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James Ohlen on GDC, discussed SWTOR problems

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  • dead2soondead2soon phoenix, AZPosts: 149Member
    Didn't the SWTOR dev goup put on a big pay for "How to Develop Successful MMO's" seminar? Wonder if those people got refunds.
  • superniceguysuperniceguy AnchorheadPosts: 2,278Member Uncommon

    It is quite quck getting through the content in SWTOR as the combat is quite easy, you can get though the game without much difficulty. Playing MMOs like Vanguard for example, is much tougher, and if you treat it like SWTOR then it is easy to die, and especiallt when taking on a mob of 2 or more, whereas in SWTOR can take on about 3 or 4 and not break a sweat.

    It is not a surprise that subs are rising atm, due to Makeb. If F2P want it then they are probably subbing to get it for $25 as is more value for money. I even subbed to get it, but will not again afterwards.

  • tiefighter25tiefighter25 Winchester, MAPosts: 937Member
    Originally posted by DaRoamer
    Originally posted by gervaise1
    Originally posted by tiefighter25

    I don't think he is being entirely truthful.

    Certainly very selective.

    Subs started to go up again - between November and December as per your second link (http://www.edge-online.com/features/gdc-2013-star-wars-the-old-republics-difficult-launch-and-its-free-to-play-switch/ )  Like saying subs are going up kust after a game launches. Game goes f2p, lots of folk try it and, no surprise, some of them become subscribers - and given that the game will have had very few new subscribers in the months prior to going f2p no big deal.

     

    The spin is strong with this one.  From the massively article:

    "When free-to-play launched in November, it "blew all expectations out of the water," said Ohlen. Subscriptions started going up again. Concurrent players on the servers went way up. Both of those statistics continue to rise."

    I know this is painful news for many of the people on this forum who desperately want the game to fail.

    I wouldn't put too much faith in spin. He doesn't quantify those statements, just says they are going up. Remember, there will soon be 17 servers. No mater how MEGA they are, there are limits to how many they can hold. 500k+ subscribers and 2 million new FTP accounts are not what they are capable of holding by a large margin.

     

    (If you want to be a true doomer and gloomer, 6 of those 17 servers are German and French, and they recently laid-off their non-English forum community managers.)

  • akiira69akiira69 San Diego, CAPosts: 590Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Hamsurd
    Why has this game not been shut down ? its very very very very bad, you should feel bad, if you didnt quit after 2 months into the game at lunch.

    because no one else shares your foolish opinions about the game. you might hate the game but i love it, it is the only new mmo out right now that doesnt have a storyline that a sounds like a 7 year old wrote(though with WOW i think a 7 year old could od better).

    "Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"

  • RyowulfRyowulf Greensburg, PAPosts: 668Member

     

    If we take the man at his word, then the AH is pulling in a lot of money. So why are they nickel-and-diming free to play players (who are spending tons of money in the AH apparently), isn't that crapping on the face of your customers?

     

    Why are they charging for content that was free, if they are racking in so much cash?

     

    If the man is right in what he said then they are gouging their player base.

     

    So either he is right and they are a-holes or he is lying/misrepresenting the truth.

  • Sevenstar61Sevenstar61 Centreville, VAPosts: 1,690Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ryowulf

     

    If we take the man at his word, then the AH is pulling in a lot of money. So why are they nickel-and-diming free to play players (who are spending tons of money in the AH apparently), isn't that crapping on the face of your customers?

     

    Why are they charging for content that was free, if they are racking in so much cash?

     

    If the man is right in what he said then they are gouging their player base.

     

    So either he is right and they are a-holes or he is lying/misrepresenting the truth.

    SWTOR main player base are still subscribers, and it's growing numbers.... I bet that subscribers are spending more in Cartel market than F2P, so why make it easier to F2P players :). To keep subscribers there has to be insentive to be one, otherwise we would all be F2P players, right?

     

    image
    Sith Warrior - Story of Hate and Love http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxKrlwXt7Ao
    Imperial Agent - Rise of Cipher Nine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBBj3eJWBvU&feature=youtu.be
    Imperial Agent - Hunt for the Eagle Part 1http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQqjYYU128E

  • SwaneaSwanea Vegas, NVPosts: 2,368Member Uncommon

    Just to nitpick, it does say Three to Five.  I believe my first agent took about 2 months and while I played a lot, i'm one of the MOST inefficient levelers you'll meet.

    They were so far off it's silly.  Most of my friends in my guild were fifty in 3 weeks tops.  I can't believe they didn't look into WoW, GW, or ANY OTHER MMO OUT and see how many people RUSH to end game (especially after WoW made End game the only part of the game).

    They put a ton of emphasis on their story, which is great.  But almost nothing on endgame at release when they KNOW people gobble up raid/end game stuff in other MMOs like it's water in the desert.

  • Sevenstar61Sevenstar61 Centreville, VAPosts: 1,690Member Uncommon

    All of my toons time spent on leveling was about  7 to 8 days of gameplay - no shortcuts. But I was so involved in stories that i did not care much about end game at that time... I had so many alts to level... I still do:)

     

    Well folks... looks like BioWare will be making another MMO... and I say... keep them coming... now you can bite me :)

    SWTOR now has plans extending into the future including more expansion packs, like Rise of the Hutt Cartel and beyond. The plan is to introduce items into the game that do not exist in current MMOs. And thanks to the current success of TOR, BioWare is now the studio that will lead the charge for EA MMORPGs in the future, ones that aren't just Star Wars but other IPs as well. But most importantly, Ohlen told us, the morale of the BioWare community and studio has soared, and he hopes to tell us a different story for next year.

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/03/29/gdc-2013-james-ohlen-on-how-f2p-saved-swtor/

    image
    Sith Warrior - Story of Hate and Love http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxKrlwXt7Ao
    Imperial Agent - Rise of Cipher Nine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBBj3eJWBvU&feature=youtu.be
    Imperial Agent - Hunt for the Eagle Part 1http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQqjYYU128E

  • DaRoamerDaRoamer Toronto, ONPosts: 249Member
    Originally posted by tiefighter25
    Originally posted by DaRoamer
    Originally posted by gervaise1
    Originally posted by tiefighter25

    I don't think he is being entirely truthful.

    Certainly very selective.

    Subs started to go up again - between November and December as per your second link (http://www.edge-online.com/features/gdc-2013-star-wars-the-old-republics-difficult-launch-and-its-free-to-play-switch/ )  Like saying subs are going up kust after a game launches. Game goes f2p, lots of folk try it and, no surprise, some of them become subscribers - and given that the game will have had very few new subscribers in the months prior to going f2p no big deal.

     

    The spin is strong with this one.  From the massively article:

    "When free-to-play launched in November, it "blew all expectations out of the water," said Ohlen. Subscriptions started going up again. Concurrent players on the servers went way up. Both of those statistics continue to rise."

    I know this is painful news for many of the people on this forum who desperately want the game to fail.

    I wouldn't put too much faith in spin. He doesn't quantify those statements, just says they are going up. Remember, there will soon be 17 servers. No mater how MEGA they are, there are limits to how many they can hold. 500k+ subscribers and 2 million new FTP accounts are not what they are capable of holding by a large margin.

     

    (If you want to be a true doomer and gloomer, 6 of those 17 servers are German and French, and they recently laid-off their non-English forum community managers.)

    Eve has 1 server.  They have 450k subs. 

  • BurntvetBurntvet Baltimore, MDPosts: 2,937Member Uncommon
    Games are just not made by "game guys" anymore. They are made by companies run by MBAs that might do just fine at a company making lawnmowers, but absolutely suck at developing anything creative. As someone who has been watching the whole sad, sorry epic that is TOR, what I see is almost stereotypical corporate behavior and responses to the things that have happened. And again, while those things might work well in other industries (and the "corporate think" that goes along with it), but not in making/running an MMO. It is not a coincidence that the slide in the quality/originality of MMOs has mirrored the rise of large companies making them.
  • ktanner3ktanner3 lakeland, FLPosts: 4,074Member
    Originally posted by Sevenstar61

    All of my toons time spent on leveling was about  7 to 8 days of gameplay - no shortcuts. But I was so involved in stories that i did not care much about end game at that time... I had so many alts to level... I still do:)

     

    Well folks... looks like BioWare will be making another MMO... and I say... keep them coming... now you can bite me :)

    SWTOR now has plans extending into the future including more expansion packs, like Rise of the Hutt Cartel and beyond. The plan is to introduce items into the game that do not exist in current MMOs. And thanks to the current success of TOR, BioWare is now the studio that will lead the charge for EA MMORPGs in the future, ones that aren't just Star Wars but other IPs as well. But most importantly, Ohlen told us, the morale of the BioWare community and studio has soared, and he hopes to tell us a different story for next year.

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/03/29/gdc-2013-james-ohlen-on-how-f2p-saved-swtor/

     

    That snap,crackle and pop you just heard was heads exploding across this website :)[mod edit]

    Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  • tiefighter25tiefighter25 Winchester, MAPosts: 937Member
    Originally posted by DaRoamer
    Originally posted by tiefighter25

    I wouldn't put too much faith in spin. He doesn't quantify those statements, just says they are going up. Remember, there will soon be 17 servers. No mater how MEGA they are, there are limits to how many they can hold. 500k+ subscribers and 2 million new FTP accounts are not what they are capable of holding by a large margin.

     

    (If you want to be a true doomer and gloomer, 6 of those 17 servers are German and French, and they recently laid-off their non-English forum community managers.)

    Eve has 1 server.  They have 450k subs. 

    Not exactly comparing apples to apples are you? Or do you believe the SWTOR servers are capable of anything aproaching EVE's server capacity?

  • hammarushammarus minneapolis, MNPosts: 184Member
    Originally posted by Jonoku
    They came in knowing nothing about MMOs, understandable. Producing a themepark MMO=you better be able to produce lots of content quick. LOL they expected us to hit 50 in 5 months.

    No. NO. NO!  Knowing nothing about mmos is not understandable.  Its inexcuseable.  Do your damn homework.  Play the games.  Hell they could have found a million mmo players that could have told them that content gets chewed up quickly. 

    IMO, its not inexperience its incompetence.

  • tiefighter25tiefighter25 Winchester, MAPosts: 937Member
    Originally posted by Sevenstar61

    All of my toons time spent on leveling was about  7 to 8 days of gameplay - no shortcuts. But I was so involved in stories that i did not care much about end game at that time... I had so many alts to level... I still do:)

     

    Well folks... looks like BioWare will be making another MMO... and I say... keep them coming... now you can bite me :)

    SWTOR now has plans extending into the future including more expansion packs, like Rise of the Hutt Cartel and beyond. The plan is to introduce items into the game that do not exist in current MMOs. And thanks to the current success of TOR, BioWare is now the studio that will lead the charge for EA MMORPGs in the future, ones that aren't just Star Wars but other IPs as well. But most importantly, Ohlen told us, the morale of the BioWare community and studio has soared, and he hopes to tell us a different story for next year.

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/03/29/gdc-2013-james-ohlen-on-how-f2p-saved-swtor/

    The last time EA tapped one of their studios to be their MMORPG flagship was Mythic. Then came Warhammer. Then Mythic was given to Bioware to utilize. Now Mythic has been taken back away from Bioware to make iOS, android, and mobile games.

    I'm being a Debbie Downer, but you are really taking a PR statement as the gospel truth.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,638Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Burntvet
    Games are just not made by "game guys" anymore. They are made by companies run by MBAs that might do just fine at a company making lawnmowers, but absolutely suck at developing anything creative.

    I'm sure your friends who are game devs (I assume you are basing your statement of fact on some actual point of reference) appreciate your view of them.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • hammarushammarus minneapolis, MNPosts: 184Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Burntvet
    Games are just not made by "game guys" anymore. They are made by companies run by MBAs that might do just fine at a company making lawnmowers, but absolutely suck at developing anything creative.

    I'm sure your friends who are game devs (I assume you are basing your statement of fact on some actual point of reference) appreciate your view of them.

     

    Don't dismiss this comment out of hand.  There is a kernel of truth to it.

  • erictlewiserictlewis Cottondale, ALPosts: 3,026Member Uncommon

    Well I remember that durring beta we were told the lie that there would be hundreds of planets and enough countent to last for 10 years.   Ummm yea well if there metrics were off that bad, well then  they can never deliver on that promise.

    As far as saying that subs are on the rise,  torstatus.net says differently.  

     

  • DaRoamerDaRoamer Toronto, ONPosts: 249Member
    Originally posted by tiefighter25
    Originally posted by DaRoamer
    Originally posted by tiefighter25

    I wouldn't put too much faith in spin. He doesn't quantify those statements, just says they are going up. Remember, there will soon be 17 servers. No mater how MEGA they are, there are limits to how many they can hold. 500k+ subscribers and 2 million new FTP accounts are not what they are capable of holding by a large margin.

     

    (If you want to be a true doomer and gloomer, 6 of those 17 servers are German and French, and they recently laid-off their non-English forum community managers.)

    Eve has 1 server.  They have 450k subs. 

    Not exactly comparing apples to apples are you? Or do you believe the SWTOR servers are capable of anything aproaching EVE's server capacity?

    I don't know, why don't you tell me what SWTOR's server capacity is.  You're the one making the correlation between the number of servers and their sub numbers.

  • akkedis86akkedis86 pretoriaPosts: 108Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Ujirik
    They weren't prepared for people playing 15 hours a day and skipping dialogue whenever possible. I've only heard a few rumors, but I believe they do exist...

    Except that not everyone was skipping dialogue. The problem was that they had a horde of people who were not interested in this game as it was presented.

    To that point, I never once skipped dialogue. ever. However I hit level cap in a month I believe.

    there are peopel who like this game. And even now play it and love it. But the game never offered anyting other than the "bioware story experience". Had they added other things to keep people going, those who were interested in what they had to offer, the style of the game, would have stayed around.

    Rolling alts is not a legitimate end game.

    Ilum is a endgame planet, I don't see how they don't have an endgame, it's always been solid. I'd like to see you go to full geared pve/pvp + auged in a month from 50.

    You get lots of Flashpoints for gear, and pvp is lacking though, a rvr with real rewards wouldn.t hurt at all if well executed. But pvp is clean, and factual, and not sugar-coated, it's the best for a competitive person, as  they show actual damage, heals, guarding/taunting, in numbers.

  • akkedis86akkedis86 pretoriaPosts: 108Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Hamsurd
    Why has this game not been shut down ? its very very very very bad, you should feel bad, if you didnt quit after 2 months into the game at lunch.

    You should feel bad for playing dictator, and trying to take away someone primary mmo! .

     

    Who do you think you are, and what makes you so special?

  • tiefighter25tiefighter25 Winchester, MAPosts: 937Member
    Originally posted by DaRoamer
    Originally posted by tiefighter25
    Originally posted by DaRoamer
    Originally posted by tiefighter25

    I wouldn't put too much faith in spin. He doesn't quantify those statements, just says they are going up. Remember, there will soon be 17 servers. No mater how MEGA they are, there are limits to how many they can hold. 500k+ subscribers and 2 million new FTP accounts are not what they are capable of holding by a large margin.

     

    (If you want to be a true doomer and gloomer, 6 of those 17 servers are German and French, and they recently laid-off their non-English forum community managers.)

    Eve has 1 server.  They have 450k subs. 

    Not exactly comparing apples to apples are you? Or do you believe the SWTOR servers are capable of anything aproaching EVE's server capacity?

    I don't know, why don't you tell me what SWTOR's server capacity is.  You're the one making the correlation between the number of servers and their sub numbers.

    According to she who's name can't be mentioned, 3 times the original servers, or 6,000 players. (Which does seem about right when you consider the Fleets as the main social Hub.)

    17 servers x 6,000 players is a max congruency of about 100,000 players. (And the servers haven't come close to being Full/Very Heavy in a long time).

    If I assume that congruency = about 20% of total game population, that's 500,000 total players. If I assume that 3 out of 4 players (based on the pop increase after the FTP transition) are FTP, that's 125,000 subscribers. (This is all assuming all 17 servers hit full every day, so I'm erring on the high side, by a lot.)

    Granted, a portion of that subscriber population is spending a lot more then their sub each month, “If you spend hundreds of dollars on packs, looking for an item, you don’t feel totally cheated as you can sell it on,” said Ohlen."

    How much, I don't know. I do know EA only say they were happy with the initial numbers, but didn't know if it was long term sustainable. (They also didn't give the usual FTP has brought x ammount times of more revenue hoopla.)

    I do know Bioware is still streamlining their workforce.

    I can't say if they're making a profit or minimizing losses.

    I do know that 17 servers (at about 6k people max a server) = 500K+ subscribers and 2 million FTP players does not compute.

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member
    Originally posted by Sevenstar61

     

    Well folks... looks like BioWare will be making another MMO... and I say... keep them coming... now you can bite me :)

    SWTOR now has plans extending into the future including more expansion packs, like Rise of the Hutt Cartel and beyond. The plan is to introduce items into the game that do not exist in current MMOs. And thanks to the current success of TOR, BioWare is now the studio that will lead the charge for EA MMORPGs in the future, ones that aren't just Star Wars but other IPs as well. But most importantly, Ohlen told us, the morale of the BioWare community and studio has soared, and he hopes to tell us a different story for next year.

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/03/29/gdc-2013-james-ohlen-on-how-f2p-saved-swtor/

    Yeah, good luck with that.

    Massively are an advertising subsidiary of Bioware, Ohlen is a former customer service guy that they promoted to king dummy on the SWTOR project, and you posted this in a thread where Ohlen is shown to have made idiotic remarks about the reason that the game failed to thrive as a subscription built project within 6 months.

    Even if this is true, it's incredibly stupid of EA. The Bioware brand was destroyed by SWTOR.

     

    I imagine their next game will be all cutscene. You make a character, watch your character navigate itself through the world, and then choose dialogue choices.

    1 Beneficial: I will help you get the medicine.

    2 Neutral: I will get the medicine if you pay me.

    3 Anti-social: I won't get the medicine, but I will do the quest because the ending is shared by options 1, and 2. I will make sarcastic remarks before doing the quest.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member
    Originally posted by ktanner3
    Originally posted by Sevenstar61

     

     

    That snap,crackle and pop you just heard was heads exploding across this website :) I'll be enjoying the tears right along with you.

    Yes, the same tears you shed when you watch someone make a tragic mistake over and over again.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • akkedis86akkedis86 pretoriaPosts: 108Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by danwest58
    Originally posted by FromHell

    check it out

     

    http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/03/28/bioware-gdc-panel-star-wars-the-old-republic/

     

     

    "GDC 2013: BioWare expected players to take five months to hit SWTOR’s level cap"

     

    It was said last year at their guild get together in TX.  So that is not new.  Thats why they were scrambling to come up with a new plan. 

    And I finished Guild Wars 2 in 2 weeks, and had full exotic gear.

    Point being it does not have the least content of any game out there, it was new, they made quality content which took time, and you just need to see it for what it is .I've been playing for 10 months already, and still going strong.

  • akkedis86akkedis86 pretoriaPosts: 108Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by tiefighter25
    Originally posted by DaRoamer
    Originally posted by tiefighter25
    Originally posted by DaRoamer
    Originally posted by tiefighter25

    I wouldn't put too much faith in spin. He doesn't quantify those statements, just says they are going up. Remember, there will soon be 17 servers. No mater how MEGA they are, there are limits to how many they can hold. 500k+ subscribers and 2 million new FTP accounts are not what they are capable of holding by a large margin.

     

    (If you want to be a true doomer and gloomer, 6 of those 17 servers are German and French, and they recently laid-off their non-English forum community managers.)

    Eve has 1 server.  They have 450k subs. 

    Not exactly comparing apples to apples are you? Or do you believe the SWTOR servers are capable of anything aproaching EVE's server capacity?

    I don't know, why don't you tell me what SWTOR's server capacity is.  You're the one making the correlation between the number of servers and their sub numbers.

    According to she who's name can't be mentioned, 3 times the original servers, or 6,000 players. (Which does seem about right when you consider the Fleets as the main social Hub.)

    17 servers x 6,000 players is a max congruency of about 100,000 players. (And the servers haven't come close to being Full/Very Heavy in a long time).

    If I assume that congruency = about 20% of total game population, that's 500,000 total players. If I assume that 3 out of 4 players (based on the pop increase after the FTP transition) are FTP, that's 125,000 subscribers. (This is all assuming all 17 servers hit full every day, so I'm erring on the high side, by a lot.)

    Granted, a portion of that subscriber population is spending a lot more then their sub each month, “If you spend hundreds of dollars on packs, looking for an item, you don’t feel totally cheated as you can sell it on,” said Ohlen."

    How much, I don't know. I do know EA only say they were happy with the initial numbers, but didn't know if it was long term sustainable. (They also didn't give the usual FTP has brought x ammount times of more revenue hoopla.)

    I do know Bioware is still streamlining their workforce.

    I can't say if they're making a profit or minimizing losses.

    I do know that 17 servers (at about 6k people max a server) = 500K+ subscribers and 2 million FTP players does not compute.

    Math much?

     

    They have 20 servers, with peak capacity of 10000 +- logged on at the same time, and frequent "FULL" messages on servers tend to give us a good picture.

    So, simultanious logins can go to 200k, concidering time zone diffirences, that won't happen, but it's only 1/10th of people logged in simultaniously at any given time, if you think logically. 

     

    So trying to derive numbers from that is rediculous.

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