All these ES nutjob fans who think an mmo can survive if it's an ES4, you're wrong. MMO's need end game content that can't be conquered within the first 3-6 months, which buys the devs time to create new content in that time.
You don't necessarily need raids, you just need epic crazy hard bosses, that everyone pubs and guilds alike are fighting to kill - even better in a contested pvp area.
Your first assumption is pretty "off".
What is the end game in morrowind? How about Oblvion? Ok, fine, how about Skyrim?
and yet I played Morrowind for 2 years, Obvlion from launch until they launched skyrim and I've been playing Skyrim since its launch.
and yet "what is the end game?"
for me, it's different characters that have different motivations and that do things differently from one encounter to another.
I thought I was pretty much alone in this until I met a whole slew of elder scrolls players who played the exact same way. And they had played daggerfall which they said felt like the "neverending game".
I'm not concerned about Elder Scrolls players finding things to do provided the game incorporates "Elder Scrolls things to do". Regardless of your feeling toward these players.
The second statement (above) I agree with.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by kidas52 With the realization of no raiding, only 4 man dungeons, and " high end" world content in the form of what guild wars 2 is doing. I guess I will just have to wait for Everquest next.
EQN is going to be primarily a sandbox, so don't get your hopes up for a raid focused end game.
Did a new rule get passed that sandbox means that there will be no raiding, or less raiding?
EQN is still an EQ game and raiding is a very big part of EQ. Raiding in EQ is the epitome of the group enforced content and was a natural progression from the single group content. Remember all EQ raids were open world raids and not in an instance. Only Fear and Hate were level locked when they were made available a few months after release. So I highly doubt EQN will not have raids as a big part of its game.
Well, SWG was SOE's idea of a sandbox game and it didn't have raiding. Hence my comment to not get your hopes up. Didn't say it would not happen, only that it isn't likely to.
Well,....Death Watch Bunker was for the most part a raid. Or at least you needed around 10-20 people depending on their professions, buffs, level of skill, and little bit of luck that nothing got bugged in the bunker while you were there.
If the game is good enough it doesn't need any form of raiding. Raids can be easily replaced with hardcore dungeons and massive end game content. I'm more concerned about the system req's and how many players it will alienate.
All these ES nutjob fans who think an mmo can survive if it's an ES4, you're wrong. MMO's need end game content that can't be conquered within the first 3-6 months, which buys the devs time to create new content in that time.
If the time it takes people to clear the endgame is faster than the time it takes devs to introduce new content. You have a game that will innevitably lose its taste.
But! All is not lost my little kittens.
You don't necessarily need raids, you just need epic crazy hard bosses, that everyone pubs and guilds alike are fighting to kill - even better in a contested pvp area.
This was the BEST part of wow in my opinion. Think Kazzak/Azuregos - amazing times had by all on pvp servers, the thrill, the adrenaline... Do you engage the boss first? or do you wait.. It's going to take awhile to kill, is it safe? scouts... Roleplay the face off of it if you have to.
Super hard world bosses can be end game content. If they're done right.
Somethings tells me there are a lot of ES fans out there. More than enough to keep the game going and profitable without needing people like you. I love how you guys think games can't survive without your patronage. You forget that most of those types of gamers do not make it to end game in 3 to 6 months, let alone eat through end game content in that time either. You guys love making strawman arguments based on your own proclivities and not based on the target audience.
Still playing Skyrim here 3rd character over 700 hours of game time and still find new things to do and places I have not seen before.
Raids are not needed in TESO because it has AvA. If you have a raid mechanic in a mmo the pvp suffers from the gear grind which is what has happened in WoW. Raiding is not fun for many players its a thankless task which you HAVE to do to be on a level playing field in pvp. WoW has broken its own pvp mechanic by implementing the raids and this is seen via the pvp stat it now has in place.
Originally posted by kidas52 With the realization of no raiding, only 4 man dungeons, and " high end" world content in the form of what guild wars 2 is doing. I guess I will just have to wait for Everquest next.
Don't worry bitch enough on all the forum sites and Devs are likely to add in 740 man raiding zones. It's official ZOS will cave to what ever faction of players scream the loudest at the detriment to the overarching game design. At this point they need to take this game back to the drawing board and totally remove any vestige of AvA PvP in Cryodill. Because it sure isn't going to be as rewarding as DAoC was.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Still playing Skyrim here 3rd character over 700 hours of game time and still find new things to do and places I have not seen before.
Raids are not needed in TESO because it has AvA. If you have a raid mechanic in a mmo the pvp suffers from the gear grind which is what has happened in WoW. Raiding is not fun for many players its a thankless task which you HAVE to do to be on a level playing field in pvp. WoW has broken its own pvp mechanic by implementing the raids and this is seen via the pvp stat it now has in place.
Though it bears mentioning again that if some sort of "raiding" was incorporated into the game it wouldn't have to be like that. There doesn't have to be a raiding treadmill.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by kidas52 With the realization of no raiding, only 4 man dungeons, and " high end" world content in the form of what guild wars 2 is doing. I guess I will just have to wait for Everquest next.
EQN is going to be primarily a sandbox, so don't get your hopes up for a raid focused end game.
When did I say raid only focused game? I just want their to be something to do with more than 4 people that doeasnt take 5 mins while im eating a taco and talking on the phone because it is so laughably easy.
What game that offers raiding hasn't made it the focus for end game? That is why we are reluctant to even let it happen at all.
All the mmos that have come out since wow have put raidiing on the side burner, and they all flopped.
THey all had pvp and quests and farming and crafting, but 99.9% of people can't do that for more than a couple mojnths.
Originally posted by jackashflash2000 Adventure zones are supposed to be sort of like raiding. If Zen has a brain in their head they will make sure it is, thats all I can say. They will be shitting the bed otherwise as everyone jumps ship, and this turns into just another free ro play pile of shit.
Why is it that everyone believes that without raiding, a game can't be successful? Or the notion that the majority of gamers love raiding? You do realize that most gamers don't enjoy locking themselves into raids, right? Ultima Online didn't have raids. Neither did DAOC, until TOA, and many blame TOA for killing the game. EQ didn't have raids in a traditional sense. All pretty popular games for their time. I'm sure there are plenty of other games as wel that have been successful without the modern 'raid'.
Did you ever play everquest past level 30??? Back when I was 14 I was raiding Dragons for my paladin epic, it was hard, time consuming and so worth it once I achieved the goal. I never said INSTANCES, i said RAIDING. You can have all the raiding content open world, as long as it isnt horribly dull and easy like Rift and GW2.
GW2 content easy? Hmmm.... let me se you solo a Champion at any level... let alone the harder world bosses.
Originally posted by kidas52 With the realization of no raiding, only 4 man dungeons, and " high end" world content in the form of what guild wars 2 is doing. I guess I will just have to wait for Everquest next.
Don't worry bitch enough on all the forum sites and Devs are likely to add in 740 man raiding zones. It's official ZOS will cave to what ever faction of players scream the loudest at the detriment to the overarching game design. At this point they need to take this game back to the drawing board and totally remove any vestige of AvA PvP in Cryodill. Because it sure isn't going to be as rewarding as DAoC was.
Ah the vitreolic anger about something that probably should never have been in the game in the first place from players who are just interested in DAoC 2.
You know, there is a little game called Camelot Unchained that seems to actually be wedded to the whole 3 faction/realm pride DAoC proccess. Sans pve of course. Still, I sense that the real issue is always the pvp with this particular group of players.
Why this group doesn't understand that an Elder Scrolls game might have Elder Scrolls players interested in it being rooted in Elder Scrolls gameplay is beyond me.
And yet, if there was a DAoC 2 being made I strongly suspect that anyone going in and making suggestions that were never a strong part of the DAoC philosophy would be met with the same questions from the DAoC fans. "Why add that to DAoC 2 when it was never a part of DAoC to begin with?."
Well that's what's happening here.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
All these ES nutjob fans who think an mmo can survive if it's an ES4, you're wrong. MMO's need end game content that can't be conquered within the first 3-6 months, which buys the devs time to create new content in that time.
If the time it takes people to clear the endgame is faster than the time it takes devs to introduce new content. You have a game that will innevitably lose its taste.
But! All is not lost my little kittens.
You don't necessarily need raids, you just need epic crazy hard bosses, that everyone pubs and guilds alike are fighting to kill - even better in a contested pvp area.
This was the BEST part of wow in my opinion. Think Kazzak/Azuregos - amazing times had by all on pvp servers, the thrill, the adrenaline... Do you engage the boss first? or do you wait.. It's going to take awhile to kill, is it safe? scouts... Roleplay the face off of it if you have to.
Super hard world bosses can be end game content. If they're done right.
Somethings tells me there are a lot of ES fans out there. More than enough to keep the game going and profitable without needing people like you. I love how you guys think games can't survive without your patronage. You forget that most of those types of gamers do not make it to end game in 3 to 6 months, let alone eat through end game content in that time either. You guys love making strawman arguments based on your own proclivities and not based on the target audience.
Still playing Skyrim here 3rd character over 700 hours of game time and still find new things to do and places I have not seen before.
Raids are not needed in TESO because it has AvA. If you have a raid mechanic in a mmo the pvp suffers from the gear grind which is what has happened in WoW. Raiding is not fun for many players its a thankless task which you HAVE to do to be on a level playing field in pvp. WoW has broken its own pvp mechanic by implementing the raids and this is seen via the pvp stat it now has in place.
Why don't you people understand you are the small minority?
Every game dev since WoW has catered to you casuals, and every single one of the games has flopped.
All these ES nutjob fans who think an mmo can survive if it's an ES4, you're wrong. MMO's need end game content that can't be conquered within the first 3-6 months, which buys the devs time to create new content in that time.
If the time it takes people to clear the endgame is faster than the time it takes devs to introduce new content. You have a game that will innevitably lose its taste.
But! All is not lost my little kittens.
You don't necessarily need raids, you just need epic crazy hard bosses, that everyone pubs and guilds alike are fighting to kill - even better in a contested pvp area.
This was the BEST part of wow in my opinion. Think Kazzak/Azuregos - amazing times had by all on pvp servers, the thrill, the adrenaline... Do you engage the boss first? or do you wait.. It's going to take awhile to kill, is it safe? scouts... Roleplay the face off of it if you have to.
Super hard world bosses can be end game content. If they're done right.
Somethings tells me there are a lot of ES fans out there. More than enough to keep the game going and profitable without needing people like you. I love how you guys think games can't survive without your patronage. You forget that most of those types of gamers do not make it to end game in 3 to 6 months, let alone eat through end game content in that time either. You guys love making strawman arguments based on your own proclivities and not based on the target audience.
Still playing Skyrim here 3rd character over 700 hours of game time and still find new things to do and places I have not seen before.
Raids are not needed in TESO because it has AvA. If you have a raid mechanic in a mmo the pvp suffers from the gear grind which is what has happened in WoW. Raiding is not fun for many players its a thankless task which you HAVE to do to be on a level playing field in pvp. WoW has broken its own pvp mechanic by implementing the raids and this is seen via the pvp stat it now has in place.
now thats something! man, wow was a pure pve game and if it was something that make it less good, was pvp. wow is built to pve, either any1 likes it or not. pvp was out of nature and that was the mistake of blizz. if they just leave it as a pure pve...
pvpers would go elsewere as it was mended with wow, at least at its first steps.
All these ES nutjob fans who think an mmo can survive if it's an ES4, you're wrong. MMO's need end game content that can't be conquered within the first 3-6 months, which buys the devs time to create new content in that time.
If the time it takes people to clear the endgame is faster than the time it takes devs to introduce new content. You have a game that will innevitably lose its taste.
But! All is not lost my little kittens.
You don't necessarily need raids, you just need epic crazy hard bosses, that everyone pubs and guilds alike are fighting to kill - even better in a contested pvp area.
This was the BEST part of wow in my opinion. Think Kazzak/Azuregos - amazing times had by all on pvp servers, the thrill, the adrenaline... Do you engage the boss first? or do you wait.. It's going to take awhile to kill, is it safe? scouts... Roleplay the face off of it if you have to.
Super hard world bosses can be end game content. If they're done right.
Somethings tells me there are a lot of ES fans out there. More than enough to keep the game going and profitable without needing people like you. I love how you guys think games can't survive without your patronage. You forget that most of those types of gamers do not make it to end game in 3 to 6 months, let alone eat through end game content in that time either. You guys love making strawman arguments based on your own proclivities and not based on the target audience.
Still playing Skyrim here 3rd character over 700 hours of game time and still find new things to do and places I have not seen before.
Raids are not needed in TESO because it has AvA. If you have a raid mechanic in a mmo the pvp suffers from the gear grind which is what has happened in WoW. Raiding is not fun for many players its a thankless task which you HAVE to do to be on a level playing field in pvp. WoW has broken its own pvp mechanic by implementing the raids and this is seen via the pvp stat it now has in place.
now thats something! man, wow was a pure pve game and if it was something that make it less good, was pvp. wow is built to pve, either any1 likes it or not. pvp was out of nature and that was the mistake of blizz. if they just leave it as a pure pve...
pvpers would go elsewere as it was mended with wow, at least at its first steps.
What are you guys even talking about? That was done years and years ago....
WoW PvP is quite good actually....Way better than most mmos.
Your suggestion is to do what again? Have wow undo its fix to balance pvp and pve, so they can lose customers? I don't get it...
All these ES nutjob fans who think an mmo can survive if it's an ES4, you're wrong. MMO's need end game content that can't be conquered within the first 3-6 months, which buys the devs time to create new content in that time.
If the time it takes people to clear the endgame is faster than the time it takes devs to introduce new content. You have a game that will innevitably lose its taste.
But! All is not lost my little kittens.
You don't necessarily need raids, you just need epic crazy hard bosses, that everyone pubs and guilds alike are fighting to kill - even better in a contested pvp area.
This was the BEST part of wow in my opinion. Think Kazzak/Azuregos - amazing times had by all on pvp servers, the thrill, the adrenaline... Do you engage the boss first? or do you wait.. It's going to take awhile to kill, is it safe? scouts... Roleplay the face off of it if you have to.
Super hard world bosses can be end game content. If they're done right.
Somethings tells me there are a lot of ES fans out there. More than enough to keep the game going and profitable without needing people like you. I love how you guys think games can't survive without your patronage. You forget that most of those types of gamers do not make it to end game in 3 to 6 months, let alone eat through end game content in that time either. You guys love making strawman arguments based on your own proclivities and not based on the target audience.
Still playing Skyrim here 3rd character over 700 hours of game time and still find new things to do and places I have not seen before.
Raids are not needed in TESO because it has AvA. If you have a raid mechanic in a mmo the pvp suffers from the gear grind which is what has happened in WoW. Raiding is not fun for many players its a thankless task which you HAVE to do to be on a level playing field in pvp. WoW has broken its own pvp mechanic by implementing the raids and this is seen via the pvp stat it now has in place.
now thats something! man, wow was a pure pve game and if it was something that make it less good, was pvp. wow is built to pve, either any1 likes it or not. pvp was out of nature and that was the mistake of blizz. if they just leave it as a pure pve...
pvpers would go elsewere as it was mended with wow, at least at its first steps.
What are you guys even talking about? That was done years and years ago....
WoW PvP is quite good actually....Way better than most mmos.
Your suggestion is to do what again? Have wow undo its fix to balance pvp and pve, so they can lose customers? I don't get it...
i didnt said to roll enything back. i think too that wow pvp even in its current state is at least descent. i m saying that wow started as a pve and not a pvp game and that the first problems and whines came with the implementation of pvp and not raids
All these ES nutjob fans who think an mmo can survive if it's an ES4, you're wrong. MMO's need end game content that can't be conquered within the first 3-6 months, which buys the devs time to create new content in that time.
If the time it takes people to clear the endgame is faster than the time it takes devs to introduce new content. You have a game that will innevitably lose its taste.
But! All is not lost my little kittens.
You don't necessarily need raids, you just need epic crazy hard bosses, that everyone pubs and guilds alike are fighting to kill - even better in a contested pvp area.
This was the BEST part of wow in my opinion. Think Kazzak/Azuregos - amazing times had by all on pvp servers, the thrill, the adrenaline... Do you engage the boss first? or do you wait.. It's going to take awhile to kill, is it safe? scouts... Roleplay the face off of it if you have to.
Super hard world bosses can be end game content. If they're done right.
Somethings tells me there are a lot of ES fans out there. More than enough to keep the game going and profitable without needing people like you. I love how you guys think games can't survive without your patronage. You forget that most of those types of gamers do not make it to end game in 3 to 6 months, let alone eat through end game content in that time either. You guys love making strawman arguments based on your own proclivities and not based on the target audience.
Still playing Skyrim here 3rd character over 700 hours of game time and still find new things to do and places I have not seen before.
Raids are not needed in TESO because it has AvA. If you have a raid mechanic in a mmo the pvp suffers from the gear grind which is what has happened in WoW. Raiding is not fun for many players its a thankless task which you HAVE to do to be on a level playing field in pvp. WoW has broken its own pvp mechanic by implementing the raids and this is seen via the pvp stat it now has in place.
now thats something! man, wow was a pure pve game and if it was something that make it less good, was pvp. wow is built to pve, either any1 likes it or not. pvp was out of nature and that was the mistake of blizz. if they just leave it as a pure pve...
pvpers would go elsewere as it was mended with wow, at least at its first steps.
What are you guys even talking about? That was done years and years ago....
WoW PvP is quite good actually....Way better than most mmos.
Your suggestion is to do what again? Have wow undo its fix to balance pvp and pve, so they can lose customers? I don't get it...
i didnt said to roll enything back. i think too that wow pvp even in its current state is at least descent. i m saying that wow started as a pve and not a pvp game and that the first problems and whines came with the implementation of pvp and not raids
i didnt said to roll enything back. i think too that wow pvp even in its current state is at least descent. i m saying that wow started as a pve and not a pvp game and that the first problems and whines came with the implementation of pvp and not raids
I didn't play WOW that long, 6 months I think. But when WOW first came out the PvP was open world flagging. Enemy territory you could be attacked by NPC's and if you flagged or decided to join an existing fight you got flagged. The arguments came when they started doing mini games for PvP, for rewards, totally negating any point for the OW PvP. While I primarily engaged in the PvE from time to time I did get involved in some OW PvP and a lot of the time it was fun. I didn't really go for it all the time because of the ability to abuse the disparity in levels (I prefer my PvP to be a challenge, and a one sided fight either way is just not fun for me).
So I would very much say that while the focus at the start was on the PvE, the PvP was there and actually had meaning. What kieed the PvP in WOW was introducing the mini games.
This is a deal breaker for me, gamers are becoming more lazy, they dont want to invest any kind of time or effort in to a game but they still want to wear the best gear, ride 400 differant mounts and basicly just have their hands held and told that their special no matter what.
Sporting the top teir gear in a game used to mean something, now MMOs have been ruined by game Devs pandering to these mouth breathers.
I'd rather do three times the hours in pvp to acquire the same progression it takes your average ankle-stabbing, aoe dodging, "i just read a guide and now we can do this scripted fight" raider. You know pvp right? That part of the game where it's not just a matter of standing outside void zones and beating enrage timers?
This is a deal breaker for me, gamers are becoming more lazy, they dont want to invest any kind of time or effort in to a game but they still want to wear the best gear, ride 400 differant mounts and basicly just have their hands held and told that their special no matter what.
Sporting the top teir gear in a game used to mean something, now MMOs have been ruined by game Devs pandering to these mouth breathers.
I'd rather do three times the hours in pvp to acquire the same progression it takes your average ankle-stabbing, aoe dodging, "i just read a guide and now we can do this scripted fight" raider. You know pvp right? That part of the game where it's not just a matter of standing outside void zones and beating enrage timers?
i can tell you've never done any real raids. you probably did lfr and think 'huh, raiding is easy'. it's okay, its okay.
i can tell you've never done any real raids. you probably did lfr and think 'huh, raiding is easy'. it's okay, its okay.
I have no idea what LFR is, the fact that you do kind of just reaffirms my bias. I just take offense to the idea that I want my gear easy because I don't want to spend an entire night stabbing ankles.
This is a deal breaker for me, gamers are becoming more lazy, they dont want to invest any kind of time or effort in to a game but they still want to wear the best gear, ride 400 differant mounts and basicly just have their hands held and told that their special no matter what.
Sporting the top teir gear in a game used to mean something, now MMOs have been ruined by game Devs pandering to these mouth breathers.
I'd rather do three times the hours in pvp to acquire the same progression it takes your average ankle-stabbing, aoe dodging, "i just read a guide and now we can do this scripted fight" raider. You know pvp right? That part of the game where it's not just a matter of standing outside void zones and beating enrage timers?
I'm with you on that. PVP is my end game, not raiding. I don't care if raiders get ubber lootz, however I start to care if I can't get similar gear through PVP'ing. Do I want the gear instantly? No, but I still want something very similar in stats that I can work for through progression and I don't want an extra PVP stat on the gear like "expertise" (lol) or "resilience". I actually liked WoW's first round of PVP armor when honor was first introduced, but before arenas. It took a lot to get the gear and plus you had to hold your rank which got harder and harder to do to get the better gear. Of course the raiders ended up still with the better gear and continued to do so as they kept adding raids to the game. I can't honestly say raiding is harder or easier than PVP'ing becuase I only did a few in WoTLK, but that was all the emo-teen-screaming-in-my-headset that I could handle. Not to mention the boss fights where just basically scripted fights.
i can tell you've never done any real raids. you probably did lfr and think 'huh, raiding is easy'. it's okay, its okay.
I have no idea what LFR is, the fact that you do kind of just reaffirms my bias. I just take offense to the idea that I want my gear easy because I don't want to spend an entire night stabbing ankles.
so let me get this right, you'd rather put in 3 times the work pvping to get the same gear progression than a raider, yet you at the same time "want your gear easy because you don't want to spend an entire night stabbing ankles"?
have fun in life with that kind of conflicting logic
i can tell you've never done any real raids. you probably did lfr and think 'huh, raiding is easy'. it's okay, its okay.
I have no idea what LFR is, the fact that you do kind of just reaffirms my bias. I just take offense to the idea that I want my gear easy because I don't want to spend an entire night stabbing ankles.
so let me get this right, you'd rather put in 3 times the work pvping to get the same gear progression than a raider, yet you at the same time "want your gear easy because you don't want to spend an entire night stabbing ankles"?
have fun in life with that kind of conflicting logic
Oh sorry, did I write that wrong? "I take offense to the idea" means that I do not like the assumption that he has made about players who do not like to raid/ do group pve content, the assumption being that these players want their gear/progression to be handed to them. Some of us simply do not like this playstyle and would happily spend more time in other aspects of the game to reach the same ceiling.
My english isn't that great but hopefully that makes it clear.
I'm with you on that. PVP is my end game, not raiding. I don't care if raiders get ubber lootz, however I start to care if I can't get similar gear through PVP'ing. Do I want the gear instantly? No, but I still want something very similar in stats that I can work for through progression and I don't want an extra PVP stat on the gear like "expertise" (lol) or "resilience". I actually liked WoW's first round of PVP armor when honor was first introduced, but before arenas. It took a lot to get the gear and plus you had to hold your rank which got harder and harder to do to get the better gear. Of course the raiders ended up still with the better gear and continued to do so as they kept adding raids to the game. I can't honestly say raiding is harder or easier than PVP'ing becuase I only did a few in WoTLK, but that was all the emo-teen-screaming-in-my-headset that I could handle. Not to mention the boss fights where just basically scripted fights.
Yeah, I just came back from a re-foray into TSW, wherein collecting my QL10 pvp set took forever in comparison to those who constantly "speed run" the pve content. I didn't mind the idea that people could get a QL10 set faster than me in pve because I didn't like pve. So tough for me However, I think the power creep from constantly introducing tougher pve content (and the carrots to go with it) has gone through the roof. PVE gear is at what 10.5 now? They practically one shot folks in QL10 and unfortunately QL10 is where the pvp gear is going to stay. It could take me maybe a week or two to get updated by going into dungeons but I won't. I don't like it. I just threw up my hands and resigned to my fate. TSW is a pve game with tacked on pvp.
Zenimax has made it seem like group based pve is the gratuity here and not the focus and I hope it stays like that. I'd like to see that everyone has their playstyles accomodated at least somewhat but I'd also really appreciate it if they kind of avoided the power creep and stat inflation of increasing gear tiers. That's it! that's all.
i can tell you've never done any real raids. you probably did lfr and think 'huh, raiding is easy'. it's okay, its okay.
I have no idea what LFR is, the fact that you do kind of just reaffirms my bias. I just take offense to the idea that I want my gear easy because I don't want to spend an entire night stabbing ankles.
Because running around pillars for 20 mins is so damn fun and skillful.
Originally posted by shalissar
Originally posted by rodingo
I'm with you on that. PVP is my end game, not raiding. I don't care if raiders get ubber lootz, however I start to care if I can't get similar gear through PVP'ing. Do I want the gear instantly? No, but I still want something very similar in stats that I can work for through progression and I don't want an extra PVP stat on the gear like "expertise" (lol) or "resilience". I actually liked WoW's first round of PVP armor when honor was first introduced, but before arenas. It took a lot to get the gear and plus you had to hold your rank which got harder and harder to do to get the better gear. Of course the raiders ended up still with the better gear and continued to do so as they kept adding raids to the game. I can't honestly say raiding is harder or easier than PVP'ing becuase I only did a few in WoTLK, but that was all the emo-teen-screaming-in-my-headset that I could handle. Not to mention the boss fights where just basically scripted fights.
Yeah, I just came back from a re-foray into TSW, wherein collecting my QL10 pvp set took forever in comparison to those who constantly "speed run" the pve content. I didn't mind the idea that people could get a QL10 set faster than me in pve because I didn't like pve. So tough for me However, I think the power creep from constantly introducing tougher pve content (and the carrots to go with it) has gone through the roof. PVE gear is at what 10.5 now? They practically one shot folks in QL10 and unfortunately QL10 is where the pvp gear is going to stay. It could take me maybe a week or two to get updated by going into dungeons but I won't. I don't like it. I just threw up my hands and resigned to my fate. TSW is a pve game with tacked on pvp.
Zenimax has made it seem like group based pve is the gratuity here and not the focus and I hope it stays like that. I'd like to see that everyone has their playstyles accomodated at least somewhat but I'd also really appreciate it if they kind of avoided the power creep and stat inflation of increasing gear tiers. That's it! that's all.
TSW is the worst MMO i have ever played by far. Funcom only makes trash.
I think you can upgrade your gear via pvp though...
i can tell you've never done any real raids. you probably did lfr and think 'huh, raiding is easy'. it's okay, its okay.
I have no idea what LFR is, the fact that you do kind of just reaffirms my bias. I just take offense to the idea that I want my gear easy because I don't want to spend an entire night stabbing ankles.
Because running around pillars is so damn skillful...
LOL what is "running around pillars"?
I play Darkfall (oh god not anymore), Mortal Online and to some extent, AoC. I can't recall any "running around pillars", though I occasionally do use terrain to get away from spontaneous bursts of butt blasting fury.
Why don't you people understand you are the small minority?
Every game dev since WoW has catered to you casuals, and every single one of the games has flopped.
You really aren't basing your argument in anything concrete.
There is so much wrong in yoru statments that it's hard to know where to begin.
First of all, your initial statment in another post is that mmo's since wow have put raiding on the back burner and they have flopped". Which is specious reasoning.
They could have flopped for any number of reasons none of them particularly point to lack of raiding. Sure, raiding is a type of end game progression activity but you assume that the hordes of players out there who left these games left them because of no raiding. Maybe they left because of lack of pvp? I know in SWToR I got to one level under cap and left because I had nothing of interest to do but never enteratained raiding as an option. I would have preferred a more "real and robust" pvp enviroment. Or alternate advancement.
Some of these games were buggy, weren't really thought out well, etc. You would have to actually prove that they flopped because players uniformly said "what? No raiding? We're out of here!"
Secondly, as far as a minority, remember that just skyrim alone sold 10 million units. of course not all those players are going to be interested in an mmo but that's not really a minority of players. It's a sizable chunk of elder scrolls fans from which one might make the leap that if 10 million people bought skyrim alone (not to mentioned Obvlion, Daggerfall, Morrowind) then we might be able to convert those players to an online game.
Secondly "you casuals' really means that you have no grasp on what that word means. I would, to your credit, say that "yes' there are casual players who want to put in minimal effort for maximum award and I would agree that isn't a good way to go. However, casual also means "just having X amount of time and therefore they can only spend so much time playing". It doesn't automatically point to them wanting it easy. It points to them not having loads of time because of other things in their lives.
I would venture to guess that a good many hardcore mmo players are now casual simply because their lives have evolved to include many other things such as a more robust carreer, a family, additional hobbies that "a more robust career" might allow them to enjoy. But I bet many of them are still engaged by challenging content.
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Comments
Your first assumption is pretty "off".
What is the end game in morrowind? How about Oblvion? Ok, fine, how about Skyrim?
and yet I played Morrowind for 2 years, Obvlion from launch until they launched skyrim and I've been playing Skyrim since its launch.
and yet "what is the end game?"
for me, it's different characters that have different motivations and that do things differently from one encounter to another.
I thought I was pretty much alone in this until I met a whole slew of elder scrolls players who played the exact same way. And they had played daggerfall which they said felt like the "neverending game".
I'm not concerned about Elder Scrolls players finding things to do provided the game incorporates "Elder Scrolls things to do". Regardless of your feeling toward these players.
The second statement (above) I agree with.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Well,....Death Watch Bunker was for the most part a raid. Or at least you needed around 10-20 people depending on their professions, buffs, level of skill, and little bit of luck that nothing got bugged in the bunker while you were there.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
Still playing Skyrim here 3rd character over 700 hours of game time and still find new things to do and places I have not seen before.
Raids are not needed in TESO because it has AvA. If you have a raid mechanic in a mmo the pvp suffers from the gear grind which is what has happened in WoW. Raiding is not fun for many players its a thankless task which you HAVE to do to be on a level playing field in pvp. WoW has broken its own pvp mechanic by implementing the raids and this is seen via the pvp stat it now has in place.
Don't worry bitch enough on all the forum sites and Devs are likely to add in 740 man raiding zones. It's official ZOS will cave to what ever faction of players scream the loudest at the detriment to the overarching game design. At this point they need to take this game back to the drawing board and totally remove any vestige of AvA PvP in Cryodill. Because it sure isn't going to be as rewarding as DAoC was.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Though it bears mentioning again that if some sort of "raiding" was incorporated into the game it wouldn't have to be like that. There doesn't have to be a raiding treadmill.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
All the mmos that have come out since wow have put raidiing on the side burner, and they all flopped.
THey all had pvp and quests and farming and crafting, but 99.9% of people can't do that for more than a couple mojnths.
GW2 content easy? Hmmm.... let me se you solo a Champion at any level... let alone the harder world bosses.
Ah the vitreolic anger about something that probably should never have been in the game in the first place from players who are just interested in DAoC 2.
You know, there is a little game called Camelot Unchained that seems to actually be wedded to the whole 3 faction/realm pride DAoC proccess. Sans pve of course. Still, I sense that the real issue is always the pvp with this particular group of players.
Why this group doesn't understand that an Elder Scrolls game might have Elder Scrolls players interested in it being rooted in Elder Scrolls gameplay is beyond me.
And yet, if there was a DAoC 2 being made I strongly suspect that anyone going in and making suggestions that were never a strong part of the DAoC philosophy would be met with the same questions from the DAoC fans. "Why add that to DAoC 2 when it was never a part of DAoC to begin with?."
Well that's what's happening here.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Why don't you people understand you are the small minority?
Every game dev since WoW has catered to you casuals, and every single one of the games has flopped.
now thats something! man, wow was a pure pve game and if it was something that make it less good, was pvp. wow is built to pve, either any1 likes it or not. pvp was out of nature and that was the mistake of blizz. if they just leave it as a pure pve...
pvpers would go elsewere as it was mended with wow, at least at its first steps.
What are you guys even talking about? That was done years and years ago....
WoW PvP is quite good actually....Way better than most mmos.
Your suggestion is to do what again? Have wow undo its fix to balance pvp and pve, so they can lose customers? I don't get it...
i didnt said to roll enything back. i think too that wow pvp even in its current state is at least descent. i m saying that wow started as a pve and not a pvp game and that the first problems and whines came with the implementation of pvp and not raids
Learn some WoW history, then some grammar please.
-+1s his grammar nazi ranking-
I didn't play WOW that long, 6 months I think. But when WOW first came out the PvP was open world flagging. Enemy territory you could be attacked by NPC's and if you flagged or decided to join an existing fight you got flagged. The arguments came when they started doing mini games for PvP, for rewards, totally negating any point for the OW PvP. While I primarily engaged in the PvE from time to time I did get involved in some OW PvP and a lot of the time it was fun. I didn't really go for it all the time because of the ability to abuse the disparity in levels (I prefer my PvP to be a challenge, and a one sided fight either way is just not fun for me).
So I would very much say that while the focus at the start was on the PvE, the PvP was there and actually had meaning. What kieed the PvP in WOW was introducing the mini games.
I'd rather do three times the hours in pvp to acquire the same progression it takes your average ankle-stabbing, aoe dodging, "i just read a guide and now we can do this scripted fight" raider. You know pvp right? That part of the game where it's not just a matter of standing outside void zones and beating enrage timers?
i can tell you've never done any real raids. you probably did lfr and think 'huh, raiding is easy'. it's okay, its okay.
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
I have no idea what LFR is, the fact that you do kind of just reaffirms my bias. I just take offense to the idea that I want my gear easy because I don't want to spend an entire night stabbing ankles.
I'm with you on that. PVP is my end game, not raiding. I don't care if raiders get ubber lootz, however I start to care if I can't get similar gear through PVP'ing. Do I want the gear instantly? No, but I still want something very similar in stats that I can work for through progression and I don't want an extra PVP stat on the gear like "expertise" (lol) or "resilience". I actually liked WoW's first round of PVP armor when honor was first introduced, but before arenas. It took a lot to get the gear and plus you had to hold your rank which got harder and harder to do to get the better gear. Of course the raiders ended up still with the better gear and continued to do so as they kept adding raids to the game. I can't honestly say raiding is harder or easier than PVP'ing becuase I only did a few in WoTLK, but that was all the emo-teen-screaming-in-my-headset that I could handle. Not to mention the boss fights where just basically scripted fights.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
so let me get this right, you'd rather put in 3 times the work pvping to get the same gear progression than a raider, yet you at the same time "want your gear easy because you don't want to spend an entire night stabbing ankles"?
have fun in life with that kind of conflicting logic
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
Oh sorry, did I write that wrong? "I take offense to the idea" means that I do not like the assumption that he has made about players who do not like to raid/ do group pve content, the assumption being that these players want their gear/progression to be handed to them. Some of us simply do not like this playstyle and would happily spend more time in other aspects of the game to reach the same ceiling.
My english isn't that great but hopefully that makes it clear.
Yeah, I just came back from a re-foray into TSW, wherein collecting my QL10 pvp set took forever in comparison to those who constantly "speed run" the pve content. I didn't mind the idea that people could get a QL10 set faster than me in pve because I didn't like pve. So tough for me
However, I think the power creep from constantly introducing tougher pve content (and the carrots to go with it) has gone through the roof. PVE gear is at what 10.5 now? They practically one shot folks in QL10 and unfortunately QL10 is where the pvp gear is going to stay. It could take me maybe a week or two to get updated by going into dungeons but I won't. I don't like it. I just threw up my hands and resigned to my fate. TSW is a pve game with tacked on pvp.
Zenimax has made it seem like group based pve is the gratuity here and not the focus and I hope it stays like that. I'd like to see that everyone has their playstyles accomodated at least somewhat but I'd also really appreciate it if they kind of avoided the power creep and stat inflation of increasing gear tiers. That's it! that's all.
Because running around pillars for 20 mins is so damn fun and skillful.
TSW is the worst MMO i have ever played by far. Funcom only makes trash.
I think you can upgrade your gear via pvp though...
LOL what is "running around pillars"?
I play Darkfall (oh god not anymore), Mortal Online and to some extent, AoC. I can't recall any "running around pillars", though I occasionally do use terrain to get away from spontaneous bursts of butt blasting fury.
You really aren't basing your argument in anything concrete.
There is so much wrong in yoru statments that it's hard to know where to begin.
First of all, your initial statment in another post is that mmo's since wow have put raiding on the back burner and they have flopped". Which is specious reasoning.
They could have flopped for any number of reasons none of them particularly point to lack of raiding. Sure, raiding is a type of end game progression activity but you assume that the hordes of players out there who left these games left them because of no raiding. Maybe they left because of lack of pvp? I know in SWToR I got to one level under cap and left because I had nothing of interest to do but never enteratained raiding as an option. I would have preferred a more "real and robust" pvp enviroment. Or alternate advancement.
Some of these games were buggy, weren't really thought out well, etc. You would have to actually prove that they flopped because players uniformly said "what? No raiding? We're out of here!"
Secondly, as far as a minority, remember that just skyrim alone sold 10 million units. of course not all those players are going to be interested in an mmo but that's not really a minority of players. It's a sizable chunk of elder scrolls fans from which one might make the leap that if 10 million people bought skyrim alone (not to mentioned Obvlion, Daggerfall, Morrowind) then we might be able to convert those players to an online game.
Secondly "you casuals' really means that you have no grasp on what that word means. I would, to your credit, say that "yes' there are casual players who want to put in minimal effort for maximum award and I would agree that isn't a good way to go. However, casual also means "just having X amount of time and therefore they can only spend so much time playing". It doesn't automatically point to them wanting it easy. It points to them not having loads of time because of other things in their lives.
I would venture to guess that a good many hardcore mmo players are now casual simply because their lives have evolved to include many other things such as a more robust carreer, a family, additional hobbies that "a more robust career" might allow them to enjoy. But I bet many of them are still engaged by challenging content.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo