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Originally posted by Xobdnas No, corporate meddling is killing them.
Well, killed them. We haven't had a great one (excluding Vanguard) in 8 years.
Planetside 2 is pretty great though.
Although evolution is indeed taking place,
sometimes it's not what you want/need/like
from horses we now have cars, but i still like ridding to enjoy myself
MMO's are dying? What about the great new MMO's like Sim City and Diablo III?
(wait.. read my face.. -_-)
Wait, and that is a problem? If I just wanted "community" I could sit in a chat room.
People use community to define themselves, that is essential to the structure of the ego, and the strength of a community, in turn, depends on its members having defined identities. Chatrooms with pure anonymity do not generate community, they just devolve into meanspiritedness. Likewise for online games.
Conversely, immersion into a game depends on identity with your avatar which depends on there being a strong community. This is why no genre of games was able to recreate the complete immersion feeling of a MMO, despite the fact that many rpg single player games involve far more story and better graphics. Identity with one's character is largely dependent on the reciprocal feedback that character gains through the online community of other player characters. If no one is identified with their characters, the community relies on real life identities through which to relate to one another, but no one wants to relate to other peoples "real life" personalities in a MMO, resulting in a wasteland of solo players who only chat in order to be rude to one another, with helpful players offering advice mixed in now and then. Interaction is guarded and cynical. The meeting of two characters online is not the meeting of two heroes, but of two a-holes half pretending to be heroes.
This type of gaming environment, one foot in game, the other in "reality", has always existed and always will exist. MMOs were a different environment, and MMO gamers were a different type of gamer. The MMO gamer was the type of gamer who had both feet in the world of fantasy, nothing remained for the real world. That is why the sterotypical MMO gamer had no real life, lived in their mother's basement or survived eating sardines and wheat thins. The Guild perfectly represents -- accurately I must say -- the true MMO gamer. The fact that the casual gamer took away our genre and forced us to play like them has been painful. Even though we want to have no lives, we actually would prefer to live with the barest excuse of a life just so we could fully game . . . even though we are willing to make that sacrefice, we can't, because there aren't any games like that anymore. No, "mobile is the future!" we are being told. Bleh.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Originally posted by kostantis Although evolution is indeed taking place, sometimes it's not what you want/need/like from horses we now have cars, but i still like ridding to enjoy myself
Evolution implies things get better, more robust.
Things are getting simpler, or getting taken out all together. In many cases, the design is getting much MUCH worse.
Originally posted by DavisFlight Originally posted by kostantis Although evolution is indeed taking place, sometimes it's not what you want/need/like from horses we now have cars, but i still like ridding to enjoy myself
In the long run evolution does imply things are getting "better", that doesn't mean there aren't bumps in the road or that the path is simple and straight. It certainly doesn't mean that we should just accept what we have now because it is "more evolved", part of the evolution includes our dissatisfaction with the current state of things.
Originally posted by DavisFlight Originally posted by daltanious Originally posted by Squeak69 Originally posted by daltanious Originally posted by CalmOceans Well that's my conclusion after thinking about it.
Never been so many MMO games out there and never been so many good MMO games out there in history and never so many players played MMO games.
just cause people left and right are hoping on the cash shop band wagon for fast bucks dousnt mean anything. most of those MMOs out there aint worth jack.
heck to be honest just cause the grapics are getting prettiyer dont mean they are better, to be honest there isnt even any new MMOs that truly reach out and grab me of late, most i barely have a passing intrtest in.
Wow, Swtor, Gw2, ... later TESO, Wildstar, TSW, ... will keep me busy for long long time. Once there was only Wow.
There was never only WoW. WoW was, and still is, one of the worst of the bunch. and TSW and SWTOR aren't even really MMOs. TESO is shaping up to be garbage just like all the other AAA MMORPGs.
There have never been so many MMOs...making so little money.
We used to have 5 VASTLY different AAA MMORPGs all enjoying great success and steady growth. Now we have one aged titan who has never implemented anything unique in its entire lifespan, and a bunch of dead and dying clones.
Yes, yes, ... I'm sure its like you say. :-)
But what matter are NUMBERS. Maybe some company could try still nowadays sell Pacman as best game ever but I hardly believe they could live from that.
Well, I forgot to mention Aoc, War, Eq and Eq2, .... many at least fun despite zilion of bugs.
I would say the aspect of community is on the decline in MMO's as of now.
I would attribute it to the removal of many of the things that players found annoying in MMO's over the decade.
Slow xp gain to next level
All of these made useful/efficient soloing much more difficult and encouraged a sense of and respect for the server community.
They also forced you to explore more
Ask the help of other players more
On the downside all those facets were terribly conducive to making an unlucky play session range from non-productive to a downright disaster
( Any older players experience that corpse run in an area they shouldn't have ventured just to get back the LAST items you wanted to drop on death only to leave a wagonload of your own corpses behind, gain a massive death penalty, and find your first corpse decomposed or looted? )
Much like real life, when you no longer have to cooperate and compromise to achieve a shared goal, you don't... So, when that shared goal does present itself, you have no network to turn to accomplish it and no idea what's acceptable in working with others to achieve it.
I really don't think there is a ready-made answer to the dilemma, sadly. Mine would truly be to allow both types of games to exist in the space. The problem is that it would appear that most companies are more interested with being #1 in the MMO race than turning a long term profit.
Originally posted by CalmOceans Well that's my conclusion after thinking about it. While MMO do well and sell well, they are not really MMO anymore, they're all small scale dungeon instancers (LoL, Vindictus), solo quest grinders (WoW SWOTOR), , or glorified action Hack & Slash multiplayer games (Tera, GW2). I haven't seen a game with a true community where the primary focus was the world and human interaction and the gameplay came second in MMO in a number of years. Now the gameplay is frist and if it isn't too much trouble maybe you'll be interacting with someone too, and if no ones interacts, join an artificial bubble called a guild and interact in the bubble. Most people don't need MMO to interact online, there are plenty of chat opportunities, facebook, twitter, disqus, liveFire, forums, email, messengers, smartphones, youtube. You have all these ways to interact with people you want, there is way too much noise to make a world where people will be truly immersed and willing to spend time with each other in a game outside of gameplay. There's no need for it anymore, there are thousands of other and arguably better ways to interact online. I think the term MMO lives on even though the games are now becomes multiplayer action games, but the idea behind MMO is long gone I think, it's replaced by other communities online that are far easier and more effective way to interact.
Agreed, classic EQ1 was the last MMO I played. if other players don't matter neither does the game.
Originally posted by Vyeth MMO's are dying? What about the great new MMO's like Sim City and Diablo III? (wait.. read my face.. -_-)
Glad you brought that up. D3 sold 12M copies and still top 15 on xfire after so many months. Some may argue it is not a MMO .. close enough for me.
I bet its expansion will be successful .. and lead the way for the future "mmo-like" games.
Originally posted by Akais I would say the aspect of community is on the decline in MMO's as of now. I would attribute it to the removal of many of the things that players found annoying in MMO's over the decade. Death Penalties Corpse Recovery Slow xp gain to next level None of these is fun gameplay for me. Glad they are gone. All of these made useful/efficient soloing much more difficult and encouraged a sense of and respect for the server community. Dont care abotu a server community. Why restrict yourself to a server? Cross realm is better. Cross game is even better. COmmunity is just a bunch of people who have fun together. They also forced you to explore more "forced"? Glad it is gone. If it is forced, it is no fun. If i want to explore, i explore. Don't want anyone to force me too. Ask the help of other players more Don't want to depend on others. On the downside all those facets were terribly conducive to making an unlucky play session range from non-productive to a downright disaster Exactly. Waste of my time having no fun is not my idea of playing a game. ( Any older players experience that corpse run in an area they shouldn't have ventured just to get back the LAST items you wanted to drop on death only to leave a wagonload of your own corpses behind, gain a massive death penalty, and find your first corpse decomposed or looted? ) Much like real life, when you no longer have to cooperate and compromise to achieve a shared goal, you don't... So, when that shared goal does present itself, you have no network to turn to accomplish it and no idea what's acceptable in working with others to achieve it. Exactly. A game don't need to force people to co-op. Just hit "LFD" if you want to .. otherwise, solo. I really don't think there is a ready-made answer to the dilemma, sadly. Mine would truly be to allow both types of games to exist in the space. The problem is that it would appear that most companies are more interested with being #1 in the MMO race than turning a long term profit. Yes, there is. The answer is the marketplace. It is not a problem, unless you don't like the games.
Originally posted by ImixZinz .... I think the idea of "end game" also kind of helped kill community....
I totally agree. I am the player who likes the journey not the terminus. I have always hated how "end-gamers" tend to give you a formula designed to get you the skills and gear that will benefit them and not want you to play to actually experience and enjoy the game in it's entirety. That is my experience and it has ruined many MMO's for me.
Currently bored with MMO's.
Originally posted by jpnz This post is factually false. The number of players that play the 'good-old-MMOs' has largely stayed the same. The so called 'casuals / WoW kiddies' are new players into the market. Staying the same amount of players is hardly dying.
No, you are factually incorrect.
Developer's are targeting younger crowds of people with their newer games, thus drawing in the adolecent youth. Teenager's don't have money... so they rely on parents for their fix. That is why the trinkets were invented.. easier for a kid to convince their parents.
Big difference trying to beg your Mom for her CC# vs sitting down next 2 ur Dad, on one of his 3-box systems. Roleplayers have money for their hobby. MMORPG are not games, but game worlds...
What we are seeing is true... MMO's are dying... & thank god!
At the premium level, MMo's are being replaced by MMORPG's..
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
Originally posted by DavisFlight Originally posted by Xobdnas No, corporate meddling is killing them.
Vangaurd may have been great for you and a few people. The community spoke and it was not great.
Originally posted by BadSpock That's probably the only decent argument in this thread. Before social media/networking became big, MMOs were a place to have a seperate, virtual identity. People cared about reputation and community, and the games/systems reflected that. There was a big difference in online play versus offline. Now that everything is online, there is no difference between your self and your online self, so things like roleplay and immersion and community are not is important inside the game world. Since every game is online now to some extent, online RPGs are no longer a world to escape to but simply a time waster/place for fun like everything else on the internet. Like all things, technology and the "instant access" it gives have sped the world up - life is simply faster and more connected/intertwined electronically. The games, their systems, and the "average" player's experience reflects that. When I started playing MMOs, we didn't "surf the internet" we logged on for very specific purposes with our telephone line modems. There was no online integration of our ilves. We didn't have chat clients until "always on" DSL / cable came about. We didn't have social networking. Most of our gaming was done offline, and multiplayer generally meant crowding 4+ people around the N64. MMOs aren't dying. They are evolving. And as per usual, society (the players) is struggling to keep up with the pace technological change has brought. MMOs are in flux.
Great points, BadSpock. Tagging for future reference.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Jemcrystal I want to raid.
Conveniently, you are very well-served by the industry at present.
Originally posted by ElderRat
You sound like they dictate what you do & enjoy in a game.
There is no reason to put up with anything. You can easily hit a button and quit a group. I don't tolerate anything in a group. If i don't like anyone for any trivial reason. I am gone. It is also a two-way street. Anyone is free to quit on me.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by ElderRat
No offense Nari, but 10k posts and ticking, I think a lot of us wish we could have quit on you a long time ago . . .
Originally posted by Jjix Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by ElderRat
No kidding... his selfish gameplay is the antithesis of roleplaying games. His every posts is about himself.
There are mmos, and mmorpgs.
they basically now use "mmo" for anything that plays online... Now first i wouldnt even call mmo anything that uses mostly instance models for the action rather than actual massive amount of people alltogether fighting. And instanced games are more and more the way most studios make it..
Second, most of the studios outthere makes their game easy, and istant gratification is they key word for most of them. Younger players (and its not discrimination at all), tend towards instant gratification most of the time, But i.e. in WoW, where your quest consist mostly at following bread crumbs from your position to the goal's position, thats not really a quest. "it reminds of me mall maps where you have the "you are here" and you can see detailed information about everything in the mall. they make it too easy, and that gets quickly boring.
Leave the MMORPG creation in MMORPG and RPG people that plays it, like it, love it, live for it. RPG and MMORPG players are not common video gamers they seek something else, something that only MMO players can understand...sometimes disagree totally lol, but understand. No one would ask to an accountant to create a new recipe, they'd ask a chef. You guys want to make an MMORPG ? hire MMORPG lovers. MMORPG players, are much like LARP players, they complain all the time, they always have something to say, but give them a good game that has a feeling, that allows them to have a unique char, that respect their change of moods by offering lots of classes as in DAoC, balanced or not, they will play...tools to bond with other players that fit their styles, little changes at a time (smart and small), so they can adapt and they ll follow you till death.
Nowadays, Big studios aim for the revenues, so they target as large as possible, but when you do that, you have a "general" game with not much deepness in it. You cannot design a mmo the same way you design a single player game.
even regarding movies, for the past 10 years we been assisting to more and more movies with big visual effects, but has a shallow story, no deepness in it, where all that matters are the visual effects. i like my movies the same way i like my games. deep, storytelling, that makes you think and ponder and analyse, rather than a movie where you know after 10 minutes how the movie is gonna end.
But i still have hope, there are 2-3 mmorpgs out there that are in the making that seem very interesting, like CU, who seems to be going back and old school mmorpg,
Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoCThurka on WAR