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There are no raids... can you live with that?

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  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,460Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nerovipus32
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Not that I'm a "raider" or would want to repeat raids ad nauseum, but I don't see why there couldn't be raids that fit into the lore.

    Not that we want "another Oblvion Crisis" but an example of a raid could be an oblvion gate. Go up it and take on one of several daedra lords at the end of a battle up the tower.

    Or have an old dwemer ruin that is more than a ruin and the machines inside keep replenishing themselves due to some sort of dwemer plan for an impenetrable fortress.

    Or any number of things that "make sense". Maybe raiding in ESO doesn't take place all the time but there are raiding opportunites due to special events.

    In any case, just a thought.

    Because once you start the threadmill you can't stop it, and in the end the game will be focused on raiding and all other features of the game will be afterthoughts that recieve less updates.

    I think that's jumping the gun a bit.

    Also, it doesn't have to be "gear treadmill". The best gear in Lineage 2 was made from craftting, sometimes a rare drop and from raids. Since gear was difficult to make any of those options could work. Sometimes guilds would raid because their crafters couldn't keep up and sometimes the raids wouldn't work but at least they had their crafters.

    The assumption here is that raids have to be "a certain way".

    and that's not necessarily so.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by morbidlymystic
    Originally posted by Vorthanion

    There is nothing pointless about defending a design decision by the developers that creates a game that fits your play style.  If you want to point fingers and call someone pointless, then point them at the raid fanatics who immediately react with disbelief and anger that a MMO has the audacity to not cater to them.

    Adventure zones dude.  They have clearly said numerous times that they are making the game with hardcore players in mind as well.

     

    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    Really? Is that why the MMO with the longest upward growth of any MMo on the market, as well as second highest sub rate in the west, is primarily a PvP sandbox game? (Eve)

    I don't know why in the hell people play EvE.  The game sucks donkey balls.

    I like how everyone throws that outlier as proof though...

     

    The reasons for Eve's success are very well documented and can be repeated. Unlike WoW, which is a true, 100% outlier.

    Eve is how you're supposed to make a game. WoW is not.

  • SephrosSephros Somewhere, CAPosts: 396Member Uncommon
    Raids are so last decade!

    Error: No Keyboard Detected!
    Press F1 to continue......

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member
    I'm fine with raiding if it's not the only way to get the best rewards, every way of play should be rewarded equally. the problem is when it comes to mmo's for some reason raiders get the better toys.
  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,460Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nerovipus32
    I'm fine with raiding if it's not the only way to get the best rewards, every way of play should be rewarded equally. the problem is when it comes to mmo's for some reason raiders get the better toys.

    Sure and I completely agree. 100% on board. But it doesn't have to be like other games with treadmills.

     

  • QuorinaQuorina Hamilton, ONPosts: 41Member

    Since people are talking about WoW, I would not say that the majority of players raid. That is a complete fallacy. I guess on some servers like Illidan or Stormrage a lot of people raid but on my old server, Moon Guard, it was estimated that only about 4% of people were seeing raid content, IF that. It was a RP server, true, but most people didn't even RP either. It was also the second most populated sever after Illidan. Sorry to inform you, but raids are not the driving force behind WoW's popularity, but its casual pve content. Achievements, dungeons, LFR, mount collecting, pet collecting, scenarios, etc. I am not saying you are willfully ignorant, but you are still wrong. I am willing to bet you play/played on a very heavily raid centric server.

     

    Personally I've raided in WoW since Vanilla up to Mists of Pandaria (worst expansion EVER), when I quit the game.  ESO doesn't have to have raid content to get me to play, as long as it has other PvE content to enjoy. If it is PvP centric you can forget it. That's one of the things that made me quit playing GW2. I am not against having PvP content, but I do not play heavy PvP games like I used to. I am 32 and simply do not have the twitch reflexes that I used to have. I will still enjoy PvP content on a casual basis, though.

     

    I DO agree with other posters though, that raids should NOT have drastically better gear than other activites if they were in the game. Early Cata, for example, dungeons were extremely difficult to learn and master. So were raids, but they were about equally difficult compared to the dungeons. Yet the dungeons granted really crappy blue gear while the raid gear was unequivically better. Drastically better. I didn't see how this was fair, and I was a raider.

     

    A lot (but not ALL) of raiders are extremely elitist and like to think they are special snowflakes. So many of them think that ALL purple gear is raid gear that should be gated behind raids only. "Why do you need raid gear if you don't raid?" was extremely common among the mouth-breathing elitists. Hated it.

     

    just my two cents

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member
    Originally posted by Quorina

    Since people are talking about WoW, I would not say that the majority of players raid. That is a complete fallacy. I guess on some servers like Illidan or Stormrage a lot of people raid but on my old server, Moon Guard, it was estimated that only about 4% of people were seeing raid content, IF that. It was a RP server, true, but most people didn't even RP either. It was also the second most populated sever after Illidan. Sorry to inform you, but raids are not the driving force behind WoW's popularity, but its casual pve content. Achievements, dungeons, LFR, mount collecting, pet collecting, scenarios, etc. I am not saying you are willfully ignorant, but you are still wrong. I am willing to bet you play/played on a very heavily raid centric server.

     

    Personally I've raided in WoW since Vanilla up to Mists of Pandaria (worst expansion EVER), when I quit the game.  ESO doesn't have to have raid content to get me to play, as long as it has other PvE content to enjoy. If it is PvP centric you can forget it. That's one of the things that made me quit playing GW2. I am not against having PvP content, but I do not play heavy PvP games like I used to. I am 32 and simply do not have the twitch reflexes that I used to have. I will still enjoy PvP content on a casual basis, though.

     

    I DO agree with other posters though, that raids should NOT have drastically better gear than other activites if they were in the game. Early Cata, for example, dungeons were extremely difficult to learn and master. So were raids, but they were about equally difficult compared to the dungeons. Yet the dungeons granted really crappy blue gear while the raid gear was unequivically better. Drastically better. I didn't see how this was fair, and I was a raider.

     

    A lot (but not ALL) of raiders are extremely elitist and like to think they are special snowflakes. So many of them think that ALL purple gear is raid gear that should be gated behind raids only. "Why do you need raid gear if you don't raid?" was extremely common among the mouth-breathing elitists. Hated it.

     

    just my two cents

    you're 32 not 64 get a grip man. gw2 is more pve focused than pvp, the reason i left gw2 was because the wvw was terrible.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,463Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nerovipus32
    Originally posted by Quorina

    Since people are talking about WoW, I would not say that the majority of players raid. That is a complete fallacy. I guess on some servers like Illidan or Stormrage a lot of people raid but on my old server, Moon Guard, it was estimated that only about 4% of people were seeing raid content, IF that. It was a RP server, true, but most people didn't even RP either. It was also the second most populated sever after Illidan. Sorry to inform you, but raids are not the driving force behind WoW's popularity, but its casual pve content. Achievements, dungeons, LFR, mount collecting, pet collecting, scenarios, etc. I am not saying you are willfully ignorant, but you are still wrong. I am willing to bet you play/played on a very heavily raid centric server.

     

    Personally I've raided in WoW since Vanilla up to Mists of Pandaria (worst expansion EVER), when I quit the game.  ESO doesn't have to have raid content to get me to play, as long as it has other PvE content to enjoy. If it is PvP centric you can forget it. That's one of the things that made me quit playing GW2. I am not against having PvP content, but I do not play heavy PvP games like I used to. I am 32 and simply do not have the twitch reflexes that I used to have. I will still enjoy PvP content on a casual basis, though.

     

    I DO agree with other posters though, that raids should NOT have drastically better gear than other activites if they were in the game. Early Cata, for example, dungeons were extremely difficult to learn and master. So were raids, but they were about equally difficult compared to the dungeons. Yet the dungeons granted really crappy blue gear while the raid gear was unequivically better. Drastically better. I didn't see how this was fair, and I was a raider.

     

    A lot (but not ALL) of raiders are extremely elitist and like to think they are special snowflakes. So many of them think that ALL purple gear is raid gear that should be gated behind raids only. "Why do you need raid gear if you don't raid?" was extremely common among the mouth-breathing elitists. Hated it.

     

    just my two cents

    you're 32 not 64 get a grip man. gw2 is more pve focused than pvp, the reason i left gw2 was because the wvw was terrible.

    I did too, but I started playing again this week and things have really gotten better in WvW. Have to say I am looking forward to ESO AvA more as I still dont like this 2 week reset thing and not getting to know the guilds your fighting sucks. 


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    I like real raids. Too bad we haven't seen real raids done well in an MMO since DAoC in 2002.
  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by morbidlymystic
    Originally posted by nerovipus32

    WOW is shit in my opinion....

    Thus, your opinionis bad.  The market has spoken, and no other MMO has ever come close to its level of success. 

    The market also likes One Direction, Hannah Montana, and Beiber.

    Sales != quality.

  • QuorinaQuorina Hamilton, ONPosts: 41Member
    Originally posted by nerovipus32
    Originally posted by Quorina

    Since people are talking about WoW, I would not say that the majority of players raid. That is a complete fallacy. I guess on some servers like Illidan or Stormrage a lot of people raid but on my old server, Moon Guard, it was estimated that only about 4% of people were seeing raid content, IF that. It was a RP server, true, but most people didn't even RP either. It was also the second most populated sever after Illidan. Sorry to inform you, but raids are not the driving force behind WoW's popularity, but its casual pve content. Achievements, dungeons, LFR, mount collecting, pet collecting, scenarios, etc. I am not saying you are willfully ignorant, but you are still wrong. I am willing to bet you play/played on a very heavily raid centric server.

     

    Personally I've raided in WoW since Vanilla up to Mists of Pandaria (worst expansion EVER), when I quit the game.  ESO doesn't have to have raid content to get me to play, as long as it has other PvE content to enjoy. If it is PvP centric you can forget it. That's one of the things that made me quit playing GW2. I am not against having PvP content, but I do not play heavy PvP games like I used to. I am 32 and simply do not have the twitch reflexes that I used to have. I will still enjoy PvP content on a casual basis, though.

     

    I DO agree with other posters though, that raids should NOT have drastically better gear than other activites if they were in the game. Early Cata, for example, dungeons were extremely difficult to learn and master. So were raids, but they were about equally difficult compared to the dungeons. Yet the dungeons granted really crappy blue gear while the raid gear was unequivically better. Drastically better. I didn't see how this was fair, and I was a raider.

     

    A lot (but not ALL) of raiders are extremely elitist and like to think they are special snowflakes. So many of them think that ALL purple gear is raid gear that should be gated behind raids only. "Why do you need raid gear if you don't raid?" was extremely common among the mouth-breathing elitists. Hated it.

     

    just my two cents

    you're 32 not 64 get a grip man. gw2 is more pve focused than pvp, the reason i left gw2 was because the wvw was terrible.

    People start losing their twitch reflexes in their late 20s, early 30s. It's just not the same as when I was a teen or in my early 20s. I know I'm not 64. where it will be a lot worse :P

    I played GW2 for a couple of weeks when it released and it was definitely more PvP centric than otherwise. The major thing to do back then when hitting 80 was WvWvW. That might've changed since I last played, but the bad impression was already there.

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,058Member Uncommon

    YES!!!!!  thank God.

     

    I feel instanced raiding is the bane of this genre.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,616Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by morbidlymystic

    Tone down the cynicism bro.

     

     

    So...in summary, endgame to you is raiding. If that's how you feel, just say it instead of implying you're open to different ideas by saying "like raiding" when what you really mean is raiding period.

    WOW is by far the best at that...so why even leave WOW and consider something else? Or why try to reshape this endgame to be yet another lesser WOW?

    This game is designed with progresion RvR not raids for its endgame. They will have heroic dungeons and raid-sized open world events as well, but that's not where their development effort is focused.

    Personally, I'd much rather RvR than raid. This is why I'm interested in a game that is designed this way. Is that a niche for a small number of people? We'll see, but I doubt it.

  • CelestianCelestian DFW, TXPosts: 1,151Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by GreenHell
    They are basically alienating a large portion of the MMO demographic that could be potential revenue for them.

    You could just as easily say they are alienating the SCIFI market as well.

    They have to pick what their game is about.

    There are lots of games that cater to that market already, they are shooting for something else it seems.

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,616Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Celestian

     


    Originally posted by GreenHell
    They are basically alienating a large portion of the MMO demographic that could be potential revenue for them.

     

    You could just as easily say they are alienating the SCIFI market as well.

    They have to pick what their game is about.

    There are lots of games that cater to that market already, they are shooting for something else it seems.

    Exactly. I find it hillarious that on the one hand posters around here hate nothing more than another WOW clone but when they explain what they want in an MMO, it's WOW in a clown suit.

    Their illogic goes like this: WOW has meganumbers of subs. Meganumbers = the only measure of success. F2P = failure. This game needs to be like WOW or go F2P in 2 months.

  • DestaiDestai Detroit, MIPosts: 574Member
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Celestian

     


    Originally posted by GreenHell
    They are basically alienating a large portion of the MMO demographic that could be potential revenue for them.

     

    You could just as easily say they are alienating the SCIFI market as well.

    They have to pick what their game is about.

    There are lots of games that cater to that market already, they are shooting for something else it seems.

    Exactly. I find it hillarious that on the one hand posters around here hate nothing more than another WOW clone but when they explain what they want in an MMO, it's WOW in a clown suit.

    Their illogic goes like this: WOW has meganumbers of subs. Meganumbers = the only measure of success. F2P = failure. This game needs to be like WOW or go F2P in 2 months.

    It's not so black and white. Genres have established features - shooters have arenas, CTF, etc. Roleplaying games have skills/classes to level, dungeons, raids, and crafting. When those accepted features are not there, yes, the game is lacking. I personally don't want a WoW clone, but I expect the same amount of detail and polish that WoW delivered. I expect a combat system that is fun - not derivative. It doesn't have to be like WoW, nor GW2, but it has to be fun and it has to have feeling. 

    Furthermore, I don't expect - and the publishers shouldn't - WoW numbers in every MMO. It's not going to happen. The least these developers can do for themselves is lower the barriers and let players buy/try their game. F2P is often a sign of failure, especially when a sub-par game was gated by subscriptions. 

    The MMO market has two huge problems

    1. The failure of developers to come up with anything original or polished

    2. The failure of publishers to come up with a price model that allows entry into their game

     

    MMO culture won't improve until those two issues are resolved before companies waste millions of dollars on a game no one wants.

    That being said, I want ESO to succeed. I love the series. GW2 doesn't have traditional raids and is a success, but it offers substitute content and had to explain those things to players. Hopefully ESO can succeed at that too, and have a price model that makes sense.

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,616Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Destai
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Celestian

     


    Originally posted by GreenHell
    They are basically alienating a large portion of the MMO demographic that could be potential revenue for them.

     

    You could just as easily say they are alienating the SCIFI market as well.

    They have to pick what their game is about.

    There are lots of games that cater to that market already, they are shooting for something else it seems.

    Exactly. I find it hillarious that on the one hand posters around here hate nothing more than another WOW clone but when they explain what they want in an MMO, it's WOW in a clown suit.

    Their illogic goes like this: WOW has meganumbers of subs. Meganumbers = the only measure of success. F2P = failure. This game needs to be like WOW or go F2P in 2 months.

    It's not so black and white. Genres have established features - shooters have arenas, CTF, etc. Roleplaying games have skills/classes to level, dungeons, raids, and crafting. When those accepted features are not there, yes, the game is lacking. I personally don't want a WoW clone, but I expect the same amount of detail and polish that WoW delivered. I expect a combat system that is fun - not derivative. It doesn't have to be like WoW, nor GW2, but it has to be fun and it has to have feeling. 

    Furthermore, I don't expect - and the publishers shouldn't - WoW numbers in every MMO. It's not going to happen. The least these developers can do for themselves is lower the barriers and let players buy/try their game. F2P is often a sign of failure, especially when a sub-par game was gated by subscriptions. 

    The MMO market has two huge problems

    1. The failure of developers to come up with anything original or polished

    2. The failure of publishers to come up with a price model that allows entry into their game

     

    MMO culture won't improve until those two issues are resolved before companies waste millions of dollars on a game no one wants.

    That being said, I want ESO to succeed. I love the series. GW2 doesn't have traditional raids and is a success, but it offers substitute content and had to explain those things to players. Hopefully ESO can succeed at that too, and have a price model that makes sense.

    How do you think the MMO genre established the features you choose to include in your list? Were they always established features? And why is RvR not in your list of established features?

    Your post is a good example of exactly what I was saying.  No you don't want an exact replica of WOW, just the "established features" from it.

    Thanks for illustrating my point.

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,593Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nerovipus32
    Having endgame rading will just make the vocal minority rush to end game and then start complaining that there isn't enough content once they have done the raids. This happens with every mmo that has raiding..it's rush rush rush.

    QFT.

    I'm LONG past tired of dealing with the GO! GO! GO! crowd.  Take a few moments to read the quest text, so you have a sense of what needs to be done, and some people go into hysterics.  Hell, I've even seen some of those nut cases want to kick the tank, because they didn't pull everything in LOS at once.  With a 45 minute wait just to get here, are you out of your mind?? GO! GO! GO!...<rolls eyes>.

    Don't even get me started on the dps meter/Min/Max Gscore fanatics, who turn any given game into a second job...<face palm>

    Raiding is just another tactic used to extend the time people will stick around a game. It gives a sense of progression (which is good, its one of my focus points as well).  But its been badly abused by people who by this point should have the experience/knowledge to know better.  Its the natural result of the design decision to have hard (rather than soft) level caps.

    But thats an entirely different can of worms.

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member
    Originally posted by Quorina
    Originally posted by nerovipus32
    Originally posted by Quorina

    Since people are talking about WoW, I would not say that the majority of players raid. That is a complete fallacy. I guess on some servers like Illidan or Stormrage a lot of people raid but on my old server, Moon Guard, it was estimated that only about 4% of people were seeing raid content, IF that. It was a RP server, true, but most people didn't even RP either. It was also the second most populated sever after Illidan. Sorry to inform you, but raids are not the driving force behind WoW's popularity, but its casual pve content. Achievements, dungeons, LFR, mount collecting, pet collecting, scenarios, etc. I am not saying you are willfully ignorant, but you are still wrong. I am willing to bet you play/played on a very heavily raid centric server.

     

    Personally I've raided in WoW since Vanilla up to Mists of Pandaria (worst expansion EVER), when I quit the game.  ESO doesn't have to have raid content to get me to play, as long as it has other PvE content to enjoy. If it is PvP centric you can forget it. That's one of the things that made me quit playing GW2. I am not against having PvP content, but I do not play heavy PvP games like I used to. I am 32 and simply do not have the twitch reflexes that I used to have. I will still enjoy PvP content on a casual basis, though.

     

    I DO agree with other posters though, that raids should NOT have drastically better gear than other activites if they were in the game. Early Cata, for example, dungeons were extremely difficult to learn and master. So were raids, but they were about equally difficult compared to the dungeons. Yet the dungeons granted really crappy blue gear while the raid gear was unequivically better. Drastically better. I didn't see how this was fair, and I was a raider.

     

    A lot (but not ALL) of raiders are extremely elitist and like to think they are special snowflakes. So many of them think that ALL purple gear is raid gear that should be gated behind raids only. "Why do you need raid gear if you don't raid?" was extremely common among the mouth-breathing elitists. Hated it.

     

    just my two cents

    you're 32 not 64 get a grip man. gw2 is more pve focused than pvp, the reason i left gw2 was because the wvw was terrible.

    People start losing their twitch reflexes in their late 20s, early 30s. It's just not the same as when I was a teen or in my early 20s. I know I'm not 64. where it will be a lot worse :P

    I played GW2 for a couple of weeks when it released and it was definitely more PvP centric than otherwise. The major thing to do back then when hitting 80 was WvWvW. That might've changed since I last played, but the bad impression was already there.

    Really? Bernard Hopkins just won a world boxing title at 48. I think your reflexes will be ok for gaming for sometime yet.

  • MibletMiblet BognerPosts: 333Member

    '2. The failure of publishers to come up with a price model that allows entry into their game'

    TO be fair MMORPGs are pretty much the only past time I know of that hasn't, over a decade, increased in price.  It was the same price when I started playing EQ back in the day (exchange charges for US / EU based services not withstanding).

    Granted the actual game has increased ~40% in that time, but the recurring charges have not.  It is cheaper than almost any other form of entertainment for the time invested.

     

    The main holdup is the same as it always has been and that is the 'why should I pay for the game then again to play it?'.

     

    @nerovipus32.   I'm 32.  My reaction time has doubled from when I was 18.  DOUBLED!  Reaction times take a pretty big hit as you age and you don't even notice it happening, all part of aging, the gift that keeps giving.

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,593Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by morbidlymystic
    Originally posted by nerovipus32

    WOW is shit in my opinion....

    Thus, your opinionis bad.  The market has spoken, and no other MMO has ever come close to its level of success. 

     

    PS:  I like how you extrapolated the reasons for WoW's success, but don't like it.  lol, that makes sense.

    Exactly. Don't listen to what people *say* watch what they *do*.  WoW for all its faults (which are legion at this point) is a good game all the way up to level cap (currently 90). It has years worth of content, and when Ghostcrawler isn't up to his usual antics, at least some of the classes are entertaining to play.

    WoW has made Blizzard billions upon billions of dollars, over years and years.  Anyone who respects the concept of a free market (of which there is damn little in reality) has to respect that aspect of Blizzards operation.

    That having been said, WAY too many business suits/investors have been dazzled by those mountains of money.  At one point, all it took for them to throw truck loads of money at you, was to whisper the mystic phrase; "Its just like World of Warcraft"... ^^

    Thankfully, after many failed games, the edge is starting to wear off of that.  I'm hoping we do not see a crash like we did in 84, but given various trends thats possible.

    Bottom line, there are many, many different ways of making an entertaining game, but it requires Dev's who have the experience/knowledge/wisdom/resources and time to do it right.

     

  • jayheld90jayheld90 Canal Winchester, OHPosts: 1,763Member Uncommon
    no raids?!?! where the hell do i sign up!!!

    image

  • MibletMiblet BognerPosts: 333Member
    Originally posted by jayheld90
    no raids?!?! where the hell do i sign up!!!

    No raids in the traditional sense of large monster getting ankles stabbed.

    Raids will exist in the context of multiple group content.

    Really though who knows what we will get at the moment, the devs are being tight lipped about exactly what end game PvE stuff will be.

  • kidas52kidas52 Louisville, KYPosts: 26Member
    Why are all these new mmorpgs that look so great totally against people that like to raid? Guild wars 2  now teso... If they have no good high end content with more than 4 or 1 person people will leave after the 5 months.

    Jona ^_^

  • GrailerGrailer HamiltonPosts: 876Member Uncommon

    Raids arent needed for it to be fun .

     

    In Rift my favourite part of the game was the 5 man dungons .  In EQ I used to enjoy the small groups as well .

     

     

    In raids it feels impersonal and I feel like Im not really needed at all , and even worse there is barely any chance of reward when 1 or 2 items drop and 40 people are in raid .

This discussion has been closed.