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I thought this was going to be a great game but......

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  • cronius77cronius77 Fairfax, VAPosts: 1,347Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by morbidlymystic
    Originally posted by cronius77

    raids are a silppery slope anyways and I personally do not want to see them in this game other than maybe a warhammer online style of random chest events or something, but better rewards than GW2 because GW2 lacks any real reason to do dungeons or harder stuff other than skins.

    But with that being said look at shit games for pvp like wow and rift , when you add in raids to a game you have to constantly spend tons of time and resources making content for like 10% of the population and gear. If you want balanced pvp , you do not leave the game gear based like old DAOC was before TOA etc. If you have constant raiding going on for powerful gear , you create a gear game for a game that is based around end game pvp for factions. Now you have to counter balance that gear gap treadmill with pvp only stats so raiders cant walk right into pvp and 1 shot or 2 shot people. Its nothing but a mess and only satisfies a small amount of the actual community to begin with. Lets face it who the hell is going to raid day in and day out like in wow or rift for armor skins or weapon skins? People do it to be powerful ...  Adventure zones sound much more fun to me and I would gladly keep raiding out of a game if DAOC style pvp is end game. Just for the love of god add some more gear than GW2 to all the events in game because that crap is pointless in GW2.

    First off, a slippery slope is a logical fallacy.

    Second, we all know you are talking about WoW.

    Third, if its a slippery slope to anything, then its to success.

     

    How is WoW PvP shit again? 

    PvP Isn't gear based?  What are you smoking?

    Most of the best PvP gear in WOW is PVP gear, not PvE gear.  So this fantasy you have that raiding is directly linked to pvp success is just wrong.

    Most people in Raid enjoy some form of raiding nowadays. 

    if you think that wow's pvp is good and fair you are the one smoking shit . Second if you look at games out there that have tried to balance their pvp like rift by removing pvp stats on pvp gear you will see it doesnt work because it gives all raiders with supurb gear a HUGE advantage. So who is smoking what ? Go ahead and add tiers of raiding to TESO and see what happens when a gear gap is created between pvp players who could give two shits about raiding ever and players who min/max and want to raid all the time. You put them in pvp with even a 10% power gap over normal pvp players and see what transpires. WOW is a pve game btw if you think that wow has EVER been known as a pvp game you are sadly mistaken as their pvp has been a tranwreck since burning crusade.

  • rygard49rygard49 Huntington Beach, CAPosts: 975Member
    Damned if you do and damned if you don't in our little MMO community, here.
  • wormedwormed Calgary, ABPosts: 374Member Uncommon
    If WoW is considered great PvP, I should just give up on MMORPG's.
  • HellidolHellidol TACOMA, WAPosts: 405Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by wormed
    If WoW is considered great PvP, I should just give up on MMORPG's.

    LOL, agreeeeeeeeeeeed. wow pvp is a joke compare to EVE, UO, Shadowbane, Daoc ect.....

    image
  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,119Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kidas52
    With the realization of no raiding, only 4 man dungeons, and " high end" world content in the form of what guild wars 2 is doing.  I guess I will just have to wait for Everquest next.

    EQN is going to be primarily a sandbox, so don't get your hopes up for a raid focused end game.

    image
  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,119Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Eir_S
    Originally posted by JasonJ

    Good, dont recall ever going on a raid in a TES game. How many more things can they change before the game is nothing but TES in name only? oh wait...

    Yeah, it makes sense with TES to not have raids, which is why I'm confused why some people would "skip" it after "thinking" it was going to be something it's not.  But even then, the portion of people who love raiding is probably much smaller than the people who want progression, and there's a difference.. the two don't have to go together, and as far as I know TESO's devs never stated that there will be no form of progression.  I still think a lot of people will be happy with the end result.  Just not OP, obviously.

    They have in fact stated in a recent interview that there will be multiple paths of progression.  Soloers, groupers, crafters and PvPers would all have access to end game loot progression.  Something tells me that even if they did add or eventually added raids, these guys still wouldn't be happy, since they would have to share the uber lootz.

    image
  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,119Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Originally posted by JimmyYO
    I never picture'd TESO with raiding and if they add an obscene amount of endgame dungeons for 4 man's that substantually ramp up in difficulty then I see no need for raiding at all. The problem is no new MMO's have even a decent amount of endgame content in mind so i won't hold my breath.

    They can abuse their 4 man content and recreate 8 man 16 man and 32 man content from most of them.. Only adding new mobs and slightly twist the stories behind the content...

     

    If you played with neverwinters dungeon creator once you know that this cant be that hard. To repopulate an excisting dungeon. And so it really cant be that hard to turn those excisting dungeons intoo raid dungeons...... All they need to do is make new loot tables.

    Why bother when it would be easier to just create hardcore mode 4 mans and multi-group style dynamic events ala rift / gw2.  Easier to program and it appeals to a much larger audience.

    image
  • kidas52kidas52 Louisville, KYPosts: 26Member

    I see so many people saying MMO content doesn't fit the IP of TES.   EXCUSE ME,  but what is the point of making an MMOrpg, if you arent going to build on the abilitiy to coordinate with groups of other people.  Why make it an MMO at all,  make a Skyrim II...

     

    The lead designer SPECIFICALLY said there will be no raids.  When you say no raids and then add a caveat of high-end adventure zones, that imidiately sends me to what GW 2 is doing.

     

    Also how does raiding not fit with TES IP?  With the huge amount of monster lore,  dragons, dedra when I first heard about TESO i was so happy I would finally find a new game to get that Epic feeling of slaying those large bosses.  But before the first beta even starts like all other promising games I see they dash my hopes trying to be "different" from WoW.

    Jona ^_^

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member
    Originally posted by DAS1337
    Originally posted by Eir_S
    Originally posted by kidas52
    With the realization of no raiding, only 4 man dungeons, and " high end" world content in the form of what guild wars 2 is doing.  I guess I will just have to wait for Everquest next.

    Well that's up to you I guess.  I'm looking to give it a try myself, and some videos don't look TOO bad, but at the same time, if it's a subscription game, I'll probably only level and drop it anyway.

    Hm, $15 for a good game is never a bad thing in my opinion.  I guess I can spare it though.  I mean, it's 50 cents a day.  If I can't afford that, I should probably look into selling my computer to pay bills..

    The amount has never been my problem, I've explained why I hesitate to pay a sub enough times on this forum.

  • kidas52kidas52 Louisville, KYPosts: 26Member
    Originally posted by DAS1337
    Originally posted by jackashflash2000
    Adventure zones are supposed to be sort of like raiding.  If Zen has a brain in their head they will make sure it is, thats all I can say.  They will be shitting the bed otherwise as everyone jumps ship, and this turns into just another free ro play pile of shit.

    Why is it that everyone believes that without raiding, a game can't be successful?  Or the notion that the majority of gamers love raiding?  You do realize that most gamers don't enjoy locking themselves into raids, right?  Ultima Online didn't have raids.  Neither did DAOC, until TOA, and many blame TOA for killing the game.  EQ didn't have raids in a traditional sense.  All pretty popular games for their time.  I'm sure there are plenty of other games as wel that have been successful without the modern 'raid'.

     

     

    Did you ever play everquest past level 30???  Back when I was 14 I was raiding Dragons for my paladin epic,  it was hard,  time consuming and so worth it once I achieved the goal.  I never said INSTANCES,  i said RAIDING.  You can have all the raiding content open world,  as long as it isnt horribly dull and easy like Rift and GW2.

    Jona ^_^

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member
    Originally posted by cura

    Obviously Eir_S doesnt hink its a good game so what is a purpose of your comment? And yes you havent discovered america here.

    Huh?  I haven't even played it.  I'm not about to judge a game until I do.  My opinions can, and have often, turned around completely.  I just think it looks very similar to other MMOs, that doesn't mean I won't enjoy it.

    As I've explained, the reason I hate subs is that I shouldn't be stuck with a useless piece of plastic if I stop shelling out money, or in the case of online purchases, a code I can't use.  When I buy a game, that should be enough.  It's not about how good it is.  I've played single player games that are better than any MMO, but those games are mine, they're not being rented to me.  If people disagree, that's their choice, but I'm not about to change my mind about this.  Like I've said, this doesn't mean I won't play a sub game in the future, but it will never be as long as I played WoW because I feel subs are just a scam for the most part.  Sue me.

  • kidas52kidas52 Louisville, KYPosts: 26Member
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by kidas52
    With the realization of no raiding, only 4 man dungeons, and " high end" world content in the form of what guild wars 2 is doing.  I guess I will just have to wait for Everquest next.

    EQN is going to be primarily a sandbox, so don't get your hopes up for a raid focused end game.

    When did I say raid only focused game?  I just want their to be something to do with more than 4 people that doeasnt take 5 mins while im eating a taco and talking on the phone because it is so laughably easy.

    Jona ^_^

  • Yyrkoon_PoMYyrkoon_PoM Reseda, CAPosts: 150Member
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by kidas52
    With the realization of no raiding, only 4 man dungeons, and " high end" world content in the form of what guild wars 2 is doing.  I guess I will just have to wait for Everquest next.

    EQN is going to be primarily a sandbox, so don't get your hopes up for a raid focused end game.

    Did a new rule get passed that sandbox means that there will be no raiding, or less raiding?

    EQN is still an EQ game and raiding is a very big part of EQ. Raiding in EQ is the epitome of the group enforced content and was a natural progression from the single group content. Remember all EQ raids were open world raids and not in an instance. Only Fear and Hate were level locked when they were made available a few months after release. So I highly doubt EQN will not have raids as a big part of its game.

  • kidas52kidas52 Louisville, KYPosts: 26Member
    Originally posted by Yyrkoon_PoM
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by kidas52
    With the realization of no raiding, only 4 man dungeons, and " high end" world content in the form of what guild wars 2 is doing.  I guess I will just have to wait for Everquest next.

    EQN is going to be primarily a sandbox, so don't get your hopes up for a raid focused end game.

    Did a new rule get passed that sandbox means that there will be no raiding, or less raiding?

    EQN is still an EQ game and raiding is a very big part of EQ. Raiding in EQ is the epitome of the group enforced content and was a natural progression from the single group content. Remember all EQ raids were open world raids and not in an instance. Only Fear and Hate were level locked when they were made available a few months after release. So I highly doubt EQN will not have raids as a big part of its game.

    Of course there will be but its much further off then TESO and I havent played an MMORPG in years because every single one is all about PVP or pleasing people that only level to 20.

    Jona ^_^

  • MibletMiblet BognerPosts: 333Member

    Until GoD when instancing began in earnest in EQ.  EQ raiding is now largely, if not all, instanced.

     

    Have to admit though I did like GoD raiding (the twist in Inktu'ta was a nice touch and Uqua was a touch unforgiving), even though most hated it.

  • PanzerbasePanzerbase Chicago, ILPosts: 423Member
    I don't like the feel of it, they're betting too much on the name, you still need to have the complete package to compete out there. Let's face facts, the FTP FOTM club isn't going to cut it in terms of revenue and right now that's about all they have. Sad to see this game die an early death, give it a fighting chance for fucks sake. 
  • nate1980nate1980 Evans, GAPosts: 1,829Member
    Imho ava is better endgame content than raiding. The best gear will be crater made, which is good. Sounds like they're matching daoc endgame and gear acquisition with es gameplay.
  • SentnlSentnl SydneyPosts: 73Member

    Sollution!

     

    All these ES nutjob fans who think an mmo can survive if it's an ES4, you're wrong. MMO's need end game content that can't be conquered within the first 3-6 months, which buys the devs time to create new content in that time.

    If the time it takes people to clear the endgame is faster than the time it takes devs to introduce new content. You have a game that will innevitably lose its taste.

    But! All is not lost my little kittens.

    You don't necessarily need raids, you just need epic crazy hard bosses, that everyone pubs and guilds alike are fighting to kill - even better in a contested pvp area.

    This was the BEST part of wow in my opinion. Think Kazzak/Azuregos - amazing times had by all on pvp servers, the thrill, the adrenaline... Do you engage the boss first? or do you wait.. It's going to take awhile to kill, is it safe? scouts... Roleplay the face off of it if you have to.

    Super hard world bosses can be end game content. If they're done right.

    I sometimes play under the alias "Exposed". Don't tell anybody.

  • CelusiosCelusios Denver, COPosts: 340Member Uncommon
    "Me and my buddies can't attack a oversized mob that does immense damage for 8 hours, this game is doomed!" - OP.
  • OlgarkOlgark BostonPosts: 319Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kidas52
    With the realization of no raiding, only 4 man dungeons, and " high end" world content in the form of what guild wars 2 is doing.  I guess I will just have to wait for Everquest next.


    image  Do you even read the dev blogs or watch the vids?

    Adventure Zones are the raids up to 16 man teams can complete them. High end content you can explore other faction territory once you hit level 50. RvR will be a huge draw for the PvP'ers which is what this game is being designed around.

    Some dungeons will require 4 to 10 people to complete as well especially when you hit level 50 and also level 50 is not the end as you can open up all the skills and use them in any build you wish.

    image

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by Olgark
    Originally posted by kidas52
    With the realization of no raiding, only 4 man dungeons, and " high end" world content in the form of what guild wars 2 is doing.  I guess I will just have to wait for Everquest next.


    image  Do you even read the dev blogs or watch the vids?

    Adventure Zones are the raids up to 16 man teams can complete them. High end content you can explore other faction territory once you hit level 50. RvR will be a huge draw for the PvP'ers which is what this game is being designed around.

    Some dungeons will require 4 to 10 people to complete as well especially when you hit level 50 and also level 50 is not the end as you can open up all the skills and use them in any build you wish.

    Pure numbers does not a raid make. Based on what has been said they will be similar to the zone events in Rift and Gw2. Those are not raids. Those miss the point entirely. Right now outside of the combat system and ip, there is nothing setting apart from Rift/Gw2/Tsw. And I am not sold on the actual combat. Their are inherent problems with how they have chosen to spread out abilities but even that I am sceptical on. Even for the average gamer you are looking at 4-5 months before the game is "complete", which means for the hardcore players it will be a month and done. Right now based on the systems alone I am for more interested in Wildstar, buiilt in interdependancy means there is many more options in terms of longevity.

  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,119Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kidas52
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by kidas52
    With the realization of no raiding, only 4 man dungeons, and " high end" world content in the form of what guild wars 2 is doing.  I guess I will just have to wait for Everquest next.

    EQN is going to be primarily a sandbox, so don't get your hopes up for a raid focused end game.

    When did I say raid only focused game?  I just want their to be something to do with more than 4 people that doeasnt take 5 mins while im eating a taco and talking on the phone because it is so laughably easy.

    What game that offers raiding hasn't made it the focus for end game?  That is why we are reluctant to even let it happen at all.

    image
  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,119Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Yyrkoon_PoM
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by kidas52
    With the realization of no raiding, only 4 man dungeons, and " high end" world content in the form of what guild wars 2 is doing.  I guess I will just have to wait for Everquest next.

    EQN is going to be primarily a sandbox, so don't get your hopes up for a raid focused end game.

    Did a new rule get passed that sandbox means that there will be no raiding, or less raiding?

    EQN is still an EQ game and raiding is a very big part of EQ. Raiding in EQ is the epitome of the group enforced content and was a natural progression from the single group content. Remember all EQ raids were open world raids and not in an instance. Only Fear and Hate were level locked when they were made available a few months after release. So I highly doubt EQN will not have raids as a big part of its game.

    Well, SWG was SOE's idea of a sandbox game and it didn't have raiding.  Hence my comment to not get your hopes up.  Didn't say it would not happen, only that it isn't likely to.

    image
  • ThumbtackJThumbtackJ columbus, OHPosts: 539Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Eir_S
    Originally posted by cura

    Obviously Eir_S doesnt hink its a good game so what is a purpose of your comment? And yes you havent discovered america here.

    Huh?  I haven't even played it.  I'm not about to judge a game until I do.  My opinions can, and have often, turned around completely.  I just think it looks very similar to other MMOs, that doesn't mean I won't enjoy it.

    As I've explained, the reason I hate subs is that I shouldn't be stuck with a useless piece of plastic if I stop shelling out money, or in the case of online purchases, a code I can't use.  When I buy a game, that should be enough.  It's not about how good it is.  I've played single player games that are better than any MMO, but those games are mine, they're not being rented to me.  If people disagree, that's their choice, but I'm not about to change my mind about this.  Like I've said, this doesn't mean I won't play a sub game in the future, but it will never be as long as I played WoW because I feel subs are just a scam for the most part.  Sue me.

    +1

    I agree in the fullest. Well said!

    Marry me. XD

  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,119Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sentnl

    Sollution!

     

    All these ES nutjob fans who think an mmo can survive if it's an ES4, you're wrong. MMO's need end game content that can't be conquered within the first 3-6 months, which buys the devs time to create new content in that time.

    If the time it takes people to clear the endgame is faster than the time it takes devs to introduce new content. You have a game that will innevitably lose its taste.

    But! All is not lost my little kittens.

    You don't necessarily need raids, you just need epic crazy hard bosses, that everyone pubs and guilds alike are fighting to kill - even better in a contested pvp area.

    This was the BEST part of wow in my opinion. Think Kazzak/Azuregos - amazing times had by all on pvp servers, the thrill, the adrenaline... Do you engage the boss first? or do you wait.. It's going to take awhile to kill, is it safe? scouts... Roleplay the face off of it if you have to.

    Super hard world bosses can be end game content. If they're done right.

    Somethings tells me there are a lot of ES fans out there.  More than enough to keep the game going and profitable without needing people like you.  I love how you guys think games can't survive without your patronage.  You forget that most of those types of gamers do not make it to end game in 3 to 6 months, let alone eat through end game content in that time either.  You guys love making strawman arguments based on your own proclivities and not based on the target audience.

    image
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