because its a better measurement of the playerbase. None of those polls are even semi close to reasonable because they are not representative of the playerbase.

    What kind of game are you wanting that WoW would be a better measurement of the playerbase than an actual Elder Scrolls game?

    Even if you use past events to predict future outcomes, it is not logically reconized as truth.  I could predict that many people would use FPV just because they like the challenge and immersion but that doesn't mean I would be correct.

    Of course that prediction would not follow because the playerbase has shown it to be wildly inaccurate. There is a reason why people will change their playstyle and grind rep for 20 hours for a specific reward than spend that same 20 hours running dungeons for something similar. The path of least resistance is a viable trend, with the number actively breaking it being very few.

    There is no path of least resistence here, it's having about having a slight view advantage, FPV is not even a path.  If your assessment was true then everyone would play Skyrim in third person view.

    WOW = mmo

    ESO = mmo

    Skyrim=/= MMO

    The polls I showed earlier have very small sample sizes, so the uncertainty is high, but it shows about half the skyrim playerbase doen't exlusively use FPV.  That means they will almost certainly use 3rd person view when switching to an mmo.  After even more see that its a huge advantage in 3rd person, then even more will follow.  The few hardcore ES fans who insist on 1st person will likely quit in a few months when they run out of solo PvE content, especially considering raids and pvp are extremely unfavorable to this view.

    At launch few will play 1st person exlclusively. 

    After a few months, almost no one will be using it.

    I didn't say they would exclusively use FPV, only that they would use it.

    With that said, I'll leave you to your personal predictions.

    Most of the time only use 3rd person view to check out how your toon looks etc, all combat usually takes place in first person view, combat in 3rd person view is universally rubbish imo, so my prediction is that all the successful cyrodil PVP'ers will be using FPV,  with 3rd person view relegated to the odd screenshot for effect, ie. posed.. for those that use the argument that 3rd person view increases your tactical awareness, simply not true, it just helps make up for a lack of it. pretty sure anyone who has ever played games like Planetside (either version) will understand where im coming from here. image

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by sapphen

    What kind of game are you wanting that WoW would be a better measurement of the playerbase than an actual Elder Scrolls game?

     

    Good ones? Whether you detest the route Wow has taken, to say its a bad game would be epically stupid on your part.

    There is no path of least resistence here, it's having about having a slight view advantage, FPV is not even a path.  If your assessment was true then everyone would play Skyrim in third person view.

    Of course there is a path of least resistance, its also called opportunity cost, I described it a couple pages back. And not quite, as Skyrim does not offer a truly 360 fov, the camera is set lower and much more behind the head even when zoomed out. I had to download a new skeleton to fix it as it was super annoying.

    Originally posted by Vorthanion

    That isn't about the path of least resistance.  People are willing to grind rep because it nets you a guaranteed reward for your effort.  Dungeons are subject to the RNG for drops on top of the RNG when competing with group mates for said drops.  There is obviously a greater incentive to do rep grinds as a result.  Now, if devs would get a clue and allow everyone in a group to get a drop when doing dungeon runs, then you'd probably find the playing field a lot more even.  I really don't see how you can define that scenario as the path of least resistance, which implies laziness on the part of the gamers.  How is it lazy to work just as hard doing either rep grinds or dungeon grinds, but one rewards you more often than the other.  That isn't laziness, that's intelligent decision making on the player's part.

    Nope, its the lesser path to meet a specific end. Skipping the generally enjoyable experience of grouping with ones friends to go run a dungeon to instead grind away solo to get the same peice of gear. Thanks for agreeing with me though!

     

    [mod edit]

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