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Crowd Control is a four letter word

24

Comments

  • sweetdigssweetdigs Washington, DCPosts: 196Member
    Doubt they will put it in the game, but getting charmed was one of the funniest things that could happen in EQ.  It would force you to start attacking your buddies.  Would love to see a confusion or charm type spell that could be cast that would do the same thing in CU, although with a much more limited duration than the charms could last in EQ1.
  • RealLifeGobboRealLifeGobbo Yorktown, VAPosts: 218Member

    Also related note, this was mentioned on another thead (can't remember which!), but I still liked it.

    In WAR, when you detaunted a target, you would take like 50% less damage for a few seconds and they wouldn't have you selected anymore.

    Taunting would also force a player to target you instead.

    Aspiring Game Musician <<>> Inquiring ears, feel free to visit: http://www.youtube.com/user/vagarylabs

  • ego13ego13 Reno, NVPosts: 267Member

    CC is  hugely important.  Without it there is very little strategy involved and it just becomes an assist train (which will likely be the case anyhow).

    One big thing to consider, there should be no ranged stuns imo.  You should have to sacrifice position to stun someone.  Mez/root/etc aren't as big of a concern since you can't kill someone without response but I think this one limitation could have great effect.

     

    Having differnet mechanics for PvE and PvP separately just lends itself to bad/poor creativity.  Just like in DAoC there were plenty of ways to get out of CC.  Also look at some of the games that are actually used as E-Sports; League of Legends comes to mind.  Based around 5v5 combat, stuns are VERY short term, there are multiple ways to break them and this doesn't overpower the champions using them.  WoW handles cc in one of the worst ways which is why, imo, they aren't used for any real E-Sport competitions even though you would logically think they could/would with their following.

    Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

    image

  • zekeofevzekeofev Mesa, AZPosts: 233Member
    Originally posted by Cirin

    CC is  hugely important.  Without it there is very little strategy involved and it just becomes an assist train (which will likely be the case anyhow).

    One big thing to consider, there should be no ranged stuns imo.  You should have to sacrifice position to stun someone.  Mez/root/etc aren't as big of a concern since you can't kill someone without response but I think this one limitation could have great effect.

     

    Having differnet mechanics for PvE and PvP separately just lends itself to bad/poor creativity.  Just like in DAoC there were plenty of ways to get out of CC.  Also look at some of the games that are actually used as E-Sports; League of Legends comes to mind.  Based around 5v5 combat, stuns are VERY short term, there are multiple ways to break them and this doesn't overpower the champions using them.  WoW handles cc in one of the worst ways which is why, imo, they aren't used for any real E-Sport competitions even though you would logically think they could/would with their following.

    League of legends games are entirely about the initiation. Team fights are so short that a 2 second stun is league is comparable to a 6 second stun if everyone had less damage and more hp.

     

    I really really really like Mez effects (hard cc like a stun, but it breaks on damage) to add strategy to combat. If Mez durations are long enough, a well coordinated small group can fight off a lesser coordinated larger group (read: Zerg). In fact that is why I loved DAOC so much.

  • ego13ego13 Reno, NVPosts: 267Member

    League of legends games are entirely about the initiation. Team fights are so short that a 2 second stun is league is comparable to a 6 second stun if everyone had less damage and more hp.

     

    I really really really like Mez effects (hard cc like a stun, but it breaks on damage) to add strategy to combat. If Mez durations are long enough, a well coordinated small group can fight off a lesser coordinated larger group (read: Zerg). In fact that is why I loved DAOC so much.

    PVP fights are entirely about the initiation. Team fights are so short that a 2 second stun can be a deciding factor.

     

    I'm not sure if you were intentionally being ironic or just didn't realize how what you said directly correlated to any good team fight in DAoC.

     

    **edit** Furthermore, it was an example of mechanics in relation to the actual game they are located in.  Not to be taken at face value and saying they should use the same mechanics but more an example of something done right.

    Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

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  • grogstormgrogstorm Peyton, COPosts: 304Member Uncommon

    CC is awesome.  Until it affects me :)

    Two things I would like to add to the discussion.

    1. Any character locked in place or slowed realistically should be able to switch weapons and fire from range.  Even if is only my trusty boomerang.
    2. I sure hope there is good visual’s I game so we can see the roots etc. and instantly determine what’s going on. 

    Grog

  • ego13ego13 Reno, NVPosts: 267Member
    Originally posted by grogstorm

    CC is awesome.  Until it affects me :)

    Two things I would like to add to the discussion.

    1. Any character locked in place or slowed realistically should be able to switch weapons and fire from range.  Even if is only my trusty boomerang.
    2. I sure hope there is good visual’s I game so we can see the roots etc. and instantly determine what’s going on. 

    Could also have a different system for buffs and debuffs.  Buffs could be icons with mousovers etc..  Could make a setting for debuffs to actually color the outer edges of the screen.

     

    Root?  Yellow glow on right.

    Mez?  Purple glow on left.

    Root?  Orange glow on bottom..

     

    etc..

    Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

    image

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,474Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by sweetdigs

    I would like to see some more creative CC.  Not a big fan of stuns/mezzes.

    How about a mana drain ability, that dampens the damage of casters in the area of effect or a single target and any spell cast by that target(s) transfers a portion of the casting cost to the mana drain caster.

    Or a mana feedback ability, that instead of draining the mana results in damage to any target(s) that attempt to cast a spell in the next (x) seconds.  They can still cast the spell, but they'll suffer damage if they do so.

    Short duration silence is another decent option.  Much better than stunning a caster - as the caster can still move and engage in other abilities (may even casters can use wands/staves in this game and hurl magical projectiles from the wand similar to a bow).

    Then, you could have abilities that counter physical damage types.  Blind - makes their screen go dark briefly or just reduces their chance to hit.  Snare/mud - slows their movement.  Weakness - greatly reduces the physical damage of the target for a short period of time.   You could have a cripple attack that reduces the damage of your target.  You could have a daze attack that prevents the caster you hit with an arrow or blow either from being able to cast at all or reduces the effectiveness of cast spells.

    How about being able to throw up flame walls?  Ice slicks?  Scouts/rogues to drop traps.  Etc etc.

    I also like the idea of being able to put short-duration damage shields around certain characters on your team.

    Basically I think there is so much more potential depth in the area of "CC" than just roots/snares/mez/stuns.  I think the best game would not have any "stuns" or "mezzes" which remove the character entirely from being able to do anything.  Better to debuff/snare, whether the ability/spell is single target or AE.

    And then there are all the new buildings that could potentially be built in cities, forts, or just around the world at strategic locations.  Magic dampeners, magic boosters, towers that strengthen nearby troops, towers that weaken, towers that speed or slow movement in the area. 

    How about towers that cast a haze around the area to make it more difficult to hit or reduce sight in the area which would really make things crazy and result in mostly melee or close ranged combat. 

     Just curious, do you fall into the I hate CC crowd?  Your "More creative" bit sounds like you are trying to get around CC because you hate it. 

  • morfidonmorfidon BochniaPosts: 245Member

    In order to make game pleasurable there must be CC like mezz and stuns. But the time of stun should be lower than in daoc or people would need a bit more HP like 120%.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,277Member Uncommon

    CC has never killed anyone. It's the dmg done while CCd

     

    CC is good.  Without it, you have button mashing spamfests

     

  • dotdotdashdotdotdash Llandrindod WellsPosts: 364Member

    CC is and always has been fine.

    The problem the cast majority of players have is that they feel that having control taken away from them is "unfair". It is, but only if you haven't bothered to play to the strengths of your class (strengths that allow you to either actively or passively mitigate the effect CC is going to have on you).

    In classic WoW, for example, Shadow Priests could "chain fear" according to most people. The reality was, of course, that they couldn't do this at all to a cogent, intelligent player. Fear effects suffered from DRs, and once the third fear had been cast the impact it was going to have on the rest of the fight became negligible. The REAL problem was that most people just didn't want to or couldn't learn how to deal with it; the idea of allowing a CC to "run" until completion was lost on a lot of people because they'd made the simple and false assumption that CC had to be broken at all times. The idea that you could allow the second fear to play out without interruption, saving on of your CC breakers for a further point in the fight when it was more valuable, just didn't get through. So Blizzard went about nerfing CC out of the game to appease those players who just refused to play properly at the time.

    So yeah... I've yet to find a game where CC is as big of a problem as everyone seems to make it out to be. The real problem is that developers don't spend enough time encouraging players to look at the meta involved with crowd control, which leads to a large volume of people just not knowing what they're doing or should be doing at any given time.

    There's also this idea that "only elitists like CC because it lets them be overpowered", which is of course utter nonsense. "Elitists/Veterans/Pros" or whatever else you want to call them are subjected to the effects of CC as much as everyone else; the reason they don't BROADLY complain is because 99/100 times the problem isn't CC, but the player. When I lose a fight to another player and CC is involved, it's generally because >I< have failed to mitigate the CC in an intelligent way and rarely because CC has given that players an inherent advantage.

    More CC, I say. More CC, and more encouraging people to play properly through easy-to-learn, hard-to-master game design philosophies.

    For the record, I've given up on Camelot Unchained. It looks almost totally uninspiring and I doubt it'll hit its funding goals.

  • GravargGravarg Harker Heights, TXPosts: 3,332Member Uncommon
    That's what Determination was for :)  i never had much of a problem with CC on my warrior, but I did have a problem with a wizard who could two shot a tank :S
  • dynamicipftwdynamicipftw Arrow, ALPosts: 207Member
    The only unbalanced CC in DAoC was nearsight (2 min, doesn't break on dmg, couldn't be dispelled for the first few years). Everything else was perfect. Best CC system of any MMO by far IMO.
  • morfidonmorfidon BochniaPosts: 245Member
    Originally posted by dotdotdash

    CC is and always has been fine.

    The problem the cast majority of players have is that they feel that having control taken away from them is "unfair". It is, but only if you haven't bothered to play to the strengths of your class (strengths that allow you to either actively or passively mitigate the effect CC is going to have on you).

    In classic WoW, for example, Shadow Priests could "chain fear" according to most people. The reality was, of course, that they couldn't do this at all to a cogent, intelligent player. Fear effects suffered from DRs, and once the third fear had been cast the impact it was going to have on the rest of the fight became negligible. The REAL problem was that most people just didn't want to or couldn't learn how to deal with it; the idea of allowing a CC to "run" until completion was lost on a lot of people because they'd made the simple and false assumption that CC had to be broken at all times. The idea that you could allow the second fear to play out without interruption, saving on of your CC breakers for a further point in the fight when it was more valuable, just didn't get through. So Blizzard went about nerfing CC out of the game to appease those players who just refused to play properly at the time.

    So yeah... I've yet to find a game where CC is as big of a problem as everyone seems to make it out to be. The real problem is that developers don't spend enough time encouraging players to look at the meta involved with crowd control, which leads to a large volume of people just not knowing what they're doing or should be doing at any given time.

    There's also this idea that "only elitists like CC because it lets them be overpowered", which is of course utter nonsense. "Elitists/Veterans/Pros" or whatever else you want to call them are subjected to the effects of CC as much as everyone else; the reason they don't BROADLY complain is because 99/100 times the problem isn't CC, but the player. When I lose a fight to another player and CC is involved, it's generally because >I< have failed to mitigate the CC in an intelligent way and rarely because CC has given that players an inherent advantage.

    More CC, I say. More CC, and more encouraging people to play properly through easy-to-learn, hard-to-master game design philosophies.

    For the record, I've given up on Camelot Unchained. It looks almost totally uninspiring and I doubt it'll hit its funding goals.

    I'm almost sure that it will get over 4$ milion on  KS. I can bet on it. You wil be surprised. I'm sure it will be funded in first day.

    This game will have interrupts and good CC. This game is the game we are waiting for.

  • RealLifeGobboRealLifeGobbo Yorktown, VAPosts: 218Member

    The only complaint I have about the whole CC system, was the durations of certain spells. Some of the mezzzzzzzzs would last almost a minute! That is a long freaking time if you can't break out of it! Other than that, I liked it. As stated before about WoW, I actually liked the "Fear" spells as you would randomly run around for a few moments, but as anything, limit how long you can do it for.

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  • BowbowDAoCBowbowDAoC Granby, QCPosts: 470Member
    Originally posted by RealLifeGobbo

    The only complaint I have about the whole CC system, was the durations of certain spells. Some of the mezzzzzzzzs would last almost a minute! That is a long freaking time if you can't break out of it! Other than that, I liked it. As stated before about WoW, I actually liked the "Fear" spells as you would randomly run around for a few moments, but as anything, limit how long you can do it for.

    even the long lasting CC was to certain extent not that bad, since it was in a more a "turn-based" system. if it was a game that the more you click the more you hit, then i would totally agree.

    Of course i probably wouldnt go on mezzes during as long as it was in DAoC, but not that shorter either.

    image

    Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
    Thurka on WAR

    image

  • shaodrinshaodrin sdf, AKPosts: 30Member
    Originally posted by dotdotdash

    CC is and always has been fine.

    The problem the cast majority of players have is that they feel that having control taken away from them is "unfair". It is, but only if you haven't bothered to play to the strengths of your class (strengths that allow you to either actively or passively mitigate the effect CC is going to have on you).

    In classic WoW, for example, Shadow Priests could "chain fear" according to most people. The reality was, of course, that they couldn't do this at all to a cogent, intelligent player. Fear effects suffered from DRs, and once the third fear had been cast the impact it was going to have on the rest of the fight became negligible. The REAL problem was that most people just didn't want to or couldn't learn how to deal with it; the idea of allowing a CC to "run" until completion was lost on a lot of people because they'd made the simple and false assumption that CC had to be broken at all times. The idea that you could allow the second fear to play out without interruption, saving on of your CC breakers for a further point in the fight when it was more valuable, just didn't get through. So Blizzard went about nerfing CC out of the game to appease those players who just refused to play properly at the time.

    So yeah... I've yet to find a game where CC is as big of a problem as everyone seems to make it out to be. The real problem is that developers don't spend enough time encouraging players to look at the meta involved with crowd control, which leads to a large volume of people just not knowing what they're doing or should be doing at any given time.

    There's also this idea that "only elitists like CC because it lets them be overpowered", which is of course utter nonsense. "Elitists/Veterans/Pros" or whatever else you want to call them are subjected to the effects of CC as much as everyone else; the reason they don't BROADLY complain is because 99/100 times the problem isn't CC, but the player. When I lose a fight to another player and CC is involved, it's generally because >I< have failed to mitigate the CC in an intelligent way and rarely because CC has given that players an inherent advantage.

    More CC, I say. More CC, and more encouraging people to play properly through easy-to-learn, hard-to-master game design philosophies.

    For the record, I've given up on Camelot Unchained. It looks almost totally uninspiring and I doubt it'll hit its funding goals.

    this, this and again THIS

    the only thing i could add to it is the fact that the duration actually doesnt matter ... its the counter wich dictates how much cc should be in the game if you have enough counter cc it could last longer than it could in a game with out any purges/clears

     

    thats why daoc had up to 1 min mezzes because you had the ability to decrease it down to like 10 secs for some classes (melee's) and everyone else got punished for bad positioning/group play

    but you allways had the posibility to get abilitys via group setup or ras to despell cc

  • sweetdigssweetdigs Washington, DCPosts: 196Member
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by sweetdigs
     

     Just curious, do you fall into the I hate CC crowd?  Your "More creative" bit sounds like you are trying to get around CC because you hate it. 

    Nope, don't hate CC.  Dislike certain CC, like long-range stunning and long-term mezzes, but even then don't hate it.  Just think it is a crutch and that there are better options.

    I'm surprised you think that some of my suggestions aren't CC.  They're all various mechanisms for crowd control or influencing the way a combat will play out, allowing for tactics to come into play more during a particular battle.

  • ego13ego13 Reno, NVPosts: 267Member
    Originally posted by sweetdigs
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by sweetdigs
     

     Just curious, do you fall into the I hate CC crowd?  Your "More creative" bit sounds like you are trying to get around CC because you hate it. 

    Nope, don't hate CC.  Dislike certain CC, like long-range stunning and long-term mezzes, but even then don't hate it.  Just think it is a crutch and that there are better options.

    I'm surprised you think that some of my suggestions aren't CC.  They're all various mechanisms for crowd control or influencing the way a combat will play out, allowing for tactics to come into play more during a particular battle.

    No...most of your suggestions were just ways of circumventing the traditional cc's and make it to where there are multiple ways to completely avoid any detrimental effects.  Having a multitude of debuffs/cc's as you suggest is more detrimental than just having some of the basics and concentrate ( as said above) on giving people options to avoid it and/or get out of it depending on your role and expected spot on the battlefield.

    Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

    image

  • PoporiPopori Hickory Grove, SCPosts: 334Member

    My only change would be to have area effect CC have a large failure rate.  It could be used to cull numbers, but not blanket control an area in one go without great luck.  Stacking them would likely still result in a blanket.

    I'd also go for CC resistance being altered by health/stamina levels, healthy targets are harder to control - the fleeing guy holding his arm on is likely to get wiped up.  I think it would solve the 'first to CC wins' scenario and add a bit of risk as to when is a good time to try to fire it off.

    These are concerning hard CCs like stuns/roots/mez, debilitators should be as per usual.

    Other than that I didn't mind DAoC CC.

  • TineaTinea North Olmsted, OHPosts: 80Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Popori

    My only change would be to have area effect CC have a large failure rate.  It could be used to cull numbers, but not blanket control an area in one go without great luck.  Stacking them would likely still result in a blanket.

    I'd also go for CC resistance being altered by health/stamina levels, healthy targets are harder to control - the fleeing guy holding his arm on is likely to get wiped up.  I think it would solve the 'first to CC wins' scenario and add a bit of risk as to when is a good time to try to fire it off.

    These are concerning hard CCs like stuns/roots/mez, debilitators should be as per usual.

    Other than that I didn't mind DAoC CC.

    I was going to post the same thing about lower success rate for aoe cc.  If you're not going to target a specific player, then your risk to the reward of more people controlled is that the result is somewhat random as to which enemies within the area are controlled (maybe even adding a maximum success count that is less than a full party).

  • ego13ego13 Reno, NVPosts: 267Member
    An easy way to do this is just ground target aoe.  Then being good with your abilities gives you that reward.

    Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

    image

  • RealLifeGobboRealLifeGobbo Yorktown, VAPosts: 218Member


    Originally posted by Tinea
    Originally posted by Popori My only change would be to have area effect CC have a large failure rate.  It could be used to cull numbers, but not blanket control an area in one go without great luck.  Stacking them would likely still result in a blanket. I'd also go for CC resistance being altered by health/stamina levels, healthy targets are harder to control - the fleeing guy holding his arm on is likely to get wiped up.  I think it would solve the 'first to CC wins' scenario and add a bit of risk as to when is a good time to try to fire it off. These are concerning hard CCs like stuns/roots/mez, debilitators should be as per usual. Other than that I didn't mind DAoC CC.
    I was going to post the same thing about lower success rate for aoe cc.  If you're not going to target a specific player, then your risk to the reward of more people controlled is that the result is somewhat random as to which enemies within the area are controlled (maybe even adding a maximum success count that is less than a full party).

    Hmm... that could work. Would you also gain "immunity" to that type of CC for... hmm, let's say a minute? That way you don't have several people casting all sorts of AOEs!

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  • VargurVargur OsloPosts: 143Member

    - Stuns should be reserved for melee, and then only long enough to allow the stunner to move for one positional attack (means roughly 3 seconds). Finding the right immunity timer is important in this regard. No AE or long-range stuns. Stuns should also have a reactional or positional opener to make it more difficult. Shield-bash felt a bit powerful for a anytime style.

    - Mez should be single target and limited to low-dps classes like healers, should not last longer than 20 seconds which is enough to give an advantage yet the one mezzed doesn't feel like a price bull about to be slaughtered.

    - Roots/snares should have similar timers as mezzes, but since people retain some control over their characters AE could be ok. Giving melee classes some abilites that can be utilized to help group while being snared would be helpful.

    - Nearsight was a pain in the arse since it was not disspellable, and wasting Purge on it was not an option when soloing.

     

    What people needs to recognize is that while perfectly tuned classes and groups had little problems with CC, it had a huge impact upon the players who had low-RR and or PUGs, and few things are more of a turn-off than being butchered repeatedly. A game's  longevity depends upon the number of people playing, and when people feel powerless they tend to find other things to do.

    The key is to design a game so people feel competitive even if they are at a severe disadvantage. A complicated system of checks and balances only drives away casual players, and casual players form the majority of players in most games. As a game loses players, it loses appeal to everyone else as well.

  • sweetdigssweetdigs Washington, DCPosts: 196Member
    Originally posted by Cirin
    Originally posted by sweetdigs
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by sweetdigs
     

     Just curious, do you fall into the I hate CC crowd?  Your "More creative" bit sounds like you are trying to get around CC because you hate it. 

    Nope, don't hate CC.  Dislike certain CC, like long-range stunning and long-term mezzes, but even then don't hate it.  Just think it is a crutch and that there are better options.

    I'm surprised you think that some of my suggestions aren't CC.  They're all various mechanisms for crowd control or influencing the way a combat will play out, allowing for tactics to come into play more during a particular battle.

    No...most of your suggestions were just ways of circumventing the traditional cc's and make it to where there are multiple ways to completely avoid any detrimental effects.  Having a multitude of debuffs/cc's as you suggest is more detrimental than just having some of the basics and concentrate ( as said above) on giving people options to avoid it and/or get out of it depending on your role and expected spot on the battlefield.

    You are certainly free to your opinion.  I'm not here to be argumentative.  If you believe "traditional" CC is the way to go, then so be it. 

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