This game is going to be subs and pay to win cash shop, starting with kickstarter.
I hope ypu people know what you're in to.
My opinion? virtual world is not worth that money to be spent on.
^ Completely misinformation. Please go read about the game and kickstarter before attempting character assassination.
Not misinformation at all. YOU need to read the article linked in the original post.
Just to look at one small quote from that article: "...special crafter items (all cosmetic, things such as weapon forge, forge glow, apron, additional storage space,..."
"additional storage space" is NOT just cosmetic. If you think that it is - ask any crafter.
I see this "additional storage space" as a visual effect in game. Something like a bigger shop. Because all the other things are cosmetic. Maybe I'm wrong of course...
This game is going to be subs and pay to win cash shop, starting with kickstarter.
I hope ypu people know what you're in to.
My opinion? virtual world is not worth that money to be spent on.
^ Completely misinformation. Please go read about the game and kickstarter before attempting character assassination.
Not misinformation at all. YOU need to read the article linked in the original post.
Just to look at one small quote from that article: "...special crafter items (all cosmetic, things such as weapon forge, forge glow, apron, additional storage space,..."
"additional storage space" is NOT just cosmetic. If you think that it is - ask any crafter.
Pay To WIn cash shops usually utilize selling items to players that will postively effect the outcome of combat probabilities, which in this case, isn't what's happening with the founder's store. If you back the project on Kickstarter, you'll be given a type of currency in which you will be able to purchase various cosmetic upgrades that will not be game breaking or provide a significant advantage over an individual that did not support the kickstarter.
Spin it in any light you want, but providing a few extra slots of storage space isn't game breaking.
My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.
No cash shop. The in-game store allows people to redeem their FP for items that they would have chosen for their Pledge Tiers during our Kickstarter. Instead of simply loading up the box (physical or digital) with items that a lot of people might not have wanted, posters here and on other forums asked for more flexibility. FPs allowed us to put a ton of items in the store so that each player is able to customize their rewards. It's as simple as that. FYI, there will be no XP potions, power-ups, etc. either in the rewards or ever. This is a sub-based game and I have no intention to treat is as a F2P/B2P game.
The only knowledge I have regarding the Founder's Store is informatin given to all players by Mark and CSE. The rewards currently present as 'rewards' were all included due to community feedback here at mmorpg and reddit's camelot unchained page. Beyond that, you'd have to ask Mark for clarification. There's plenty of threads happening over in the general discussion board of CU that would likely answer your question(s).
Needless to say, utilizing the term "cash shop" is incorrect by definition.
My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.
"additional storage space" is NOT just cosmetic. If you think that it is - ask any crafter.
Pay To WIn cash shops usually utilize selling items to players that will postively effect the outcome of combat probabilities, which in this case, isn't what's happening with the founder's store. If you back the project on Kickstarter, you'll be given a type of currency in which you will be able to purchase various cosmetic upgrades that will not be game breaking or provide a significant advantage over an individual that did not support the kickstarter.
Spin it in any light you want, but providing a few extra slots of storage space isn't game breaking.
Not 'game breaking' by itself - maybe. But it certainly shows direction.
And it can be very hard to predict what is and isn't game breaking in MMOs. A couple of small changes here or there can have a massive impact on a game.
An extra character slot and a few extra item slots and a priority log in might not be game breaking by themselves... but added together you could be giving a players far more 'abilities' than you planned on.
I also recall that Mark Jacobs seemed to think a few percent of population imbalance was nothing to worry about in WAR too?
It shows that the idea of item shops is definitely in planning.
It also shows that Mark Jacobs is prepared to dismiss anything he doesn't (personally) consider as important as merely "cosmetic items".
And yet, from the developer blogs;
...We will also create interdependency between the crafters and the non-crafters through the use of objectives that will require the help of non-crafters to secure, such as the special crafting stations in various structures scattered throughout the world, rare and precious metal deposits, etc. Along with the whole “no gear drop from PvE NPCs” principle, the same RvR-players who can go out into the wild and secure these objectives will also need the crafters to fulfill their gear and item needs as well as their help in building and fortifying structures.
...In terms of housing, which I really should rename “building” or something more appropriate as housing conjures the vision of simply building houses, picket fences and dogs happily yapping in the yard, we also will encourage interdependency. Much like the crafting system, players who engage in building structures can and should cooperate with other members of their realms to get the best results more quickly. Structures that are geared to battle will require both crafters and non-crafters working together to build them rapidly as well as to make them as powerful and assault-resistant as their crafting abilities allow. Let us say you want to build a nice beachfront house (my RL personal favorite) on a realm-controlled island because it has the best views and you are hoping the market will appreciate so you can BBD it down the road (just kidding). In order to accomplish this, your realm will first have to take control of the island and then crafters will have to come out and build the house unless you truly want to take the time to build it yourself. Now, if you are a crafter, you can build the entire house by yourself but if you can recruit some fellow crafters to help you in your endeavor, not only will your team complete the house more quickly but they will gain certain benefits by helping you as well.
So, in an environment where "non crafters" must depend on crafters to secure and fortify objectives - could an extra character slot and a few extra item slots make a difference?
No cash shop. The in-game store allows people to redeem their FP for items that they would have chosen for their Pledge Tiers during our Kickstarter. Instead of simply loading up the box (physical or digital) with items that a lot of people might not have wanted, posters here and on other forums asked for more flexibility. FPs allowed us to put a ton of items in the store so that each player is able to customize their rewards. It's as simple as that. FYI, there will be no XP potions, power-ups, etc. either in the rewards or ever. This is a sub-based game and I have no intention to treat is as a F2P/B2P game.
The only knowledge I have regarding the Founder's Store is informatin given to all players by Mark and CSE. The rewards currently present as 'rewards' were all included due to community feedback here at mmorpg and reddit's camelot unchained page. Beyond that, you'd have to ask Mark for clarification. There's plenty of threads happening over in the general discussion board of CU that would likely answer your question(s).
Needless to say, utilizing the term "cash shop" is incorrect by definition.
How so?
You pay CASH for POINTS.
You then go to a SHOP to redeem those POINTS for ITEMS... some of which are not merely cosmetic?
Tabletop RPG gaming since Chainmail and D&D was a blue book with some cheap plastic dice and a crayon. MMORPGing since MOOS/MUDS, when forums were just bulletin boards and players actually roleplayed their characters.
The pricing for alpha / beta is far less than $500. People also have a complete misunderstanding to what Alpha and Beta testing truly is now that most MMO companies use beta access as a vehicle to show potential customers the product.
^^ Those two links will give you a better understanding of what will be required. Paying for Alpha access isn't a good idea if you just want to "see the game".
Starcraft 1 Late Alpha/Early Beta to Final Game Reference
My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.
The pricing for alpha / beta is far less than $500. People also have a complete misunderstanding to what Alpha and Beta testing truly is now that most MMO companies use beta access as a vehicle to show potential customers the product.
^^ Those two links will give you a better understanding of what will be required. Paying for Alpha access isn't a good idea if you just want to "see the game".
Starcraft 1 Late Alpha/Early Beta to Final Game Reference
$40 vs ~$250+ though? For testing? Really? At least in Star Citizen, for example, you get a nice ship you can use in game.
From reading, the game will take less than two years to develope? Of course not having any pve means no creatures to create. I suppose no questing either? Well I guess that does simplify development quite a bit then, doesn't it.
I am not trolling. I do like the idea of the game. I just am really uneasy about this Kickstarter and the fact that so much money is being asked for anything remotely meaningful and there's absolutely nothing to show for it but promises and hype, but mostly I am really taken aback by how easily folks are willing to just hand over hundreds of dollars for nothing more than these promises and hype. You all are setting the stage for more of the same or worse down the road.
How many mmos have lived up to the hype lately? But now you're willing to throw down a lot of real money as well? Not the slightest bit of skepticism, considering development has not even begun? Have we not learned anything from the past? I am not saying the game will be bad. I hope it does extremely well but the precedent this is setting is quite unsettling for the future of this industry.
Tabletop RPG gaming since Chainmail and D&D was a blue book with some cheap plastic dice and a crayon. MMORPGing since MOOS/MUDS, when forums were just bulletin boards and players actually roleplayed their characters.
Let me define cosmetic for those who can't figure it out:
Cosmetic means that said item, priority status, etc. does not give you an advantage when fighting another player. Having extra storage space is probably an advantage for a crafter (size of advantage up for debate), but it doesn't do anything to the outcome of a fight.
I'm sure if anyone sees an item, ability, priority that allows a player to have an advantage in a fight with another player, that's crossing the line between cosmetic and needed. It's a PvP game after all, and crossing that line is a big, big deal.
Let me define cosmetic for those who can't figure it out:
Cosmetic means that said item, priority status, etc. does not give you an advantage when fighting another player. Having extra storage space is probably an advantage for a crafter (size of advantage up for debate), but it doesn't do anything to the outcome of a fight.
I'm sure if anyone sees an item, ability, priority that allows a player to have an advantage in a fight with another player, that's crossing the line between cosmetic and needed. It's a PvP game after all, and crossing that line is a big, big deal.
Again, from the Developer blog:
...We will also create interdependency between the crafters and the non-crafters through the use of objectives that will require the help of non-crafters to secure, such as the special crafting stations in various structures scattered throughout the world, rare and precious metal deposits, etc. Along with the whole “no gear drop from PvE NPCs” principle, the same RvR-players who can go out into the wild and secure these objectives will also need the crafters to fulfill their gear and item needs as well as their help in building and fortifying structures.
IOW - to have the best gear you will need the best crafters. So it will give you an an advantage in battle to have better / faster / more skilled crafters than the enemy. Maybe only a slight advantage... but an advantage.
Also, actually being able to log in when you need to be able to log in (so that, you know, you can actually fight!) is an 'advantage'.
Anyway, for those following this shambles some of the proposed Kickstarter tiers have been posted
as you can see - incredibly complex. So complex in fact that a number of mistakes and contradictions have had to be pointed out to Mark Jacobs by forum goers... and he's not done yet either... Part 3 for the tiers worth $1000+ on the way.
Not to mention the issues they have had with getting it approved by Kickstarter (http://camelotunchained.com/en/pardon-the-delay/) because it seems that they have trouble following the Kickstarter rules which are posted in plain language for all to see.
Mark Jacobs has been simply adding to the confusion by posting all over the place with half cooked ideas (MMORPG.com, and Massively for example).
All this is made worse by the fact that City State seems to lack it's own official forum for the game. Another huge mistake (and one I would think he would have learned from WAR) since it effectively hands the job of creating (and moderation of) a community to third parties outside the developer.
It's pretty well known that community formation, creation and standards is a critical step in MMOs. But City State have no control over any of these things - so if a community forms full of fanbois who shout "STFU and go back to WOW!" at all passers by then all City State can do is watch. This might be fine pre release (aside from the fact the game will not get any critical objective testers) but post launch it is fatal as the 'community' will drive newcomers away.
Anyway, I digress.
The fact is, it seems City State is having trouble designing a Kickstarter - so much for the rest of the game.
Comments
Not misinformation at all. YOU need to read the article linked in the original post.
Just to look at one small quote from that article: "...special crafter items (all cosmetic, things such as weapon forge, forge glow, apron, additional storage space,..."
"additional storage space" is NOT just cosmetic. If you think that it is - ask any crafter.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
I see this "additional storage space" as a visual effect in game. Something like a bigger shop. Because all the other things are cosmetic. Maybe I'm wrong of course...
I'm much more concern with the Priority login.
Pay To WIn cash shops usually utilize selling items to players that will postively effect the outcome of combat probabilities, which in this case, isn't what's happening with the founder's store. If you back the project on Kickstarter, you'll be given a type of currency in which you will be able to purchase various cosmetic upgrades that will not be game breaking or provide a significant advantage over an individual that did not support the kickstarter.
Spin it in any light you want, but providing a few extra slots of storage space isn't game breaking.
Plastic-Metal, you seem to be well aware of what will be in the founder-shop!
could you please tell me what kind of cosmetic is?
- Priority Login
- Priority Appeal Queue
thank's a lot.
reminder:
CU will be a P2P game + cash-shop
. So it is the interest of every backers to know EXACTLY what will be made of the Founder-Shop!!! BEFORE the KS!
Not 'game breaking' by itself - maybe. But it certainly shows direction.
And it can be very hard to predict what is and isn't game breaking in MMOs. A couple of small changes here or there can have a massive impact on a game.
An extra character slot and a few extra item slots and a priority log in might not be game breaking by themselves... but added together you could be giving a players far more 'abilities' than you planned on.
I also recall that Mark Jacobs seemed to think a few percent of population imbalance was nothing to worry about in WAR too?
It shows that the idea of item shops is definitely in planning.
It also shows that Mark Jacobs is prepared to dismiss anything he doesn't (personally) consider as important as merely "cosmetic items".
And yet, from the developer blogs;
...We will also create interdependency between the crafters and the non-crafters through the use of objectives that will require the help of non-crafters to secure, such as the special crafting stations in various structures scattered throughout the world, rare and precious metal deposits, etc. Along with the whole “no gear drop from PvE NPCs” principle, the same RvR-players who can go out into the wild and secure these objectives will also need the crafters to fulfill their gear and item needs as well as their help in building and fortifying structures.
...In terms of housing, which I really should rename “building” or something more appropriate as housing conjures the vision of simply building houses, picket fences and dogs happily yapping in the yard, we also will encourage interdependency. Much like the crafting system, players who engage in building structures can and should cooperate with other members of their realms to get the best results more quickly. Structures that are geared to battle will require both crafters and non-crafters working together to build them rapidly as well as to make them as powerful and assault-resistant as their crafting abilities allow. Let us say you want to build a nice beachfront house (my RL personal favorite) on a realm-controlled island because it has the best views and you are hoping the market will appreciate so you can BBD it down the road (just kidding). In order to accomplish this, your realm will first have to take control of the island and then crafters will have to come out and build the house unless you truly want to take the time to build it yourself. Now, if you are a crafter, you can build the entire house by yourself but if you can recruit some fellow crafters to help you in your endeavor, not only will your team complete the house more quickly but they will gain certain benefits by helping you as well.
So, in an environment where "non crafters" must depend on crafters to secure and fortify objectives - could an extra character slot and a few extra item slots make a difference?
It sounds like it.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
How so?
You pay CASH for POINTS.
You then go to a SHOP to redeem those POINTS for ITEMS... some of which are not merely cosmetic?
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Star Citizen alpha and beta access... $40
Camelot Unchained alpha and beta access... $500?
Am I missing something? Something worth $460?
Tabletop RPG gaming since Chainmail and D&D was a blue book with some cheap plastic dice and a crayon. MMORPGing since MOOS/MUDS, when forums were just bulletin boards and players actually roleplayed their characters.
The pricing for alpha / beta is far less than $500. People also have a complete misunderstanding to what Alpha and Beta testing truly is now that most MMO companies use beta access as a vehicle to show potential customers the product.
Brief Explaination: Alpha and Beta Builds: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/380347/Brief-Explaination-Alpha-and-Beta-Builds.html
Beta test like a pro: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/380424/Beta-test-like-a-pro.html
^^ Those two links will give you a better understanding of what will be required. Paying for Alpha access isn't a good idea if you just want to "see the game".
Starcraft 1 Late Alpha/Early Beta to Final Game Reference
$40 vs ~$250+ though? For testing? Really? At least in Star Citizen, for example, you get a nice ship you can use in game.
From reading, the game will take less than two years to develope? Of course not having any pve means no creatures to create. I suppose no questing either? Well I guess that does simplify development quite a bit then, doesn't it.
I am not trolling. I do like the idea of the game. I just am really uneasy about this Kickstarter and the fact that so much money is being asked for anything remotely meaningful and there's absolutely nothing to show for it but promises and hype, but mostly I am really taken aback by how easily folks are willing to just hand over hundreds of dollars for nothing more than these promises and hype. You all are setting the stage for more of the same or worse down the road.
How many mmos have lived up to the hype lately? But now you're willing to throw down a lot of real money as well? Not the slightest bit of skepticism, considering development has not even begun? Have we not learned anything from the past? I am not saying the game will be bad. I hope it does extremely well but the precedent this is setting is quite unsettling for the future of this industry.
Tabletop RPG gaming since Chainmail and D&D was a blue book with some cheap plastic dice and a crayon. MMORPGing since MOOS/MUDS, when forums were just bulletin boards and players actually roleplayed their characters.
Let me define cosmetic for those who can't figure it out:
Cosmetic means that said item, priority status, etc. does not give you an advantage when fighting another player. Having extra storage space is probably an advantage for a crafter (size of advantage up for debate), but it doesn't do anything to the outcome of a fight.
I'm sure if anyone sees an item, ability, priority that allows a player to have an advantage in a fight with another player, that's crossing the line between cosmetic and needed. It's a PvP game after all, and crossing that line is a big, big deal.
Again, from the Developer blog:
...We will also create interdependency between the crafters and the non-crafters through the use of objectives that will require the help of non-crafters to secure, such as the special crafting stations in various structures scattered throughout the world, rare and precious metal deposits, etc. Along with the whole “no gear drop from PvE NPCs” principle, the same RvR-players who can go out into the wild and secure these objectives will also need the crafters to fulfill their gear and item needs as well as their help in building and fortifying structures.
IOW - to have the best gear you will need the best crafters. So it will give you an an advantage in battle to have better / faster / more skilled crafters than the enemy. Maybe only a slight advantage... but an advantage.
Also, actually being able to log in when you need to be able to log in (so that, you know, you can actually fight!) is an 'advantage'.
Anyway, for those following this shambles some of the proposed Kickstarter tiers have been posted
http://camelotunchained.com/en/reward-tiers-part-1/
http://camelotunchained.com/en/reward-tiers-part-2/
a list summarised by burfo from this thread http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/380890/Kickstarter-Reward-Tiers-Spreadsheet.html
as you can see - incredibly complex. So complex in fact that a number of mistakes and contradictions have had to be pointed out to Mark Jacobs by forum goers... and he's not done yet either... Part 3 for the tiers worth $1000+ on the way.
Not to mention the issues they have had with getting it approved by Kickstarter (http://camelotunchained.com/en/pardon-the-delay/) because it seems that they have trouble following the Kickstarter rules which are posted in plain language for all to see.
Mark Jacobs has been simply adding to the confusion by posting all over the place with half cooked ideas (MMORPG.com, and Massively for example).
All this is made worse by the fact that City State seems to lack it's own official forum for the game. Another huge mistake (and one I would think he would have learned from WAR) since it effectively hands the job of creating (and moderation of) a community to third parties outside the developer.
It's pretty well known that community formation, creation and standards is a critical step in MMOs. But City State have no control over any of these things - so if a community forms full of fanbois who shout "STFU and go back to WOW!" at all passers by then all City State can do is watch. This might be fine pre release (aside from the fact the game will not get any critical objective testers) but post launch it is fatal as the 'community' will drive newcomers away.
Anyway, I digress.
The fact is, it seems City State is having trouble designing a Kickstarter - so much for the rest of the game.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.