I don't see interaction for interaction's sake (social) as a primary aspect of MMORPGs, even the old ones. I don't see them in the same way I see Facebook.
On the other side, I do think interaction as part of the gaming process is dying out. Developers have gradually removed aspects of game mechanics that force or encourage interaction.
Then again, given the quality of the game communities... Can you blame them?
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
Originally posted by almalexius Ow come on that is complete rubbish. You are not in there to communicate are you? I'm in there to play a game so the comparison with some of those communities makes no sense at all.
Maybe you are not, but believe it or not, a lot of people are in there to communicate. I'd even say without these people the MMORPG as a genre would not take root in the first place, as multiplayer games like Quake would suffice.
I remember the first few years I got to play MMOs. The common joke I kept hearing was that people weren't playing for the gameplay, they were playing despite the gameplay.
Even in WOW, the MMO that - for many - brought polished combat to the MMO scene, I remember a lot of people getting bored of the game itself and just sticking around for the community.
I just watched Garrett Fuller's interview with EverQuest Next lead Dave Georgeson, and to me, he seems to be pushing to break out of the combat bind MMOs have stuck themselves into. And he, for one, seems to think that combat doesn't make the game but social interaction does.
Anyone game that is all instance, sharded, had movie scenes and only have one option to level questing isn't a MMO. Don't forget if the MMO lists Raiding as a end game it is a fail already. MMO do not have a end game and great MMOs will be playable for years. You have to take away the mind set of leveling and make it fun to play again for the 1st level to the last level.
Well that's my conclusion after thinking about it.
While MMO do well and sell well, they are not really MMO anymore, they're all small scale dungeon instancers (LoL, Vindictus), solo quest grinders (WoW SWOTOR), , or glorified action Hack & Slash multiplayer games (Tera, GW2).
I haven't seen a game with a true community where the primary focus was the world and human interaction and the gameplay came second in MMO in a number of years. Now the gameplay is frist and if it isn't too much trouble maybe you'll be interacting with someone too, and if no ones interacts, join an artificial bubble called a guild and interact in the bubble.
Most people don't need MMO to interact online, there are plenty of chat opportunities, facebook, twitter, disqus, liveFire, forums, email, messengers, smartphones, youtube. You have all these ways to interact with people you want, there is way too much noise to make a world where people will be truly immersed and willing to spend time with each other in a game outside of gameplay.
There's no need for it anymore, there are thousands of other and arguably better ways to interact online.
I think the term MMO lives on even though the games are now becomes multiplayer action games, but the idea behind MMO is long gone I think, it's replaced by other communities online that are far easier and more effective way to interact.
While there is truth to your post, take a game like WoW for example; there is a large enough playerbase in it where it houses a sizable subset of players who login strictly for social interaction. I think there are a few that have just that, you might just have to dig deeper to find it.
I tell ya, there's nothing like a nice solid Crosley Kettle. I miss those days.
MMOs are dying in the same way that the telephone has.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
its not that mmos are dying, its just that they suck now. either devs or the suits are chasing the wow dream and making crappy games. noone is gonna outWoW WoW. just aint gonna happen. as soon as all these idiot devs and companies wake up and start making good games again the mmo genre will be just fine.
of course mmos as you describe are all the old ones. if you want that interaction it is there, you just have to play a 10 year plus game. anything from 2004 on your not going to find a meaningful game, just a bunch of add people on their current themepark ride.
Originally posted by almalexius Ow come on that is complete rubbish. You are not in there to communicate are you? I'm in there to play a game so the comparison with some of those communities makes no sense at all.
Maybe you are not, but believe it or not, a lot of people are in there to communicate. I'd even say without these people the MMORPG as a genre would not take root in the first place, as multiplayer games like Quake would suffice.
I remember the first few years I got to play MMOs. The common joke I kept hearing was that people weren't playing for the gameplay, they were playing despite the gameplay.
Even in WOW, the MMO that - for many - brought polished combat to the MMO scene, I remember a lot of people getting bored of the game itself and just sticking around for the community.
I just watched Garrett Fuller's interview with EverQuest Next lead Dave Georgeson, and to me, he seems to be pushing to break out of the combat bind MMOs have stuck themselves into. And he, for one, seems to think that combat doesn't make the game but social interaction does.
And he's got my attention, that's for sure.
And here's me thinking they were having a laugh with these anti-gameaddiction messages during the loading screens of some MMO's. Take a break and go out with your real friends!
I think it's naturally splitting to accommodate it's playerbase. In one direction you'll have simpler games that are quick fun and one can jump in and out of. In another you will have throwbacks where a game is deep with a strong in game community. Lastly you will still have a few titles that are a refined version of what we mostly have now.
In this respect I think the options will be better. While the options will not make every single MMO gamer happy, nothing can do that, there will certainly be something for almost everyone.
Originally posted by almalexius Ow come on that is complete rubbish. You are not in there to communicate are you? I'm in there to play a game so the comparison with some of those communities makes no sense at all.
Maybe you are not, but believe it or not, a lot of people are in there to communicate. I'd even say without these people the MMORPG as a genre would not take root in the first place, as multiplayer games like Quake would suffice.
....
And here's me thinking they were having a laugh with these anti-gameaddiction messages during the loading screens of some MMO's. Take a break and go out with your real friends!
Well, now isn't that a pretty clueless thing to say. Stereotyping is just assuming you're pretty knowledgeable about people and cultures, whereas in my opinion it usually stems from lack of enough knowledge or experience.
First, where I live, I've never even seen one of these fabled "basement dwelling MMO addicts", let alone be one of them (well, maybe because we just have condos here, so no basements, haha).
Second, playing MMOs with friends doesn't impact your real life activity if you don't let it. To us it was just an excuse to do something together online and yet another conversation topic when we got to meet out. And we still played the game for the social side of it - without the interaction, it was meaningless to us.
While MMO do well and sell well, they are not really MMO anymore, they're all small scale dungeon instancers (LoL, Vindictus), solo quest grinders (WoW SWOTOR), , or glorified action Hack & Slash multiplayer games (Tera, GW2).
So this is a MMO definition thread? Again?
Guess MMOs are no longer MMOs for you ... so are you moving on and do something else?
Personally i think they are fun games. And like you said, they are selling well .. so obviously not "dying" in any sense of the word.
May be you should use the word "change" instead of "die".
There are a lot of reasons MMORPG's are dying. But let us break it down a bit more. They aren't all dying, and there are a few out there that actually have real old style communities. The crappy MMORPGs are dying the quickest. This is a great thing! The head of SWTOR remains on a spike as a warning to all future developers that they won't get anywhere without some real innovation in the MMORPG world.
I hate the vast majority of MMORPGs and the main reason for this is that they are way too easy. There is no real challenge, and no real penalty for failure. Progression is 100% based on how much time a person puts in. 95% of MMORPG PVE content can be soloed with ease. No one will ever tell nostalgic stories about killing 10 wolves.
In MMORPGs with challenging content and real scary death penalties then people will tell terrifying stories. The story may be just that they almost got killed by some mob somewhere but add in a nasty death penalty and suddenly almost getting killed is quite scary and emotional. When there is true danger in mmorpgs then players will need to work together. This creates community. Community is pointless when everything is soloable.
Want to see an awesome community in an mmorpg? Just add harsh death penalties and make it difficult to run solo.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now! I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
Thats why there are more then 200 MMO's in development in any given year.
Yup MMO's are dying!!!!! On the otherhand, maybe there arent games you want to play but to say they are dying is hyperbole at best.
If you call a sheep a sheep then it is a sheep. If you call a bear a sheep then it is now a sheep also but, was it the original sheep, nope it became what we call it not because it was it.
MMOs have simply changed into something that wasnt intented. They now apeal to the majority of people and the majority of people are not educated or experienced in what a MMO was to be but are educated in what it became. Some call these MMOs today crap because they are by their standards simple and un-interesting. They are simple because if you can figure out the mechanics you can beat the content. Older MMOs had ever evolving mechanics and required strategic pvp strategy. Today pvp is really a joke compare to then where you had risk (lose everything on your person) reward (get everything off the person you kill or even their player build house), today we have risk (you die and lose nothing) reward (you get a token for winning to buy premade gear).
Also to add to the whole gear thing in older MMOs you had to use trade craft to get items you want, those that are not familiar with trade craft people google it, I can type up a whole write up on it by it self. You can make sought after items through time that were rare because of the materials needed and percentage chance to fail. Today you just need to kill the predicable content to get the really nice items to stand a round and be looked at then log off from boredom.
So IMO what the OP is talking about is MMOs are not the MMOs we ( original ) MMORPGers are used to and would like a game with todays graphics to play, it would seem TESO is going to be pretty close.
There are more mmo's being developed now than ever before, if mmo's were dying then big companies wouldn't be investing in the genre. We are still in mmorpg genre's infancy.
I dont think MMOs are dying I think the market is over saturated. It used to be the MMO players were all in a handful of MMOs. Now there are a bazillion MMOs out there so the MMO masses are much more spread out.
- The LFG/LFR grouping options: this has removed the need to get to know people in the game. Click the button - wait - join - finish - loot - leave.
However, there are both plusses and minuses to this.
It is only plus for me. It is a matter of preference. I don't play games to know people. I know enough people.
So, is it a bad thing?
Again, a matter of perspsective. Not a bad thing for me.
As usual, the market will decide. We post on here with personal experiences, however the games companies have depts of people analysing game trends and behaviours. If they see a more solo oriented mmo as the model likely to succeed - then that is the way it will be.
Already decided. Look at the successes. WoW, LOL, WOT, D3, GW2. Even TOR is making a comeback now it is F2P.
They are dying as far as hoping they become more advanced with more depth,but never give up hope.
Eventually like in the real world,a flooded market will kill off a lot of foolish investors and the sub par developers.
I am afraid that developers see a small market,so there si no incentive to risk a big project.We will never see the 20 or so million new DSL gamers that arrived just in time for Wow to flourish.The numbers actualluy appear to be about the same 6 ,million Wow has lost and they are divided amongst all the new games that come out.
What will happen is these develoeprs are going to go cheaper and cheaper until eventually there is a large gap for a few to go back and create something big.
I think of it as a small car market.If everyone starts making small cars,a couple manufacturers can go back to big size cars and flourish.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Thats why there are more then 200 MMO's in development in any given year.
Yup MMO's are dying!!!!! On the otherhand, maybe there arent games you want to play but to say they are dying is hyperbole at best.
They can make 2000 MMOs, the number doesn't matter when the themepark garbage mass produced is the equivilant of hip hop in the music industry that targets kids. Its "cool" for the week that it's on the radio, then never heard again. Unlike sandboxes which are the 80s songs that are still played everyday. Why? Because they are simply better, made sense, and can be related with.
The opinion that most modern MMOs do not foster the sense of community that made some earlier titles so exciting is a commonly held one, and it's fair. The emphasis on the single player experience within MMOs and stagnant (or inconsequential) end-game has indeed lessened the likelihood of generating new communities in-game, though outside communities can certainly graft themselves into them (i.e. guilds). This trend is a direct result of the tradtionally high production costs of MMOs, requiring most titles to follow a play-it-safe approach, and a history of learning the wrong lessons from predecessors.
We are hardly nearing the end of the MMO. In fact, in the scheme of history we are looking at only the very beginning. But the genre is certainly evolving, and I do believe we are at a bit of a crossroads, only now taking stock of the post-WoW fallout. WoW pulled the amazing trick of grabbing existing MMO fans with a well-executed evolution of the genre that also proved palatable to a large audience of new players who found the game more accessible (and better marketed) than previous titles, but make no mistake, its features were not designed to foster community building and many of them had the opposite effect (instancing, soloability). Other developers thought they could tap into the WoW fanbase by picking up many of the games features in "clone" titles. Some years later, after several big-budget disappointments, they're realizing that their strategy was all wrong. In a game like WoW, players invest a lot of time in leveling and gearing up a character. There's little incentive to start over in a new game that provides a pretty similar experience, even if it looks marginally better. Moreover, many of the genre's purported "evolutions" actually put it in more direct competition with single-player games rather than taking advantage of the very "massive" aspect that defines the genre. What some developers are now starting to realize is that you're not likely to beat WoW at their own game because you're not fighting for an as-of-yet-untapped pool of new users, you're fighting largely for existing users who don't have much incentive to switch. That's right, WoW got pretty much everyone who's really interested in that kind of game via word-of-mouth or marketing. There's no untapped market to speak of for WoW clones, so if you want users for that kind of game, you need to wrest them from WoW's icy grip.
Developers are much more likely to poach WoW's userbase by offering something substantially different, or more likely chip away at it. This would be best accomplished with niche style games who business model isn't predicated on massive numbers. Technological advances now allows MMOs to be produced and maintained more cheaply than in years past. Also, sandbox-style features have proven a cost-effective fountain of youth of gameplay, requiring far less developer hours and renewable gameplay compared to the content grind of expansions that can never outpace user demand. These games might find new users as they could offer experiences that are desirable to players that were not interested in a WoW-style game, despite the marketing. Once smaller games have tested some largely untried ideas, expect the next huge MMO to distill some of those experiences into a big budget title the way WoW did, but I don't think you'll see that big title for at least 5 years.
EVE is an mmo where community is rife, Being in one of the bigger alliances I have made some really solid friends who have gone beyond game to real life.
Comments
I don't see interaction for interaction's sake (social) as a primary aspect of MMORPGs, even the old ones. I don't see them in the same way I see Facebook.
On the other side, I do think interaction as part of the gaming process is dying out. Developers have gradually removed aspects of game mechanics that force or encourage interaction.
Then again, given the quality of the game communities... Can you blame them?
Maybe you are not, but believe it or not, a lot of people are in there to communicate. I'd even say without these people the MMORPG as a genre would not take root in the first place, as multiplayer games like Quake would suffice.
I remember the first few years I got to play MMOs. The common joke I kept hearing was that people weren't playing for the gameplay, they were playing despite the gameplay.
Even in WOW, the MMO that - for many - brought polished combat to the MMO scene, I remember a lot of people getting bored of the game itself and just sticking around for the community.
I just watched Garrett Fuller's interview with EverQuest Next lead Dave Georgeson, and to me, he seems to be pushing to break out of the combat bind MMOs have stuck themselves into. And he, for one, seems to think that combat doesn't make the game but social interaction does.
And he's got my attention, that's for sure.
While there is truth to your post, take a game like WoW for example; there is a large enough playerbase in it where it houses a sizable subset of players who login strictly for social interaction. I think there are a few that have just that, you might just have to dig deeper to find it.
I tell ya, there's nothing like a nice solid Crosley Kettle. I miss those days.
MMOs are dying in the same way that the telephone has.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
its not that mmos are dying, its just that they suck now. either devs or the suits are chasing the wow dream and making crappy games. noone is gonna outWoW WoW. just aint gonna happen. as soon as all these idiot devs and companies wake up and start making good games again the mmo genre will be just fine.
of course mmos as you describe are all the old ones. if you want that interaction it is there, you just have to play a 10 year plus game. anything from 2004 on your not going to find a meaningful game, just a bunch of add people on their current themepark ride.
And here's me thinking they were having a laugh with these anti-gameaddiction messages during the loading screens of some MMO's. Take a break and go out with your real friends!
WOW,eq2,Vanguard,WAR,LOTRO,AOC,Rift Aion, SWTOR, TERA.
Currently playing GW2.
In this respect I think the options will be better. While the options will not make every single MMO gamer happy, nothing can do that, there will certainly be something for almost everyone.
Well, now isn't that a pretty clueless thing to say. Stereotyping is just assuming you're pretty knowledgeable about people and cultures, whereas in my opinion it usually stems from lack of enough knowledge or experience.
First, where I live, I've never even seen one of these fabled "basement dwelling MMO addicts", let alone be one of them (well, maybe because we just have condos here, so no basements, haha).
Second, playing MMOs with friends doesn't impact your real life activity if you don't let it. To us it was just an excuse to do something together online and yet another conversation topic when we got to meet out.
And we still played the game for the social side of it - without the interaction, it was meaningless to us.
So we'd meet out, and we'd meet online.
Yeah, I know - impossibiru!! :P
So this is a MMO definition thread? Again?
Guess MMOs are no longer MMOs for you ... so are you moving on and do something else?
Personally i think they are fun games. And like you said, they are selling well .. so obviously not "dying" in any sense of the word.
May be you should use the word "change" instead of "die".
OP is wrong, OP's premise is wrong and using statements like "true X" or "real Y" never does any good for the discussion.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
yeh .. there is no "true" MMO. It is just a label.
WOW is a good game for many. I get it that the OP does not like it .. but so ... games cannot please everyone.
There are a lot of reasons MMORPG's are dying. But let us break it down a bit more. They aren't all dying, and there are a few out there that actually have real old style communities. The crappy MMORPGs are dying the quickest. This is a great thing! The head of SWTOR remains on a spike as a warning to all future developers that they won't get anywhere without some real innovation in the MMORPG world.
I hate the vast majority of MMORPGs and the main reason for this is that they are way too easy. There is no real challenge, and no real penalty for failure. Progression is 100% based on how much time a person puts in. 95% of MMORPG PVE content can be soloed with ease. No one will ever tell nostalgic stories about killing 10 wolves.
In MMORPGs with challenging content and real scary death penalties then people will tell terrifying stories. The story may be just that they almost got killed by some mob somewhere but add in a nasty death penalty and suddenly almost getting killed is quite scary and emotional. When there is true danger in mmorpgs then players will need to work together. This creates community. Community is pointless when everything is soloable.
Want to see an awesome community in an mmorpg? Just add harsh death penalties and make it difficult to run solo.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
If you call a sheep a sheep then it is a sheep. If you call a bear a sheep then it is now a sheep also but, was it the original sheep, nope it became what we call it not because it was it.
MMOs have simply changed into something that wasnt intented. They now apeal to the majority of people and the majority of people are not educated or experienced in what a MMO was to be but are educated in what it became. Some call these MMOs today crap because they are by their standards simple and un-interesting. They are simple because if you can figure out the mechanics you can beat the content. Older MMOs had ever evolving mechanics and required strategic pvp strategy. Today pvp is really a joke compare to then where you had risk (lose everything on your person) reward (get everything off the person you kill or even their player build house), today we have risk (you die and lose nothing) reward (you get a token for winning to buy premade gear).
Also to add to the whole gear thing in older MMOs you had to use trade craft to get items you want, those that are not familiar with trade craft people google it, I can type up a whole write up on it by it self. You can make sought after items through time that were rare because of the materials needed and percentage chance to fail. Today you just need to kill the predicable content to get the really nice items to stand a round and be looked at then log off from boredom.
So IMO what the OP is talking about is MMOs are not the MMOs we ( original ) MMORPGers are used to and would like a game with todays graphics to play, it would seem TESO is going to be pretty close.
I dont think MMOs are dying I think the market is over saturated. It used to be the MMO players were all in a handful of MMOs. Now there are a bazillion MMOs out there so the MMO masses are much more spread out.
They are dying as far as hoping they become more advanced with more depth,but never give up hope.
Eventually like in the real world,a flooded market will kill off a lot of foolish investors and the sub par developers.
I am afraid that developers see a small market,so there si no incentive to risk a big project.We will never see the 20 or so million new DSL gamers that arrived just in time for Wow to flourish.The numbers actualluy appear to be about the same 6 ,million Wow has lost and they are divided amongst all the new games that come out.
What will happen is these develoeprs are going to go cheaper and cheaper until eventually there is a large gap for a few to go back and create something big.
I think of it as a small car market.If everyone starts making small cars,a couple manufacturers can go back to big size cars and flourish.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
yeah .. and change to be better games.
No longer shackled by a single game world .. with instances .. and cross realm functions .. and many other ways to play.
No longer shackled by an in-game community .. with a bigger community across server, even across games.
No longer shackled by huge time investments, and like a job .. with LFD, LFR and bite-size activites.
Think about it some more then, because your conclusion is flat out wrong.
MMO's are bigger than they've ever been. Just because they aren't designed specifically to your liking, doesn't mean they aren't alive and well.
They can make 2000 MMOs, the number doesn't matter when the themepark garbage mass produced is the equivilant of hip hop in the music industry that targets kids. Its "cool" for the week that it's on the radio, then never heard again. Unlike sandboxes which are the 80s songs that are still played everyday. Why? Because they are simply better, made sense, and can be related with.
The opinion that most modern MMOs do not foster the sense of community that made some earlier titles so exciting is a commonly held one, and it's fair. The emphasis on the single player experience within MMOs and stagnant (or inconsequential) end-game has indeed lessened the likelihood of generating new communities in-game, though outside communities can certainly graft themselves into them (i.e. guilds). This trend is a direct result of the tradtionally high production costs of MMOs, requiring most titles to follow a play-it-safe approach, and a history of learning the wrong lessons from predecessors.
We are hardly nearing the end of the MMO. In fact, in the scheme of history we are looking at only the very beginning. But the genre is certainly evolving, and I do believe we are at a bit of a crossroads, only now taking stock of the post-WoW fallout. WoW pulled the amazing trick of grabbing existing MMO fans with a well-executed evolution of the genre that also proved palatable to a large audience of new players who found the game more accessible (and better marketed) than previous titles, but make no mistake, its features were not designed to foster community building and many of them had the opposite effect (instancing, soloability). Other developers thought they could tap into the WoW fanbase by picking up many of the games features in "clone" titles. Some years later, after several big-budget disappointments, they're realizing that their strategy was all wrong. In a game like WoW, players invest a lot of time in leveling and gearing up a character. There's little incentive to start over in a new game that provides a pretty similar experience, even if it looks marginally better. Moreover, many of the genre's purported "evolutions" actually put it in more direct competition with single-player games rather than taking advantage of the very "massive" aspect that defines the genre. What some developers are now starting to realize is that you're not likely to beat WoW at their own game because you're not fighting for an as-of-yet-untapped pool of new users, you're fighting largely for existing users who don't have much incentive to switch. That's right, WoW got pretty much everyone who's really interested in that kind of game via word-of-mouth or marketing. There's no untapped market to speak of for WoW clones, so if you want users for that kind of game, you need to wrest them from WoW's icy grip.
Developers are much more likely to poach WoW's userbase by offering something substantially different, or more likely chip away at it. This would be best accomplished with niche style games who business model isn't predicated on massive numbers. Technological advances now allows MMOs to be produced and maintained more cheaply than in years past. Also, sandbox-style features have proven a cost-effective fountain of youth of gameplay, requiring far less developer hours and renewable gameplay compared to the content grind of expansions that can never outpace user demand. These games might find new users as they could offer experiences that are desirable to players that were not interested in a WoW-style game, despite the marketing. Once smaller games have tested some largely untried ideas, expect the next huge MMO to distill some of those experiences into a big budget title the way WoW did, but I don't think you'll see that big title for at least 5 years.