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What do YOU think when reading player created content?

2

Comments

  • evictonevicton Warren, PAPosts: 398Member
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    I think, "I wonder how they're going to balance the loot."

     Exploits will happen if  you give players a chance. You could put a regulator on it to limit gains per minute and extremes.  Make it worse than the game world content.  Or make them earn tokens in the game world content then spend them to run a given PCC.

    The problem is that, no matter what restrictions on loot you create, players will find creative ways to give maximum loot for minimum difficulty subject to your restrictions.  Content tuned for that rather than tuned to provide an interesting challenge will tend to be boring content.  Content designed primarily with being interesting in mind will give inferior loot.

    One option is to make it so that players have no control whatsoever over either the difficulty or the loot.  But that limits what content you can let players create.  Most people wouldn't get too excited about getting to write quest text.

    Another option is to take player-created content and then manually adjust the difficulty and loot yourself.  But that creates a lot of work for game developers, and will probably also create a lot of unhappy content designers who are upset that you nerfed the content that they put so much work into.

    There's also the option of automatically tweaking rewards up or down based on how commonly done the content is.  People who create the content would only be allowed to set relative rewards, and then content that isn't done very much would see the rewards go up automatically, while content that is heavily farmed would see rewards go down automatically, until it's all brought into balance.  That's tricky to set up, though, and you have to be very careful not to create an enormously exploitable system.  You'll probably also have to filter content for interestingness, so that you don't end up with the good content always giving inferior rewards because it's what people who look for good content rather than good loot tend to play a lot.

    I personally like the way cryptic has handled foundry missions in STO. First off gear rewards simply aren't an issue because the gear you get in the foundry missions (like most sto gear drops from missions) is inferior to gear you can get via the end game reputation grinds. However most foundry missions give dillithum (which is used for end game gear and exchangeable for cash shop money). There are also spotlight missions, your first spotlight mission gives a bonus amount of dilithum each day, its a pretty good bonus and its equivelant to completing to 2 pvp play 3 match type mission. Your basic 20 minute foundry mission nets you about 756 dilithum while a 15-25 minute fleet action gives you 480 dilithum, However the fleet action depending on which one your doing will also net you better gear, some have daily quests, and others earn you reputation marks (used for unlocking gear upgrades with reputation or increasing your reputation with there factions.

    Right now I feel like foundry missions in sto have finally struck a nice balance between having a reward that builds towards end game goals while not being the 'path of least resistance' to those goals. There are also a viable method of leveling an alt. And I've played foundry missions in STO that i've enjoyed quite a bit.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,681Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by Mystais
    I think that this is the new way of getting around the 'content locust' issue.  Let the players chase after them, not the developers.    image

     Free labor!!! Or worse, customers paying to do the devs job!

    Do you feel the same way about tabletop RPGs and live-action roleplaying?

     Apples and Chairs.  Not the same.

    It is the same. You're focusing on things like the COH MA and quest makers but not on any other tools for user generated content. In ADnD, the DM isn't provided. The players have to fill that role. In LARPing, only the splatbooks are provided, and the players do the storytelling. The same is true of sandbox mechanics in MMOs. The players are given tools to create, because for those players creation is the content they are looking for.

    Guild vs Guild PVP is an example of such a scenario. One could probably say the players are paying the devs to do the dev's job of creating the politics, drama and territorial lines. If the game was faction vs faction, the reason for the war, the story to the war and the control points would be defined by the devs. However, there are players that want that level of control, so handing over the reins and providing a framework and mechanics to support player politics and war declaration isn't a matter of the devs not doing their jobs but a matter of the devs satisfactorily doing their jobs for the gamers that want type of gameplay.

    Puzzle Pirates could have made tournaments completely automatic and dev controlled. Instead, they added in the ability to, on top of the dev created content, let the players create their own tournaments and events. The devs created an entire framework for broadcasting, hosting and managing events including the prize distribution. They even added support for betting on and watching the events. This wasn't 'a way for devs to get players to create content for free' but it was additional work by the devs to allow players the freedom to add to or control their game world.

    In many ways, support for user generated content is more work than just creating the content for the players, as it not only has to support the wide range of ways it will be used, but it also tends to grow organically, built on over time as a result of the emergent and creative gameplay that comes from it.

     

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,787Member Uncommon
    when i read player created content i think of all the awesome (and not so awesome) mods in Skyrim. If the foundry in Neverwinter isnt about that then i dont care about it. Im not interested in player created quests or dungeon runs.

    image
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,681Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Originally posted by Ezhae
    Is content like Foundry a lazy way out for devs? I wouldn't say so. It takes a hell lot of more work to create an ingame toolset like this for players to experminet with than making a new zone/dungeon.

    Like setting up a database, it is work to set up. Once done it lasts a long, long time. A new zone/dungeon lasts how long? The tools to let players create content lasts how long? Which takes more time to develop? The toolset is already in place. They just have to tweak it a little for the players to use.

    [EDIT]
    I imagine the greatest amount of work for the devs would be the monitoring of the created content.

    That's not necessarily how it works though. When writing a story-driven or scripted event, you can just fire and forget. When creating a complex tool - ANY complex tool - for a persistent game, you tend to develop that tool over time to support both the evolution of the game and how the players use it. 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • iixviiiixiixviiiix GSPosts: 836Member Uncommon

    I love spend my time to build a dungeon in game. With maze and trap , maybe put some monster in.

    But i don't think player can add reward item.

    Rewards are important part of game contents , you don't want to run hard dungeon to get nothing.

     

    Player's contents don't have motivation to make other player play it.

    It fun for creator but if other player don't want to play it , it useless.

     

    Player can't created contents unless they have full hold game resources.

    And if they hold game resources , that game will not last for long lol.

     

    So when i think about a MMORPG where player created content , i think it just a funny joke.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,792Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by Ezhae
    Is content like Foundry a lazy way out for devs? I wouldn't say so. It takes a hell lot of more work to create an ingame toolset like this for players to experminet with than making a new zone/dungeon.

    Like setting up a database, it is work to set up. Once done it lasts a long, long time. A new zone/dungeon lasts how long? The tools to let players create content lasts how long? Which takes more time to develop? The toolset is already in place. They just have to tweak it a little for the players to use.

     

    [EDIT]
    I imagine the greatest amount of work for the devs would be the monitoring of the created content.

    To create tools that allow players to create content isn't that hard.  If you want those tools to make it practical for players to actually create good content, though, that makes it massively harder.  I don't think it's impossible, but if it were easy, then why would any game not do it?

    What players really want is not so much professionally-done content as merely good content.  Whether the content is done by professionals or amateurs is irrelevant.  The only reason to favor content done by professionals is that it's more likely to actually be good--though that can be a very compelling reason all by itself.

  • Lovely_LalyLovely_Laly genevaPosts: 734Member

    To be honest I keep thinking: if it me who create the game, why I should pay to do it?

    try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises.
    Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2

  • Squeak69Squeak69 Colorado Springs, COPosts: 956Member

    this all depends is this a game that is based around building like minecraft or are we talking a non builder game ( what peopple cal sandbox dont count as builder most time in my opion).

    cause if its a builder style game im proud and happy, if its a non builder then . . . . . . um why am i playing a game that is hideing a lack of content behind the excuse of giveing players the ability to . . . .do  the same thing they do in all games but its brought to the fore front cause there is nothing else to do.

    i like crafting i really do but a game that has no contenet or shops and says you control the econmy for a reason , and there is no actual building aspect or perminent change to envirmentm is nothing but a rip off to me, ill go play something else.

    if thats what yall enjoy all the power to you but i like my story lines and in game lore.

    F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used toimage
    Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by Quizzical

    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Originally posted by Ezhae
    Is content like Foundry a lazy way out for devs? I wouldn't say so. It takes a hell lot of more work to create an ingame toolset like this for players to experminet with than making a new zone/dungeon.
    Like setting up a database, it is work to set up. Once done it lasts a long, long time. A new zone/dungeon lasts how long? The tools to let players create content lasts how long? Which takes more time to develop? The toolset is already in place. They just have to tweak it a little for the players to use.[EDIT]
    I imagine the greatest amount of work for the devs would be the monitoring of the created content.

    To create tools that allow players to create content isn't that hard.  If you want those tools to make it practical for players to actually create good content, though, that makes it massively harder.  I don't think it's impossible, but if it were easy, then why would any game not do it?What players really want is not so much professionally-done content as merely good content.  Whether the content is done by professionals or amateurs is irrelevant. The only reason to favor content done by professionals is that it's more likely to actually be good--though that can be a very compelling reason all by itself.
    I agree that players want "good" content and dev made content does not always mean good. As usual, each player gets to determine what is "good" for them.

    The tools used do need to be fine-tuned for players to use from what the devs use. But that will still not "guarantee goodness" from players. I think a heavy monitoring system needs to be in place to catch exploits and lore breaking content, which I think would be the most time intensive aspect.

    I think many devs do NOT use these tools due to their sense of propriety? I mean, it takes a different kind of developer to let players run amok in *your* world :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • EmrendilEmrendil TirionPosts: 199Member
    Originally posted by Lovely_Laly

    To be honest I keep thinking: if it me who create the game, why I should pay to do it?

    You are not creating a game, but content for a game.

     

    You need to buy tools first in order to create something. :)

  • oubersoubers bazelPosts: 876Member Common
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by Mystais
    I think that this is the new way of getting around the 'content locust' issue.  Let the players chase after them, not the developers.    image

     Free labor!!! Or worse, customers paying to do the devs job!

    Do you feel the same way about tabletop RPGs and live-action roleplaying?

     

     Apples and Chairs.  Not the same.

    so i guess you are one of those who like their content spoon fed huh?

    I had some some of the best times back in UO with player made quests (books with riddles and treasure maps).

    It CAN be a good thing you know...player content.

     

    image
  • allendale5allendale5 kansas city, MOPosts: 124Member

    I feel that the player-generated content will be a great addition to what is otherwise a pretty lackluster game in the case of Neverwinter.  But for me, it will depend on how much freedom that the Foundry allows.  By 'freedom' I mean whether or not we are allowed to build scenarios that employ co-op play or even opposing teams, or the abililty to produce character advancing scenarios.  Can we create sandbox-like mini-worlds or entire wars and sieges?  Will the Foundry system be usable by any player or will it be reserved for only those that are somewhat adept at programming?  Can I make a casino; can we make massive scenario trees that lead to various outcomes and NPC reactions?  Can we do things that we havn't even thought of yet?  

     

    --OR-- is this just going to be a 'jump in and fight 3 guys, then jump out' type of thing?  

     

    And of course they will have to make it worth while for players to participate, create, and advance via the PCC.  Also, sadly, they will probably have to monetize the whole system.   

  • Squeak69Squeak69 Colorado Springs, COPosts: 956Member
    Originally posted by allendale5

    I feel that the player-generated content will be a great addition to what is otherwise a pretty lackluster game in the case of Neverwinter.  But for me, it will depend on how much freedom that the Foundry allows.  By 'freedom' I mean whether or not we are allowed to build scenarios that employ co-op play or even opposing teams, or the abililty to produce character advancing scenarios.  Can we create sandbox-like mini-worlds or entire wars and sieges?  Will the Foundry system be usable by any player or will it be reserved for only those that are somewhat adept at programming?  Can I make a casino; can we make massive scenario trees that lead to various outcomes and NPC reactions?  Can we do things that we havn't even thought of yet?  

     

    --OR-- is this just going to be a 'jump in and fight 3 guys, then jump out' type of thing?  

     

    And of course they will have to make it worth while for players to participate, create, and advance via the PCC.  Also, sadly, they will probably have to monetize the whole system.   

    oh you can bet anything every single mob item and abulostly anythign you can do in the foundry will have to be bought in the cash shop,

    that is the name of cryptics game after all

    F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used toimage
    Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by allendale5
    And of course they will have to make it worth while for players to participate, create, and advance via the PCC.  Also, sadly, they will probably have to monetize the whole system.
    I can't find the quote, but someone for Neverwinter said something along the lines of "We want everybody to be able participate in the Foundry." He made it sound like they were trying to steer clear of monetizing it.

    I just cannot fathom that a F2P game would look at this highly anticipated and talked about feature and NOT monetize it.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • GGrimmGGrimm Cary, NCPosts: 49Member
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Originally posted by allendale5
    And of course they will have to make it worth while for players to participate, create, and advance via the PCC.  Also, sadly, they will probably have to monetize the whole system.

    I can't find the quote, but someone for Neverwinter said something along the lines of "We want everybody to be able participate in the Foundry." He made it sound like they were trying to steer clear of monetizing it.

    I just cannot fathom that a F2P game would look at this highly anticipated and talked about feature and NOT monetize it.

    If people aren't playing because they have run through the content then there is zero potential revenue stream form them. If those same players are still playing due to their enjoyment of the Foundry then the opportunity for revenue stream exists.

    If you haven't tried any Foundry scenarios yet, I suggest you do. There's one where you start off playing a game of poker that I found extremely creative. It's not entirely complete, but quite fun nevertheless.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by oubers
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by Mystais
    I think that this is the new way of getting around the 'content locust' issue.  Let the players chase after them, not the developers.    image

     Free labor!!! Or worse, customers paying to do the devs job!

    Do you feel the same way about tabletop RPGs and live-action roleplaying?

     

     Apples and Chairs.  Not the same.

    so i guess you are one of those who like their content spoon fed huh?

    I had some some of the best times back in UO with player made quests (books with riddles and treasure maps).

    It CAN be a good thing you know...player content.

     

    If i am going to be spooned fed, i prefer spooned fed by professionals, instead of amateur players.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    I can't find the quote, but someone for Neverwinter said something along the lines of "We want everybody to be able participate in the Foundry." He made it sound like they were trying to steer clear of monetizing it.

    If people are playing teh foundry, they may bought p2w stuff, or xp boost or whatever .. so the foundry can be monetize indirectly.

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    I really wish people would focus more on the benefits to someone creating UGC. No one forces you to do it right? Instead of focusing on ourselves maybe we could be happy it's available to those that enjoy making it.

    Besides, there are rating systems in place in EQ2 and I beleive NW so the argument of bad UGC is moot.
  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    Also, we're not talking about replacing dev designed content. It's an addition to that makes it a positive so players can experience addional content.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Aelious
    I really wish people would focus more on the benefits to someone creating UGC. No one forces you to do it right? Instead of focusing on ourselves maybe we could be happy it's available to those that enjoy making it.

    Besides, there are rating systems in place in EQ2 and I beleive NW so the argument of bad UGC is moot.

     

    Ratings can be inflated. Is a 5-star amateur module .. which can be better than all the other amatuer effort .. more fun than a professional effort?

    Sure .. if people want to make UGC .. be my guest. Just don't expect me to be very enthusiatic about it.

  • alloinalloin DeinzePosts: 89Member Common

    I think of Salem when reading player created content.

     

    It's an awesome niche game (WITH PERMADEATH) where almost everything is player created, houses, roads, villages, settlings,...

    Everything needs to be crafted.

    check out http://www.salemthegame.com/ 

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,681Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aelious
    I really wish people would focus more on the benefits to someone creating UGC. No one forces you to do it right? Instead of focusing on ourselves maybe we could be happy it's available to those that enjoy making it.

    Besides, there are rating systems in place in EQ2 and I beleive NW so the argument of bad UGC is moot.

    Rating systems, guidelines and even entire committees for some games. PotBS seems to have a great handle on new player-created ships. They look great, match the theme and are balanced well.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • birdycephonbirdycephon Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 1,314Member
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Originally posted by Ezhae
    Is content like Foundry a lazy way out for devs? I wouldn't say so. It takes a hell lot of more work to create an ingame toolset like this for players to experminet with than making a new zone/dungeon.
    Like setting up a database, it is work to set up. Once done it lasts a long, long time. A new zone/dungeon lasts how long? The tools to let players create content lasts how long? Which takes more time to develop? The toolset is already in place. They just have to tweak it a little for the players to use.

    [EDIT]
    I imagine the greatest amount of work for the devs would be the monitoring of the created content.

    I agree. Toolsets like that already exsts internally for development most of the time, if they are smart. The difference with the foundry, is they spiced it up a little and made it public. 

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by Aelious
    I really wish people would focus more on the benefits to someone creating UGC. No one forces you to do it right? Instead of focusing on ourselves maybe we could be happy it's available to those that enjoy making it.Besides, there are rating systems in place in EQ2 and I beleive NW so the argument of bad UGC is moot.
    Speaking for me only, I understand what you're saying. I get defensive because of the "hype" involved with the Foundry. "Greatest thing evah!" I may work overly hard at trying to tone it back a notch or two. I apologize for that :)

    By all means, I think having something like the Foundry in games is good! There are many creative people out there NOT in the industry. But don't expect it to be all peaches and cream. There will a lot more pits and soured milk than great tasting desserts. (I find myself suddenly hungry...)

    Yes, there will be some great player generated content. I don't think that will be "the norm", as they say.

    As far as PGC replacing developer created content, that will have to be seen. I certainly hope not! But I would be surprised if NWO had an aggressive patch/expansion schedule alongside the PGC. That is truly a lot of work for them!

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Yes, there will be some great player generated content. I don't think that will be "the norm", as they say.

     

    Yeah .. most player created stuff is crap. If they are good, they would be developers and making tons of money already.

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