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Dear ZOS, Please Don't Let Paul Sage Wreck This Game...

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  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by Livnthedream

    Ironic really because to me, you and the guy in the video are both random guys on the internet.

    Can I make a wild guess that you are studying some sort of sociology course at the moment and because fresh in your studies you think these video's you post mean something more then someone expressing an opinion?

    He holds a BA and a Phd, and is a professor at a prestigious school. He is far from "random".

     

    Naw, looking into psychology is nothing but a hobby. Understanding why and what people do can be rather important in the line of work I am going into.

    Psychology has been repeatedly proven to be at best a imprecise science, at worse a pseudo-science so excuse the people who have a little more than a "see this guy has a phd and knows shit!" argument. I've know people both younger and way older than you who've shown more than just a passing tendency to choose their own courses in life regardless of the currents society imposes on their generation and I've seen that the number of people who do this is a Hell of allot bigger than what it was when I was younger. Have fun posting youtube vids with jaded knowitalls though, pshychology has always been a running joke to anyone with an IQ north of 120.

    image
  • HjamnrHjamnr Madison, WIPosts: 163Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath    Ok, but there's nothing about "Elder Scrolls" in your post. You are "about DAoC". This is the crux of the matter.

    Now,I have no problem with 3 Faction pvp or ffa pvp or any type of pvp. But since the series was about exploration, making your character into what you want it to be, going where you want to go and doing what you want to do it's difficult to then be greeted with "Hey guys, they are finally making an elder scrolls game... AND THE WORLD IS GOING TO BE CUT UP AND PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE FORCED INTO FACTIONS YAY!!!!!!"

    Sorry but it's a bit anachronistic for a series that was about choice.

    And I don't see these arguments from the "three faction pvp crowd " (I can assume that it's a DAoC crowd but that might not be the case) arguing that this model will make for a better elder scrolls experience. It's all about it making the game a better DAoC 2.0

    So sure, this is how they have made it, I completely understand, as others have said, that if you are going to make a 3 faction pvp game one might want to follow a format the was known to work. But again, it's not really beyond the pale that there are elder scrolls fans scratching their heads asking "why are we talking about this again?"

    With any transition from one medium to another, there are always compromises which have to be made.  You see this in book->movie translations all the time.

    Elder Scrolls fans need to realize that this cannot be Skyrim, but that you play with other people.  It just wouldn't work, akin to trying to put the entirety of "iRobot" onto the big screen... it'd be like 6 hours long, and be hard to follow.  There have to be changes, to fit the MMORPG format.  If you're going to put PvP in this game, (which you pretty much have to, these days, to have any potential longevity) the best model, with the most proven longevity and retention, is the model which was used by Mythic in thier first MMORPG. 

    Thankfully, we have Matt, one of the founders of Mythic, running the show at ZMO, to properly guide this design.

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by Maelwydd

    Well to me he is random. What he says makes sence in a clinical abstract way. And I guess to people who can't make up their mind he might be right. Not to me though, sorry.

    Wait, so you already know the answer to every dicision you will ever make? Then why are you here again?

    And using a quote from your video, you might be happy with TESO having faction locks but I am not happy to simply say "You'll do". I know what I want, I don't have low expectations, I just have defined expectations. You can keep youre low expectations and play any dross that gets produced but I will not.

    Wait, so you prejudged a game that you have not even touched yet and have already decided that to play it would be to settle? Again, I ask why exactly are you here? I don't have low expectations. I am interested in what the developers have presented in terms of the rules of this particular game. The ip does not really play into it because ip for the most part is meaningless. This is a large part of the reason why I do not really understand your railing against this. Ip is not the same thing as genre, and no game will ever meet what you have built up in your head for what you believe something should be. That is the very definition of unrealistic expectations. If you honestly think you can do better then you should be putting your money where your mouth is. Get some money together, make a demo and take it to Zenimax and try an sell it. Critiquing something before you have even seen it in action, much less touched it is ignorant at best.

    Oh, and way to go to make such a simple thing as a design option in a video game into some dramatic life or death philosophical and social experiment into the human psyche!

    Again, the sensationalism in an attempt to discredit. Atleast its not as bad as the outright insults. For someone attempting to tell others that they have low expectations, and that they are settling (I am not even convinced whether or not I will be purchasing the title) you sure are close minded.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,460Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Hjamnr
     

    With any transition from one medium to another, there are always compromises which have to be made.  You see this in book->movie translations all the time.

    Elder Scrolls fans need to realize that this cannot be Skyrim, but that you play with other people.  It just wouldn't work, akin to trying to put the entirety of "iRobot" onto the big screen... it'd be like 6 hours long, and be hard to follow.  There have to be changes, to fit the MMORPG format.  If you're going to put PvP in this game, (which you pretty much have to, these days, to have any potential longevity) the best model, with the most proven longevity and retention, is the model which was used by Mythic in thier first MMORPG. 

    Thankfully, we have Matt, one of the founders of Mythic, running the show at ZMO, to properly guide this design.

    I completely agree, you are preaching to the choir.

    So DAoC fans are going to have to realize that this cannot be DAoC 2 as you play with other people, especially people who have been playing Elders Scrolls games for years. There are going to have to be changes to fit the Elder Scrolls world that these players have been enjoying for years.

    So that point cuts both ways.

    However, I don't agree that the DAoC is the "Best model". Lineage 2, though released about 2 years after DAoC had more players than DAoC over the years and is still going strong.

    I mean, if you want to talk pvp models you are going to find people who can point to alternate pvp models that have die hard fan bases as well.

  • VendacVendac Sauk City, WIPosts: 39Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Vendac

    Is it not time to make something different in an MMO?  The WoW formula has been done to death has it not?  People need something different to pull them away from what they are doing and then it needs to be good enough to get them to stay.

    If ESO is not significantly different than what is out there, people will not play it, or they may play it for a short time and leave.  Look at games like Rift, GW2, etc as examples.  Rift is WoW 2.0 with alot less content.  People got bored of Rift and went back to WoW.  GW2 is a solid game at heart, but the end game is certainly not PvP and the PvE is meh at best.

    Those that complain about PvP, yes this is a 3 realm game.  Yes, there are factions.  Do things like this build realm pride?  Damn right they do.  Should you be able to talk to the other realms, maybe.  Thats up to the devs.  Myself, I prefer the old school DAOC way where you killed someone, then went and taunted them on the VN Boards.  But that was a different time.  As far being able to play with the other factions in a huggy-feely love fest for PvE, I dont think they need to allow it.  All the classes are mirrored in this game, so other than to appease the the role playing crowd, there is no reason to allow the factions to mix with each other.

    One thing that is almost guaranteed as that you will see some of the mechanics of DAOC come into this game as Matt Firor was one of the founders of Mythic and built what can still be considered one of the best PvP games ever in DAOC.  Taking some of these mechanics and incorporating them into ESO can only be a good thing.

    Ok, but there's nothing about "Elder Scrolls" in your post. You are "about DAoC". This is the crux of the matter.

    Now,I have no problem with 3 Faction pvp or ffa pvp or any type of pvp. But since the series was about exploration, making your character into what you want it to be, going where you want to go and doing what you want to do it's difficult to then be greeted with "Hey guys, they are finally making an elder scrolls game... AND THE WORLD IS GOING TO BE CUT UP AND PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE FORCED INTO FACTIONS YAY!!!!!!"

    Sorry but it's a bit anachronistic for a series that was about choice.

    And I don't see these arguments from the "three faction pvp crowd " (I can assume that it's a DAoC crowd but that might not be the case) arguing that this model will make for a better elder scrolls experience. It's all about it making the game a better DAoC 2.0

    So sure, this is how they have made it, I completely understand, as others have said, that if you are going to make a 3 faction pvp game one might want to follow a format the was known to work. But again, it's not really beyond the pale that there are elder scrolls fans scratching their heads asking "why are we talking about this again?"

     

    Yes, I admit I played DAOC for almost 10 years which is longer than most have even been playing MMOs.  Ive also played the the Elder Scrolls games, back as far as Daggerfall.  I understand the concept of exploration and customization.

    We have no idea how cut up the world will be, or how big it will actually be.  If the world is big enough, it being cut into 3 pieces is not a big deal.  As none of us are actually in beta, and if anyone is they are under NDA, we have no idea how it really will work.  I hope you can actually visit a large portion of the world, around 80%, and its not sectioned off with a big sign that says you cant go there.  But these areas need to be PvP areas.  It should be risky, but there is your exploration for you.

    The trinity will still be there, but you can do alot of different things with your character for that customization.  It remains to be seen how balance will be done as anytime you mix PvP into a game, there are always certain builds that work better than others.  At least ESO will use a class mirror system so everyone has access to the same stuff in that regard.

    ESO needs to break out away from the current mold of MMOs (read: WOW) and try something with alot of new concepts.  They are headed in the right direction, but in the end it will be the little things that matter.

    You cant fix stupid - Ron White

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Hjamnr
     

    With any transition from one medium to another, there are always compromises which have to be made.  You see this in book->movie translations all the time.

    Elder Scrolls fans need to realize that this cannot be Skyrim, but that you play with other people.  It just wouldn't work, akin to trying to put the entirety of "iRobot" onto the big screen... it'd be like 6 hours long, and be hard to follow.  There have to be changes, to fit the MMORPG format.  If you're going to put PvP in this game, (which you pretty much have to, these days, to have any potential longevity) the best model, with the most proven longevity and retention, is the model which was used by Mythic in thier first MMORPG. 

    Thankfully, we have Matt, one of the founders of Mythic, running the show at ZMO, to properly guide this design.

    I completely agree, you are preaching to the choir.

    So DAoC fans are going to have to realize that this cannot be DAoC 2 as you play with other people, especially people who have been playing Elders Scrolls games for years. There are going to have to be changes to fit the Elder Scrolls world that these players have been enjoying for years.

    However, I don't agree that the DAoC is the "Best model". Lineage 2, though released about 2 years after DAoC had more players than DAoC over the years and is still going strong.

    I mean, if you want to talk pvp models you are going to find people who can point to alternate pvp models that have die hard fan bases as well.

    EVE-Online... and just have some random islands and seas and shit outside the main continent for people to fight over, basically free for all naval warfare with land invasions, colonization, etc. No faction locking or crap like that, people can form communities on their own and would have to to survive the, innevitable, bands of marauding players who take to the "rape and pillage" ethos.

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  • TelondarielTelondariel Ottawa, ONPosts: 1,001Member
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by Livnthedream

    Ironic really because to me, you and the guy in the video are both random guys on the internet.

    Can I make a wild guess that you are studying some sort of sociology course at the moment and because fresh in your studies you think these video's you post mean something more then someone expressing an opinion?

    He holds a BA and a Phd, and is a professor at a prestigious school. He is far from "random".

     

    Naw, looking into psychology is nothing but a hobby. Understanding why and what people do can be rather important in the line of work I am going into.

    Psychology has been repeatedly proven to be at best a imprecise science, at worse a pseudo-science so excuse the people who have a little more than a "see this guy has a phd and knows shit!" argument. I've know people both younger and way older than you who've shown more than just a passing tendency to choose their own courses in life regardless of the currents society imposes on their generation and I've seen that the number of people who do this is a Hell of allot bigger than what it was when I was younger. Have fun posting youtube vids with jaded knowitalls though, pshychology has always been a running joke to anyone with an IQ north of 120.

    Well, my bag of troll feed was almost empty so I figured I'd give you the powdery, mealy scraps at the bottom.

     

    You have no idea what on earth you are talking about.  Please don't mix personal bias with inaccurate over-generalizations.

    image
  • dotdotdashdotdotdash Llandrindod WellsPosts: 364Member


    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Are a solid start. There are more than a few others that go into it further, but really it comes down to basic psychology, the human brain is wired and trained in certain ways by media and evolution.

    Actually, if you'd bother to go and read actual research papers on the matter, you'd find that your application of such "basic psychology" is floored and doesn't apply.

    Faction locking is only a PvP motivator where other PvP motivators fail. You can create and contrive robust competition between factions whilst still allowing them to communicate and interact actively by giving them something meaningful to fight over. That is how it works in Eve. The reason faction locking has become so prevalent in themepark games is because there is very little meaningful content that can be fought over.

    Cyrodil is a proposed solution to this problem; we'll see if it works, but it's designed to create a meaningful and important goal for the PvP section of the game. If it isn't that rewarding, faction locking will be required to bolster the competition. If it is, faction locking won't be required.

    Anyway, I suggest you actually do some reading before you spout nonsense at me again.

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by Dihoru

    Psychology has been repeatedly proven to be at best a imprecise science, at worse a pseudo-science so excuse the people who have a little more than a "see this guy has a phd and knows shit!" argument. I've know people both younger and way older than you who've shown more than just a passing tendency to choose their own courses in life regardless of the currents society imposes on their generation and I've seen that the number of people who do this is a Hell of allot bigger than what it was when I was younger. Have fun posting youtube vids with jaded knowitalls though, pshychology has always been a running joke to anyone with an IQ north of 120.

    Of course its imprecise. Its evolving just like every other science. It gets tweaked every time data reveals something new. Its pretty undeniable that conditioning in its various forms works, I mean look at how many industries are fueled by the skinner box? The numbers themselves do not lie, though the interpretation of the data can be wrong. Generally speaking though, when you see the same experiments run with many different people in many different places and all of the data matches up, its kinda hard to call it into question. Again though, if you have an issue with his data, argue that. I would love to see the data that your opinion is based on that contradicts it. After all, there is a reason why more games are now made based on metrics instead of by gut feeling.

  • VendacVendac Sauk City, WIPosts: 39Member
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Hjamnr
     

    With any transition from one medium to another, there are always compromises which have to be made.  You see this in book->movie translations all the time.

    Elder Scrolls fans need to realize that this cannot be Skyrim, but that you play with other people.  It just wouldn't work, akin to trying to put the entirety of "iRobot" onto the big screen... it'd be like 6 hours long, and be hard to follow.  There have to be changes, to fit the MMORPG format.  If you're going to put PvP in this game, (which you pretty much have to, these days, to have any potential longevity) the best model, with the most proven longevity and retention, is the model which was used by Mythic in thier first MMORPG. 

    Thankfully, we have Matt, one of the founders of Mythic, running the show at ZMO, to properly guide this design.

    I completely agree, you are preaching to the choir.

    So DAoC fans are going to have to realize that this cannot be DAoC 2 as you play with other people, especially people who have been playing Elders Scrolls games for years. There are going to have to be changes to fit the Elder Scrolls world that these players have been enjoying for years.

    However, I don't agree that the DAoC is the "Best model". Lineage 2, though released about 2 years after DAoC had more players than DAoC over the years and is still going strong.

    I mean, if you want to talk pvp models you are going to find people who can point to alternate pvp models that have die hard fan bases as well.

    EVE-Online... and just have some random islands and seas and shit outside the main continent for people to fight over, basically free for all naval warfare with land invasions, colonization, etc. No faction locking or crap like that, people can form communities on their own and would have to to survive the, innevitable, bands of marauding players who take to the "rape and pillage" ethos.

    Why cant it be part of the main continent?  No one is forcing anyone to do PvP.  Dont want to PvP, stay out of the PvP areas.  If you add PvP zones that are not part of the story backdrop what purpose do they serve?  From what Ive seen is that there are 3 factions fighting against each other for 1 area.  Putting that elsewhere kind of defeats the purpose....

    You cant fix stupid - Ron White

  • HjamnrHjamnr Madison, WIPosts: 163Member
    Originally posted by Dihoru

    EVE-Online... and just have some random islands and seas and shit outside the main continent for people to fight over, basically free for all naval warfare with land invasions, colonization, etc. No faction locking or crap like that, people can form communities on their own and would have to to survive the, innevitable, bands of marauding players who take to the "rape and pillage" ethos.

    Having "faction locked" PvE areas allows your game to cater to both the "pure" PvE Elder scrolls crowd, not forcing them into PvP if they don't want it, and also provides a gateway into meaningful RvR warfare, which they can dabble in at their leisure.

    It's a balance that no games have really achieved since Dark Age.

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by dotdotdas

    Actually, if you'd bother to go and read actual research papers on the matter, you'd find that your application of such "basic psychology" is floored and doesn't apply.

    I have. I do not see where it does not apply. Care to enlighten me?

    Faction locking is only a PvP motivator where other PvP motivators fail. You can create and contrive robust competition between factions whilst still allowing them to communicate and interact actively by giving them something meaningful to fight over. That is how it works in Eve. The reason faction locking has become so prevalent in themepark games is because there is very little meaningful content that can be fought over.

    Cyrodil is a proposed solution to this problem; we'll see if it works, but it's designed to create a meaningful and important goal for the PvP section of the game. If it isn't that rewarding, faction locking will be required to bolster the competition. If it is, faction locking won't be required.

    Anyway, I suggest you actually do some reading before you spout nonsense at me again.

    Really? Cause the last Eve Fest showed pretty clearly that the only real motivational factor driving things was the economy, Ie resources. Its a large part of the reason why there has been more and more movement out of 0.0 space and into wormhole space.

  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by Maelwydd

    Well to me he is random. What he says makes sence in a clinical abstract way. And I guess to people who can't make up their mind he might be right. Not to me though, sorry.

    Wait, so you already know the answer to every dicision you will ever make? Then why are you here again?

    I do not know the answer to every descision I will ever make, not at all. But I have the capacity, when faced with a choice, to make an educated guess based on my own personal preferences and ability to make that choice. Isn't that the basic, findamental ability everyone has? Oh right, some PHD guys says we would all be better off will no choice because we really don't know what we want so must be spoon fed. Sorry, for the uneducated masses it probably sounds like really deep shit. To me it sounds like a lot of watery fluff just to seel his book...to people who can't make their own mind up so must be told, in a book, written by a really brainy PHD guy that they can't help being anable to be happy because they are just programmed that way. All due respect to the guy but that is bullshit.

    And using a quote from your video, you might be happy with TESO having faction locks but I am not happy to simply say "You'll do". I know what I want, I don't have low expectations, I just have defined expectations. You can keep youre low expectations and play any dross that gets produced but I will not.

    Wait, so you prejudged a game that you have not even touched yet and have already decided that to play it would be to settle? Again, I ask why exactly are you here? I don't have low expectations. I am interested in what the developers have presented in terms of the rules of this particular game. The ip does not really play into it because ip for the most part is meaningless. This is a large part of the reason why I do not really understand your railing against this. Ip is not the same thing as genre, and no game will ever meet what you have built up in your head for what you believe something should be. That is the very definition of unrealistic expectations. If you honestly think you can do better then you should be putting your money where your mouth is. Get some money together, make a demo and take it to Zenimax and try an sell it. Critiquing something before you have even seen it in action, much less touched it is ignorant at best.

    Of course I can prejudge before I play it. Isn't that what marketing is all about? Give out info, get people to get excited about the pruduct before launch and hopefully raise sales...sometimes the maketing doesn't work or the product just isn't for everyone.

    But here is the kicker, I am totally able to change my opinion when more information becomes available. I am totally able to fully understand what I expect and want even before anything is written about a product. If someone said to me "I am going to make an MMORPG based on a TES game" I know EXACTLY what my expectations are even before they releave any information. How can I do that? Because I am capable of critical thinking, ahving my own opinion and being able to assess what my requirements are based on my previous experiences.

    And ignorant is when you say something like "DAOC PvP is the best and because one of the designers of DAOC is making TES then the PVP is TES will be great". It isn't stating that "these are my expectations and the game currently doesn't meet them but perhaps it might be acceptable when the game is finished". You see I am still willing to compromise, in fact have already done so to even look at the game, but you insist that the DAOC model is the only one to use. YOU are stuck without any choice here, not me.

    Oh, and way to go to make such a simple thing as a design option in a video game into some dramatic life or death philosophical and social experiment into the human psyche!

    Again, the sensationalism in an attempt to discredit. Atleast its not as bad as the outright insults. For someone attempting to tell others that they have low expectations, and that they are settling (I am not even convinced whether or not I will be purchasing the title) you sure are close minded.

    Sorry, you started posting the Youtube links to try and make it seem like you had a clue. Guess what, you don't!

  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
     

    Really? Cause the last Eve Fest showed pretty clearly that the only real motivational factor driving things was the economy, Ie resources. Its a large part of the reason why there has been more and more movement out of 0.0 space and into wormhole space.

    I guess "it happens because people like to PvP for the fun of it" is something that some PHD boffins would laugh at because as we all know, fun, just like love, is just too darn hard to work out what it is and how it works....right?

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by Dihoru

    Psychology has been repeatedly proven to be at best a imprecise science, at worse a pseudo-science so excuse the people who have a little more than a "see this guy has a phd and knows shit!" argument. I've know people both younger and way older than you who've shown more than just a passing tendency to choose their own courses in life regardless of the currents society imposes on their generation and I've seen that the number of people who do this is a Hell of allot bigger than what it was when I was younger. Have fun posting youtube vids with jaded knowitalls though, pshychology has always been a running joke to anyone with an IQ north of 120.

    Of course its imprecise. Its evolving just like every other science. It gets tweaked every time data reveals something new. Its pretty undeniable that conditioning in its various forms works, I mean look at how many industries are fueled by the skinner box? The numbers themselves do not lie, though the interpretation of the data can be wrong. Generally speaking though, when you see the same experiments run with many different people in many different places and all of the data matches up, its kinda hard to call it into question. Again though, if you have an issue with his data, argue that. I would love to see the data that your opinion is based on that contradicts it. After all, there is a reason why more games are now made based on metrics instead of by gut feeling.

    o.O you and the guy who "fed the troll" have allot to learn about the human condition it would seem.

    image
  • rygard49rygard49 Huntington Beach, CAPosts: 975Member
    Originally posted by Dreskest

    When the final product is live, I'll play it and if I don't find it that entertaining, I'll just move on.

    I suggest you do the same. It's just another videogame.

    The wisest response is always the most ignored.

  • ElRenmazuoElRenmazuo Alexandria, VAPosts: 4,555Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Originally posted by Qallidexz

    There was a TON of confusion recently, based on the recent article where Richie Procopio of Massively said: 

    "Sage assuaged most of my fears, however, when he mentioned that once you hit level 50 and decide to play in another alliance's areas, you'll be able to play with friends in that faction. So at the endgame, things begin to open up and you can group up, chat, and run dungeons with players of other factions. The one area where things remain separate is, of course, the Alliance War in Cyrodiil."

    However, at that same Media Event Maria Alipraondo gave a VERY different story, saying that people will NOT be allowed to talk with, or even see, people from other factions, but that the 50++ other-factions zones, would instead be instanced for Alliance, and Matt Firor seemed to indicate the exact same thing in his interview...

    HOWEVER, today, the same guy, Richie Procopio, said in a video uploaded to youtube, that he caught up with Sage at PAX for some clarification on this, APPARENTLY, according to Sage, he's now  thinking of NOT ONLY allowing players at 50 to group with, and chat with, people of other realms, but ALSO, allow people to do this FROM LEVEL 1! I don't think I have to tell anyone here how that will utterly destory the faction-based PvP (do I?). Sounds like this is something Sage wants personally... 

     

    HE WANTS all 3 factions to be meaningless in a purely PvE focused, hold-hands with the enemies and skip through the meadows picking flowers together type game... HE WANTS to destroy EVERYTHING Brian Wheeler and his team worked so hard on for years, in one fell swoop... PLEASE DO NOT MAKE PVP A COMPLETE JOKE, AND BACKSTAB ALL THE RvR FAN SUPPORT YOU'VE GOTTEN OVER THE PAST YEAR... PLEASE DO NOT ALLOW Paul "The Carebear" Sage TO RUIN THIS GAME. If people can group with, talk with, play with, people from other factions, then at the end of the day, Faction pride won't exist, and PvP will be 100% meaningless, like it is in GW2. Please don't turn on your entire PvP fanbase with one quick decision. You might as well HAND Camelot Unchained  your entire PvP-loving playerbase if you do this...

     

    IMO ESO already tipped their hand to caving to whiners with the introduction of 1st Person View...which is horrendous for an MMO and no one in their right mind will use it, it will devolve to one of those systems that players only use to take screenshots once the novelty of the idea wears off and the realization it makes MMO play horrible.

     

    They also caved to the faction lock, whereas 6 months ago I could see this as a spiritual successor to DAoC now it will be just a horrible RvR game like GW2 is.

     

    Because of the ability for a vocal minority to change development in such a way there is a growing chorus to cater to the raid or die mentality crowd which as we all know if that happens everything else will take a backburner and raiding will be the only reliable gameplay to see any developmental updates.

     

    As it stands now I will play the game but not with any great aspirations of it being the next DAoC due to some of these changes and I will msot likely treat Cryodill as a PvE zone with PvP gankings.  My hype for the game has taken a serious nosedive in the past 2 weeks.

    Guild Wars 2 may be a horrible RvR game but its a great pve game and thats why its still running and successful

  • CthulhuPuffsCthulhuPuffs Henderson, NVPosts: 363Member Common
    Originally posted by Qallidexz
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Po_gg
    Originally posted by Arglebargle

    As always:

     

    It's called Elder Scrolls Online, not Dark Age of Camelot 2.   They were trying to get the huge TES fanbase into the game, and as such they have to actually pay attention to the interests of the Elder Scrolls fans.  If they'd done their game with a new world and campaign, no one would be here complaining.   Of course, they might not sell nearly as many copies, hence the leveraging of the Elder Scrolls world.

    There are many interested in the game who don't care about manufactured 'faction pride', or the other shoehorned-in PVP aspects.   We'll see how much of a strategic error that turns out to be.  Failure of vision, imo.  The game should have really used something like the Vanguard model for its design.   While it wouldn't appeal to the DAoC crew, it would definitely fit the fans of Morrowind, Skyrim, et al.  

    Very much this.

    I mostly gave up on the game when daocdude took charge of it and start to make a DAoC2 upon the attention wave of the ES IP. And while I'm still not convinced, now after the recent news it's a high chance that I will buy ESO and at least try it out.

     

    I'm with Phry on the numbers :) OP complaining that daoc lovers would ditch the game. Riight. All the 200k? :)

    I don't want to waste time to dig up numbers, but Oblivion alone was sold ~4million (without the pirated versions, I think I red somewhere back then that the real player number was somewhere around 5.5-6million). Do the math... and yep, there will be some Camelot game as I heard, I'm pretty sure they will love to accept those 200k :)

     In a sick way, I almost hope you get the POS MMO you're designing in your mind. That would be truly just.

     

    I know rite? Part of me has been wanting these Elder Scrolls players to get EXACTLY what they're asking for in every way... Then, of course, the $300 million investment would be lost, and the future ES games would suffer in quality, or ZeniMax Media would go bankrupt entirely, and no more Elder Scrolls games... Ah... that would be rich. NO better yet, they LOSE the investment, and are forced to sell the Elder Scrolls IP to...Blizzard Entertainment! Ahh, that would be rich. heh 

    You mean an actual Elder Scrolls game instead of some rehashed DAOC2?

     

    The more DAOC crap they remove the better.

    Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.

    Games Played: Too Many

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by Maelwydd

    I do not know the answer to every descision I will ever make, not at all. But I have the capacity, when faced with a choice, to make an educated guess based on my own personal preferences and ability to make that choice. Isn't that the basic, findamental ability everyone has? Oh right, some PHD guys says we would all be better off will no choice because we really don't know what we want so must be spoon fed. Sorry, for the uneducated masses it probably sounds like really deep shit. To me it sounds like a lot of watery fluff just to seel his book...to people who can't make their own mind up so must be told, in a book, written by a really brainy PHD guy that they can't help being anable to be happy because they are just programmed that way. All due respect to the guy but that is bullshit.

    first, he did not say "no choice" he said pretty clearly "too much choice". You do realize that there is a difference right? Second, you are honestly saying that you have never regretted a single decision that you have made? That you have never asked the salesperson/doctor what you should do? Its ok, I know that asking for directions is hard but we all need help sometimes!

    Of course I can prejudge before I play it. Isn't that what marketing is all about? Give out info, get people to get excited about the pruduct before launch and hopefully raise sales...sometimes the maketing doesn't work or the product just isn't for everyone.

    I would disagree that pre judgement is what marketing is about so much as building hype and getting attention.

    But here is the kicker, I am totally able to change my opinion when more information becomes available. I am totally able to fully understand what I expect and want even before anything is written about a product. If someone said to me "I am going to make an MMORPG based on a TES game" I know EXACTLY what my expectations are even before they releave any information. How can I do that? Because I am capable of critical thinking, ahving my own opinion and being able to assess what my requirements are based on my previous experiences.

    That is not critical thinking. By your paradigm we never would have gotten FFtactics, or Redguard, or Star Wars Kinect. Considering the sheer amount of people pushing and wanting innovation you are actively trying to squash it, which is rather hilarious personally.

    And ignorant is when you say something like "DAOC PvP is the best and because one of the designers of DAOC is making TES then the PVP is TES will be great". It isn't stating that "these are my expectations and the game currently doesn't meet them but perhaps it might be acceptable when the game is finished". You see I am still willing to compromise, in fact have already done so to even look at the game, but you insist that the DAOC model is the only one to use. YOU are stuck without any choice here, not me.

    I would love for you to show me a single post where I have said DAOC is the best. Honestly based on the data I would have to say the current winner of that title would be WoW, for a couple of reasons. However that does not change the fact that you as a consumer have no rights at all to dictate to the designer what the game should entail. No amount of your "but lore" whinning has any place in what they choose to do with the ip/brand. You have no right to complain about expectations they never set. 

    Sorry, you started posting the Youtube links to try and make it seem like you had a clue. Guess what, you don't!

    Again, would love to see the data that says otherwise. Data does not lie, people do.

    Originally posted by Maelwydd

    I guess "it happens because people like to PvP for the fun of it" is something that some PHD boffins would laugh at because as we all know, fun, just like love, is just too darn hard to work out what it is and how it works....right?

    Nope, love is actually pretty simple. The chemical bonds that form emotions were figured out years ago. Also, pvp is also pretty interesting in the number of different emotions it hits and how it effects the brain. This on competitive thinking and how it effects the brain is pretty interesting. Did you know chimps are better at it than humans?

  • ElRenmazuoElRenmazuo Alexandria, VAPosts: 4,555Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Qallidexz
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Po_gg
    Originally posted by Arglebargle

    As always:

     

    It's called Elder Scrolls Online, not Dark Age of Camelot 2.   They were trying to get the huge TES fanbase into the game, and as such they have to actually pay attention to the interests of the Elder Scrolls fans.  If they'd done their game with a new world and campaign, no one would be here complaining.   Of course, they might not sell nearly as many copies, hence the leveraging of the Elder Scrolls world.

    There are many interested in the game who don't care about manufactured 'faction pride', or the other shoehorned-in PVP aspects.   We'll see how much of a strategic error that turns out to be.  Failure of vision, imo.  The game should have really used something like the Vanguard model for its design.   While it wouldn't appeal to the DAoC crew, it would definitely fit the fans of Morrowind, Skyrim, et al.  

    Very much this.

    I mostly gave up on the game when daocdude took charge of it and start to make a DAoC2 upon the attention wave of the ES IP. And while I'm still not convinced, now after the recent news it's a high chance that I will buy ESO and at least try it out.

     

    I'm with Phry on the numbers :) OP complaining that daoc lovers would ditch the game. Riight. All the 200k? :)

    I don't want to waste time to dig up numbers, but Oblivion alone was sold ~4million (without the pirated versions, I think I red somewhere back then that the real player number was somewhere around 5.5-6million). Do the math... and yep, there will be some Camelot game as I heard, I'm pretty sure they will love to accept those 200k :)

     In a sick way, I almost hope you get the POS MMO you're designing in your mind. That would be truly just.

     

    I know rite? Part of me has been wanting these Elder Scrolls players to get EXACTLY what they're asking for in every way... Then, of course, the $300 million investment would be lost, and the future ES games would suffer in quality, or ZeniMax Media would go bankrupt entirely, and no more Elder Scrolls games... Ah... that would be rich. NO better yet, they LOSE the investment, and are forced to sell the Elder Scrolls IP to...Blizzard Entertainment! Ahh, that would be rich. heh 

    Ya ummm Bethesda is never going to give their IP to blizzard and even if the mmo fails it will not effect the single player game series and it most likely to fail if it goes the the way the daoc fans want it to be than the fans of the actual ES IP do the math. its like you have a sign on your head that says "i dont know wtf im talking about."  cuz daoc is very successful right with there 200k players base prolly lower in reality. HAHAHAHA LOL

  • RelGnRelGn halalaPosts: 494Member

     . PLEASE DO NOT ALLOW Paul "The Carebear" Sage TO RUIN THIS GAME.

    hahahaha

     

    Look dude..

    Pandora's box is still locked for the mmos.

    Just let them do what the heck they want.In the end they are the ones they loose and not you.

    You can always find good games to play.And even if you cant find them in mmos you can find them in single players.

    If some day they manage to open pandoras box they may find the true solution....till then just watch them what crap they create and laugh at them.

    Cheers have a nice evening

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