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There are no raids... can you live with that?

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  • observerobserver Houston, TXPosts: 3,013Member Uncommon

    I don't like instanced raids at all.  The requirement of voice chat is a turn off in itself.  I have to admit, that wow does this right with their LFR tool.  It's not challenging, but it at least gets people to access the content, and at the same offers more challenging 10 & 25 man guild content.

    If ESO ever has raids, they might be open-world raids like GW2 has them.  EQ and WoW have them too.  They come with their drawbacks though.

  • GenadiGenadi BrisbanePosts: 110Member
    Originally posted by stevebombsquad

    Actually the most social games are sandbox type games. Look at preNGE SWG. They had all kinds of social tools. People were left to their own devices to play the way they wanted. They were just given the tools. You had everything from non-combat classes to housing. People made towns, voted for mayors, and setup shops. Your class was kind of like a career. Some people would hunt or harvest and do nothing else. Everyone would interact because of the economy required it. It was very social. Much more so than WoW or GW2 where you are lucky if someone even says a word.

     

     

    Someone gets it ^^^ Thank you stevebomb for restoring a little faith in the mmorpg community that has slowly been turning into the Blizzard forum last few years.

  • Caliburn101Caliburn101 LondonPosts: 636Member
    Originally posted by Dogblaster
    Originally posted by Caliburn101
    Originally posted by morbidlymystic
    Originally posted by Caliburn101

    I have hardcore raided and played games without it.

    The thing I don't like about raids is the leetism and the fact thet they can be set up to effectively allow only a small % of the playerbase to do them.

    The guild-focus and sense of acheivement from challenging raids is a good game element though - one subsequently usually ruined by the need to grind farm-status bosses, but fun whilst you are learning the ropes.

    I think raids have a place and should be put in with the following caveats;

    1. The gear they give is the best in game - but is matched by solo, small group and craftable routes

    2. Gear and other rewards come in a medium term timeframe so as not to require endless farming

    I mean why not have the way in which raiding works change to get rid of the bad and keep most of the good?

    It really shouldn't be about either/or...

    I agree with this.  I don't think raids need to be so exclusive though.  Different difficulty tiers can easily solve that problem. However, the issue that arises is the casual players demand to be able to do the higher difficulties, even if they aren't really good enough to do it.   Maybe alternate routes to gear will help, but from my experience players will want to do both routes and we are in the same shit storm again.

    A common problem - but with a little imagination, easily dealt with.

    Have a standard and hardmode for each raid.

    There are a succession of bosses or fights whatever which gradually increase in difficulty, but above what might be seen as puggable, harder alternative modes of takedown appear - which you can choose to follow or not on a case by case basis.

    Those that follow the easier standard route with 'help' from the game (or simply less adds, HP or whatever for the bosses et al) get a quarter of the gear tokens the one who opt for the hard mode get.

    Also -hardmode takedowns give tabards or skins or whatever - soft rewards which allow visual differentiation without the gear etc. being different power-wise.

    This has various advantages;

    1. From pugs to hardcore raiders - no-one is denied the content

    2. With the right starting diffculty and ramp-up of challenge, every raid of any ability get some action and some satisfaction for their time and effort.

    3. The challenge profile is customisable by the raid leader during the raid - so it's a choice as to whether on any particular raid night they want to go for hardmode, and on which bosses etc.

    4. Everyone eventually ends up withe the same rewards power-wise - the puggers don't get frozen out and the hardcore raiders get theirs quicker and with visual differentiation or guild reward fluff - for the bragging rights.

    Thing I love in mmorpgs is farm and grind. So yea, maybe for you not but many loves it :)

    And now .. tell me, why should HC players/elitist who plays 10+ hours a day be on equal footing/have same gear as casual/avarage players? Do we live in communism? hmm

     

    WildStar got this right, no more dumping down content so everyone can get into it. You cant beat it you cant beat it. End

     

    If those casuals, bad players or whatever you want to call them arent good enought, dont have enought time, or whatever reason they have to not raid or not to be able to beat the bosses. That is their problem.

    Strong wins, weak lose .. I dont drive Bentley and I dont make millions per month as those rich people do .. Do I complain? Ofcourse not. Even if someone did .. No one would ever care. There is no such thing as same footing ...

    So tell me again, why should everyone be on same footing in mmorpg? Those who plays 15 hours a day and those who plays 2 hours a day? No one is denied content (except f2p games maybe), everyone can get and beat the hardest bosses if they put enought effort into it, if they dont (for whatever reasons.. kids, time, work, lazyness, ...) thats their problem and they should not be able to just do some easy mode of it ... just lol, this is why I left wow, gw2, etc. Everyone cares about noobs and casuals too much.

     

    I didn't say people should be on the same footing - read it again.

    The guy with the Bentley PAYS MORE - less hardcore players pay the same as 24/7 players. It's financial suicide for a game to be built around the hardcore minority.

    I am proposing a game which caters for both types of players - with the hardcore getting stuff much sooner and casuals much later. With visual differentiation in there too - that's all the advantage a compromise on this issue is capable of delivering.

    I would never describe people who play mst f their waking hours as 'strong' - and casuals are the majority of customers with generally more money due to having more involved jobs etc. It's plain crazy for a comany selling smethng to ignore them.

    Bad players, casuals with little time etc. will still get to raid if thy can organise it, but won't face the hardest challenges and will progress slower - just what is wrong with this?

    It is worlds better than people leaving a game frustrated because of gated content they can't even see except on Youtube...

  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,121Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nerovipus32
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by nerovipus32
    Originally posted by Quorina
    Originally posted by nerovipus32
    Originally posted by Quorina

    Since people are talking about WoW, I would not say that the majority of players raid. That is a complete fallacy. I guess on some servers like Illidan or Stormrage a lot of people raid but on my old server, Moon Guard, it was estimated that only about 4% of people were seeing raid content, IF that. It was a RP server, true, but most people didn't even RP either. It was also the second most populated sever after Illidan. Sorry to inform you, but raids are not the driving force behind WoW's popularity, but its casual pve content. Achievements, dungeons, LFR, mount collecting, pet collecting, scenarios, etc. I am not saying you are willfully ignorant, but you are still wrong. I am willing to bet you play/played on a very heavily raid centric server.

     

    Personally I've raided in WoW since Vanilla up to Mists of Pandaria (worst expansion EVER), when I quit the game.  ESO doesn't have to have raid content to get me to play, as long as it has other PvE content to enjoy. If it is PvP centric you can forget it. That's one of the things that made me quit playing GW2. I am not against having PvP content, but I do not play heavy PvP games like I used to. I am 32 and simply do not have the twitch reflexes that I used to have. I will still enjoy PvP content on a casual basis, though.

     

    I DO agree with other posters though, that raids should NOT have drastically better gear than other activites if they were in the game. Early Cata, for example, dungeons were extremely difficult to learn and master. So were raids, but they were about equally difficult compared to the dungeons. Yet the dungeons granted really crappy blue gear while the raid gear was unequivically better. Drastically better. I didn't see how this was fair, and I was a raider.

     

    A lot (but not ALL) of raiders are extremely elitist and like to think they are special snowflakes. So many of them think that ALL purple gear is raid gear that should be gated behind raids only. "Why do you need raid gear if you don't raid?" was extremely common among the mouth-breathing elitists. Hated it.

     

    just my two cents

    you're 32 not 64 get a grip man. gw2 is more pve focused than pvp, the reason i left gw2 was because the wvw was terrible.

    People start losing their twitch reflexes in their late 20s, early 30s. It's just not the same as when I was a teen or in my early 20s. I know I'm not 64. where it will be a lot worse :P

    I played GW2 for a couple of weeks when it released and it was definitely more PvP centric than otherwise. The major thing to do back then when hitting 80 was WvWvW. That might've changed since I last played, but the bad impression was already there.

    Really? Bernard Hopkins just won a world boxing title at 48. I think your reflexes will be ok for gaming for sometime yet.

    Citing exceptions to the rule doesn't further your argument.  I stopped playing twitch games back in my late 20's.   Partly because I was tired of them and wanted to try something new, RPGs and partly because I couldn't react to things like I used to as a teenager.  Now in my mid 40's, it is even more exagerated and twitch combat is even more frustrating and annoying than ever.

     

    I believe that if Zenimax wants to stick with their current design philosophy, which is first and foremost to make an Elder Scrolls game that appeals to Elder Scrolls gamers, then that would mean placing an emphasis on game mechanics other than raiding and it would appear that their intent is to replace raiding with RvR content.  Whatever they end up doing, they have already stated that many different paths of progression are included in the game and have verified that whether you group, solo, craft or PvP, you will be able to attain equitable loot progression from any of these paths.  So, even if they do decide to go down the raiding path, raiders may not like it anyway as they will be forced to share the uber loot.

    My point is if a 48 year old man can box at a world class level, i'm sure you being 32 will be able to play twitched based video games for awhile yet. It's all in the mind anyway, it's not like your hands move independently of your brain.

    One, you are assuming people age the same way.  Two, you are assuming people's tastes remain the same as they age.

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  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,121Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by Genadi

    Hard content demands that you group together and form thos social aspects.  Easy content allows you to be anti-social and play by yourself.

     

    That is such a ridiculous statement and so incorrect in so many ways. If you don't see how it's not my place to explain, I would only suggest play some more mmorpg's and do your homework before you post such dribble.

    What? Teamwork=socialization. Last I checked easy content does not promote it, and infact is often worse off with teamwork, for a variety of reasons.

    No, it's the fact that you guys think that solo / casual gaming is the antithesis of socializing and that is incredibly ignorant.

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  • elohssaelohssa Winchester, NYPosts: 38Member
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by Genadi

    Hard content demands that you group together and form thos social aspects.  Easy content allows you to be anti-social and play by yourself.

     

    That is such a ridiculous statement and so incorrect in so many ways. If you don't see how it's not my place to explain, I would only suggest play some more mmorpg's and do your homework before you post such dribble.

    What? Teamwork=socialization. Last I checked easy content does not promote it, and infact is often worse off with teamwork, for a variety of reasons.

    No, it's the fact that you guys think that solo / casual gaming is the antithesis of socializing and that is incredibly ignorant.

     

    No its 100% fact.  You aren't socializing by yourself, duh.  Faceroll dungeons never need any sort of communication, not even chat FFS.  Nevemind REAL communication like on voice communication programs.   Everyone you play with are strangers, and forgotten with 5 seconds after leaving the group.

     

    Anyone who thinks otherwise should watch a fraps of LFR in WOW prior to the loot fix.   It was like watching starved cage beast fight over meat. 

  • elohssaelohssa Winchester, NYPosts: 38Member
    Originally posted by Caliburn10

    I didn't say people should be on the same footing - read it again.

    The guy with the Bentley PAYS MORE - less hardcore players pay the same as 24/7 players. It's financial suicide for a game to be built around the hardcore minority.

    I am proposing a game which caters for both types of players - with the hardcore getting stuff much sooner and casuals much later. With visual differentiation in there too - that's all the advantage a compromise on this issue is capable of delivering.

    I would never describe people who play mst f their waking hours as 'strong' - and casuals are the majority of customers with generally more money due to having more involved jobs etc. It's plain crazy for a comany selling smethng to ignore them.

    Bad players, casuals with little time etc. will still get to raid if thy can organise it, but won't face the hardest challenges and will progress slower - just what is wrong with this?

    It is worlds better than people leaving a game frustrated because of gated content they can't even see except on Youtube...

     

    Its the perfect in game system.  The casuals would never go for it though because they are at their core entitilist.  They would rather see this game devolve into just another obscure mmo than to submit that time, effort, and group coordination should yield more results than farming ore. 

     

    They would like nothing better than just another wow clone permalocked on mickey mouse mode, and no real end game to speak of.

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,594Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by elohssa
    Originally posted by Caliburn10

    I didn't say people should be on the same footing - read it again.

    The guy with the Bentley PAYS MORE - less hardcore players pay the same as 24/7 players. It's financial suicide for a game to be built around the hardcore minority.

    I am proposing a game which caters for both types of players - with the hardcore getting stuff much sooner and casuals much later. With visual differentiation in there too - that's all the advantage a compromise on this issue is capable of delivering.

    I would never describe people who play mst f their waking hours as 'strong' - and casuals are the majority of customers with generally more money due to having more involved jobs etc. It's plain crazy for a comany selling smethng to ignore them.

    Bad players, casuals with little time etc. will still get to raid if thy can organise it, but won't face the hardest challenges and will progress slower - just what is wrong with this?

    It is worlds better than people leaving a game frustrated because of gated content they can't even see except on Youtube...

     

    Its the perfect in game system.  The casuals would never go for it though because they are at their core entitilist.  They would rather see this game devolve into just another obscure mmo than to submit that time, effort, and group coordination should yield more results than farming ore. 

     

    They would like nothing better than just another wow clone permalocked on mickey mouse mode, and no real end game to speak of.

    Thats a rather broad brush you are painting with there... I could just as well say that raiders are at their core, control freaks, who have tied their self worth into achievements in a video game... Neither of course, would be the truth.  Some so called "casuals" are suffering from a serious entitlement complex. Just as some raiders, are total control freak, nut cases.

    But I'd say that many of both groups are just looking for entertainment, not a second job.  But entertainment is different things to different people.   I fell off of the raiding band wagon years ago. I lack the patience and extended focus required for it.  I also gave up on heroics.  Which means that I tend to do the normal dungeons a few times (to see the content) and then go play something else.

    The new scenarios are one of my favorite parts of 5.2.  They are actually fun to me, and the reward box allows me to at least partially gear up my characters.  Which gets them ready for the next expansion, when ever that comes out.  Then the gear grind starts all over again.  But thats the nature of these games.

     

  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,121Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by elohssa
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by Genadi

    Hard content demands that you group together and form thos social aspects.  Easy content allows you to be anti-social and play by yourself.

     

    That is such a ridiculous statement and so incorrect in so many ways. If you don't see how it's not my place to explain, I would only suggest play some more mmorpg's and do your homework before you post such dribble.

    What? Teamwork=socialization. Last I checked easy content does not promote it, and infact is often worse off with teamwork, for a variety of reasons.

    No, it's the fact that you guys think that solo / casual gaming is the antithesis of socializing and that is incredibly ignorant.

     

    No its 100% fact.  You aren't socializing by yourself, duh.  Faceroll dungeons never need any sort of communication, not even chat FFS.  Nevemind REAL communication like on voice communication programs.   Everyone you play with are strangers, and forgotten with 5 seconds after leaving the group.

     

    Anyone who thinks otherwise should watch a fraps of LFR in WOW prior to the loot fix.   It was like watching starved cage beast fight over meat. 

    Maybe you don't and you should look into that, but when I solo, I am constantly chatting and running into people and interacting with them via chat or run by buffs and heals or temporarily helping with combat.  There's the whole crafting dynamic that is solo oriented, yet completely social dependent.  If anything is killing social aspects of a game, it's the switch to fast paced action combat, which makes it physically impossible to communicate via keyboard while adventuring solo or grouped.

     

    By the way, you have to show some real proof before you start spouting stuff like 100% fact.  It's one thing to say something is likely to happen as a result of something else and it's quite another to jump on your soap box and screaming "Facts" at the top of your voice.

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  • KaosProphetKaosProphet Edmonton, ABPosts: 379Member
    Originally posted by kidas52
    So you want another purely PvP focused game to last 6 months and fail again??  How does other people being able to raid and not ever PvPing in their entire game life affect you?

    I'd rather a fun game that only lasts 6 months, than a dull-as-snot game that lasts 10 years.

    And I'd like to believe raiding content doesn't have negative affects on the rest of the game, but precedent hasn't been kind to that notion. 

  • tintilinictintilinic aPosts: 283Member
    Originally posted by KaosProphet
    Originally posted by kidas52
    So you want another purely PvP focused game to last 6 months and fail again??  How does other people being able to raid and not ever PvPing in their entire game life affect you?

    I'd rather a fun game that only lasts 6 months, than a dull-as-snot game that lasts 10 years.

    And I'd like to believe raiding content doesn't have negative affects on the rest of the game, but precedent hasn't been kind to that notion. 

    Yah, thats why most people are against raiding, but its so ironic that "raiders" are so selfish and only thing i see from them is "I" "me", only concerned about themselves and nobody else that play the game or rest of the game.

  • elohssaelohssa Winchester, NYPosts: 38Member
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by elohssa
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by Genadi

    Hard content demands that you group together and form thos social aspects.  Easy content allows you to be anti-social and play by yourself.

     

    That is such a ridiculous statement and so incorrect in so many ways. If you don't see how it's not my place to explain, I would only suggest play some more mmorpg's and do your homework before you post such dribble.

    What? Teamwork=socialization. Last I checked easy content does not promote it, and infact is often worse off with teamwork, for a variety of reasons.

    No, it's the fact that you guys think that solo / casual gaming is the antithesis of socializing and that is incredibly ignorant.

     

    No its 100% fact.  You aren't socializing by yourself, duh.  Faceroll dungeons never need any sort of communication, not even chat FFS.  Nevemind REAL communication like on voice communication programs.   Everyone you play with are strangers, and forgotten with 5 seconds after leaving the group.

     

    Anyone who thinks otherwise should watch a fraps of LFR in WOW prior to the loot fix.   It was like watching starved cage beast fight over meat. 

    Maybe you don't and you should look into that, but when I solo, I am constantly chatting and running into people and interacting with them via chat or run by buffs and heals or temporarily helping with combat.  There's the whole crafting dynamic that is solo oriented, yet completely social dependent.  If anything is killing social aspects of a game, it's the switch to fast paced action combat, which makes it physically impossible to communicate via keyboard while adventuring solo or grouped.

     

    By the way, you have to show some real proof before you start spouting stuff like 100% fact.  It's one thing to say something is likely to happen as a result of something else and it's quite another to jump on your soap box and screaming "Facts" at the top of your voice.

     

    That is not socializing...  I actually feel bad for you after reading that...

  • elohssaelohssa Winchester, NYPosts: 38Member
    Originally posted by tintilinic
    Originally posted by KaosProphet
    Originally posted by kidas52
    So you want another purely PvP focused game to last 6 months and fail again??  How does other people being able to raid and not ever PvPing in their entire game life affect you?

    I'd rather a fun game that only lasts 6 months, than a dull-as-snot game that lasts 10 years.

    And I'd like to believe raiding content doesn't have negative affects on the rest of the game, but precedent hasn't been kind to that notion. 

    Yah, thats why most people are against raiding, but its so ironic that "raiders" are so selfish and only thing i see from them is "I" "me", only concerned about themselves and nobody else that play the game or rest of the game.

    Raiding is crucial for making new content for you too...  If its not in the game, it can't last.   You won't get new content, if they dont get money. 

     

    The casuals have ruined every single potential MMO since WoW.   You make up the masses, and the devs cater to you and it always ruins the game.  You end up with some easy mickey mouse wow knockoff that isn't even worth more than a couple months of your time. 

  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,121Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by elohssa
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by elohssa
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by Genadi

    Hard content demands that you group together and form thos social aspects.  Easy content allows you to be anti-social and play by yourself.

     

    That is such a ridiculous statement and so incorrect in so many ways. If you don't see how it's not my place to explain, I would only suggest play some more mmorpg's and do your homework before you post such dribble.

    What? Teamwork=socialization. Last I checked easy content does not promote it, and infact is often worse off with teamwork, for a variety of reasons.

    No, it's the fact that you guys think that solo / casual gaming is the antithesis of socializing and that is incredibly ignorant.

     

    No its 100% fact.  You aren't socializing by yourself, duh.  Faceroll dungeons never need any sort of communication, not even chat FFS.  Nevemind REAL communication like on voice communication programs.   Everyone you play with are strangers, and forgotten with 5 seconds after leaving the group.

     

    Anyone who thinks otherwise should watch a fraps of LFR in WOW prior to the loot fix.   It was like watching starved cage beast fight over meat. 

    Maybe you don't and you should look into that, but when I solo, I am constantly chatting and running into people and interacting with them via chat or run by buffs and heals or temporarily helping with combat.  There's the whole crafting dynamic that is solo oriented, yet completely social dependent.  If anything is killing social aspects of a game, it's the switch to fast paced action combat, which makes it physically impossible to communicate via keyboard while adventuring solo or grouped.

     

    By the way, you have to show some real proof before you start spouting stuff like 100% fact.  It's one thing to say something is likely to happen as a result of something else and it's quite another to jump on your soap box and screaming "Facts" at the top of your voice.

     

    That is not socializing...  I actually feel bad for you after reading that...

    No, I feel sorry for you for having such a narrow and jaded view on what is and is not socializing.

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  • elohssaelohssa Winchester, NYPosts: 38Member

    Buffing random peple =/= socializing at any level

    Crafting is solo =/= socializing at any level

    Helping random peple with solo content =/= socializing at any level

    Random chat in general to random people  is barely socializing.  This is little better than buying things on the AH.  Thats how low the bar you just set is.  If this is the only socializing you experience in an mmo, then you are a loner.

     

    How in the heck is fast paced combat stopping socilizaing?  You can always stop between mobs and chat if you want. Nothing is stopping that.  Unless you want to stop and chat in the middle of a fight, in which case you are asking them to make the game so stupidly easy that half the people can chat instead of play the game.

     

    If this is your vision of an MMO, then its honestly quite pathetic, and a sure fired recipe for failure.

     

     

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,594Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by elohssa

    Buffing random peple =/= socializing at any level

    Crafting is solo =/= socializing at any level

    Helping random peple with solo content =/= socializing at any level

    Random chat in general to random people  is barely socializing.  This is little better than buying things on the AH.  Thats how low the bar you just set is.  If this is the only socializing you experience in an mmo, then you are a loner.

     

    How in the heck is fast paced combat stopping socilizaing?  You can always stop between mobs and chat if you want. Nothing is stopping that.  Unless you want to stop and chat in the middle of a fight, in which case you are asking them to make the game so stupidly easy that half the people can chat instead of play the game.

     

    If this is your vision of an MMO, then its honestly quite pathetic, and a sure fired recipe for failure.

     

     

    Chat between mobs?? You are new to modern MMO's aren't you? ^^  No time to stop! Go! Go! Go!... ^^  <face palm>

    The social aspect has to my experience been rather limited for years now.  But thats ok, I'm not in these games for social interactions. Thats what my family and RL friends are for.  I especially dislike vent, because so few people have any concept of communications discipline.  Nor much discipline in general, for that matter.

  • elohssaelohssa Winchester, NYPosts: 38Member
    Originally posted by Wraithone
    Originally posted by elohssa

    Buffing random peple =/= socializing at any level

    Crafting is solo =/= socializing at any level

    Helping random peple with solo content =/= socializing at any level

    Random chat in general to random people  is barely socializing.  This is little better than buying things on the AH.  Thats how low the bar you just set is.  If this is the only socializing you experience in an mmo, then you are a loner.

     

    How in the heck is fast paced combat stopping socilizaing?  You can always stop between mobs and chat if you want. Nothing is stopping that.  Unless you want to stop and chat in the middle of a fight, in which case you are asking them to make the game so stupidly easy that half the people can chat instead of play the game.

     

    If this is your vision of an MMO, then its honestly quite pathetic, and a sure fired recipe for failure.

     

     

    Chat between mobs?? You are new to modern MMO's aren't you? ^^  No time to stop! Go! Go! Go!... ^^ 

    The social aspect has to my experience been rather limited for years now.  But thats ok, I'm not in these games for social interactions. Thats what my family and RL friends are for.  I especially dislike vent, because so few people have any concept of communications discipline.  Nor much discipline in general, for that matter.

     

    New to modern MMOs?  If they are modern, then by definition everyone is new to them.... So yah, what does this mean?

     

    What is it you guys want?  A fight so easy you can have tea and crumpets in the middle, as you talk about the weather in chat?  Maybe pretend you are troll, and do some lame ass role playing?

     

    No social spects in recent mmos.  Well of course there isn't, you are a casual, and you play casual mmos.  Casual mmos don't require co-op as they are faceroll easy, thus you aren't required to actually socialize with other players.  Challenging encounters require you to talk to other players.

     

    Communication discipline?!  What i s that?  If you get in vent with douchebags, then you leave.  Its that simple.  FInd a new mature guild. 

  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,121Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by elohssa

    Buffing random peple =/= socializing at any level

    Crafting is solo =/= socializing at any level

    Helping random peple with solo content =/= socializing at any level

    Random chat in general to random people  is barely socializing.  This is little better than buying things on the AH.  Thats how low the bar you just set is.  If this is the only socializing you experience in an mmo, then you are a loner.

     

    How in the heck is fast paced combat stopping socilizaing?  You can always stop between mobs and chat if you want. Nothing is stopping that.  Unless you want to stop and chat in the middle of a fight, in which case you are asking them to make the game so stupidly easy that half the people can chat instead of play the game.

     

    If this is your vision of an MMO, then its honestly quite pathetic, and a sure fired recipe for failure.

     

     

    You are clueless and it is obviously pointless to argue with you any further.  If you cannot or will not see that interacting with people in an online game in a positive manner is a fulfillment of the social contract, then nothing is going to persuade or convince you.

    image
  • elohssaelohssa Winchester, NYPosts: 38Member
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by elohssa

    Buffing random peple =/= socializing at any level

    Crafting is solo =/= socializing at any level

    Helping random peple with solo content =/= socializing at any level

    Random chat in general to random people  is barely socializing.  This is little better than buying things on the AH.  Thats how low the bar you just set is.  If this is the only socializing you experience in an mmo, then you are a loner.

     

    How in the heck is fast paced combat stopping socilizaing?  You can always stop between mobs and chat if you want. Nothing is stopping that.  Unless you want to stop and chat in the middle of a fight, in which case you are asking them to make the game so stupidly easy that half the people can chat instead of play the game.

     

    If this is your vision of an MMO, then its honestly quite pathetic, and a sure fired recipe for failure.

     

     

    You are clueless and it is obviously pointless to argue with you any further.  If you cannot or will not see that interacting with people in an online game in a positive manner is a fulfillment of the social contract, then nothing is going to persuade or convince you.

     

    I can chat in D3, but it doesn't make it an MMO or give the same MMO experience.  Chatting with strangers is socializing, but its the absolute bare minimum interaction possible.

  • observerobserver Houston, TXPosts: 3,013Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by Iselin

    No, no instanced raids but they have talked in several interviews about the "Adventure PVE zones" that will have solo, group and "raid-sized group" content.

    It's funny how "instance" is a dirty word around here... except when talking about raids apparently. What the adventure zones sound like to me is a retro PVE kind of place that will play like the early MMOs before the instanced raid formulas were invented.

    I'm looking forward to that.

    Except those retro pve areas are garbage in pretty much every game. Supposedly Daoc was the last one to "do it right" but even that I honestly doubt.

    DAoC did it pre-WOW. I remember the first one in Albion... a dragon raid that would pop-up every few hours...word would go out...people would come running... the FPS dropped to 1 frame every 5 seconds... not sure how right it was image

    GW2 gave it a good shot too with several end-of-chain large group events in all zones. Some are fun, otherrs not so much. "Garbage" is a highly-biased subjective opinion... I would say "hit and miss."

    I'm curious to see how Zmax does it.

    Why not just call them open-world raids?  That's what they are. EQ1 and  EQ2 has them.  WoW has them.  GW2 has them.  etc.  And yeah, it gets annoying when people think "instances" are dirty.  Instanced dungeons were created because of all the pitfalls of open-world content, such as; griefing, mob-tagging, lag, trains, etc.

  • tintilinictintilinic aPosts: 283Member
    Originally posted by elohssa
    Originally posted by tintilinic
    Originally posted by KaosProphet
    Originally posted by kidas52
    So you want another purely PvP focused game to last 6 months and fail again??  How does other people being able to raid and not ever PvPing in their entire game life affect you?

    I'd rather a fun game that only lasts 6 months, than a dull-as-snot game that lasts 10 years.

    And I'd like to believe raiding content doesn't have negative affects on the rest of the game, but precedent hasn't been kind to that notion. 

    Yah, thats why most people are against raiding, but its so ironic that "raiders" are so selfish and only thing i see from them is "I" "me", only concerned about themselves and nobody else that play the game or rest of the game.

    Raiding is crucial for making new content for you too...  If its not in the game, it can't last.   You won't get new content, if they dont get money. 

     

    The casuals have ruined every single potential MMO since WoW.   You make up the masses, and the devs cater to you and it always ruins the game.  You end up with some easy mickey mouse wow knockoff that isn't even worth more than a couple months of your time. 

    Oh, thats the whole reason why ultra hardcore MMOs are doing so good. I mean all top MMOs are nothing but ultra hardcore.

    Give us a break :)

    There are games that cater to your needs. Those are ultra niche games. You know why are those ultra niche? Because thats how many people want to play them.

  • KeushpuppyKeushpuppy Wenatchee, WAPosts: 118Member Uncommon
    As a non raider yes very much so.
  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by observer
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by Iselin

    No, no instanced raids but they have talked in several interviews about the "Adventure PVE zones" that will have solo, group and "raid-sized group" content.

    It's funny how "instance" is a dirty word around here... except when talking about raids apparently. What the adventure zones sound like to me is a retro PVE kind of place that will play like the early MMOs before the instanced raid formulas were invented.

    I'm looking forward to that.

    Except those retro pve areas are garbage in pretty much every game. Supposedly Daoc was the last one to "do it right" but even that I honestly doubt.

    DAoC did it pre-WOW. I remember the first one in Albion... a dragon raid that would pop-up every few hours...word would go out...people would come running... the FPS dropped to 1 frame every 5 seconds... not sure how right it was image

    GW2 gave it a good shot too with several end-of-chain large group events in all zones. Some are fun, otherrs not so much. "Garbage" is a highly-biased subjective opinion... I would say "hit and miss."

    I'm curious to see how Zmax does it.

    Why not just call them open-world raids?  That's what they are. EQ1 and  EQ2 has them.  WoW has them.  GW2 has them.  etc.  And yeah, it gets annoying when people think "instances" are dirty.  Instanced dungeons were created because of all the pitfalls of open-world content, such as; griefing, mob-tagging, lag, trains, etc.

    Uh, no. Instances were created by bad designers would needed a bandaid for their bad game.

    No instances were needed in DAoC. And griefing? Its just as likely to happen in the open world, but people don't scream to instance the entire game, do they? And lag was NEVER a reason for instancing.

    Instancing was the beginning of the end for the MMO genre. It has never once been necessary in a game that was designed properly.

  • tintilinictintilinic aPosts: 283Member
    Originally posted by elohssa
    Originally posted by Wraithone
    Originally posted by elohssa

    Buffing random peple =/= socializing at any level

    Crafting is solo =/= socializing at any level

    Helping random peple with solo content =/= socializing at any level

    Random chat in general to random people  is barely socializing.  This is little better than buying things on the AH.  Thats how low the bar you just set is.  If this is the only socializing you experience in an mmo, then you are a loner.

     

    How in the heck is fast paced combat stopping socilizaing?  You can always stop between mobs and chat if you want. Nothing is stopping that.  Unless you want to stop and chat in the middle of a fight, in which case you are asking them to make the game so stupidly easy that half the people can chat instead of play the game.

     

    If this is your vision of an MMO, then its honestly quite pathetic, and a sure fired recipe for failure.

     

     

    Chat between mobs?? You are new to modern MMO's aren't you? ^^  No time to stop! Go! Go! Go!... ^^ 

    The social aspect has to my experience been rather limited for years now.  But thats ok, I'm not in these games for social interactions. Thats what my family and RL friends are for.  I especially dislike vent, because so few people have any concept of communications discipline.  Nor much discipline in general, for that matter.

     

    New to modern MMOs?  If they are modern, then by definition everyone is new to them.... So yah, what does this mean?

     

    What is it you guys want?  A fight so easy you can have tea and crumpets in the middle, as you talk about the weather in chat?  Maybe pretend you are troll, and do some lame ass role playing?

     

    No social spects in recent mmos.  Well of course there isn't, you are a casual, and you play casual mmos.  Casual mmos don't require co-op as they are faceroll easy, thus you aren't required to actually socialize with other players.  Challenging encounters require you to talk to other players.

     

    Communication discipline?!  What i s that?  If you get in vent with douchebags, then you leave.  Its that simple.  FInd a new mature guild. 

    see, thats where you fail completely: you cannot discern what is "social" and what is "anti-social"

    theres no such thing as "forced socializing". Theres already a term for that: anti-social. Its the most asburd concept people like you bring up all the time.

    Bringing old concepts back to life will not happen. Why? because those died for a reason.

    You know why all WoW clones fail? They bring nothing new in the core to the table. Staleness kills them, not absence of dead concepts (those would actually only speed up the process)

    Theres no AAA MMO that will cater to you. The sooner you make peace with that, the sooner your games of choice will be more in line with your needs.

  • VembumeesVembumees WildStarPosts: 79Member
    Originally posted by tintilinic
    Originally posted by elohssa
    Originally posted by Wraithone
    Originally posted by elohssa

    Buffing random peple =/= socializing at any level

    Crafting is solo =/= socializing at any level

    Helping random peple with solo content =/= socializing at any level

    Random chat in general to random people  is barely socializing.  This is little better than buying things on the AH.  Thats how low the bar you just set is.  If this is the only socializing you experience in an mmo, then you are a loner.

     

    How in the heck is fast paced combat stopping socilizaing?  You can always stop between mobs and chat if you want. Nothing is stopping that.  Unless you want to stop and chat in the middle of a fight, in which case you are asking them to make the game so stupidly easy that half the people can chat instead of play the game.

     

    If this is your vision of an MMO, then its honestly quite pathetic, and a sure fired recipe for failure.

     

     

    Chat between mobs?? You are new to modern MMO's aren't you? ^^  No time to stop! Go! Go! Go!... ^^ 

    The social aspect has to my experience been rather limited for years now.  But thats ok, I'm not in these games for social interactions. Thats what my family and RL friends are for.  I especially dislike vent, because so few people have any concept of communications discipline.  Nor much discipline in general, for that matter.

     

    New to modern MMOs?  If they are modern, then by definition everyone is new to them.... So yah, what does this mean?

     

    What is it you guys want?  A fight so easy you can have tea and crumpets in the middle, as you talk about the weather in chat?  Maybe pretend you are troll, and do some lame ass role playing?

     

    No social spects in recent mmos.  Well of course there isn't, you are a casual, and you play casual mmos.  Casual mmos don't require co-op as they are faceroll easy, thus you aren't required to actually socialize with other players.  Challenging encounters require you to talk to other players.

     

    Communication discipline?!  What i s that?  If you get in vent with douchebags, then you leave.  Its that simple.  FInd a new mature guild. 

    see, thats where you fail completely: you cannot discern what is "social" and what is "anti-social"

    theres no such thing as "forced socializing". Theres already a term for that: anti-social. Its the most asburd concept people like you bring up all the time.

    Bringing old concepts back to life will not happen. Why? because those died for a reason.

    You know why all WoW clones fail? They bring nothing new in the core to the table. Staleness kills them, not absence of dead concepts (those would actually only speed up the process)

    Theres no AAA MMO that will cater to you. The sooner you make peace with that, the sooner your games of choice will be more in line with your needs.

    I thought all the WoWclones failed and the reason I didn't play them longer than a month was because they tried to clone WoW, but didn't deliver even half of it. I mean, all have focused on stealing the WoW-casuals (who don't have a need to quit it) instead of the tens of millions who used to play wow for years and are looking for a similar game, which is quite a large percent in those million account you see at every wowclone release. But I guess you are the expert.

    Most of the people who jump on these wowclones in every few months don't want to play mmorpg's that only offer barely a month of gameplay total, which is what they always end up getting from those pro AAA's in the last 5 years. And that's what they will probably end up getting from ESO.

    Originally posted by tintilinic
    Originally posted by elohssa
    Originally posted by tintilinic
    Originally posted by KaosProphet
    Originally posted by kidas52
    So you want another purely PvP focused game to last 6 months and fail again??  How does other people being able to raid and not ever PvPing in their entire game life affect you?

    I'd rather a fun game that only lasts 6 months, than a dull-as-snot game that lasts 10 years.

    And I'd like to believe raiding content doesn't have negative affects on the rest of the game, but precedent hasn't been kind to that notion. 

    Yah, thats why most people are against raiding, but its so ironic that "raiders" are so selfish and only thing i see from them is "I" "me", only concerned about themselves and nobody else that play the game or rest of the game.

    Raiding is crucial for making new content for you too...  If its not in the game, it can't last.   You won't get new content, if they dont get money. 

     

    The casuals have ruined every single potential MMO since WoW.   You make up the masses, and the devs cater to you and it always ruins the game.  You end up with some easy mickey mouse wow knockoff that isn't even worth more than a couple months of your time. 

    Oh, thats the whole reason why ultra hardcore MMOs are doing so good. I mean all top MMOs are nothing but ultra hardcore.

    Give us a break :)

    There are games that cater to your needs. Those are ultra niche games. You know why are those ultra niche? Because thats how many people want to play them.

    There aren't any hardcore mmorpg's on the market that aren't 10+ years old titles and which aren't below the AAA standards (eve is the only one and that one is doing damn well, but I wouldn't really even call eve hardcore, it's only hardcore on the time requirement, nothing else). Not because there isn't a market for them, but because publishers don't want to take risks with their millions of dollars when they can simply milk the average player crowd, rememer that if you make a hardcore game for only hardcore players and you make it unappealing to the hardcore, then who the hell is going to buy your product, most of the failure projects just attempt to appeal to everyone, but fail to do so resulting them to appeal to nobody - i mean a beef,chocolate,majonaise,milk,cherry,vodka mixed coctail is just dung. If a quality hardcore mmorpg with permadeath would come out that would actually deliver, it could be as large as WoW without any doubt, because there are hundreds of millions of people out there already who have played or would play mmorpg's, but there just isn't enough choice. Like for instance, mmorpg is my favourite game and WoW was my favourite mmorpg, but I would rather play no mmorpg's at all for the next 20 years than play something that's under my standards or requirements. I won't ever even set my foot in the trashbin that it is now.

    Like WoW for instance changes its entire wow playerbase with pretty much each expansion with a new one. There is a market for those ~10 million people (random number) who quit wow every 2 years, but most of that market won't want to play any games again that meet the same standards as the wow from which they quit.

     

    You know, let me make you an example. When Camelot Unchained will come out, let me tell you. It will have about 2-4 million people buying it at the release. Most of them will be players who loved DaoC or just couldn't play it at the time, but loved the gameplay and concept. And you know what? If the game won't deliver as they did with DaoC or will just anyhow make a shit product, people will stop playing it. Easy as that. And the game will be marked as failure. Does that mean that there is no market anymore for DaoC players? NO. IT MEANS THAT THE GAME WAS JUST CRAP.

     

    When I played PC games at 90s, I don't know how many titles there were total, but I sure know that about on average (I pirated ofc) I could play pretty much 5 new releases every day for like 6 years straight (this ofc included all the pre90s games). About 80-90% of those games were just garbage. They might have had good production value, but they were just bad. Now these days we have like 10-100x less releases (random value) and you know what? The percent of crap games still is exactly the same as it was 10-20 years ago.

     

This discussion has been closed.