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Square Enix in trouble it seems

VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,645Member Uncommon

Well.. it's a shame, I admire SE on may levels as a company despite their missteps of late.

 

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/03/26/square-enix-expects-extraordinary-loss-this-fiscal-year-ceo-steps-down/

 

I wonder if this will have any impact on our MMO, or what the future is for SE in general... I would hate for EA or some Korean F2P giant monstrosity step in and get involved.

 

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Comments

  • Cod_EyeCod_Eye jarrowPosts: 1,016Member
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    Well.. it's a shame, I admire SE on may levels as a company despite their missteps of late.

     

    http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/03/26/square-enix-expects-extraordinary-loss-this-fiscal-year-ceo-steps-down/

     

    I wonder if this will have any impact on our MMO, or what the future is for SE in general... I would hate for EA or some Korean F2P giant monstrosity step in and get involved.

     

    Why make a new thread? it happens in business all the time, unless you know what goes on behind closed doors then everything what people say is all chit for chat.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5632628/Final-Fantasy-XIV-A-Realm-Reborn-Square-Enix-President-Resigns.html#5632628

    The Japanese are more proud than westereners and will ask for demotion if they feel they failed at delivering, whatever the reasons, I doubt it will have much of an impact on ARR, and Yoshi will still have control on development.  SE have survived many years and I have no doubt they will continue to strive without the nickel and dimers like EA.

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,645Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Cod_Eye
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    Well.. it's a shame, I admire SE on may levels as a company despite their missteps of late.

     

    http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/03/26/square-enix-expects-extraordinary-loss-this-fiscal-year-ceo-steps-down/

     

    I wonder if this will have any impact on our MMO, or what the future is for SE in general... I would hate for EA or some Korean F2P giant monstrosity step in and get involved.

     

    Why make a new thread?

     

    I stopped reading here.

    Either participate or don't, no one forces you to post. If the thread is unwanted it will either be modded or will sink. I don't mind if either happens. Either way, why ask that?

     

     

  • birdycephonbirdycephon Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 1,314Member
    SE has so much money that the loss they sufferd is hardly going to do any significant damage. Most of the loss was due to the development of ARR, which they will probably make up once the game gets going.
  • SwiftrevoirSwiftrevoir Largo, FLPosts: 156Member

    This comes as no surprise.  It started when Square went bananas and closed down the honolulu office, Sakaguchi's pet project.  One loss and they forced Hironobu Sakaguchi, the genius behind Square, the man responsible for ALL of the success of the company, into the background. 

    FF X was the last one he had any involvement with and to me was the last inspired FF.  And lets be straight, Square(Enix) is FF and without it it wouldn't have a pot to piss in.  As a longtime FF fan I wouldn't care a bit if Squareenix went the way of the dodo because it has been running off of fan service for too damn long. 

    I would still try and play the online iteration (I'm a sucker for fan service) but probably not for long given the other games being released later this year.  This has almost become a love letter to Squaresoft.  SquareEnix....meh.  I won't miss it in it's current state.  

  • nyxiumnyxium Posts: 1,222Member Uncommon

    This sucks.

     

    Makes me wonder if the FF XIV relaunch will really happen.

    image
  • nbtscannbtscan Phoenix, AZPosts: 781Member Uncommon
  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member
    Never really liked their games; FF XI was pretty innovative but FF XIV was garbage. Havent tried the new version but I am not the type of customer which gives a second chance to a game and I bet a lot are like me, in that regard. So I dont know if their losses is because of this game but it would make sense as it was a huge dissapointment.
  • AyulinAyulin Mt marion, NYPosts: 334Member
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Never really liked their games; FF XI was pretty innovative but FF XIV was garbage. Havent tried the new version but I am not the type of customer which gives a second chance to a game and I bet a lot are like me, in that regard. So I dont know if their losses is because of this game but it would make sense as it was a huge dissapointment.

    The new version is going in an entirely different direction than 1.0 did.

    According to Naoki Yoshida, his goal is to create a (in his words) standard MMO, by taking World of Warcraft and turning it into a Final Fantasy game, while also bringing in a lot of fan-service elements.

    Personally, I'm not impressed by the move, nor any new information that's come out about it. I realize they're bouncing back from a major failure with 1.0 and can't afford another one, but it feels like he's relying entirely on riding the coat-tails of WoW and other MMOs of its ilk, and depending on the FF themes and flavor to make it stand out. He's coloring by number, and staying unyieldingly inside the lines. It just echoes too much of what so many other MMO deveopers have attempted, certainly at the "suggestion" of publishers and investors, only to have the results perform underwhelmingly. I can't help but feel like his decision to bark up that same tree could result in similarly underwhelming results.

    That's my take on it. Your mileage may vary.

    Wada's stepping down surprises me. He'd mentioned some time back that if ARR failed again, that he would resign as CEO. That he's doing it now, makes me wonder what's been going on there at SE behind the scenes. He seemed really light-hearted and in good spirits during his appearances in their live letters. I wonder what went wrong, if not with ARR, then with whatever else brought this about.

     

     

  • Snowdon_CloudripperSnowdon_Cloudripper Chickasha, OKPosts: 584Member
    The only thing he is coping from WoW is the exp from quests , and elements if it . FATE reminds me of campaign battles in the past in ffxi , helmet defence was like the whitegate battles from XI , the class / job system is a FF thing in that one character can play anything . Will add a auction house witch they had in XI . Also XI is 10 years old witch is older WoW witch XI is a "clone" of Eve . And a very successful one at that.

    As for Wadda leaving SE it happens in any company. You set goals then fall short of the goals eventually you get canned. Such is life

    http://absoluteretribution.enjin.com/ Guild Website and Recruitment link

  • shingoukiehshingoukieh Fayetteville, NCPosts: 125Member
    To be honest....I miss SQUARESOFT. Ever since they went SQUAREENIX they sucked....Back in the day i would buy anything Squaresoft with no question ask...even tobal number one and that one fighting game that had FF characters...now i wouldnt buy shyt from them...maybe FF14 depending on reviews
  • WebzeroWebzero fayetteville, NCPosts: 33Member
    Well I for one hope they collapse and fall backwards in all the poo they have left.  Horrible experiences since FFXI and FFXIV topped it off for me.  Bought 2 copys on release and cant even get 1 beta key for reborn.  Fall in your poo! 
  • AlberelAlberel LondonPosts: 1,121Member
    Originally posted by Ayulin
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Never really liked their games; FF XI was pretty innovative but FF XIV was garbage. Havent tried the new version but I am not the type of customer which gives a second chance to a game and I bet a lot are like me, in that regard. So I dont know if their losses is because of this game but it would make sense as it was a huge dissapointment.

    The new version is going in an entirely different direction than 1.0 did.

    According to Naoki Yoshida, his goal is to create a (in his words) standard MMO, by taking World of Warcraft and turning it into a Final Fantasy game, while also bringing in a lot of fan-service elements.

    Personally, I'm not impressed by the move, nor any new information that's come out about it. I realize they're bouncing back from a major failure with 1.0 and can't afford another one, but it feels like he's relying entirely on riding the coat-tails of WoW and other MMOs of its ilk, and depending on the FF themes and flavor to make it stand out. He's coloring by number, and staying unyieldingly inside the lines. It just echoes too much of what so many other MMO deveopers have attempted, certainly at the "suggestion" of publishers and investors, only to have the results perform underwhelmingly. I can't help but feel like his decision to bark up that same tree could result in similarly underwhelming results.

    That's my take on it. Your mileage may vary.

    Wada's stepping down surprises me. He'd mentioned some time back that if ARR failed again, that he would resign as CEO. That he's doing it now, makes me wonder what's been going on there at SE behind the scenes. He seemed really light-hearted and in good spirits during his appearances in their live letters. I wonder what went wrong, if not with ARR, then with whatever else brought this about.

     

    It really bothers me how people keep taking that quote from Yoshi completely out of context. He was talking about how you progress through the game, i.e. he's added quest-based progression. At it's core that was the thing that set WoW apart from other MMOs at the time and the defining feature of all MMOs released since.

    The rest of the game has nothing at all to do with WoW. If he was trying to make a WoW clone why would the game have so many features that WoW will never have?

    OP you really shouldn't have made this thread though, it's going to do nothing but attract trolls.

  • AyulinAyulin Mt marion, NYPosts: 334Member
    Originally posted by Alberel
    Originally posted by Ayulin
     

    It really bothers me how people keep taking that quote from Yoshi completely out of context. He was talking about how you progress through the game, i.e. he's added quest-based progression. At it's core that was the thing that set WoW apart from other MMOs at the time and the defining feature of all MMOs released since.

    The rest of the game has nothing at all to do with WoW. If he was trying to make a WoW clone why would the game have so many features that WoW will never have?

    OP you really shouldn't have made this thread though, it's going to do nothing but attract trolls.

    I'm not taking anything out of context. I'm going on exactly what he said, straight out.

    He has stated he wants to take WoW and turn it into Final Fantasy. He has indicated that to try doing something different, or "reinventing the wheel" as he put it, would be unwise because he's "not smart enough" (again, his own words).

    He has reinforced that vision for ARR in myriad other ways, with a variety of other statements, and illustrated it in a variety of press materials released over time.

    There is far more of WoW in ARR than just the quest-based progression. You can plainly see that (unless you choose to ignore it) from the videos they've released, topics he's discussed in his "Letters From The Producer", questions they've answered during the Live Letters, responses he's given during interviews and quotes from him provided in articles about ARR.

    I'm not buying the deliberately narrow argument that "because it has some stuff that WoW doesn't, that makes it not a WoW clone". The things that make ARR a WoW clone are the very same things that make Rift, Warhammer and Allods WoW clones, along with many others. By now, people know exactly what is meant by the term "WoW Clone", in much the same way people understood when something was described as an EQ clone, or a Lineage 2 clone.

    When someone describes something as an EQ clone, it gives a very clear idea of what the gameplay is going to be like, what the pacing is going to be like, and various other aspects of the gameplay experience. When people describe something as a Lineage 2 clone, people get a good idea of the type of gameplay, the pacing and so on. The same is true for someone describing something as a WoW clone. And in this case, that description is backed up 100% by myriad remarks made by Noaki Yoshida himself, and accompanied by videos, articles and interviews. There's no "context" here. Nothing is being interpreted (except by you). What he said is what he said. What's been shown and explained has been shown and explained.

    It annoys you when people point all that out? Great. It annoys me that we have yet another MMO going in that direction. I guess that makes us even.

    For your remark at the end, there was nothing trollish about my post. I was sharing what I know of ARR and offering my view of it, along with some discussion about Wada stepping down. Just because you disagree with someone else's views does not make it "trolling".

  • NetSageNetSage Lake Geneva, WIPosts: 1,040Member Uncommon
    They'll be fine I'm sure.  And, people who keep saying square is only FF you couldn't be farther from the truth.  They play a hand in many well known titles.  While I'll admit it's a large part of the company they can survive without it.  They are also taking pretty good advantage of the mobile/tablet craze and reusing old games to make money.
  • RidelynnRidelynn Fresno, CAPosts: 4,179Member Uncommon

    They don't even mention ARR in the article. I have a feeling the brunt of the FFXIV fallout was felt on financial reports prior to this one.

    I would say Sleeping Dogs was the biggest disappointment, and none of their other AAA console games have really taken off like they have hoped.

  • AlberelAlberel LondonPosts: 1,121Member
    Originally posted by Ayulin
    Originally posted by Alberel
    Originally posted by Ayulin
     

    It really bothers me how people keep taking that quote from Yoshi completely out of context. He was talking about how you progress through the game, i.e. he's added quest-based progression. At it's core that was the thing that set WoW apart from other MMOs at the time and the defining feature of all MMOs released since.

    The rest of the game has nothing at all to do with WoW. If he was trying to make a WoW clone why would the game have so many features that WoW will never have?

    OP you really shouldn't have made this thread though, it's going to do nothing but attract trolls.

    I'm not taking anything out of context. I'm going on exactly what he said, straight out.

    He has stated he wants to take WoW and turn it into Final Fantasy. He has indicated that to try doing something different, or "reinventing the wheel" as he put it, would be unwise because he's "not smart enough" (again, his own words).

    He has reinforced that vision for ARR in myriad other ways, with a variety of other statements, and illustrated it in a variety of press materials released over time.

    There is far more of WoW in ARR than just the quest-based progression. You can plainly see that (unless you choose to ignore it) from the videos they've released, topics he's discussed in his "Letters From The Producer", questions they've answered during the Live Letters, responses he's given during interviews and quotes from him provided in articles about ARR.

    I'm not buying the deliberately narrow argument that "because it has some stuff that WoW doesn't, that makes it not a WoW clone". The things that make ARR a WoW clone are the very same things that make Rift, Warhammer and Allods WoW clones, along with many others. By now, people know exactly what is meant by the term "WoW Clone", in much the same way people understood when something was described as an EQ clone, or a Lineage 2 clone.

    When someone describes something as an EQ clone, it gives a very clear idea of what the gameplay is going to be like, what the pacing is going to be like, and various other aspects of the gameplay experience. When people describe something as a Lineage 2 clone, people get a good idea of the type of gameplay, the pacing and so on. The same is true for someone describing something as a WoW clone. And in this case, that description is backed up 100% by myriad remarks made by Noaki Yoshida himself, and accompanied by videos, articles and interviews. There's no "context" here. Nothing is being interpreted (except by you). What he said is what he said. What's been shown and explained has been shown and explained.

    It annoys you when people point all that out? Great. It annoys me that we have yet another MMO going in that direction. I guess that makes us even.

    For your remark at the end, there was nothing trollish about my post. I was sharing what I know of ARR and offering my view of it, along with some discussion about Wada stepping down. Just because you disagree with someone else's views does not make it "trolling".

    I was not referring to you as a troll, I was referring to later posts from people who have obviously spotted this thread on the feed on the main page and decided to offer their meaningless garbage to the dicussion. You'll know the ones I mean if you scroll through the thread.

    Here's the problem though: people don't all agree on what 'WoW-clone' means. If you look on these forums you will see at least one post on every single game branding it a WoW-clone and in most of those cases it is absolutely absurd. Now I noticed that your post there was lacking even one single example of a feature that made the game a clone, so please give us your definition of a WoW-clone and enlighten us about what features FFXIV has that make it one.

  • redcloud16redcloud16 Seattle, WAPosts: 222Member
    Originally posted by Ayulin

    I'm not taking anything out of context. I'm going on exactly what he said, straight out.

    -snip-

    For your remark at the end, there was nothing trollish about my post. I was sharing what I know of ARR and offering my view of it, along with some discussion about Wada stepping down. Just because you disagree with someone else's views does not make it "trolling".

    So, the problem with Version one of FFXIV was that when it was made, it was made with absolutely no perspetive on how teh genre had evolved, what direction it had took, what standards how come to be expected by the community. This was admitted outright by Tanaka himself. He made a game, but was out of touch with that game's audience. That, coupledwith many other things, lead to the game's abhorrent failure. 

     

    ARR is a WoW clone just as much as any MMO from EQ (yes, I went there) to present. EQ and WoW made many features of the MMO industry not only standard, but expected. If your game didn't have certain things, people would just leave for the games that did have those things. 

     

    FFXIV had vitually none of hese things. 

     

    What Yoshida is doing is taking many of those expected features, trying to improve on what works and create the best game that he can with them. The other thing you are foretting is that you are seeing Yoshida's comments from your perspective. However, WoW was never a huge hit in Japan (did it even release over there?) I don't think Yoshida and team are familiar with the stigma that WoW has stateside. They jsut know that over here it is the No. 1 MMO. He's played the game, and many others like it. He is trying to see what is standard, what is expected. He wants to improve on those thigns and give players not only what they expect, but something a bit better. 

     

    Will it be a WoW-clone in the vein of SWTOR and Warhammer. I hope not (and don't think it will be.) I think it will have all of the MMO standards we ave come to expect from AAA titles, while still having it's own soul and spirit. 

     

    That is just my opinion. :) 

    image

  • ZizouXZizouX Burbank, CAPosts: 670Member
    Originally posted by redcloud16
    Originally posted by Ayulin

    I'm not taking anything out of context. I'm going on exactly what he said, straight out.

    -snip-

    For your remark at the end, there was nothing trollish about my post. I was sharing what I know of ARR and offering my view of it, along with some discussion about Wada stepping down. Just because you disagree with someone else's views does not make it "trolling".

    So, the problem with Version one of FFXIV was that when it was made, it was made with absolutely no perspetive on how teh genre had evolved, what direction it had took, what standards how come to be expected by the community. This was admitted outright by Tanaka himself. He made a game, but was out of touch with that game's audience. That, coupledwith many other things, lead to the game's abhorrent failure. 

     

    ARR is a WoW clone just as much as any MMO from EQ (yes, I went there) to present. EQ and WoW made many features of the MMO industry not only standard, but expected. If your game didn't have certain things, people would just leave for the games that did have those things. 

     

    FFXIV had vitually none of hese things. 

     

    What Yoshida is doing is taking many of those expected features, trying to improve on what works and create the best game that he can with them. The other thing you are foretting is that you are seeing Yoshida's comments from your perspective. However, WoW was never a huge hit in Japan (did it even release over there?) I don't think Yoshida and team are familiar with the stigma that WoW has stateside. They jsut know that over here it is the No. 1 MMO. He's played the game, and many others like it. He is trying to see what is standard, what is expected. He wants to improve on those thigns and give players not only what they expect, but something a bit better. 

     

    Will it be a WoW-clone in the vein of SWTOR and Warhammer. I hope not (and don't think it will be.) I think it will have all of the MMO standards we ave come to expect from AAA titles, while still having it's own soul and spirit. 

     

    That is just my opinion. :) 

    It neither looks nor plays like WoW.... Quest based progression is the only "wow like" feature.

     

    I will be subbing to the game for a long time to come....

  • MaephistoMaephisto somewhere, DCPosts: 632Member

    This sucks, I have grown up playing sqenix rpg's.

    There is good news coming in the near future atleast.

    Thief 4 will be launching soon (ish) and Eidos Montreal will probably begin making the next installment of Deus Ex soon afterwards.  While not enough to erase such terrible losses, I fully expect these games will sell very well.

    I have one question though, how in the hell did tomb raider underperform?

    image

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member
    Originally posted by Maephisto

    I have one question though, how in the hell did tomb raider underperform?

    It mentions here what SquareEnix might have expected/hoped for.  http://www.gamespot.com/events/gdc-2013/story.html?sid=6406183

    If you meant it as in "how could it possibly have unperformed?", well personally I've seen Lara Croft's damn face half my life and I'm pretty over the whole thing.  That's just me, but maybe people aren't that excited about the new Tomb Raider game of the month anymore.

    It still did pretty well, considering. 

    As for FFXIV, still not that interested in it, but that depends if they try to go sub or not... do you really think they'll try that after the first go?

    ie: I'm not saying the game won't be much better, but I think B2P might be more tempting to people who heard bad things about verson 1.  A free trial would work wonders too, I bet.

  • redcloud16redcloud16 Seattle, WAPosts: 222Member
    Originally posted by Eir_S

     

    It mentions here what SquareEnix might have expected/hoped for.  http://www.gamespot.com/events/gdc-2013/story.html?sid=6406183

    If you meant it as in "how could it possibly have unperformed?", well personally I've seen Lara Croft's damn face half my life and I'm pretty over the whole thing.  That's just me, but maybe people aren't that excited about the new Tomb Raider game of the month anymore.

    It still did pretty well, considering. 

    As for FFXIV, still not that interested in it, but that depends if they try to go sub or not... do you really think they'll try that after the first go?

    ie: I'm not saying the game won't be much better, but I think B2P might be more tempting to people who heard bad things about verson 1.  A free trial would work wonders too, I bet.

    It will be PayToPlay, subbed based. They are not going FreeToPlay as long as they can help it. The game wasn't designed for it, and the team does not want to dedicate their development efforts to making a swarm of items to sell en masse in a cash shop. They'd rather make the game the highest quality it can be, and fully available to everyone who pays. 

     

    I agree with them on that point. Generally Free to Play games are highly restrictive for the 'Free' audience, and as a result less quality than the PayToPlay counterparts. Even though I play many free to play games for free, I would much rather sub to a game I really like and feel deserves my money , than suffer through it being FreeToPlay (even If I were to sub such a game, the FreeToPlay effecs and cash shop would just bring the rest of the game down imho)

     

    That being said, people who have a copy of the first game and had a FFXIV service account at one time will get a free download of the game client, gauranteed access to Phase 3 of closed beta (and obvsly phase 4 which os open beta) and a free 30 day trial period. 

     

    I also think there will be a free trial for everyone else, to try out the game. I don't know anything about that yet, though. 

     

    Square Enix is being very generous with this game, particularly to those that stayed with the game or tried it out the first time around. I hope everyone takes these oppurtunities to make a opinion! :)

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  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member
    I said B2P, not F2P, but it's good that they're giving the old users special extras, they're the ones that truly deserve it.  I'll keep on the lookout for a free trial.  I've still got room for ONE subscription-based game, even though it's not my favorite payment type.
  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    I wonder if this will have any impact on our MMO, or what the future is for SE in general... I would hate for EA or some Korean F2P giant monstrosity step in and get involved.

     

     Well, it wont be EA...their CEO just stepped down as well for his massive mistakes and investor pressure over duping the numbers with SWTOR and Sim City.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • redcloud16redcloud16 Seattle, WAPosts: 222Member
    Originally posted by Eir_S
    I said B2P, not F2P, but it's good that they're giving the old users special extras, they're the ones that truly deserve it.  I'll keep on the lookout for a free trial.  I've still got room for ONE subscription-based game, even though it's not my favorite payment type.

    Ah, sorry for he misundersanding. 

     

     

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  • AyulinAyulin Mt marion, NYPosts: 334Member
    Originally posted by Alberel

    Here's the problem though: people don't all agree on what 'WoW-clone' means. If you look on these forums you will see at least one post on every single game branding it a WoW-clone and in most of those cases it is absolutely absurd. Now I noticed that your post there was lacking even one single example of a feature that made the game a clone, so please give us your definition of a WoW-clone and enlighten us about what features FFXIV has that make it one.

    And run the risk of violating NDA, which is enforced on this site? No thanks.

    Come back and ask me that question when the NDA's been lifted and we can discuss it freely, and I will happily provide you a list of things that make it a WoW-clone. There's plenty.

    In the meantime since you're again challenging me to "back up what I'm saying", I'll direct you to the direct statements made by Yoshida himself. Answers he's given in interviews, in the live letters, things he's explained in his Letters From The Producer, things he's clarified either directly, or through his community reps on the forums (the public ones) over the past many months now. His intentions and ideas are quite clearly explained.

    I like to go on the assumption that when someone makes certain statements - especially when those statements are reiterated and clarified a number of times - that they mean exactly what they're saying.

    I realize some aren't happy with the implications of ARR being another WoW clone and so they want to convince themselves that when he said "he wants to take WoW and make it into a FF game", that he somehow meant it in some specific way. You really can't get much more direct than that. Hell, I can't think of any other game developer who's come out and admitted it so readily. Most will try to dance around the topic, if not outright deny it.

    See, when you attempt to divine or interpret "what someone actually meant" when they say something, you've already dove head-first into the murky waters of conjecture. I prefer not to swim in those waters. I prefer to believe the person knows exactly what they're saying, and means exactly what they've said.

    So, if it's all the same to you, I'll take what the man says to be exactly what he means, and won't put words in his mouth by assigning my preferred "interpretation" to it.

     

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