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“Innovation” is destroying community

13

Comments

  • JemcrystalJemcrystal Champaign, ILPosts: 1,548Member Uncommon
     Disagree.  Dungeon finders never ruined my ability to make friends in a game.  They did make getting into a dungeon a LOT less boring.


  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Jemcrystal
     Disagree.  Dungeon finders never ruined my ability to make friends in a game.  They did make getting into a dungeon a LOT less boring.

    Yeh.

    It is laughable to think that a game needs forced down-time to make friends.

    In fact, i have made friends even in non-MMO with zero down-time. Heck, if the game has a chat-channel, and a friend list, you can make friends and have a "community".

     

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,849Member Uncommon
    If course it's laughable to someone that admittedly doesn't care about anything but their personal enjoyment and likes to play MMOs as SP games. There isn't anything wrong with that but I wouldn't expect someone with that viewpoint to understand.
  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,849Member Uncommon
    Some people would gladly trade and enjoy that down time for deeper interactions in game. You don't, that's fine just don't put down people who do. Aren't you the one who tells people that because they don't like something doesn't mean others do as well? Someone with your atypical attitude should understand this just fine.
  • ClaudeSuamOramClaudeSuamOram Hartville, OHPosts: 122Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by bingbongbros
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
     

    yeah .. short term fun. And there are endless games to try so it is not like there will be a shortage of fun in the future. I would rather have short term good fun, then long term mediocre fun in a single game. And all entertainment gets boring in a while.

    You are the problem with mmo communities, and people just like you.  MMO's were originally and still trying to be a home for players to have fun and make connections over a long period of time.  That is why they are never supposed to have an "end".

     They are not very successful at the original idea, are they? There is nothing they are "supposed" to be. They are just entertainment products .. and try to survive in the market place.

    But people in your boat consume like locusts and then move on to the next host to devour.  And then there are a slew of ghost town games, some because they were poorly made and others because of nomad gamers.

    Don't sound like your entertainment preference is special and "better" than others. I use my entertainment my way, and vote with my wallet. You do the same. Yeah, of course i game-hop. That is human nature to have a variety of experiences. So what there is a slew of ghost town games. Just play the next one that is not.

     

    LOL! Nariu...you are so out of touch with what "genre" means. Or MMORPG at it's roots.

    Prior to WoW's main streaming of MMORPG's to the mass of gamers from other "genres"...they were very successful in making their games more long term and dedicated to social interaction. It's why they were niche and fairly unknown to those masses.

    But again...once Blizzard mass advertised and brought in these main stream gamers...all companies shifted to cater to those masses who were familiar with fast paced, I'm the hero, reward/achievement hungry types of game play...hence what we have now, and why MMORPG's are almost extinct.

    Sadly...Blizzard hit at the right time and these other companies lost sight of what made MMORPG's stand apart from other gaming genre's...opting to mix them into SP heavy, reward happy games you see now all in the name of not just profit...but chasing the stupid profit Blizzard made.

    Also why I feel you see so many MMORPG's come and go...failing to get there. Also why so many players hop games. You don't have any time to feel attachment to your character, the world you play in, or the community to care to stay. On top of most of them being horribly done.

    Your last paragraph shows your true colors. You are not an MMORPG player, yet you want to make MMORPG's the type of game you like so you have more options for your game hopping....and expect everyone else to follow suit. Selfish to the core.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Some people would gladly trade and enjoy that down time for deeper interactions in game. You don't, that's fine just don't put down people who do. Aren't you the one who tells people that because they don't like something doesn't mean others do as well? Someone with your atypical attitude should understand this just fine.

    There is no "deeper" interaction in down-time, just chat. I have been there. I have been on MSN, and EQ down-time .. EQ down-time is nothing more special than a MSN chat-room.

    Oh ... i never said i look down on those who like down-time. If you like a 20 min boat ride, or stare at a spell book chatting for 10 min .. it is your perogative. There is nothing wrong with that.

    However, it is wrong to claim that you need that boat ride, or the 10 min "quality" time with your spell book to make friends. It is not required. I have made friends (and so have many) on games with zero down-time. Heck, even games that are not MMOs. So if you make that claim, i will dispute. If you say you like to ride a horse for 20 min look at grassland, i say be my guest .. sorry i don't share that desire.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram

    Your last paragraph shows your true colors. You are not an MMORPG player, yet you want to make MMORPG's the type of game you like so you have more options for your game hopping....and expect everyone else to follow suit. Selfish to the core.

    Of course i am not a "classic" MMORPG player. Didn't you read many times that the horrible EQ camping, or griefing UO is zero fun, boring to me?

    However, MMOs are not like that any more, are they? Aren't many of you complain that modern MMOs are lobby co-op games? Didn't you read many times that i *like* lobby co-op games? So why do you think i am here? For the classics, or for the modern?

    And you are confused .. i don't need any MMO to become what i like .. the devs want to make them to please my preferences.

    And selfish? well well well .. you don't want games made for your preferences? You want games made for me? If not, you are as selfish as me.

    Don't confuse "expressing my opinion" to "expect everyone to follow suit". We are on the internet. No sane person to expect a few posts will make anyone to follow anything.

  • PsychowPsychow SF Giants Territory, CAPosts: 1,784Member

    Deeper interaction:

     

    "Hey xxStealthyxx...what's your favorite color? Do you like Pie?"

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Psychow

    Deeper interaction:

     

    "Hey xxStealthyxx...what's your favorite color? Do you like Pie?"

    Or may be they mean loot drama, or arguing who is next in camping. Glad i don't need to tolerate "deeper interactions" anymore.

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,849Member Uncommon
    Once again self preference is made as fact and indicative of the industry while those with another opinion have words put in their mouth and are misinterpreted. It's not worth responding to anymore lol.

    I'm glad that games will be opening up to social networks and improving the actual interactions.

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,849Member Uncommon
    Yeah, I can guarantee that more will be said in a Vanguard dungeon group than a WoW LFD group. I'm not sure why people have to argue that or think it's a bad thing. That's what "deeper interaction" means to me. Sure, I like speed profession at times as much as the next gamer. I'm not sure why things have to be team red and team blue all the time. I guess it's the urge to argue and "win". It's funny to see.
  • PsychowPsychow SF Giants Territory, CAPosts: 1,784Member

    Originally posted by Aelious
    Once again self preference is made as fact and indicative of the industry while those with another opinion have words put in their mouth and are misinterpreted. It's not worth responding to anymore lol.

    I'm glad that games will be opening up to social networks and improving the actual interactions.

     

    6 minutes later...

     

    Originally posted by Aelious
    Yeah, I can guarantee that more will be said in a Vanguard dungeon group than a WoW LFD group. I'm not sure why people have to argue that or think it's a bad thing. That's what "deeper interaction" means to me. Sure, I like speed profession at times as much as the next gamer. I'm not sure why things have to be team red and team blue all the time. I guess it's the urge to argue and "win". It's funny to see.

     

    LOLOL image

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member

    The entire idea that community should be require to progess is misguided.

    Long before there was a "group finder" there were people joining groups JUST TO GET XP FASTER and didnt give a lick about the people they were grouping with.

    Forced grouping = bad game design.

    Design a game that is FUN and gives people reasons to get together, and they will. Perhaps instead of LAUGHING the next time someone posts about ROLEPLAYING aspects, try actually looking at the REASONS.

    If people can sit, dance (not via emotes), play music, layout food and drinks and do a variety of SOCIAL things it will get people playing together other than just grouping...and there is your community building. Make crafting so it can create a TON of social costumes and make it so players can hold costume contests easily...put a big stage in every city...have it so that music that can be played has a large variety for concerts to be held...give us fireworks to shoot off for that concert! Allow players to do magic tricks, juggle and other crazy things that can bring life to a ctiy/town.

    GIVE US WAYS TO BE SOCIAL and stop basing it on grouping to kill things, thats what most of the game is anyways, a community needs a VARIETY of things to do together...

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Psychow

    Originally posted by Aelious
    Once again self preference is made as fact and indicative of the industry while those with another opinion have words put in their mouth and are misinterpreted. It's not worth responding to anymore lol.

    I'm glad that games will be opening up to social networks and improving the actual interactions.

     

    6 minutes later...

     

    Originally posted by Aelious
    Yeah, I can guarantee that more will be said in a Vanguard dungeon group than a WoW LFD group. I'm not sure why people have to argue that or think it's a bad thing. That's what "deeper interaction" means to me. Sure, I like speed profession at times as much as the next gamer. I'm not sure why things have to be team red and team blue all the time. I guess it's the urge to argue and "win". It's funny to see.

     

    LOLOL image

    Yeah .. he is describing himself :)

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by jtcgs

    GIVE US WAYS TO BE SOCIAL and stop basing it on grouping to kill things, thats what most of the game is anyways, a community needs a VARIETY of things to do together...

    Haven't you played SIMS online? It is not like social has not been tried. But we all know how that ends. Look at the market, people want to kill things together.

     

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by jtcgs

    GIVE US WAYS TO BE SOCIAL and stop basing it on grouping to kill things, thats what most of the game is anyways, a community needs a VARIETY of things to do together...

    Haven't you played SIMS online? It is not like social has not been tried. But we all know how that ends. Look at the market, people want to kill things together.

     

     You mean also like UO, EQ1&2, AC1, SWG, LoTRo, CoH and those are just the western made MMOs that provided plenty of RP in their RPG...gawd.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,849Member Uncommon
    Lol, I was responding to you Psychow and I had a completely valid assurtion. Community will be important to some and not others. In a time period where we are more connected via the Internet it's rediculous to think it will lessen in online avenues. I mean, it's not as though even SP games are adding online functionality. It will only get bigger.
  • WW4BWWW4BW KoldingPosts: 493Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by WellzyC

    MMOs of today do not require you to form a community in order to progress because the games systems have bypassed that requirement through “innovative” features.

    So? Obviously communtiy is not requierd to have fun .. and the innvoations you described recognize that.

    I like all those features. No ninja-loot system is great. LFD is great. LFR is great .. for me, of course.

    Without community, you might as well be playing single player games.

    In those you dont get ninja looted either. Though with a community you can shame ninja looters into where they will have a hard time finding another group.

    LFG, LFD, and LFR with instant teleportation to the action is just a fancy graphical lobby. Not an MMO..

    I never liked the term AAA.. But I see now what it is for.. AAA games arent great MMOs. They are passable singleplayer experiences, with some multiplayer functions.

    Good MMOs dont need hours of voice acting, fancy cut scenes, or months of quest creation. They need a community.

    It's true that you dont need a community to have fun. But fun alone does not make a game into an MMO.

    Developers "waste" years creating single player content for a multi player game. That its massivly multi player only makes it worse.

    All this content, they spend millions and years creating, gets consumed in weeks. Everyone experience pretty much the same game, there are no unique stories to be lived. And every character gets reduced to a spreadsheet of stats with no meaning.

    The "big boys" are terrible at making MMOs for one simple reason. They try to control every aspect of the game. They need to be able to predict every stage of the games evolution (they force a lack of it, in fact), and design every part to be as predictable as possible, so they can plan years ahead in detail.

    Early MMOs didnt put everything on rails.. It was unpredictable and dangerous. The Devs had no idea what people could do in their games. But when it wasnt game breaking it was absolute bliss, even if it was game breaking it could be the greatest thing ever. Stories and legends grew from almost nothing. It wasnt something the Developers had created. They had created a world were people were free to do things their own way.. And this scares the shit out of most  IP owners.

    IP hoarders dont want you messing with their cash cow... They alone get to decide how it developes. If they cant, they wont touch it.

     

    *edit* ok this started to turn into a rant about IP owners and thats not really where i wanted to go. I think I would substitute publishers for IP owners for the particular argument I was making.

  • RoinRoin Baltimore, MDPosts: 2,926Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aelious
    I agree OP and that Georgenson interview brought a smile to my face, as most EQN related news/comments have. I don't care how many players want to be unsocial in an MMO, as asinine as it seems, having systems that encourage or even force interaction is a good thing IMO. Make it public too so that those who don't like interacting with others don't bother playing. You can't make everyone happy and there are clearly enough MMOs out there to play without taking to anyone.

    SoE's innovations will be a great step in communicating with others. They already have good voice and visual chat with SoEMote. Add in the fact that PS2 has open proximity chat tells me I'll be able to walk up to strangers in a town and our avatars could not only chat verbally but visually.

    That's my idea of MMO innovation! :)

    The only people that need to be forced to do anything. Are people that can't do it for themselves. I don't need a game to tell me when to talk to someone. I'll do that when and where I want to.  I don't need a game to tell me when to interact with someone. I'll do that myself.

    Forced grouping is just a poor way of helping the the real people with social problems. The people that need developers to force others to work with them. That is why even now UO was superior to EQ when it released.   

    Grouping and Communication should be there to make life easier. Not help socially inept people make friends. UO understood this well. Even SWG understood this. I don't know maybe there is some truth into what all the pro-sandbox people have been saying.

    In War - Victory.
    In Peace - Vigilance.
    In Death - Sacrifice.

  • WW4BWWW4BW KoldingPosts: 493Member
    Originally posted by Roin
    Originally posted by Aelious
     

    The only people that need to be forced to do anything. Are people that can't do it for themselves. I don't need a game to tell me when to talk to someone. I'll do that when and where I want to.  I don't need a game to tell me when to interact with someone. I'll do that myself.

    Forced grouping is just a poor way of helping the the real people with social problems. The people that need developers to force others to work with them. That is why even now UO was superior to EQ when it released.   

    Grouping and Communication should be there to make life easier. Not help socially inept people make friends. UO understood this well. Even SWG understood this. I don't know maybe there is some truth into what all the pro-sandbox people have been saying.

     You werent forced in the old games. It made sense to group.. but you werent forced..

     Or if you like.. sure you were forced to group to kill the big stuff.. but even some of that could be done with two or three people.

     In new games you are pretty much an idiot if you stop to group up for most of the content. and then you are most certainly forced into groups and raids to get the good stuff at max level. screw you "bind on pickup".

     Soloing in new games is so piss easy, stuff just dies and you feel badass for a few seconds. But just look at all these badasses around you.. even the cloth wearing healer is killing stuff with ease. Yeah, you are a big bad warrior.

     And should you even need or want to communicate in a group... Well tough luck there isnt time.. gotta keep spamming skills and running... In older games there were far more auto attacking and more time between required input that you actually had time to type.. And in older games you actually had pulling, leading to more time to communicate.. In newer games you just jump on a camp of creeps and spam skills till they are all dead, before rushing after the most impatient member of the group to the next camp.. It is extremly rare that people stop to talk strategy even.. 

    The current crop of MMOs are so focused on instant action and gratification that social players are left out in the cold.

    And no.. standing around in town and spamming crap in chat isnt socializing. Its being a pest while you wait for the dungeon finder to teleport you to the next silent dungeon rush.

    With all this bull shit instancing... its even less likely you wil ever socialize.. you have your own private dungeon and camps.. No need to talk about sharing or meeting a stranger and teaming up for a daring trek into the unknown.. 

    You are missing out on something great..... and so are those of us who definatly want more incentives to group up. Because its not in these current Massivly Singleplayer Online games.

     

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,849Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GreenHell
    Originally posted by Aelious

    Well right now they have over 9 million subs so yeah,  I doubt they are going to make any changes unless it is a major change the largest amount of people will enjoy.  I'm really not sure what they could add that would be cohesive with their current gameplay model anyhow, aside from maybe RP tools.  I'm not saying that a majority of people want better commnuity tools, what I'm saying is that they can always make a game better.  I bet RP communities would agree with this and in most games, especially WoW, they can be large.  Although some might not care about a better community I can't imagine they would be against it.

    Once again well said and I agree that if they did add tools for RPers that it would not negatively impact the game. In fact I'm sure most people would not even notice. My point being is there must be a reason they do not. That part of the player base is either to small, not vocal, or are happy with the way things are.

    I don't think adding more options to a game can ever be a negative thing. Options are great even if I never use them. You see thats where this debate really starts. Having the option and forcing that style of gameplay are two different things. Adding tools to make those that want to participate in community is the logical thing to do in this era of MMORPGs. Making a MMO that is designed to force people to be active in the community is a thing of the past.

     

    Well said and I agree with you that for most games this is the case, especially WoW.  I know the term "forced" generates an immediate cringe but dungeons force at least being in a group in order to complete the content at level.  Maybe that's why LFD groups don't typically have as much chat going on is because there are a lot of people who just don't want to socialize, just progress.  It's entirely possible that forcing cooperative play like LFD in another game may yield different results.  If EQ2 ever balances it's 29 classes correctly into it's LFD we'll find out image.

     

     Blizzard has put things into WoW that promote more interaction between players.  First was opening up the WoW phone app to all subs.  This app allows you to remote chat into your guild and even whisper people.  Another is more world bosses and shared mob credit outside of groups.  Third is CRZ.  Cross Realm Zoning that allows battlegroups to share zones with one another.  This along with shared world bosses and shared credit did promote interaction between players.  For those on an RP server grouped with Moonguard like me... this can be a blessing and a curse though I must say they turn out in numbers.  Lovin' you Goldshire!!

     

    The CRZ addition didn't bring all roses however.  There is a 530ish page thread about what's wrong with CRZ citing camping on PvP servers, harrassment, bigotry, etc, etc.  Which brings me back to the previous statement that more social functionality that helps some games may not help others. 

  • ClaudeSuamOramClaudeSuamOram Hartville, OHPosts: 122Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    And selfish? well well well .. you don't want games made for your preferences? You want games made for me? If not, you are as selfish as me.

    Negative.

     

    Who is more selfish here.

    The one who has many games that already cater to his tastes always attempting to out yell those asking for 1, just 1 the way they would like to see it in any and every post that pertains to an old school feel?

    Or the one asking for 1 game in 1000 to release with their preferences and to be different from the slew of themepark hamster wheel games already in existence?

    And there will be a few coming down the pipe, things always come back around...so don't give me the it won't happen BS. Which I am sure BTW you will sound off on how horrible and boring they are...and how they need to change X,Y, and Z (solo heavy, fast, heavily instanced) to make it not tank.

    It can be done without making it overly grindy, and there are ways to make play time during what use to be down-time. Just need dev's to wake out of their stooper and get the creative juices flowing again instead of simply looking at the easiest route to keep the players suckered and paying.

     

  • daltaniousdaltanious waPosts: 2,141Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by WellzyC

     

    Examples?

    The dungeon finder:  You don’t have to actively talk to people and recruit them in order to form a group.

     

    Khm, will try to guess. Maybe because is not fun lfg-ing for 9 hours to be able to play (sometimes) 1 hour?

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,258Member Uncommon
    Nice post OP. Thanks for the thought on mega servers.
  • daltaniousdaltanious waPosts: 2,141Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Nice post OP. Thanks for the thought on mega servers.

    Agree on this. I'm much more pro mega servers then dozens of single servers. Instancing if done correctly is not problem. Also player must be able to switch without problems between.

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