Dear ZOS, Please Don't Let Paul Sage Wreck This Game...

Dihoru · March 2013

Originally posted by Livnthedream
Originally posted by Maelwydd
Some more questions.

Does your race determine faction pride or your faction?

Immaterial. The majority will go with whatever they choose first since the choice is often made for them.

If you could independently choose race and faction, would you feel less faction pride for the faction you chose?

Yes. Being able to identify with the other factions is bad. Identifying allows you to sympathize, which is something you do not want when setting up an "us vs them" mentality.

If after you chose a faction the same rules as currently used (i.e. you are free to travel until you chose a faction, then you would be faction locked and friendly faction area's would be your PvE questing area) how would that change the current dynamic?

See above.

You must be a very simple individual to require someone to identify your targets of hate.

Livnthedream · March 2013

Originally posted by Dihoru

You must be a very simple individual to require someone to identify your targets of hate.

Be careful with your idea of superiority, you are talking about pretty much the entirety of the first world. Maybe you should look at the links i posted above too, and that is merely the tip of the iceberg.

Maelwydd · March 2013

Simple surmise of your posts livin....you have a very blinkered view. While watching the video's my overiding thought was...this is probably true for stupid people. Not implying you are stupid yourself but you are reaching and looking too hard for justifications when the simple answer is that it is your OPINION and is not a FACT.

hayakko · March 2013

I've been a TES fan since Morrowind, but I'm also a fan of sandbox free PvP games such Ultima Online. I love the aspects of exploration and random combat in a freely responsive world where your actions matter and have longing consequences. Having said that, it comes to this: Mage's Guild, Fighter's, Thief's Guild, Dark Brottherhood, etc. These are the only factions I would care to join in ESO, all the rest is machinations and narrow-minded design.

I would be more than pleased if things were inverted as of the current state of affairs, like our toons were allowed to roam freely thru all the areas, quest and PvP in ANY place all along Tamriel. Only when you hit 50 and after having travelled the whole continent you could measure the world view of these 3 factions to come to a decision which one you should support in RvR PvP to conquer Cyrodiil and the emperor throne.

/discuss

Livnthedream · March 2013

Originally posted by Maelwydd
Simple surmise of your posts livin....you have a very blinkered view. While watching the video's my overiding thought was...this is probably true for stupid people. Not implying you are stupid yourself but you are reaching and looking too hard for justifications when the simple answer is that it is your OPINION and is not a FACT.

So I should trust the random guy on the internet who repeatedly insults anyone who disagrees with them over the "opinion" of mulitple highly successful individuals, including phd's, and the sorts of people companies like Google and Apple consult with. Yep, that makes sooo much logical sense. I know, the data is hard to accept but come on. Like I said, that is just the tip of the iceberg, you can dive into the psychology of it yourself if you want, google is right there afterall.

Sovrath · March 2013

Originally posted by Iselin

I guess that really must be a difficult concept to understand.

It's not a difficult concept to understand.

We just don't care.

My sense is that a good many elder scrolls fans want an elder scrolls game. The idea that we are discussing, in earnest, this whole DAoC pvp thing is ludicrous.

Don't get me wrong I love pvp, and as I said to the OP, if you "really dont' want to be carebear open it up". Apparently he thinks faction warfare is more hardcore than the entire server gunning for you. But "whatever".

Having 3 armies contesting for the throne and then having areas of the world not affected by the war isn't really a big deal "for the people who don't care".

The issue here is that we have a group willing to buy into the "story" Zenimax has created in that "you now hate X because we said so". Whereas, many who are interested in pvp, are probably more interested in "We hate that group because of how they act, what they did, who they attacked in our guild, what they did once they got the throne, etc".

There are people who just want an "Elder Scrolls Game Online" but a contingent of the DAoC crowd is salivating for DAoC 2. So sure, that's how they made it and they are going to do what they want but that's not going to stop others from scratching their head and asking "how did all this DAoC stuff get into my Elder Scrolls".

Maelwydd · March 2013

Originally posted by Livnthedream

Nope, the game is whatever the developers want it to be. Get off the entitlement train.

Well the difference between a developer in a job and an unemployed one is that the one in a job designs games that people want to play. You can call it entitlement but when you are talking about a consumer then that is a very big consideration. The consumer will not buy something they don't want (or at least rarely) so the developers, if they are any good, will make the product they feel will sell well. And guess what, they are changing the design because it would appear they realise there is a disparity between their vision of what their customerbase want and what they originally thought they wanted.

Maelwydd · March 2013

Originally posted by Livnthedream
Originally posted by Maelwydd
Simple surmise of your posts livin....you have a very blinkered view. While watching the video's my overiding thought was...this is probably true for stupid people. Not implying you are stupid yourself but you are reaching and looking too hard for justifications when the simple answer is that it is your OPINION and is not a FACT.

So I should trust the random guy on the internet who repeatedly insults anyone who disagrees with them over the "opinion" of mulitple highly successful individuals, including phd's, and the sorts of people companies like Google and Apple consult with. Yep, that makes sooo much logical sense. I know, the data is hard to accept but come on. Like I said, that is just the tip of the iceberg, you can dive into the psychology of it yourself if you want, google is right there afterall.

Not my fault the majority of the planet are dumb fucks. But it is still your OPINION that you need race and faction locks to have faction pride. I disagree.

Lukekini · March 2013

Why do people prefer to be prideful before open minded these days. I would like to at my constructive thoughts to this post, but everyone is too busy trying to one-up eachother. Videos of social interaction and engineering does not convey anything. Anyone can take anything from those videos. FvFvF is there for sure. The option to interact with communication and grouping MIGHT be there. How will it truely effect gameplay? The best examples should probably be taken from games with similar situations.

Stop arguing with eachother and find areas you can agree on or this is a complete and utter waste of your time.

Open your mindddd...

Maelwydd · March 2013

Originally posted by hayakko
I've been a TES fan since Morrowind, but I'm also a fan of sandbox free PvP games such Ultima Online. I love the aspects of exploration and random combat in a freely responsive world where your actions matter and have longing consequences. Having said that, it comes to this: Mage's Guild, Fighter's, Thief's Guild, Dark Brottherhood, etc. These are the only factions I would care to join in ESO, all the rest is machinations and narrow-minded design.

I would be more than pleased if things were inverted as of the current state of affairs, like our toons were allowed to roam freely thru all the areas, quest and PvP in ANY place all along Tamriel. Only when you hit 50 and after having travelled the whole continent you could measure the world view of these 3 factions to come to a decision which one you should support in RvR PvP to conquer Cyrodiil and the emperor throne.

/discuss

Good points and I wish they had designed the game without so much restrictions in place and more like your examples. But the good news is they are gradually moving more towards an open game rather then the narrow design of DAOC. While I would love to think that is because of the many people who have stated their displeasure on the design I suspect it is more to do with their internal testing during Alpha and Beta and the feedback they have received.

Po_gg · March 2013

Originally posted by Stizzled

But, that's not what this thread was about. This thread was about the supposed danger of ESO becoming more like ES and less like DAoC. I don't think that any ES fan would have a problem with that and I don't understand why any DAoC fan would either, especially when you consider that there is another, strictly PvP, game being made specifically for them.

This, and

Originally posted by Sovrath

My sense is that a good many elder scrolls fans want an elder scrolls game. The idea that we are discussing, in earnest, this whole DAoC pvp thing is ludicrous.
...
There are people who just want an "Elder Scrolls Game Online" but a contingent of the DAoC crowd is salivating for DAoC 2. So sure, that's how they made it and they are going to do what they want but that's not going to stop others from scratching their head and asking "how did all this DAoC stuff get into my Elder Scrolls".

this I wrote similar before, and I'm pretty sure a lot of ES fans would agree as well.

Edit: and to say "Get off the entitlement train" for those who are indeed asking how all these DAoC crap got into their ES game called Elder Scrolls Online... well, that's a bit cheap I think

Livnthedream · March 2013

Originally posted by Maelwydd

Well the difference between a developer in a job and an unemployed one is that the one in a job designs games that people want to play. You can call it entitlement but when you are talking about a consumer then that is a very big consideration. The consumer will not buy something they don't want (or at least rarely) so the developers, if they are any good, will make the product they feel will sell well. And guess what, they are changing the design because it would appear they realise there is a disparity between their vision of what their customerbase want and what they originally thought they wanted.

Very common misconception. You will never know the actual reason why any of those changes are made (unless someone squeals, which will not happen if they wish to remain in the industry). Whether it was something hotly debated amongst the dev team itself and was overturned by one or more producers, or whether the backlash was so high that corperate decided to step in. It would not be the first title that either has happened on. Hell, it could be that was entirely the plan all along and they released misinformation to stir buzz. Welcome to how marketing works. I mean the metrics rather often show that gamers do much different than they say they are going to, and that you cannot judge the game based on forums. At best forums work as an early warning system. That is what happens when the tiniest of percents visit forums in the first place.

Originally posted by Maelwydd

Not my fault the majority of the planet are dumb fucks. But it is still your OPINION that you need race and faction locks to have faction pride. I disagree.

The planet (which is a hilarious statement btw) is not "dumb". At best you can say ignorant. Even then the first world is getting progressively smarter. Whether the game is going to be right for you is pretty silly considering the sheer number that never touch a forum and will buy the game. I mean even if you overrexagerated and said there are 1,000 unique users on this subforum arguing its a tiny drop compared to the 1,000,000+ that will buy in the first month, and no its not even a representative margin based on ever bit of data ever collected. That is not opinion.

Dihoru · March 2013

Originally posted by Livnthedream
Originally posted by Dihoru

You must be a very simple individual to require someone to identify your targets of hate.

Be careful with your idea of superiority, you are talking about pretty much the entirety of the first world. Maybe you should look at the links i posted above too, and that is merely the tip of the iceberg.

If by entirety of the first world you mean the dregs politicians dupe to get reelected and who cannot form a coherent train of logic then by all means yes that is the first world, thank god there are billions of people in the 2nd and 3rd who at least know better ^^.

Now if you want to continue acting like you're somehow part of a bigger group of people than you are, this isn't a pre-1960s world mind you, go right ahead but if you want to use that same argument to push your own narrowminded views on others then prepare for a little wakeup call (christ even the US is waking up to the idea that getting their target identified by people with sketchy motives is not the way to go).

Livnthedream · March 2013

Originally posted by Po_gg
Edit: and to say "Get off the entitlement train" for those who are indeed asking how all these DAoC crap got into their ES game called Elder Scrolls Online... well, that's a bit cheap I think

You would have a point if it were the first ip to change up "traditional" elements of gameplay for a new audience. Its not. It's not even the first game in THIS ip to do that. You attempting to dictate to the creators what the game should be when it is them making it is entirely entitlement.

Livnthedream · March 2013

Originally posted by Dihoru
If by entirety of the first world you mean the dregs politicians dupe to get reelected and who cannot form a coherent train of logic then by all means yes that is the first world, thank god there are billions of people in the 2nd and 3rd who at least know better ^^.

Now if you want to continue acting like you're somehow part of a bigger group of people than you are, this isn't a pre-1960s world mind you, go right ahead but if you want to use that same argument to push your own narrowminded views on others then prepare for a little wakeup call (christ even the US is waking up to the idea that getting their target identified by people with sketchy motives is not the way to go).

What narrow viewpoint? Its a varifiable fact. You can make the argument that correlation does not mean causation on a single, or even very limited set of data, but its repeated constantly. Choice is good, more choice is not better. That is a rather simple concept that is pretty easy to identify no matter how much you want to disagree with it. If you really have another viewpoint based on data, feel free to share it. I showed you mine, show me yours.

Dihoru · March 2013

Originally posted by Livnthedream
Originally posted by Dihoru
If by entirety of the first world you mean the dregs politicians dupe to get reelected and who cannot form a coherent train of logic then by all means yes that is the first world, thank god there are billions of people in the 2nd and 3rd who at least know better ^^.

Now if you want to continue acting like you're somehow part of a bigger group of people than you are, this isn't a pre-1960s world mind you, go right ahead but if you want to use that same argument to push your own narrowminded views on others then prepare for a little wakeup call (christ even the US is waking up to the idea that getting their target identified by people with sketchy motives is not the way to go).

What narrow viewpoint? Its a varifiable fact. You can make the argument that correlation does not mean causation on a single, or even very limited set of data, but its repeated constantly. Choice is good, more choice is not better. That is a rather simple concept that is pretty easy to identify no matter how much you want to disagree with it. If you really have another viewpoint based on data, feel free to share it. I showed you mine, show me yours.

The more choice the better, if within your culture you dislike choice that does not mean it is a universal constant, true there's a very sizeable portion of the population which due to one reason or another won't like a total freedom of choice but to say that number is big enough to constitute a majority of the population is...laughable because the trend towards better education on all continents has given rise to an increase in the desire for choices. It is only the more base elements of a society which requires hand holding and being told what to think, eat, breath and hate and those base elements more often than not are a product of societal pressure than evolution.

To put it even more bluntly: If things were as you stated why in recent years have so many things suddenly and irrevocably shifted despite your mindset that more choice is worse than less? (these shifts are because people have chosen things which were outside the normal set of choices given to them by the status quo within their geographical/societal/political area).

Vendac · March 2013

Is it not time to make something different in an MMO? The WoW formula has been done to death has it not? People need something different to pull them away from what they are doing and then it needs to be good enough to get them to stay.

If ESO is not significantly different than what is out there, people will not play it, or they may play it for a short time and leave. Look at games like Rift, GW2, etc as examples. Rift is WoW 2.0 with alot less content. People got bored of Rift and went back to WoW. GW2 is a solid game at heart, but the end game is certainly not PvP and the PvE is meh at best.

Those that complain about PvP, yes this is a 3 realm game. Yes, there are factions. Do things like this build realm pride? Damn right they do. Should you be able to talk to the other realms, maybe. Thats up to the devs. Myself, I prefer the old school DAOC way where you killed someone, then went and taunted them on the VN Boards. But that was a different time. As far being able to play with the other factions in a huggy-feely love fest for PvE, I dont think they need to allow it. All the classes are mirrored in this game, so other than to appease the the role playing crowd, there is no reason to allow the factions to mix with each other.

One thing that is almost guaranteed as that you will see some of the mechanics of DAOC come into this game as Matt Firor was one of the founders of Mythic and built what can still be considered one of the best PvP games ever in DAOC. Taking some of these mechanics and incorporating them into ESO can only be a good thing.

Livnthedream · March 2013

Originally posted by Dihoru
The more choice the better, if within your culture you dislike choice that does not mean it is a universal constant, true there's a very sizeable portion of the population which due to one reason or another won't like a total freedom of choice but to say that number is big enough to constitute a majority of the population is...laughable because the trend towards better education on all continents has given rise to an increase in the desire for choices. It is only the more base elements of a society which requires hand holding and being told what to think, eat, breath and hate and those base elements more often than not are a product of societal pressure than evolution.

To put it even more bluntly: If things were as you stated why in recent years have so many things suddenly and irrevocably shifted despite your mindset that more choice is worse than less? (these shifts are because people have chosen things which were outside the normal set of choices given to them by the status quo within their geographical/societal/political area).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_776297&feature=iv&src_vid=uKByBgqxOw4&v=VO6XEQIsCoM

The argument he presents (you can find much of the data with just a little bit of google work) says otherwise. Like I said, if you wish to change my mind show me some data. Show me a different argument other than random guy on the internet says something.

Maelwydd · March 2013

Originally posted by Livnthedream

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_776297&feature=iv&src_vid=uKByBgqxOw4&v=VO6XEQIsCoM

The argument he presents (you can find much of the data with just a little bit of google work) says otherwise. Like I said, if you wish to change my mind show me some data. Show me a different argument other than random guy on the internet says something.

Ironic really because to me, you and the guy in the video are both random guys on the internet.

Can I make a wild guess that you are studying some sort of sociology course at the moment and because fresh in your studies you think these video's you post mean something more then someone expressing an opinion?

Livnthedream · March 2013

Ironic really because to me, you and the guy in the video are both random guys on the internet.

Can I make a wild guess that you are studying some sort of sociology course at the moment and because fresh in your studies you think these video's you post mean something more then someone expressing an opinion?

He holds a BA and a Phd, and is a professor at a prestigious school. He is far from "random".

Naw, looking into psychology is nothing but a hobby. Understanding why and what people do can be rather important in the line of work I am going into.

Maelwydd · March 2013

Originally posted by Livnthedream

Ironic really because to me, you and the guy in the video are both random guys on the internet.

Can I make a wild guess that you are studying some sort of sociology course at the moment and because fresh in your studies you think these video's you post mean something more then someone expressing an opinion?

He holds a BA and a Phd, and is a professor at a prestigious school. He is far from "random".

Naw, looking into psychology is nothing but a hobby. Understanding why and what people do can be rather important in the line of work I am going into.

Well to me he is random. What he says makes sence in a clinical abstract way. And I guess to people who can't make up their mind he might be right. Not to me though, sorry.

And using a quote from your video, you might be happy with TESO having faction locks but I am not happy to simply say "You'll do". I know what I want, I don't have low expectations, I just have defined expectations. You can keep youre low expectations and play any dross that gets produced but I will not.

Oh, and way to go to make such a simple thing as a design option in a video game into some dramatic life or death philosophical and social experiment into the human psyche!

Sovrath · March 2013

Originally posted by Vendac
Is it not time to make something different in an MMO? The WoW formula has been done to death has it not? People need something different to pull them away from what they are doing and then it needs to be good enough to get them to stay.

If ESO is not significantly different than what is out there, people will not play it, or they may play it for a short time and leave. Look at games like Rift, GW2, etc as examples. Rift is WoW 2.0 with alot less content. People got bored of Rift and went back to WoW. GW2 is a solid game at heart, but the end game is certainly not PvP and the PvE is meh at best.

Those that complain about PvP, yes this is a 3 realm game. Yes, there are factions. Do things like this build realm pride? Damn right they do. Should you be able to talk to the other realms, maybe. Thats up to the devs. Myself, I prefer the old school DAOC way where you killed someone, then went and taunted them on the VN Boards. But that was a different time. As far being able to play with the other factions in a huggy-feely love fest for PvE, I dont think they need to allow it. All the classes are mirrored in this game, so other than to appease the the role playing crowd, there is no reason to allow the factions to mix with each other.

One thing that is almost guaranteed as that you will see some of the mechanics of DAOC come into this game as Matt Firor was one of the founders of Mythic and built what can still be considered one of the best PvP games ever in DAOC. Taking some of these mechanics and incorporating them into ESO can only be a good thing.

Ok, but there's nothing about "Elder Scrolls" in your post. You are "about DAoC". This is the crux of the matter.

Now,I have no problem with 3 Faction pvp or ffa pvp or any type of pvp. But since the series was about exploration, making your character into what you want it to be, going where you want to go and doing what you want to do it's difficult to then be greeted with "Hey guys, they are finally making an elder scrolls game... AND THE WORLD IS GOING TO BE CUT UP AND PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE FORCED INTO FACTIONS YAY!!!!!!"

Sorry but it's a bit anachronistic for a series that was about choice.

And I don't see these arguments from the "three faction pvp crowd " (I can assume that it's a DAoC crowd but that might not be the case) arguing that this model will make for a better elder scrolls experience. It's all about it making the game a better DAoC 2.0

So sure, this is how they have made it, I completely understand, as others have said, that if you are going to make a 3 faction pvp game one might want to follow a format the was known to work. But again, it's not really beyond the pale that there are elder scrolls fans scratching their heads asking "why are we talking about this again?"

edit: and for the record I am satisfied with the way that they currently opened up the game world as a concession as I am not one that believes a consensus between two opposign sides isn't without give and take.

It's still not going to stop me from expressing my real desire to have a full fledged Elder Srolls game based on choice.

Dihoru · March 2013

Originally posted by Livnthedream

Ironic really because to me, you and the guy in the video are both random guys on the internet.

Can I make a wild guess that you are studying some sort of sociology course at the moment and because fresh in your studies you think these video's you post mean something more then someone expressing an opinion?

He holds a BA and a Phd, and is a professor at a prestigious school. He is far from "random".

Naw, looking into psychology is nothing but a hobby. Understanding why and what people do can be rather important in the line of work I am going into.

Psychology has been repeatedly proven to be at best a imprecise science, at worse a pseudo-science so excuse the people who have a little more than a "see this guy has a phd and knows shit!" argument. I've know people both younger and way older than you who've shown more than just a passing tendency to choose their own courses in life regardless of the currents society imposes on their generation and I've seen that the number of people who do this is a Hell of allot bigger than what it was when I was younger. Have fun posting youtube vids with jaded knowitalls though, pshychology has always been a running joke to anyone with an IQ north of 120.

Hjamnr · March 2013

Originally posted by Sovrath Ok, but there's nothing about "Elder Scrolls" in your post. You are "about DAoC". This is the crux of the matter.
Now,I have no problem with 3 Faction pvp or ffa pvp or any type of pvp. But since the series was about exploration, making your character into what you want it to be, going where you want to go and doing what you want to do it's difficult to then be greeted with "Hey guys, they are finally making an elder scrolls game... AND THE WORLD IS GOING TO BE CUT UP AND PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE FORCED INTO FACTIONS YAY!!!!!!"

Sorry but it's a bit anachronistic for a series that was about choice.

And I don't see these arguments from the "three faction pvp crowd " (I can assume that it's a DAoC crowd but that might not be the case) arguing that this model will make for a better elder scrolls experience. It's all about it making the game a better DAoC 2.0

So sure, this is how they have made it, I completely understand, as others have said, that if you are going to make a 3 faction pvp game one might want to follow a format the was known to work. But again, it's not really beyond the pale that there are elder scrolls fans scratching their heads asking "why are we talking about this again?"

With any transition from one medium to another, there are always compromises which have to be made. You see this in book->movie translations all the time.

Elder Scrolls fans need to realize that this cannot be Skyrim, but that you play with other people. It just wouldn't work, akin to trying to put the entirety of "iRobot" onto the big screen... it'd be like 6 hours long, and be hard to follow. There have to be changes, to fit the MMORPG format. If you're going to put PvP in this game, (which you pretty much have to, these days, to have any potential longevity) the best model, with the most proven longevity and retention, is the model which was used by Mythic in thier first MMORPG.

Thankfully, we have Matt, one of the founders of Mythic, running the show at ZMO, to properly guide this design.

Livnthedream · March 2013

Originally posted by Maelwydd
Well to me he is random. What he says makes sence in a clinical abstract way. And I guess to people who can't make up their mind he might be right. Not to me though, sorry.

Wait, so you already know the answer to every dicision you will ever make? Then why are you here again?

And using a quote from your video, you might be happy with TESO having faction locks but I am not happy to simply say "You'll do". I know what I want, I don't have low expectations, I just have defined expectations. You can keep youre low expectations and play any dross that gets produced but I will not.

Wait, so you prejudged a game that you have not even touched yet and have already decided that to play it would be to settle? Again, I ask why exactly are you here? I don't have low expectations. I am interested in what the developers have presented in terms of the rules of this particular game. The ip does not really play into it because ip for the most part is meaningless. This is a large part of the reason why I do not really understand your railing against this. Ip is not the same thing as genre, and no game will ever meet what you have built up in your head for what you believe something should be. That is the very definition of unrealistic expectations. If you honestly think you can do better then you should be putting your money where your mouth is. Get some money together, make a demo and take it to Zenimax and try an sell it. Critiquing something before you have even seen it in action, much less touched it is ignorant at best.

Oh, and way to go to make such a simple thing as a design option in a video game into some dramatic life or death philosophical and social experiment into the human psyche!

Again, the sensationalism in an attempt to discredit. Atleast its not as bad as the outright insults. For someone attempting to tell others that they have low expectations, and that they are settling (I am not even convinced whether or not I will be purchasing the title) you sure are close minded.

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