Yes most ranters about game's difficulty (especially nowadays) are usually haters and trolls who never completed the really hard parts of the game they bash.
BUT no one can deny the general dumbing down in most AAAs' difficulty.
Taking WoW as an exemple is cheating. It was actually one of its main quality : many difficulty "levels" to content every kind of PvE gamer. And yes it has a huge comunity so there's a huge comunity of trolls. Whining about difficulty is (/was) indeed trolling in WOW.
Look at this other exemple : SWTOR... where 90% (almost not kidding on the number) of the hardcore/vet PvE players left right after the 1.2 patch (5 or 6 months after the release) who was supposed to be THE "hight-end" PvE patch. Most decent guilds had no problem beating the Denova instance on its harder setting during the test server and most hardcore guilds who did wait for the official release had no problem beating it in a very fiew nights... Next PvE releases were even easier...Whining about difficulty seems legit there.
Those are, in my opinion , the two differents colors of the picture... and I'm afraid that there is at least as much legit complains as angry trolls.
I mean seriously : name me a close release with quality and really competitive/hard PvE ?
Old school french hardcore whiner. Online since T4C.
I was "Namless" and "Daroot" in AO (Rk2) Been known as "Vindicar" (Aion (EU), SWTOR (EU), WoW (EU). Recently Known as "Wundicar" and "Wundee" in Age of Wushu (US) and Wulin (EU)
Franky Rivera Reyes , From the Reyes Brotherhood (Star Citizen)
Originally posted by Disdena Oh nonsense. MMOs are easy. Any and all MMO content can be beaten by pressing 1 2 3 1 1 1 1. An internet forum user said so in a dismissive manner, and I have it on good authority that they know everything.
Obviously I guess you have been so far playing only Hello Kitty online. :-)
Diablo 3 is probably the worst example you could ever give. The difficulty was nerfed repeatedly because only a few classes that had spent hundreds of hours farming an easier difficulty could complete the difficulty. It was literally as easy as
(useless stuff eliminated)
You said it .. nerfed repeated .. why .. because it is too difficult.
And not everyone plays DH, and not everyone plays for hundred of hours.
And now, even with hundred of hours .. unless you are super lucky and have billions and billions of equipment, MP10 is still diffcult.
Diablo 3 is probably the worst example you could ever give. The difficulty was nerfed repeatedly because only a few classes that had spent hundreds of hours farming an easier difficulty could complete the difficulty. It was literally as easy as
(useless stuff eliminated)
You said it .. nerfed repeated .. why .. because it is too difficult.
And not everyone plays DH, and not everyone plays for hundred of hours.
And now, even with hundred of hours .. unless you are super lucky and have billions and billions of equipment, MP10 is still diffcult.
Yes, too difficult for the newer generation of kids, whom have not learned coping skills, or perseverance..!
Easy mode.. hard mode... ?
Any MMO that has a difficulty setting, is arcade and meant for entertainment, not as a litmus test, challange or rop. Modes are spoon-feeding mechanics, meant to aid those less fortunate humans, a hand... , when they see others around them passing them up. "Easy" mode is for people who need to be coddled & unable to overcome.
Easy mode allow others to "feel" good about themselves, for at least trying. Modes are a reward system for being lazy, or incompetent...
edit:
Many oldschool roleplayers (like the old Ultima Series) and certainly EQ's early mantra of; "You're in Our WOrld now...!" The rational to a MMORPG is "Here it is... solve it."
(ie: deal with it).... & if you and your friends could not figure it out (ie: beat it), you moved on.. or recruited more to solve this personal goal (ie personal quest).
Perseverance^ (it is the exact same thing Lord British says is missing in roleplaying games)
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
Er, most people play video games to have fun, not to overcome a personal challenge. If you want the rewards of overcoming/persevering, video games tend to not offer much. People who work hard during the day and want to come home to something that's fun, rather than mentally draining, are the majority of the MMO audience.
I'm glad the O.P admits the community at large thinks MMOs are too easy.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
You're given a math test. There are 10 questions on it. 3 questions are addition/subtraction problems. 3 questions are multiply/divide problems. 3 questions are fraction/decimal work. 1 question goes into calculus.
Do you find this test is easy or hard?
Let's throw some variables in the mix. - Test 1 has you answer only 5 of the question. You choose which ones to answer. - Test 2 allows the use of calculators, but you answer all 10 questions. - Test 3 requires answers to all 10 questions without the use of a calculator.
Now which tests are easy? Or hard?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Forum Guy #1 "MMOs are so easy! The quest of ultimate truth was a faceroll!! Give me a challenge!"
Forum Guy #2 "Wow, I thought it was kind of hard. I died twice trying to complete that quest chain. Forum Guy #1 must be a REALLY GOOD PLAYER!"
Forum Guy #1 "Thank you for acknowledging my leetness!"
Basically, Forum Guy #1 just wants his epeen stroked.
.. without even trying the hard content. I suppose those who complaint but always find excuses not to do hard content is just trying to stroke their ego without doing the work.
Now if the paragon guys come here and complains about WOW raid is easy, then i will listen.
Forum Guy #1 "MMOs are so easy! The quest of ultimate truth was a faceroll!! Give me a challenge!"
Forum Guy #2 "Wow, I thought it was kind of hard. I died twice trying to complete that quest chain. Forum Guy #1 must be a REALLY GOOD PLAYER!"
Forum Guy #1 "Thank you for acknowledging my leetness!"
Basically, Forum Guy #1 just wants his epeen stroked.
.. without even trying the hard content. I suppose those who complaint but always find excuses not to do hard content is just trying to stroke their ego without doing the work.
Now if the paragon guys come here and complains about WOW raid is easy, then i will listen.
Is it fairer to judge the difficulty of a game by a handful of difficult encounters or by some overall assessment of the content? I tend towards the latter because it is so easy for developers to tack some impossible content on to a game which is basically very easy.
The release version of Wrath of the Lich King was guilty of this to some extent: In the entire expansion (at release) there were a couple of heroic encounters that were challenging for well-organised raiding guilds but the rest of the content was significantly, often laughably easier. My friends in a serious raiding guild hated it, my friends in more casual guilds loved it.
In fairness to WoW this is just a particular example and I think WoW has usually had a fair amount of difficult and sometimes very difficult content. Generally it does a good job of appealing to a wide range of players.
However, I don't think there is any myth to be dispelled here. Given how the gaming demographic has changed over the years it would frankly be amazing and inexplicable if the average level of difficulty remained mysteriously unchanged throughout. And I don't see many assertions that games have actually become harder.
"This isn't a WoW-specific issue or even one limited to MMOs. Gamers from all disciplines seem to be fond of complaining about games being easy without actually attempting anything to accomplish difficult. Big Huge Games noted in a GDC 2012 talk that "too easy" was a common complaint about Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning, even though two-thirds of its players completed it on the easiest difficulty setting. BioWare's awesome infographic for Mass Effect 3, shown at last week's PAX East, showed that only four percent of players completed the game on "Insanity" difficulty. The "hardcore" in text don't seem to be all that "hardcore" in practice."
"So the next time you find yourself typing "too easy" in a comment box, maybe you should consider whether you've actually tried the hard stuff before you click the post button."
This is so true. Many other examples. WOW's famous Sunwell is done only by 2%. Even when LFR first came out, the "normal" mode is done only by 4% where LFR is done by a whopping 35% of the players.
Take D3 as another example. You can make the game highly difficulty with perma death. How many kill Diablo on MP10 hard core?
Hard modes and "insanity" settings are bandaids that add little or NO value to the gaming experience.
When hardcore players say they want hardmode they want the whole game to be hard so it builds community. Getting to level cap in older MMOs used to be a real acomplishment and it was usally impossible to solo through. Getting the Everquest EPIC done was a huge deal that took months and lot of team work. It wasn't something you just solo'ed though in a single weekend. Without community backing you weren't getting that epic done. So you kind of had to play the social game as well and that is what made it really hard. Players had to unite in the adversity of the more difficult game world. That is what hardmode is really about.
So when people say hardmode what they are really saying is they want community and sence of purpose. This a fundamental human want that will never go away. Modern games don't fill this human need though. It is a psycological aspect that makes those older games work.
I don't think that's true at all. Yes, players want community and a sense of purpose, but I don't think that's where they want the difficulty to be. In fact, most players that I've spoken to HATE that element of MMO's--the politics, the ridiculous cooperation required to coordinate events, loot distribution, group grinding, etc.
Plenty of games demonstrate that difficulty settings like Hard Modes are major factors in the success of the game. In any skill-based game, scaling difficult is virtually a requirement to ensure that the game is fun--this IS supported by decades of psychological research.
No, I think when most people say that they want challenge, they mean that they want more challenging gameplay, and if anything, LESS social challenge. Social challenges are stressful, and can even be harmful to player self-esteem, in a way that gameplay challenges are not.
In either case, it's definitely not true that difficult settings add little value to games. In many cases, they define the value of the game. e.g., imagine if Guitar Hero only had an Easy Mode. It wouldn't be nearly as successful without the Medium, Hard, and Expert settings. This is true of a very large number of games throughout history.
Then don't...
If a Player doesn't like like coordinated events, ridiculious coordination, etc.. then they don't have to partake in them.
But also understand that those rewards are for those who CAN do those things. When u have moAr to go wrong, then it inevitably will.. = risk. The social aspect of guilds (& thus raiding) is a part of a social game. Though... if your a loner or a solo'er u don't even have to be concerned with such things and go along and live (play) about your merry way.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
Is it fairer to judge the difficulty of a game by a handful of difficult encounters or by some overall assessment of the content? I tend towards the latter because it is so easy for developers to tack some impossible content on to a game which is basically very easy.
Yes, if the statement is "challenging content is AVAILABLE" in the game. Is it fair to say it is an easy game when there *is* difficulty content and people avoid it?
Originally posted by Ebonyfly Is it fairer to judge the difficulty of a game by a handful of difficult encounters or by some overall assessment of the content? I tend towards the latter because it is so easy for developers to tack some impossible content on to a game which is basically very easy.
Yes exactly. Experiences should be 'categorized' as a whole; not based on a few select elements. For example, should I say the weather in Phoenix is perfect and use the few nice days in spring to back my assertion? Especially since most of the year the weather sucks.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
If everyone in the world invested as much time into raiding progression as guilds like Paragon did, then nearly everyone would be on the level of guilds like Paragon as it doesn't require much intelligence or muscle memory to perform at the level Paragon does, it just boils down to time investment and efficiency/focus.
I doubt that. Some of the scripted mechanics in WOW boss fights need a lot of coordination and memory to pull off. I remember practicing boss fights wipe after wipe when i was in a progression guild some years ago.
I doubt everyone with time can pull it off. A small mistake and it is a wipe. You timing is off and it is a wipe. You forget to do something and it is a wipe. You fail to notice somethign on the ground and it is a wipe.
Are you talking about EQ^ ..?
Wizard cast a spell too early, or wrong one, or have a fizzle... a damn fizzle.. and 4 hours (x 43 people) of thrilling anticipation gone! With only perseverrance to hold your head high and learn from your mistakes & mishaps.
Very few boss mobs in WoW required nothing other than zerg tactics... until that was so easy they left creativity behind and decided on an easier rout themselves and created "hard mode" instances. Very few raid mobs required EQ'esque timing of spells & agression control. Crafting or finding a Lure spell wasn't enough, your spell wasn't garaunteed to land ..& THAT ..is what made EQ's combat exciting and dynamic. U never knew..
Compairing anything to WoW, is eactly like compairing it to McDonalds.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
If everyone in the world invested as much time into raiding progression as guilds like Paragon did, then nearly everyone would be on the level of guilds like Paragon as it doesn't require much intelligence or muscle memory to perform at the level Paragon does, it just boils down to time investment and efficiency/focus.
I doubt that. Some of the scripted mechanics in WOW boss fights need a lot of coordination and memory to pull off. I remember practicing boss fights wipe after wipe when i was in a progression guild some years ago.
I doubt everyone with time can pull it off. A small mistake and it is a wipe. You timing is off and it is a wipe. You forget to do something and it is a wipe. You fail to notice somethign on the ground and it is a wipe.
Are you talking about EQ^ ..?
Wizard cast a spell too early, or wrong one, or have a fizzle... a damn fizzle.. and 4 hours (x 43 people) of thrilling anticipation gone! With only perseverrance to hold your head high and learn from your mistakes & mishaps.
Very few boss mobs in WoW required nothing other than zerg tactics... until that was so easy they left creativity behind and decided on an easier rout themselves and created "hard mode" instances. Very few raid mobs required EQ'esque timing of spells & agression control. Crafting or finding a Lure spell wasn't enough, your spell wasn't garaunteed to land ..& THAT ..is what made EQ's combat exciting and dynamic. U never knew..
Compairing anything to WoW, is eactly like compairing it to McDonalds.
show me your wowarmory of your character with on-level raid progression boss kills. LFR is not real raids. stop posting if all you're gonna type is shit that comes out of a bull's ass.
WoW on a whole makes shit easy and just hands things to its players. WoW raids are not easy. LFR is easy. The actual normal raids are much harder though still somewhat easy and not especially difficult. The heroic modes are by far not easy. Not to the point that you can call it blankly 'easy'.
If everyone in the world invested as much time into raiding progression as guilds like Paragon did, then nearly everyone would be on the level of guilds like Paragon as it doesn't require much intelligence or muscle memory to perform at the level Paragon does, it just boils down to time investment and efficiency/focus.
I doubt that. Some of the scripted mechanics in WOW boss fights need a lot of coordination and memory to pull off. I remember practicing boss fights wipe after wipe when i was in a progression guild some years ago.
I doubt everyone with time can pull it off. A small mistake and it is a wipe. You timing is off and it is a wipe. You forget to do something and it is a wipe. You fail to notice somethign on the ground and it is a wipe.
Are you talking about EQ^ ..?
Wizard cast a spell too early, or wrong one, or have a fizzle... a damn fizzle.. and 4 hours (x 43 people) of thrilling anticipation gone! With only perseverrance to hold your head high and learn from your mistakes & mishaps.
Very few boss mobs in WoW required nothing other than zerg tactics... until that was so easy they left creativity behind and decided on an easier rout themselves and created "hard mode" instances. Very few raid mobs required EQ'esque timing of spells & agression control. Crafting or finding a Lure spell wasn't enough, your spell wasn't garaunteed to land ..& THAT ..is what made EQ's combat exciting and dynamic. U never knew..
Compairing anything to WoW, is eactly like compairing it to McDonalds.
show me your wowarmory of your character with on-level raid progression boss kills. LFR is not real raids. stop posting if all you're gonna type is shit that comes out of a bull's ass.
WoW on a whole makes shit easy and just hands things to its players. WoW raids are not easy. LFR is easy. The actual normal raids are much harder though still somewhat easy and not especially difficult. The heroic modes are by far not easy. Not to the point that you can call it blankly 'easy'.
Dude.. you are talking about (after 7 + years) WoW's raids eventually got uber...
Nobody cares at that point, because it turned into what EQ had... a instanced raid dungeon of flipping flags. Elits bosses aside.. far less WoW mobs requires skill. EQ mobs got eaier and eaiser after 2004... you have no bearing on the ubject/topic. I don't think your reference point is old enough.
WoW easy ~ hard modes.. compared to each other has no bearing on a single player (Leeeroy jenkins) messes up. In every day, every hour EQ pick-up-groups.. if you wizard wasn't meding while your tank was tanking... he is a retard, because that meant if his late-fight mana dump (to burn the creature down from 30% to 0.. in mere seconds..) with just one fizzle may leave him without enough Mana to cast his last spell... which 30s more of meding would've allowed.
Simple, mindful things were & are no longer present... but they happened and boldned the early EQ base... we know those hardships of ultra-challenges. Because we lost moAr than just time if we failed... in WoW it was all arcade! You didn't have to go back and get your corpse, or take off from work and get another guild inolved..!
WoW was easy, because you actually risk nothing... doesn't matter how "hard" Blizzard says a dungeon is... the game is Fisher Price!
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
Wow is a good example of this.In vanilla the pain you had to go through,to get even the full dungeon set.After that 40 man raids came along,with their dkp systems.This is just a few examples.After all that,i dont like the way you get loots etc.. in wow nowadays.Medium difficulty could be good.With all that said.MMo's to me now are just Life Draining.Sure i'll still play them,and getting bored so quickly.
Originally posted by Ebonyfly Is it fairer to judge the difficulty of a game by a handful of difficult encounters or by some overall assessment of the content? I tend towards the latter because it is so easy for developers to tack some impossible content on to a game which is basically very easy.
Yes exactly. Experiences should be 'categorized' as a whole; not based on a few select elements. For example, should I say the weather in Phoenix is perfect and use the few nice days in spring to back my assertion? Especially since most of the year the weather sucks.
There is no such thing as a "whole" experience, because people choose different ones.
Is WOW super hard when a raid guild spend 100% of their time in hard mode raid... while some newbie spends 100% of his time on easy quests?
Is WOW super hard when a raid guild spend 100% of their time in hard mode raid... while some newbie spends 100% of his time on easy quests?
Yes and yes.
And you know what?
MMOs have really always been this way.
Camping Skeletons in UO with some friends for my Power Hour gains was supor easy. As was fighting those Blade elemental summons for Parry/Magic Resist gains.
Solo kiting dragons with Archery and bandage-swap tagging Liche Lords was super hard.
Running CH groups on Dantooine was super easy in SWG. Trying to solo/2-man Force Witches or whatever on the Rancor planet (can't remember the name right now) was super hard. Dathomir? Something like that.
Leveling and doing regular dungeons was always easy in WoW.
Even 10 man UBRS groups or Emperor runs in BRD weren't that hard.
Is WOW super hard when a raid guild spend 100% of their time in hard mode raid... while some newbie spends 100% of his time on easy quests?
Yes and yes.
And you know what?
MMOs have really always been this way.
So in this case, i will say it settles the question. If someone is complaining about how "easy" a MMO is, advice him to form a hardcore raiding guild, and tackle the most difficult content.
It has the added challenge of managing a bunch of people. Or may be just try to join Paragon.
The content doesnt change whether you beat it on normal or on hard. In Wow especially, the difference between normal gear and heroic gear is inconsequential and is more about E-peen bragging rights. The problem with the genre is its moving away from immersion and more towards instant accomplishments.
Originally posted by osiriszoran The content doesnt change whether you beat it on normal or on hard. In Wow especially, the difference between normal gear and heroic gear is inconsequential and is more about E-peen bragging rights. The problem with the genre is its moving away from immersion and more towards instant accomplishments.
Why is this a problem when people like it? Immersion is not everything. It should not be in the way of fun. And if people find epleen, gearscore, wow-progress fun .. more power to these tools.
If everyone in the world invested as much time into raiding progression as guilds like Paragon did, then nearly everyone would be on the level of guilds like Paragon as it doesn't require much intelligence or muscle memory to perform at the level Paragon does, it just boils down to time investment and efficiency/focus.
I doubt that. Some of the scripted mechanics in WOW boss fights need a lot of coordination and memory to pull off. I remember practicing boss fights wipe after wipe when i was in a progression guild some years ago.
I doubt everyone with time can pull it off. A small mistake and it is a wipe. You timing is off and it is a wipe. You forget to do something and it is a wipe. You fail to notice somethign on the ground and it is a wipe.
Are you talking about EQ^ ..?
Wizard cast a spell too early, or wrong one, or have a fizzle... a damn fizzle.. and 4 hours (x 43 people) of thrilling anticipation gone! With only perseverrance to hold your head high and learn from your mistakes & mishaps.
Very few boss mobs in WoW required nothing other than zerg tactics... until that was so easy they left creativity behind and decided on an easier rout themselves and created "hard mode" instances. Very few raid mobs required EQ'esque timing of spells & agression control. Crafting or finding a Lure spell wasn't enough, your spell wasn't garaunteed to land ..& THAT ..is what made EQ's combat exciting and dynamic. U never knew..
Compairing anything to WoW, is eactly like compairing it to McDonalds.
show me your wowarmory of your character with on-level raid progression boss kills. LFR is not real raids. stop posting if all you're gonna type is shit that comes out of a bull's ass.
WoW on a whole makes shit easy and just hands things to its players. WoW raids are not easy. LFR is easy. The actual normal raids are much harder though still somewhat easy and not especially difficult. The heroic modes are by far not easy. Not to the point that you can call it blankly 'easy'.
Dude.. you are talking about (after 7 + years) WoW's raids eventually got uber...
I am pretty sure Sunwell was one of the lowest cleared raid instances in WoW's history due to how hard it was when it was current, and that sure as hell wasn't 7+ years in lol
Originally posted by osiriszoran The content doesnt change whether you beat it on normal or on hard. In Wow especially, the difference between normal gear and heroic gear is inconsequential and is more about E-peen bragging rights. The problem with the genre is its moving away from immersion and more towards instant accomplishments.
Why is this a problem when people like it? Immersion is not everything. It should not be in the way of fun. And if people find epleen, gearscore, wow-progress fun .. more power to these tools.
Comments
half agree, half disagree...
I see a lots of black n white statements....
Yes most ranters about game's difficulty (especially nowadays) are usually haters and trolls who never completed the really hard parts of the game they bash.
BUT no one can deny the general dumbing down in most AAAs' difficulty.
Taking WoW as an exemple is cheating. It was actually one of its main quality : many difficulty "levels" to content every kind of PvE gamer. And yes it has a huge comunity so there's a huge comunity of trolls. Whining about difficulty is (/was) indeed trolling in WOW.
Look at this other exemple : SWTOR... where 90% (almost not kidding on the number) of the hardcore/vet PvE players left right after the 1.2 patch (5 or 6 months after the release) who was supposed to be THE "hight-end" PvE patch. Most decent guilds had no problem beating the Denova instance on its harder setting during the test server and most hardcore guilds who did wait for the official release had no problem beating it in a very fiew nights... Next PvE releases were even easier...Whining about difficulty seems legit there.
Those are, in my opinion , the two differents colors of the picture... and I'm afraid that there is at least as much legit complains as angry trolls.
I mean seriously : name me a close release with quality and really competitive/hard PvE ?
Old school french hardcore whiner. Online since T4C.
I was "Namless" and "Daroot" in AO (Rk2)
Been known as "Vindicar" (Aion (EU), SWTOR (EU), WoW (EU).
Recently Known as "Wundicar" and "Wundee" in Age of Wushu (US) and Wulin (EU)
Franky Rivera Reyes , From the Reyes Brotherhood (Star Citizen)
Obviously I guess you have been so far playing only Hello Kitty online. :-)
You said it .. nerfed repeated .. why .. because it is too difficult.
And not everyone plays DH, and not everyone plays for hundred of hours.
And now, even with hundred of hours .. unless you are super lucky and have billions and billions of equipment, MP10 is still diffcult.
Yes, too difficult for the newer generation of kids, whom have not learned coping skills, or perseverance..!
Easy mode.. hard mode... ?
Any MMO that has a difficulty setting, is arcade and meant for entertainment, not as a litmus test, challange or rop. Modes are spoon-feeding mechanics, meant to aid those less fortunate humans, a hand... , when they see others around them passing them up. "Easy" mode is for people who need to be coddled & unable to overcome.
Easy mode allow others to "feel" good about themselves, for at least trying. Modes are a reward system for being lazy, or incompetent...
edit:
Many oldschool roleplayers (like the old Ultima Series) and certainly EQ's early mantra of; "You're in Our WOrld now...!" The rational to a MMORPG is "Here it is... solve it."
(ie: deal with it).... & if you and your friends could not figure it out (ie: beat it), you moved on.. or recruited more to solve this personal goal (ie personal quest).
Perseverance^ (it is the exact same thing Lord British says is missing in roleplaying games)
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
I'm glad the O.P admits the community at large thinks MMOs are too easy.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
You're given a math test. There are 10 questions on it.
3 questions are addition/subtraction problems.
3 questions are multiply/divide problems.
3 questions are fraction/decimal work.
1 question goes into calculus.
Do you find this test is easy or hard?
Let's throw some variables in the mix.
- Test 1 has you answer only 5 of the question. You choose which ones to answer.
- Test 2 allows the use of calculators, but you answer all 10 questions.
- Test 3 requires answers to all 10 questions without the use of a calculator.
Now which tests are easy? Or hard?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Forum Guy #1 "MMOs are so easy! The quest of ultimate truth was a faceroll!! Give me a challenge!"
Forum Guy #2 "Wow, I thought it was kind of hard. I died twice trying to complete that quest chain. Forum Guy #1 must be a REALLY GOOD PLAYER!"
Forum Guy #1 "Thank you for acknowledging my leetness!"
Basically, Forum Guy #1 just wants his epeen stroked.
.. without even trying the hard content. I suppose those who complaint but always find excuses not to do hard content is just trying to stroke their ego without doing the work.
Now if the paragon guys come here and complains about WOW raid is easy, then i will listen.
lol, this^
Is it fairer to judge the difficulty of a game by a handful of difficult encounters or by some overall assessment of the content? I tend towards the latter because it is so easy for developers to tack some impossible content on to a game which is basically very easy.
The release version of Wrath of the Lich King was guilty of this to some extent: In the entire expansion (at release) there were a couple of heroic encounters that were challenging for well-organised raiding guilds but the rest of the content was significantly, often laughably easier. My friends in a serious raiding guild hated it, my friends in more casual guilds loved it.
In fairness to WoW this is just a particular example and I think WoW has usually had a fair amount of difficult and sometimes very difficult content. Generally it does a good job of appealing to a wide range of players.
However, I don't think there is any myth to be dispelled here. Given how the gaming demographic has changed over the years it would frankly be amazing and inexplicable if the average level of difficulty remained mysteriously unchanged throughout. And I don't see many assertions that games have actually become harder.
Then don't...
If a Player doesn't like like coordinated events, ridiculious coordination, etc.. then they don't have to partake in them.
But also understand that those rewards are for those who CAN do those things. When u have moAr to go wrong, then it inevitably will.. = risk. The social aspect of guilds (& thus raiding) is a part of a social game. Though... if your a loner or a solo'er u don't even have to be concerned with such things and go along and live (play) about your merry way.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
Yes, if the statement is "challenging content is AVAILABLE" in the game. Is it fair to say it is an easy game when there *is* difficulty content and people avoid it?
Yes exactly. Experiences should be 'categorized' as a whole; not based on a few select elements. For example, should I say the weather in Phoenix is perfect and use the few nice days in spring to back my assertion? Especially since most of the year the weather sucks.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Are you talking about EQ^ ..?
Wizard cast a spell too early, or wrong one, or have a fizzle... a damn fizzle.. and 4 hours (x 43 people) of thrilling anticipation gone! With only perseverrance to hold your head high and learn from your mistakes & mishaps.
Very few boss mobs in WoW required nothing other than zerg tactics... until that was so easy they left creativity behind and decided on an easier rout themselves and created "hard mode" instances. Very few raid mobs required EQ'esque timing of spells & agression control. Crafting or finding a Lure spell wasn't enough, your spell wasn't garaunteed to land ..& THAT ..is what made EQ's combat exciting and dynamic. U never knew..
Compairing anything to WoW, is eactly like compairing it to McDonalds.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
show me your wowarmory of your character with on-level raid progression boss kills. LFR is not real raids. stop posting if all you're gonna type is shit that comes out of a bull's ass.
WoW on a whole makes shit easy and just hands things to its players. WoW raids are not easy. LFR is easy. The actual normal raids are much harder though still somewhat easy and not especially difficult. The heroic modes are by far not easy. Not to the point that you can call it blankly 'easy'.
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
Dude.. you are talking about (after 7 + years) WoW's raids eventually got uber...
Nobody cares at that point, because it turned into what EQ had... a instanced raid dungeon of flipping flags. Elits bosses aside.. far less WoW mobs requires skill. EQ mobs got eaier and eaiser after 2004... you have no bearing on the ubject/topic. I don't think your reference point is old enough.
WoW easy ~ hard modes.. compared to each other has no bearing on a single player (Leeeroy jenkins) messes up. In every day, every hour EQ pick-up-groups.. if you wizard wasn't meding while your tank was tanking... he is a retard, because that meant if his late-fight mana dump (to burn the creature down from 30% to 0.. in mere seconds..) with just one fizzle may leave him without enough Mana to cast his last spell... which 30s more of meding would've allowed.
Simple, mindful things were & are no longer present... but they happened and boldned the early EQ base... we know those hardships of ultra-challenges. Because we lost moAr than just time if we failed... in WoW it was all arcade! You didn't have to go back and get your corpse, or take off from work and get another guild inolved..!
WoW was easy, because you actually risk nothing... doesn't matter how "hard" Blizzard says a dungeon is... the game is Fisher Price!
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
There is no such thing as a "whole" experience, because people choose different ones.
Is WOW super hard when a raid guild spend 100% of their time in hard mode raid... while some newbie spends 100% of his time on easy quests?
Yes and yes.
And you know what?
MMOs have really always been this way.
Camping Skeletons in UO with some friends for my Power Hour gains was supor easy. As was fighting those Blade elemental summons for Parry/Magic Resist gains.
Solo kiting dragons with Archery and bandage-swap tagging Liche Lords was super hard.
Running CH groups on Dantooine was super easy in SWG. Trying to solo/2-man Force Witches or whatever on the Rancor planet (can't remember the name right now) was super hard. Dathomir? Something like that.
Leveling and doing regular dungeons was always easy in WoW.
Even 10 man UBRS groups or Emperor runs in BRD weren't that hard.
But doing AQ40 raids - that was a bit tough.
So in this case, i will say it settles the question. If someone is complaining about how "easy" a MMO is, advice him to form a hardcore raiding guild, and tackle the most difficult content.
It has the added challenge of managing a bunch of people. Or may be just try to join Paragon.
Why is this a problem when people like it? Immersion is not everything. It should not be in the way of fun. And if people find epleen, gearscore, wow-progress fun .. more power to these tools.
I am pretty sure Sunwell was one of the lowest cleared raid instances in WoW's history due to how hard it was when it was current, and that sure as hell wasn't 7+ years in lol
you said it