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There are no raids... can you live with that?

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  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,611Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by morbidlymystic

    Faming mats, crafting, and pvp are your idea of endgame?  Well eve already has that endgame, so how is this revolutionary?   In fact, just about every game has those mechanics...yet they aren't considered end game by anyone.

     

    The game will rise and fall like SWTOR unless there is a real end game available.  The game has no chance without some real end game content like raids.   If you want a mediocre game like Eve, over the next gen BIG MMO, then there isn't much to say.  Its just sad.

     

    Also with LFR basically everyone can, and most do do the raids.  They might not be in heroic, but they shouldn't be doing heroic.  That is a mode too hard for them, and there is nothing wrong with that.   Actually, even heroic raids get nerfed to where casuals can do it at the end of the expansions.  You obviously have no idea what you are talking about!  You are just whining, because you can't do the raids at the same time as the best guilds can.   Why are you entitiled do to something at the same time and rate as a group who plays much better than you?  Makes no sense in life in general.

    What other "real" endgame content is there? You said "like raids" which I take to mean that raids are an example of one type of endgame content. And you ruled out farming mats, crafting and PVP--apparently that's not real endgame content....so please enlighten us with your idea of all the other real endgame content...which are like raids but not raids.

    Dying to know.

  • azarhalazarhal Somewhere, BCPosts: 761Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by morbidlymystic

    The game will rise and fall like SWTOR unless there is a real end game available.  The game has no chance without some real end game content like raids.   If you want a mediocre game like Eve, over the next gen BIG MMO, then there isn't much to say.  Its just sad.

    SWTOR had raiding at release, I don't think you comparison is working here.

  • danwest58danwest58 Cincinnati, OHPosts: 983Member Uncommon

    Alls I see is people who dont like raiding poiting out all the negatives of raiding.  The truth is If you dont like raiding tough dont raid.  Too many people equate Raiding with 40 man groups, hard boss encounters that take months to master and people yelling at them.  Those days of raiding are long going.  Take SWTOR raiding for example, the Story Mode and Hard modes in an 8 man setting is easy, relaxing, can be very fun and dramaless if you find the right group.  Yes SWTOR sucked for Hardcore players because they can finish all the content in a week.  Tough shit it was never built to be that game.  All you people that want to sit there and hate on raiders saying they are elites are just doing the same that Elites do when telling you to go earn your gear by raiding.  Why dont you all who hate raiding just deal with a game that does not have it and move on.  Just like the hardcore players moved on from SWTOR because it was not hardcore enough. 

    Too much hate and negativty does nothing to better your life.  Find one of the three dozen MMOs that fit you and play it and stop getting all up and arms about what developers do.  Have your opinion, post it, dont fight others who have their own ideas and wants.  Its pointless.

    image

  • azarhalazarhal Somewhere, BCPosts: 761Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by morbidlymystic
    Originally posted by azarhal
    Originally posted by morbidlymystic

    The game will rise and fall like SWTOR unless there is a real end game available.  The game has no chance without some real end game content like raids.   If you want a mediocre game like Eve, over the next gen BIG MMO, then there isn't much to say.  Its just sad.

    SWTOR had raiding at release, I don't think you comparison is working here.

    Anyone who actually played it will tell you it was bad.

    The ops were too buggy and not challenging when the game was first released. In fact the hardest part about Soa was often just dealing with the bugs.

    End game crafting was completely nonexistent.  There was one viable profession, biochem, and after you made your reusable consumables you were done. 

    The game was really just too much of a ripoff of WoW as well.  

    What you said in your first post is that ESO will fall without endgame like SWTOR did.  Bugs were SWTOR issue, not the fact that it didn't have endgame. Hence bad comparison. I'm just being picky.

  • GenadiGenadi BrisbanePosts: 110Member
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by GreenHell
    I didn't vote because I'd really have to see how enjoyable the rest of the game is. I just think it's odd that they wouldn't include raids of any sort. I like options and limiting those options in this day and age seems kind of foolish. They are basically alienating a large portion of the MMO demographic that could be potential revenue for them. Doesn't make much sense .

    This is one of the reasons I voted no. To me this seems like a big mistake to chuck out whats been a major part of MMOing for the past 15 years. I really hope they change their minds on this and not as an after thought with a bunch of 1/2 done raids that are not tripple A quality. You know there will be a bunch of hard core MMOers who will rip the content apart and get to end game and say "There is nothing to do" and quit. A lot of MMOers live for end game content and I have no clue how this game will float with no raids. Maybe as well as GW2?

     

    Hopefully the game won't attract those players. It's the 'Feedz me more content' scrubs that have ruined nearly every mmo I've enjoyed over the past 15 years. I haven't much hope for the game now anyways but if there are no raids it's a step in the right direction to creating something like a TES game which IMO must have a sandbox feel.

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member
    Having endgame rading will just make the vocal minority rush to end game and then start complaining that there isn't enough content once they have done the raids. This happens with every mmo that has raiding..it's rush rush rush.
  • danwest58danwest58 Cincinnati, OHPosts: 983Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by morbidlymystic
    Originally posted by azarhal
    Originally posted by morbidlymystic

    The game will rise and fall like SWTOR unless there is a real end game available.  The game has no chance without some real end game content like raids.   If you want a mediocre game like Eve, over the next gen BIG MMO, then there isn't much to say.  Its just sad.

    SWTOR had raiding at release, I don't think you comparison is working here.

    Anyone who actually played it will tell you it was bad.  Bad is the equivalent of it not existing.

     

    The ops were too buggy and not challenging when the game was first released. In fact the hardest part about Soa was often just dealing with the bugs.

     

    End game crafting was completely nonexistent.  There was one viable profession, biochem, and after you made your reusable consumables you were done. 

     

    The game was really just too much of a ripoff of WoW as well.  

    I will agree with you that the hardest part of SWTOR raids were the bugs.  That does not mean the game is bad.  It’s just built for casual gamer vs someone who wants to have hard progression.  You really are relying on personal opinion when it comes to what is a Bad game.  To me right now SWTOR is the game for me.  Why?  Because the raids are easy, I can spend the time with a handful of friends instead of needing a dozen or more people to raid.   MMOs right now at my point in life (working full time, having kids, and working on a BS Degree in CIS; working towards going for an MBA) are on the back burner.  This is why I don’t play WoW or Rift anymore, because they take too much time to get to end game raiding and require more time than I am willing to give.  SWTOR works well for me because I can cobble together a half ass set of gear and start raiding story modes.  Then work from Story to Hard and Hard to Nightmare, without spending more than 3 hours a week raiding and another 2 to 3 just doing other things.  I feel like I did something and I don’t need to spend the same effort in SWTOR as I did in Vanilla WoW raiding. 

    So keep saying how BAD SWTOR is.  It’s not Bad, its setup for a Casual MMO player like myself that rates Real Life and Real Achievements over a digital achievement. 

    O and what you do not see that I do is this.  (MMO DATABASE) TBL_User_Account_Info

    Columns

    Account, CharacterName, Credits, Gear

    EpicMMOGamer, SHIZKILLER, 9999999, ALL EPICS

    ^^^^ That’s all an MMO is, is information like this in a Database somewhere, you didn’t achieve anything tangible.   

    image

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member
    Originally posted by morbidlymystic
    Originally posted by Genadi
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by GreenHell
    I didn't vote because I'd really have to see how enjoyable the rest of the game is. I just think it's odd that they wouldn't include raids of any sort. I like options and limiting those options in this day and age seems kind of foolish. They are basically alienating a large portion of the MMO demographic that could be potential revenue for them. Doesn't make much sense .

    This is one of the reasons I voted no. To me this seems like a big mistake to chuck out whats been a major part of MMOing for the past 15 years. I really hope they change their minds on this and not as an after thought with a bunch of 1/2 done raids that are not tripple A quality. You know there will be a bunch of hard core MMOers who will rip the content apart and get to end game and say "There is nothing to do" and quit. A lot of MMOers live for end game content and I have no clue how this game will float with no raids. Maybe as well as GW2?

     

    Hopefully the game won't attract those players. It's the 'Feedz me more content' scrubs that have ruined nearly every mmo I've enjoyed over the past 15 years. I haven't much hope for the game now anyways but if there are no raids it's a step in the right direction to creating something like a TES game which IMO must have a sandbox feel.

     

    You mean like WOW?  Seeing as its by far the best MMO to date, and its earnings absolutely DWARFS anything else out there that is a pretty bold statement. 

     

    Pandering to hardcore entitled casuals that wan't items without effort is what ruins new MMOs.

    Raiding doesn't require effort to acquire items, it's down to time and luck. I'd rather get items from a challenging encounter than to have to do the same content over and over and over again in the hope that a shiny drops.

  • DogblasterDogblaster PraguePosts: 491Member
    Originally posted by Genadi

    Hopefully the game won't attract those players. It's the 'Feedz me more content' scrubs that have ruined nearly every mmo I've enjoyed over the past 15 years. I haven't much hope for the game now anyways but if there are no raids it's a step in the right direction to creating something like a TES game which IMO must have a sandbox feel.

    In case you didnt notice... themepark mmorpgs are about 'Feedz me more content'. Doesnt matter if they have raids or dont ... :) So if themepark mmo dont impelement raids there must be something else that replace it, because crafting, or doing quests, story, exploring wont make pve players play the game for years .. :) I hope dungeons and those big 50+ player battles will be damn awesome and not lame gw2 dynamic event copy, which are the most useless events ever made in mmorpgs. They were fun while leveling, not as end/elder game content ..

     

    themepark mmorpgs needs as much end/elder game features and content as possible. You would not like to live in real life if everything you could do is swim, going to park or chew the gum right .. you need choices and things to doo :D

     

     

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member
    Originally posted by Dogblaster
    Originally posted by Genadi

    Hopefully the game won't attract those players. It's the 'Feedz me more content' scrubs that have ruined nearly every mmo I've enjoyed over the past 15 years. I haven't much hope for the game now anyways but if there are no raids it's a step in the right direction to creating something like a TES game which IMO must have a sandbox feel.

    In case you didnt notice... themepark mmorpgs are about 'Feedz me more content'. Doesnt matter if they have raids or dont ... :) So if themepark mmo dont impelement raids there must be something else that replace it, because crafting, or doing quests, story, exploring wont make players play the game for years .. :)

    The focus of this game is RVR, whereas in games like wow  the focus is on raiding.

  • DogblasterDogblaster PraguePosts: 491Member
    Originally posted by nerovipus32
    Originally posted by Dogblaster
    Originally posted by Genadi

    Hopefully the game won't attract those players. It's the 'Feedz me more content' scrubs that have ruined nearly every mmo I've enjoyed over the past 15 years. I haven't much hope for the game now anyways but if there are no raids it's a step in the right direction to creating something like a TES game which IMO must have a sandbox feel.

    In case you didnt notice... themepark mmorpgs are about 'Feedz me more content'. Doesnt matter if they have raids or dont ... :) So if themepark mmo dont impelement raids there must be something else that replace it, because crafting, or doing quests, story, exploring wont make players play the game for years .. :)

    The focus of this game is RVR, whereas in games like wow  the focus is on raiding.

    Oh okey. So goodbye majority of pve players after few months? :) Nothing against it, just sounds weird when es was always about pve and now es mmo focus is RVR.. :) I thought PvE would be also very rich, I was wrong then ..

     

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member
    Originally posted by Dogblaster
    Originally posted by nerovipus32
    Originally posted by Dogblaster
    Originally posted by Genadi

    Hopefully the game won't attract those players. It's the 'Feedz me more content' scrubs that have ruined nearly every mmo I've enjoyed over the past 15 years. I haven't much hope for the game now anyways but if there are no raids it's a step in the right direction to creating something like a TES game which IMO must have a sandbox feel.

    In case you didnt notice... themepark mmorpgs are about 'Feedz me more content'. Doesnt matter if they have raids or dont ... :) So if themepark mmo dont impelement raids there must be something else that replace it, because crafting, or doing quests, story, exploring wont make players play the game for years .. :)

    The focus of this game is RVR, whereas in games like wow  the focus is on raiding.

    Oh okey. Bye bye majority of pve players after few months :) Nothing against it, just sounds weird when es was always about pve and now mmorpg is mainly pvp .. :)

     

    Well of course it was about pve, it was a single player game. Theres no point developing raid content when all the raiders will just go back to wow after a month or two anyway.  WOW does raiding better than anyone else and trying to compete with them on that level will only make the game fail. Elder Scrolls didn't have any raiding either btw :)

  • DogblasterDogblaster PraguePosts: 491Member
    Originally posted by nerovipus32

    Well of course it was about pve, it was a single player game. Theres no point developing raid content when all the raiders will just go back to wow after a month or two anyway.  WOW does raiding better than anyone else and trying to compete with them on that level will only make the game fail. Elder Scrolls didn't have any raiding either btw :)

    I am just saying its -1 elder game feature :) thats all. I dont care about raiding tbh, dungeons are damn enought for me if created well :) but after playing gw2 I dont want to end up playing game where I end up creating alt every month because there is nothing else to do in pve .. Because I wont stay with game like this again xD

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member
    Originally posted by Dogblaster
    Originally posted by nerovipus32

    Well of course it was about pve, it was a single player game. Theres no point developing raid content when all the raiders will just go back to wow after a month or two anyway.  WOW does raiding better than anyone else and trying to compete with them on that level will only make the game fail. Elder Scrolls didn't have any raiding either btw :)

    I am just saying its -1 elder game feature :) thats all. I dont care about raiding tbh, dungeons are damn enought for me if created well :) but after playing gw2 I dont want to end up playing game where I end up creating alt every month because there is nothing else to do in pve .. Because I wont stay with game like this again xD

    The game will have 16 dungeons at release.

  • DogblasterDogblaster PraguePosts: 491Member
    Originally posted by nerovipus32

    The game will have 16 dungeons at release.

    awesome :) now lets hope they will be challenging, fun and actually worth doing !

     

    + BIG Hope they wont be beatable in one or two days all of them. Numbers means nothing if they are doable in half an hour each :D

    But why to speculate here right, game wont be relesed till 4Q/2013 and untill then there will be ARR/AA/WildStar etc. games to go play if it fails :) so lets just see

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member
    Originally posted by morbidlymystic
    Originally posted by nerovipus32

    Well of course it was about pve, it was a single player game. Theres no point developing raid content when all the raiders will just go back to wow after a month or two anyway.  WOW does raiding better than anyone else and trying to compete with them on that level will only make the game fail. Elder Scrolls didn't have any raiding either btw :)

     

    Seriously?!?  Skyrim didn't have single player raids... How enlightening!

     

    Way to miss the point, and use a bad joke dude.  The point is the game is going to flop without some sort of REAL endgame, aka raiding. 

     

    Here is an interesting story.  Back in 2004 everyone said EQ2 would dominate WoW.   The exact opposite occured. 

     

    With well executed raid feature TESO could tople WoW, or at least compete and maintain a subscription base.  Otherwise, its doomed to be just another F2P pile of crap that can at best keep you entertained for a couple months.

    TESO won't topple wow and to even think it will is foolish. Raiding is the only real end game in your opinion, not everyone wants a game focused around that. Any game that has raiding never developes content in other areas, it's raid or die. TESO is about rvr hence why the races are split into 3 factions. Trying to be a jack of all trades will end up making the game master in none.

  • rygard49rygard49 Huntington Beach, CAPosts: 975Member
    Originally posted by Dogblaster
    Originally posted by nerovipus32
    Originally posted by Dogblaster
    Originally posted by Genadi

    Hopefully the game won't attract those players. It's the 'Feedz me more content' scrubs that have ruined nearly every mmo I've enjoyed over the past 15 years. I haven't much hope for the game now anyways but if there are no raids it's a step in the right direction to creating something like a TES game which IMO must have a sandbox feel.

    In case you didnt notice... themepark mmorpgs are about 'Feedz me more content'. Doesnt matter if they have raids or dont ... :) So if themepark mmo dont impelement raids there must be something else that replace it, because crafting, or doing quests, story, exploring wont make players play the game for years .. :)

    The focus of this game is RVR, whereas in games like wow  the focus is on raiding.

    Oh okey. So goodbye majority of pve players after few months? :) Nothing against it, just sounds weird when es was always about pve and now es mmo focus is RVR.. :) I thought PvE would be also very rich, I was wrong then ..

    You said it yourself... Crafting, doing quests, story and exploring doesn't keep players playing for years. What does? Repeatable content with increasing rewards, i.e. PvP, or progression PvE (also house management, but I think only a small percentage would find that worthy of years of their time).

    PvE progression doesn't have to be pigeon holed into just raiding. Small group dungeons, the 50+ and 50++ zones, and the adventure zones will all have that progression. Not only that, but it has been said that there are raid style encounters within the adventure zones for large groups to battle and be rewarded from. The idea is that you can go in with a small group and complete much of the content, but if you can get the manpower you can trigger those bigger bosses to spawn and get better rewards.

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member
    Originally posted by morbidlymystic
    Originally posted by nerovipus32

    TESO won't topple wow and to even think it will is foolish. Raiding is the only real end game in your opinion, not everyone wants a game focused around that. Any game that has raiding never developes content in other areas, it's raid or die. TESO is about rvr hence why the races are split into 3 factions. Trying to be a jack of all trades will end up making the game master in none.


    10 million subs for years says you are wrong....

    Says i'm wrong about what?

  • ragz45ragz45 rochester hills, MIPosts: 686Member Uncommon

    Love people that spout these stastistics about only 5% of mmo players actually raiding like they are truth.  I would like to see the scientific study behind these numbers.  The only time I've ever seen bliz post numbers about raiding, was when they said only 2% of the pop saw AQ40 & Sunwell.  That had nothing to do with what % of population actually raided.  But how difficult the raids were to gear up to and complete.

    There isn't any scientific proof of what % of mmo population actually enjoys raiding.

  • DogblasterDogblaster PraguePosts: 491Member
    Originally posted by rygard49

    You said it yourself... Crafting, doing quests, story and exploring doesn't keep players playing for years. What does? Repeatable content with increasing rewards, i.e. PvP, or progression PvE (also house management, but I think only a small percentage would find that worthy of years of their time).

    PvE progression doesn't have to be pigeon holed into just raiding. Small group dungeons, the 50+ and 50++ zones, and the adventure zones will all have that progression. Not only that, but it has been said that there are raid style encounters within the adventure zones for large groups to battle and be rewarded from. The idea is that you can go in with a small group and complete much of the content, but if you can get the manpower you can trigger those bigger bosses to spawn and get better rewards.

    I said previously that if you dont have raids you have to have other featuers, etc. :) you showed me there are other features planed and thats enought :) I never said raiding is the only endgame pve stuff just to be clear !

     

    Now I hope it will be fun maaan... :) and released today ^^

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member
    Originally posted by morbidlymystic
    Originally posted by nerovipus32

    Says i'm wrong about what?

    Originally posted by nerovipus32

    TESO won't topple wow and to even think it will is foolish. Raiding is the only real end game in your opinion, not everyone wants a game focused around that. Any game that has raiding never developes content in other areas, it's raid or die. TESO is about rvr hence why the races are split into 3 factions. Trying to be a jack of all trades will end up making the game master in none.

    Millions of paying subs for nearly a decade says you are wrong....

    Blizzard has grossed well over 12 billion dollars from WoW subs alone.   Thats not even including box sales or item store sales.

     

    There is no reason it couldn't topple WoW, IF they do it right.  It would be a huge feat, but its certainly doable.   WoW is obviously not going to be on top forever!  However, just being 2nd and actually maintaining P2P for years would be sufficient. 

     

    Unless Adventure zone is akin to Raiding then TESO is going to rise and crash, and it won't be a real MMO and it won't be worth spending years of time on.

    Yes and how many devs have copied the wow formula and failed? So because TESO doesn't meet your expectations it's going to fail? The game will have no raids at launch. It's an RVR focused game,  either accept that fact or find a game that has the features you like.

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member
    Originally posted by morbidlymystic
    Originally posted by nerovipus32

    Yes and how many devs have copied the wow formula and failed? So because TESO doesn't meet your expectations it's going to fail? The game will have no raids at launch. It's an RVR focused game,  either accept that fact or find a game that has the features you like.

     

    Thats just it, they made a poor imitation of WoW and failed.  Why would you want to pay them $15 a month for a cheap knockoff?  TESO isn't a cheap knockoff, and that is why it has a chance to be something more than a cheap F2P pile of shit like all the other mmos out right now.

     

    Yes, if it doesn't meet the end game expectations of the playerbase it will fail.  In this case when I say fail it won't be a truly great MMO for years and years to come.  It might make money, but thats the game companies idea of success, not the players. 

    But it does have end game, It's called RVR.

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member
    Originally posted by morbidlymystic
    Pretty much every MMO has PvP, yet they are all F2P.

    Pretty much every mmo has raids too.

  • immodiumimmodium ManchesterPosts: 1,578Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by morbidlymystic
    Pretty much every MMO has PvP, yet they are all F2P.

    Which I find strange. People are willing to pay a monthly fee for generic, predictible PvE content?

    image
  • PanzerbasePanzerbase Chicago, ILPosts: 423Member
    So basically this is PS2 set in a limited TESO world? No thanks, you can bang the drums all you like but PVP is a sideshow in the MMO industry, propped up by the PVE base.  People think a bit too highly of themselves, sorry but expecting special consideration for said sideshow is asinine. The PVP crowd tends to be your non paying FTP hype machine, and this is what kills a game faster than anything else. I see another minor game on the horizon that will peak and sputter just like all the rest, never knowing all they had to do was go the extra mile and try harder. 
This discussion has been closed.