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Danger in MMORPGs

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  • DisdenaDisdena Troy, NYPosts: 1,093Member

    *dons Psychology Major cap*

    The primary motivation for playing is to experience things that you can't experience in the real world, either because they're not possible or because there is some prohibitive cost or risk. There are many ways that video games try to appeal to gamers. If you want the fantasy of living a magic-wielding hero's life, they can give you that (even though it's impossible in real life). If you want to explore an unknown place, they can give you that (even though it's expensive and risky in real life). If you want an arena where you can prove that you're superior to your peers, they can give you that (even though it's risky in real life).

    A game can take the place of a risky real life situation. And the danger you experience in a game is a substitute for the excitement you would feel from being in such a situation in real life. But the danger is an illusion. That is the whole point of a game. You try, you hope, you sweat, you panic, you frantically push buttons... but you fail! And you sit back and realize it was just a game. It's like watching an intense movie. No matter how wrapped up you get in it and how much anxiety and stress you feel over what the characters are going through, you are always just one head-turn away from stepping out of the experience and seeing the film for the illusion that it is.

    Wanting the risk of "real" loss (as in, substantial loss of virtual items that have a real value in dollars or hours spent) in a game misses the function of a game. The point of a game is to provide an experience without that real-life risk. If you want danger and risk, gamble! Skydive! Day trade! Kickbox! Join the Marines! Start your own business! Move to Darfur! Life is full of rewarding things that have risks attached. If you want to experience danger and you're not satisfied with the illusion of danger in a game, take that as a hint that you can step away from the keyboard and find danger in real life.

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  • BigHatLoganBigHatLogan Bellingham, WAPosts: 688Member

    I tend to get the shakes when fighting in EVE, even if i am just in some crappy frig.  The most terror I think i have ever felt in a video game was fighting those damn curse frogs in Dark Souls.  Why?  Because not only did they one shot you if you didn't kill them quick, they also cursed you so you would spawn with a 50% drop in maximum health in addition to other penalties. 

     

    Not every game needs to have permadeath, other death penalties such as loss of gear or experience loss penalties can also be effective.  One thing that is important is that each game needs to be designed around a specific death penalty.  If WoW had permadeath or full player looting well that probably wouldn't go over too well considering how much time it takes to get gear in that accursed game.  A game like DayZ has permadeath but it is also designed around permadeath.  You don't have to spend weeks leveling a character only to lose him.  Characters are the same statwise and progression is found in scavenged gear. 

     

    There are quite a few sandboxes on the horizon for release and I am optimistic that at least one of them will have some real danger.  Danger will cause such a game to have a great community since players will want to work together to avoid said danger.  Sandbox games tend to target the more hardcore players who like a challenge, so i am hopefully at least one will be dangerous, but i guess we will have to see what various developers give us.

    Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
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    I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by BigHatLogan

    There are quite a few sandboxes on the horizon for release and I am optimistic that at least one of them will have some real danger.  Danger will cause such a game to have a great community since players will want to work together to avoid said danger.  Sandbox games tend to target the more hardcore players who like a challenge, so i am hopefully at least one will be dangerous, but i guess we will have to see what various developers give us.

    So many unproven assumptions here.

    Danger will cause a great community? You don't need to work together .. you just need to be careful. In fact, not relying on others not to screw up is probably a good strategy.

    What is the most popular perma-death game .. yes, it is D3. It is not a sandbox .. and not even a proper MMO.

     

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by Waterlily

    Originally posted by BigHatLogan
    I never played EQ1, but i heard horror stories from players that certainly sounded like they felt fear.  Perhaps due to xp loss penalties and impossible corpse runs.
    Basically if you died in EQ you left a corpse behind with all your gear and items on it and you were kicked to your bind spot which could be hours away from where you died. You were naked, literally. You also lost a substantial amount of XP, often losing your current level.You weren't an invulnerable ghost like in WoW, you were just a regular player but now naked and all your belongins were somewhere far away out of reach.There was also a danger of being new to a zone and not exactly knowing where you died anymore. Mobs did not unleash like in new games, they would follow you for miles, you would often have no clue where you died.What happened to a group who died or a single player who died is that they often needed help, imagine dying next to lvl 40 mobs, now you are basically screwed, how are you going to get your corpse back naked. You need assistance and you need to reach out to people in the zone and make contact with people and notify everyone you need help. You needed necromancers to run to you to that zone to summon your corpse away, or other groups to clear a path for you or IVU buffs to keep you invisible (but this was risky since invisibility is not stable in EQ), basically you needed help.Result = community organisation, discussions, friends
    A good write-up of dieing in EQ. Another option was to trust a stranger to have total control over your corpse and have them drag it to a safe place. While they had control, they could go into your corpse's inventory and take things. A player had to execute a command in order to give another that power. A player could also try getting close enough to their corpse in order to drag it safety themselves, but the MOBs did not usually cooperate for that :)

    Losing corpses was a common event in EQ. Bards had a low level "find corpse" song and Necromancers could summon someone's corpse, like you said. Before they added in maps, losing a corpse was much more prevalent. Sometimes, players would wander for hours simply looking for their corpse. Most players would think is stupid. Many times, it gave players a good story to share with others during downtime.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    A good write-up of dieing in EQ. Another option was to trust a stranger to have total control over your corpse and have them drag it to a safe place. While they had control, they could go into your corpse's inventory and take things. A player had to execute a command in order to give another that power. A player could also try getting close enough to their corpse in order to drag it safety themselves, but the MOBs did not usually cooperate for that :)

    That is another thing wrong with EQ (for me). Why would i want to trust a stranger to my gaming happiness?

  • RajCajRajCaj Lafayette, LAPosts: 706Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by RajCaj

    1) acheivement in a game is an illusion.

    2) You don't need any death penalty for the epleen kind of achievemnt. Just look at world first hard mode raid kills. or look at Diabloprogress, or wow-hero, or gear score. People can "feel" the illusion of achievement in many ways.

    1) Of course it's an illusion...so is the entire game, if you're going to take it to that phylisophical level.  That said, people that typically get into MMOs are a willing acomplice of this illusion.  These folks usually have an easier time suspending disbelief and accept the illusion whole sale.  So if perception is reality....then for these folks, the illusion is real.

     But it means that you don't need real challenges of harsh consequences to maintain the illusion. There are many psychological tricks to do that. In fact, the proof is in what is happening ... most games don't have harsh consequences .. and people still hook onto progression.

    2) The degree of difficulty in heroics, raids, accumulating gear scores are more of logistical challenges...not so much difficulty of the encounter itself.  Heroics are harder because the NPCs have more HP / MP, and deal more damage (with a few additional gimmicks).  Getting a high gear score is hard because of the time invested & social network needed to have access to the gear that provides the high score.  Not because of the need to be perfect in execution...else lose your arse.

    Not in defeating bosses. Look at world first. Not many guilds have players good enough to do hard mode raids. That is not logistical. But the point is this ... the illusion is easily maintained. Gearscore is very popualr and effective .. and you don't need any real consequences in gameplay to use that as a way to make the achievement illusion.

    Look at the popularity of wow-progress, diabloprogress .. and website like that.

     

    Different degrees of dificulty...

     

    Let me see if I can clarify....what I mean is, there are different types of difficulty, that yield different types of responses.

    Games with high risk / consequences for failing at something in the game (be it PvP, Crafting, Surviving) provide for a different stimulus / bodily response than in games with lower risk / consequences.

    I've played a good cross section of the two, and there is a recognizable difference.  (NOT saying one is better or superior to the other)

    PvPing in a game like Ultima Online (which has a full loot to the victor system) generated an adreneline rush...sweaty palms & pits, rapid heart beat, hightened senses....that I RARELY experienced in games like WOW, Rift, Aion, Warhammer, etc.  All I had to lose in the former was time running back to the corpse....retaining all gear & ability to continue playing the game.

    PvP encounters in both games can be equally difficult in their own way, but deliver completely different experiences to the end user.

     

    Same for things like crafting.  Crafting can be considered "difficult" in WOW because of all the time needed to farm resources (or farm money to purchase the resources) and crafting junk items to gain a skill level that you can finally make something of value.

    Crafting in a game like Lineage 2, where some crafts only have a 60% success chance, can be considered "difficult" because all the time & money spent on gathering the resources & recipes could all be for not because you had bad luck.  If you've never had an adreneline rush crafting...I suggest you try playing L2.

    Crafting in both games can be equally difficult in their own way, but deliver completely different experiences to the end user.

     

    Some folks enjoy that rush...who typically enjoy the virtual world / old school type of MMO.  Most dont, who typically enjoy progression based / modern MMOs.

  • RajCajRajCaj Lafayette, LAPosts: 706Member
    Originally posted by Disdena

    *dons Psychology Major cap*

    The primary motivation for playing is to experience things that you can't experience in the real world, either because they're not possible or because there is some prohibitive cost or risk. There are many ways that video games try to appeal to gamers. If you want the fantasy of living a magic-wielding hero's life, they can give you that (even though it's impossible in real life). If you want to explore an unknown place, they can give you that (even though it's expensive and risky in real life). If you want an arena where you can prove that you're superior to your peers, they can give you that (even though it's risky in real life).

    A game can take the place of a risky real life situation. And the danger you experience in a game is a substitute for the excitement you would feel from being in such a situation in real life. But the danger is an illusion. That is the whole point of a game. You try, you hope, you sweat, you panic, you frantically push buttons... but you fail! And you sit back and realize it was just a game. It's like watching an intense movie. No matter how wrapped up you get in it and how much anxiety and stress you feel over what the characters are going through, you are always just one head-turn away from stepping out of the experience and seeing the film for the illusion that it is.

    Wanting the risk of "real" loss (as in, substantial loss of virtual items that have a real value in dollars or hours spent) in a game misses the function of a game. The point of a game is to provide an experience without that real-life risk. If you want danger and risk, gamble! Skydive! Day trade! Kickbox! Join the Marines! Start your own business! Move to Darfur! Life is full of rewarding things that have risks attached. If you want to experience danger and you're not satisfied with the illusion of danger in a game, take that as a hint that you can step away from the keyboard and find danger in real life.

    I follow what you're saying, but I'll disagree on what you define as the "point of a game".

     

    My understanding of the point of a game is to perform some action to overcome some obstacle, in order to achieve some desired response.  If the desire of the gamer is to experience an adreneline rush similar to what you'd normally get after accidently running up on a mother bear in the woods (fight or flight), but without the actual risk of losing life or limb, then who's to say that a high risk / consequence type MMO isn't actually a game (or a good one at that) ?

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by RajCaj
     

    Let me see if I can clarify....what I mean is, there are different types of difficulty, that yield different types of responses.

    My issue is that some of the items you mentioned, does not fit the normal English notion of difficulty. I have no issue talking abotu these things .. and be clear about them.

    Games with high risk / consequences for failing at something in the game (be it PvP, Crafting, Surviving) provide for a different stimulus / bodily response than in games with lower risk / consequences.

    How can high risk be difficulty? I can have high risk going to Vegas playing high stake black jack .. which is a very simple game. Heck, i can even just flip a coin. You character has a chance of 10% to die a perma death every 10 min ... that is high risk, but i would not use the word "challenge" or "difficulty".

    I've played a good cross section of the two, and there is a recognizable difference.  (NOT saying one is better or superior to the other)

    PvPing in a game like Ultima Online (which has a full loot to the victor system) generated an adreneline rush...sweaty palms & pits, rapid heart beat, hightened senses....that I RARELY experienced in games like WOW, Rift, Aion, Warhammer, etc.  All I had to lose in the former was time running back to the corpse....retaining all gear & ability to continue playing the game.

    Similarly, adrenaline rush is not difficulty .. it is a response to uncertainly. You can get that by gambling. You don't need challenge to achieve this.

     

    Same for things like crafting.  Crafting can be considered "difficult" in WOW because of all the time needed to farm resources (or farm money to purchase the resources) and crafting junk items to gain a skill level that you can finally make something of value.

    Is the requirement of time difficult? I also take issue of this. If all you do is click or just sit .. is it difficult? Are you saying i am forced to take a 20 min boat ride (it cost me 20 min) .. i do nothing on the boat .. and it is more difficult than flying because it takes 20 min. That just does not gell with the normal notion of being difficult. I would call it easy and boring.

    Crafting in a game like Lineage 2, where some crafts only have a 60% success chance, can be considered "difficult" because all the time & money spent on gathering the resources & recipes could all be for not because you had bad luck.  If you've never had an adreneline rush crafting...I suggest you try playing L2.

    Again, this is like gambling. Is gambling difficult? In D3, you have a small chance to get a legendary, or a good lengedary. Killing the elite is difficult. Click on it and roll ..is not.

    Some folks enjoy that rush...who typically enjoy the virtual world / old school type of MMO.  Most dont, who typically enjoy progression based / modern MMOs.

    Sure .. everyone enjoys different thing. However, if you enjoy the risk, don't call it a challenge. Call it gambling, risk behavior, rush, or something else. Otherwise, communication would not be clear.

     

  • TorikTorik London, ONPosts: 2,343Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Hedeon

    have never felt any kind of fright in a MMO, may have got suprised once or twice in singleplayer games though - no matter what death penalty there have been in a MMO, Ive never felt in danger, in any way, not even in EvE when got shot down in an expensive ship - not to say Ive not been abit meh over it, since it takes awhile to farm the isk for me....but scared no.

    in EQ2 it always baffled me that people would react much on dieing, so you had a minute to wait before going again, who cares about a minute or 2 - if time were that important to a person, they shouldnt play a MMO since you d never have the patience for other peoples screw ups then.

    either way in the end I never felt danger in a MMO, and wouldnt really care about soul runs, other than I like the idea of an extra task....right up untill all that happens is people log off untill they got it back.

    Same here.  I never feel fear in MMORPGs.  I remember once in EVE we were running a mining operation in low sec when a pirate warped right on top of us.  It was a franctic rush to get away but I was not actually scared.  I was frustrated that the work setting up the the op went to waste and I hated that we would have to travel back empty handed.  But there was no fear.  Instead I had the same feeling I get when I am doing a Sudoku, screw up and have to start from scratch. 

    Maybe it is because I just never form emotional bonds with my virtual possessions.  I know that I might get bored with teh game and quit and I can't take virtual property with me.  The achievement is in obtaining the items but there is no achievement in keeping them since it is so trivial to lose them all.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Torik

    Maybe it is because I just never form emotional bonds with my virtual possessions.  I know that I might get bored with teh game and quit and I can't take virtual property with me.  The achievement is in obtaining the items but there is no achievement in keeping them since it is so trivial to lose them all.

    That is why a RMAH is good. You can cash out.

  • TrancerypTranceryp Denver, COPosts: 7Member

    The MMO that truly brought a sense of fear and risk to me was most definitely FFXI.

    I remember when you could die, lose experience, and Level Down from that death. It was devastating at the time but it made you be sure to be careful from then on.

    Also all of the casts you had to put on yourself to not be found ("sneak" "invisible" "smell") and the complexities of various ways that monsters could aggro you was very cool and put you on the edge of your seat if one started to run out. The enemies would chase you forever - until you died, and they would train everything with them until they caught you or you zoned out.

    I've never gotten a dangerous feeling like the one I got from FFXI. FFXI was just so harsh and unforgivable that when you did accomplish a level, or a new item, or a piece of Artifact Armor, that it was just an amazing feeling. That game also made sure that you played with others and it created an immense sense of community because of the danger that the world contained.

    MMO's today are just easy and casual fun. Nothing has ever scared me in them and the world feels very tame compared to the harsh realities of what FFXI was back in the day...

    I'm kind of sad (but understand) why FFXIV:ARR will not be nearly as unforgiving as FFXI was. The majority of people that play MMO's today are not used to the hardcore playstyle the older MMOs exhibited. They would not be able to handle steep death penalities like EXP loss, EQUIP loss, etc. and the game would end up suffering because people would inevitibly complain for change.

    RIP old, scary, dangerous, challenging ways of MMO games...

  • RajCajRajCaj Lafayette, LAPosts: 706Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by RajCaj
     

     

     

    We are getting into symantics here....

    When I say Crafing in Lineage 2 is difficult (because of a dice roll), i mean it is difficult to get a particular piece of crafted gear.  What adds the degree of difficulty to obtaining the gear?  The significant probability of potentially failing, and having to start farming all the resources and/or gold again to give it another shot. 

    Clicking the craft button is not, in itself difficult.  Obtaining the item is.

     

    The same with the added risk componet to PvP...

    It is difficult to be successful PvPing in a game like Ultima Online, because to do so, you have to be able to sustain the ability to be effective & competitive in PvP....which relys on being geared & having regents / bandages/ potions, etc.  If you loose all your items from dying (high consequence), you don't have the requisite gear to continue to PvP....or at the very least farm resources so that you can be properly geared to get back in the PvP scene.

    Difficulty, in the sense of being able to sustain capability to continue to be competitive in PvP, is of a lesser degree in games like WOW, where the worst that can happen is that a piece of gear gets damaged so much that it becomes innefective....but can be returned to function with relatively low repair cost.

  • BananaramaaBananaramaa StroudPosts: 34Member

    I feel like not being able to run and have death penalties like in FFXI was a very solid mechanic for this. It was always tense, fight or die as another poster said.

    Same goes for single player games, it's not grind to put in big penalties for loss. Games should be frustrating to some degree. They need some tension and not to be just all perfect happy clappy bullshit like gw2.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by RajCaj
     

    We are getting into symantics here....

    When I say Crafing in Lineage 2 is difficult (because of a dice roll), i mean it is difficult to get a particular piece of crafted gear.  What adds the degree of difficulty to obtaining the gear?  The significant probability of potentially failing, and having to start farming all the resources and/or gold again to give it another shot. 

    I suppose it is semantic.

    You can say it is "difficult" to win money from a casino because of the odds. However, when in discussion, you may want to make it clear. Because "this" difficulty is certainly not the same kind that requires player skill to be a difficult encounter.

     

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member
    Originally posted by Bananaramaa

    I feel like not being able to run and have death penalties like in FFXI was a very solid mechanic for this. It was always tense, fight or die as another poster said.

    Same goes for single player games, it's not grind to put in big penalties for loss. Games should be frustrating to some degree. They need some tension and not to be just all perfect happy clappy bullshit like gw2.

    Well maybe, but I know for damned sure that those jumping puzzles made me sweat more than any PvP match I've ever played.

  • BananaramaaBananaramaa StroudPosts: 34Member
    Yeah and they were a great idea, but it's just a side and not the core of the game IMO.
  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
         I haven't felt danger since my EQ days...  There have been many times in EQ, i've been heard to say "SHIT SHIT SHIT" in real life while running for safety.. LOL  Those days are gone.. Games today all you have to do is run 30 feet away and mobs reset, or just take your chances, die, then pay for the repair bill...... Really?  There is no feeling of consequences or loss, so why should I fear anything?  MMO's today are like that consome game where all you have to do is press "Save Now".. NO challenge there.. But the masses demand easy play and they are the ones that pay the bills by the millions..  oh well
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Rydeson
         I haven't felt danger since my EQ days...  There have been many times in EQ, i've been heard to say "SHIT SHIT SHIT" in real life while running for safety.. LOL  Those days are gone.. Games today all you have to do is run 30 feet away and mobs reset, or just take your chances, die, then pay for the repair bill...... Really?  There is no feeling of consequences or loss, so why should I fear anything?  MMO's today are like that consome game where all you have to do is press "Save Now".. NO challenge there.. But the masses demand easy play and they are the ones that pay the bills by the millions..  oh well

    You have never been in a raid, and the boss is down to 5% .. and you go "shit shit shit" and wiped?

  • EverwestEverwest Como, MOPosts: 75Member

    FFXI was definitely great at creating tension, but it also led to many people QUITTING, lest we forget.  Most players hated that aspect of the game. 

    The thing is, most people really only have so much capacity to get that "SHIT SHIT SHIT" feeling while playing a video game.  For many people it's going to be roughly the same whether it costed you five minutes of progress or five hours, because dying pretty universally sucks.  It runs contrary to our goal.  The only question is going to be how frustrated you are by your failure. 

    I wish I could show a graph to demonstrate, but basically, at a certain point, for every level you crank up the tension, you crank up the frustration exponentially more.  That "SHIT SHIT SHIT" feeling no longer resolves into, "Well, it'll take me 10 minutes to get back to where I was," and instead turns into ragequit.

    As I said earlier in the thread, this is different for people with a tendency towards thrillseeking.  So if that sounds appealing to you, I suggest staying clear of casinos.

  • BananaramaaBananaramaa StroudPosts: 34Member

    Striking the right balance is key, the problem is modern MMOs have just gone way too far in the opposite direction. It feels so wrong when you can just run away and lost hate from the mob instantly. Even easy single player games aren't usually like that.

    I love frustrating games, but I'm not crying for full loot perma death or anything. Just some basic danger mechanics is all I'd ask of an MMO.

  • znaiikaznaiika denver, PAPosts: 203Member

    Do you people even know what it is you are asking for?

    Be reasonable, you are asking, not to be able to come back to aid your alias in desparate time when your teritorry is under attack, if you down grade in your level, that means, you are powerles, and you have to level up again, which means another few days to grind to that level you where downgraed from, to be able to aid/defend your teritory again.

    You loose youre privilage to territory. that is not the way of PVP.

    This is, what it mean to have a death penalty.

  • DisdenaDisdena Troy, NYPosts: 1,093Member
    Originally posted by Everwest

    The thing is, most people really only have so much capacity to get that "SHIT SHIT SHIT" feeling while playing a video game.  For many people it's going to be roughly the same whether it costed you five minutes of progress or five hours, because dying pretty universally sucks.  It runs contrary to our goal.  The only question is going to be how frustrated you are by your failure. 

    I wish I could show a graph to demonstrate, but basically, at a certain point, for every level you crank up the tension, you crank up the frustration exponentially more.  That "SHIT SHIT SHIT" feeling no longer resolves into, "Well, it'll take me 10 minutes to get back to where I was," and instead turns into ragequit.

    Agreed. If I'm immersed in the game experience, all I'm thinking about is the situation I'm in and the actions I need to take. For me, any feelings of panic, dread, etc. come from my desire to avoid failing, not from the effect that failure would have on me as a player. The only thing that changes is how I feel immediately after failing.

    If the penalty for dying is much too light, then it can be difficult for me to feel like it's important to avoid dying, and then I won't have strong feelings about trying to win. But beyond that "I-care-about-not-dying" threshhold, piling on even worse penalties doesn't make me any more excited during a tight situation or more happy when I pull through and live. It only changes how I feel after failing and stepping out of the fantasy and back into reality.

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  • daltaniousdaltanious waPosts: 2,144Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BigHatLogan

    Does anyone else feal that lack of danger makes MMORPGs and sRPGs feel stale?  ...

    No.

  • xeniarxeniar Posts: 805Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Rydeson
         I haven't felt danger since my EQ days...  There have been many times in EQ, i've been heard to say "SHIT SHIT SHIT" in real life while running for safety.. LOL  Those days are gone.. Games today all you have to do is run 30 feet away and mobs reset, or just take your chances, die, then pay for the repair bill...... Really?  There is no feeling of consequences or loss, so why should I fear anything?  MMO's today are like that consome game where all you have to do is press "Save Now".. NO challenge there.. But the masses demand easy play and they are the ones that pay the bills by the millions..  oh well

    You have never been in a raid, and the boss is down to 5% .. and you go "shit shit shit" and wiped?

    Lol. you are now mixing 2 diffrent feelings.

    Shit shit shit in his case. is OMFG i don't wanna die ge the fuck away from me monsters. while flailing arms around panicking. So this induces Panick / fear / mabey sorrow for the loss of exp etc a feeling of yes danger. you cannot carelessly do stuff.

    your shit shit shit. is a ragemode because you failed the boss. it has no further consequenses other then you getting angry. If its a new boss youl pick yourself up and try it again. if its an old boss youl just get mad at whatever people do the failing.

    2 completely diffrent things.

  • macklelessmackleless LondonPosts: 3Member
    Absolutely agree with you in this point - but then you need anger managent - some can do by thereselves, others need to learn that!
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