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More Interesting Species/Races in MMOs

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Kuro1n
    Well part of the problem is everything has to be balanced these days, because everyone is going for the cookiecutter build in every game. It's quite boing.

    Not in D3. There are planning of gimmick builds, like the zero dogs WD. True, they are not as popular as the top ones, but all are viabe.

    In fact, if you go onto youtube, there are tons of experimenting with builds.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member

    Agree with all you said :)


    Originally posted by BahamutKaiser
    But everyone has their own taste in roles, for characters and foes. Me personally, I don't want any steriotypical demons which are simply fallen angels. When I think fallen angel, I assume both angels and demons are the same, rather, I'd play demons that were angels, and their name is just a status. If we go with a natural angelic lore, actual angels would be just like the manticore, they do not have freedom because they are servents of the holy, whereas a fallen angel (demon) would be free to choose his own path. Beyond that, if you have angels and vampires in a game, I'd rather have vampires represent the bat winged, evil biped. We all have our own tastes :]
    This part here I'd like to add a thought or two on. Dragons as a player race is one of my pet peeves. To me, Dragons are the ultimate power in a world. They take out entire cities with their breath, wipe out entire armies, and should be tough to kill. I just find it hard to fathom a "1st level Dragon" is killed by a lonesome rat early on. Now, if there was a way a player could become a dragon much later on in their career (think almost at or at end of leveling), I could swallow that concept much more easily.

    Demons and angels fall into this category for me. These are "otherworldly" beings with immense power that have no business dieing to a rat or two. Again, later on in a character's life cycle, these could be options for character "races", as such.

    There are some mythological beasts that are inherently evil, good, mischievous, nasty, anti-whatever and would not make for good player races, because not many players would play them as such. Magical constructs is another tough one for me to swallow :) Seeing a player fire elemental would be too much for me.

    You are right, though. Like almost everything else, people have their own likes and dislikes.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member

    There are a great many reasons why we dont have it.

    Asherons Call came out right around the time EverQuest did.

    EverQuest, straight up D&D ripoff. Became popular despite some seriously bad game designs. Lose every single thing on death AND forced you to camp a spot for hours on end for a mob.

    Asherons Call, 100% unique world and creatures. Low population despite some seriously great game designs. Fast paced, open class, sandbox, an immense crafting system and a magic system that no MMO has come close to touching since.

    EQ set the standard and created a large lack of original thought in developers to follow...just look at TESO. They are taking an EXISTING IP, I mean...the races are ALREADY THERE and yet they are so locked into this mindset that they are taking the ALIEN looking elves and making them standard faire pretty because they think THEY HAVE TO!

    Only players can change the genre by stop buying MMOs that fall in line and MAKE them change.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by jtcgs

    Only players can change the genre by stop buying MMOs that fall in line and MAKE them change.

    Players are not looking for change. They are looking for fun. Are you saying MMOs that fall in line are no fun for anyone?

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by jtcgs

    Only players can change the genre by stop buying MMOs that fall in line and MAKE them change.

    Players are not looking for change. They are looking for fun. Are you saying MMOs that fall in line are no fun for anyone?

     Odd and here this entire thread is about wanting more interesting species and races...one would call that a change.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Only players can change the genre by stop buying MMOs that fall in line and MAKE them change.
    Players are not looking for change. They are looking for fun. Are you saying MMOs that fall in line are no fun for anyone?
    I wish I could follow your criteria. I can find "fun" in almost any game I play. The MMOs I have tried in the past several years all had some aspect of "fun" within them. None of them have held my interest long enough to justify their box price. Even F2P games do not justify their "entry fee" for me to spend much time in them.

    Nowhere is there a world that calls to me to spend my time there for very long. I know you disagree with me, but there are other criteria besides "fun."

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    I wish I could follow your criteria. I can find "fun" in almost any game I play. The MMOs I have tried in the past several years all had some aspect of "fun" within them. None of them have held my interest long enough to justify their box price. Even F2P games do not justify their "entry fee" for me to spend much time in them.

     

    Nowhere is there a world that calls to me to spend my time there for very long. I know you disagree with me, but there are other criteria besides "fun."

    Yes. i would disagree. So what if i don't want to spend much time in a particular world? Even if it is fun for a few hours, it would be on par with other entertainment like SP video games, or movies.

    Now i don't understand your "entry fee" comment for F2P. Are you saying no F2P game is even as fun as the worse Sp game that you will play for a while?

    I find many F2P fun enough to waste some time on.

  • IkifalesIkifales tucson, AZPosts: 265Member Uncommon
    Yeah an MMO inspired by the Spore creature editor could be sick, as long as it was a true open and persistant world.
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Now i don't understand your "entry fee" comment for F2P. Are you saying no F2P game is even as fun as the worse Sp game that you will play for a while?
    I try to like the F2P games I have tried (otherwise I would not try them out), and sometimes find some fun if I look hard. But in the end, it was not worth my time to download, install, create an account, and subsequently uninstall the games and try to delete the account. Time is valuable, too, yes? And the time defragging the HDD after many install/uninstalls adds up.

    I have paid $30 for Morrowind and $60 for Skyrim (plus DLCs). I have played either game longer than my last few MMOs combined, very rarely sticking around long enough for an expac to be released. There are other games I have paid the same or less for that I still play now and then that are over ten years old. Better "bang for the buck", in my opinion. I can spend $60 for every new MMO that comes out (or download all the F2P ones), but if I am done in a month or two, it was not money well spent (or time invested for the F2P MMOs), in my opinion. Of course, every player has their own criteria.

    Back On Topic: If there were a wider selection of races, my time may increase as I try them all out to see where I find the fun factor for me.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • BahamutKaiserBahamutKaiser Hyattsville, MDPosts: 306Member
    Yeah, if there were unique characters with different gameplay and, alternate story portions it would radically enhance the amount of experiences you could have in that one world.

    As for balance, there are creative ways to make disadvantages and advantages for special features. Like flying causing you to take more damage, making you susceptible to ranged and give you incentive to fight on the ground. Others could swim, regular bipeds could accend into higher beings, like vampires or some air bender immitation. Some superior beings could be available only at higher levels, like angels... Though I will mention that dragons could be reared at birth.

    As for good old rats >.< why do they exist? As opponents :P what's is this communities obsession with rat analogies XD

    Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
    That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,668Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jtcgs

    EQ set the standard and created a large lack of original thought in developers to follow...

    One could say that developers simply went by the data on player behavior, which has been consistent from EQ to present - deviate from standard fantasy and gamers simply don't connect with it as well.

    Oh wait... nm...

    it's those lazy, uncreative devs! *waggles finger*

     

     

    ;)

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,668Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by jtcgs

    Only players can change the genre by stop buying MMOs that fall in line and MAKE them change.

    Players are not looking for change. They are looking for fun. Are you saying MMOs that fall in line are no fun for anyone?

     Odd and here this entire thread is about wanting more interesting species and races...one would call that a change.

    The problem though is that narius is correct. Either the people here are an extreme minority or they simply think they want it until they have it in a game. Whatever the case, players just don't go for it.

     

    Think about it in all its wonderous glory:

    Lots of races, each with their lush themed environments and history... cool! 

    So you want fast travel? NO THAT WILL RUINZ TEH GAME! Ok, so if you want to make a Salamander guy and your buddies want to make a Firedillo and a Half-Carrot, are you fine with each person doing an hour run to get together just to start playing? Yes? Well, then you're some tiny tiny minority because everyone else has rejected it so far. 

    Vanguard is a great example of giving people what they want, then they say it sucks and then when their problem is fixed they claim the game was dumbed down.  

     

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    This seems like a decent enough place to talk about something I'd like to do in a project I'm working on:  let players create their own playable species.  That's right:  player created artwork for fully playable characters that you can go out and fight monsters and play through the entire game with.  That would basically amount to the most versatile character creator ever, and by an enormous margin.

    Still, the question is how to do it.  

    Have you seen champions online char creator? It isn't quite as flexible as what you propose, but, that said, there is a lot you can do with their system. In anycase, if you haven't messed with it, it may give you some inspiration. It goes well beyone the CoH - customize through clothes and dives into customizing physical structure as well.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by BahamutKaiser
    Yeah, if there were unique characters with different gameplay and, alternate story portions it would radically enhance the amount of experiences you could have in that one world.As for balance, there are creative ways to make disadvantages and advantages for special features. Like flying causing you to take more damage, making you susceptible to ranged and give you incentive to fight on the ground. Others could swim, regular bipeds could accend into higher beings, like vampires or some air bender immitation. Some superior beings could be available only at higher levels, like angels... Though I will mention that dragons could be reared at birth.As for good old rats .why do they exist? As opponents :P what's is this communities obsession with rat analogies XD
    oooo! I never thought about dragon hatchlings! Interesting idea :)

    The beings at higher levels often times equates to "reach level X and then this becomes available" like the Death Knights in WoW. They get treated as a separate character rather than a continuation, or growth, of the same character.

    My favorite character of all time is an old (1980) D&D character that was a Half-Elf and later on became a Centaur due to a reincarnation spell. My DM had that transformation have some bad effects like being a horse in a dungeon = not good. The simple acts of turning around in a 10' hallway or navigating stairs became dexterity rolls! 5' Hallways were "back-out" only :)

    This kind of variety is gone from MMORPGs now.

    The rat references come from the old MMOs where rats were a very common "starter character" opponent for many MMOs :) Wolves, too, for that matter, though a little tougher.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • BahamutKaiserBahamutKaiser Hyattsville, MDPosts: 306Member
    I remember bees and worms >.<

    Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
    That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  • BahamutKaiserBahamutKaiser Hyattsville, MDPosts: 306Member
    damn thing double post again... Wish I could delete.

    Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
    That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,783Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BahamutKaiser
    Yeah, if there were unique characters with different gameplay and, alternate story portions it would radically enhance the amount of experiences you could have in that one world.

    Having separate storylines for different races is cost++;  How'd that work out for SWTOR, again?  Yes, it was different classes rather than different races, but still.

    Making a commercially successful game is as much about low costs as high revenue.  Had SWTOR been made on a $10 million budget and gotten the same sales figures, it would have been a massive success.  At $300 million, not so much.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,783Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zorgo
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    This seems like a decent enough place to talk about something I'd like to do in a project I'm working on:  let players create their own playable species.  That's right:  player created artwork for fully playable characters that you can go out and fight monsters and play through the entire game with.  That would basically amount to the most versatile character creator ever, and by an enormous margin.

    Still, the question is how to do it.  

    Have you seen champions online char creator? It isn't quite as flexible as what you propose, but, that said, there is a lot you can do with their system. In anycase, if you haven't messed with it, it may give you some inspiration. It goes well beyone the CoH - customize through clothes and dives into customizing physical structure as well.

    Yeah, I played Champions Online a lot.  While the character creator is good for the game they designed, the thrust of it is very different from what I had in mind.

    Champions Online has a ton of custom-made art pieces.  Designing your character is mostly about selecting from a bunch of pre-made pieces.  There are sliders to make various body parts larger or smaller, but the basic humanoid shape of your character is always the same.

    From for what I want to do, there are two major problems with the Champions Online character creator.  One is that I want the geometry and animations to be far more flexible, rather than having to choose from a handful of predesigned pieces.  The other is that having a ton of premade artwork that actually looks good isn't terribly feasible for a project that has exactly zero artists working on it.  That's the sort of thing that a big-budget AAA MMORPG can (and probably should) do, but a no-budget indie game can't.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Making some races massively larger than others like that has the potential to break so many things.  I'm not saying that it can't be done, but it would be a major pain to design combat around that.

    Have to agree with Quizz. After doing the events in GW2, the dragon in Frostgrouge is a fucking pain to target. Same for fire Ele.

    dont get me fucking started on shatter. Annoying....

    image

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    I am tired of animalnoid races.

    image

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,783Member Uncommon
    One thing I forgot to say earlier:  if you want to do procedurally-generated anything, then having tessellation available is likely to be a big help.  Tessellation is really just procedurally-generated vertex data.  Breaking triangles into more triangles in a geometrically intuitive manner is one thing that you can do with tessellation, but hardly the only thing.
  • BahamutKaiserBahamutKaiser Hyattsville, MDPosts: 306Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    I am tired of animalnoid races.

    Demihuman races? Anthropomorphic races?, yeah, if the creature features are so great, go with the direct creature, about the only werecreature I wanna see is a werewolf, because it's a classic.

    As for super large playable creatures, I wouldn't suggest anything bigger than 3 times the typical character, or approx 20'. Boss and giant opponents arn't so much of a concern, but when your playing a unit, it has to be able to utilize a working camera angle, and larger characters may even be limited on tight terrain.  But tight terrain may be a specific limitation for large creatures and an advantage for small ones, Dwarves for one, I've never been able to perceive an advantage for them against any other race, but in their natural setting, underground and caves, small and tight spaces would naturally lend to their size and grant them more maneuverability. A grown man crawling on his knees will stand no chance vs a dwarf, and huge dragons may be completely blocked off from pursuing. This feature of unique environmental settings allows variety and depth, as well as alternative advantages for different types of creatures.

    As for dividing up character theme and gameplay, a great deal of gameplay can be used between different creatures. All Creatures with teeth have most of the variations of bite skills, anything with claws have similar selections of claw attacks, tail > tail attacks, general size and sturdiness > charges and ramming, wings > flight skills, aquatic nature > swimming and underwater effects. Of the vast number of creatures in the world, many features are the same, almost all mammals are limited to biting, scratching, mauling, maybe crushing and ramming, a few unique skills and attack effect can be custom to specific creatures to give them more depth, like playable sentient wildcats being able to climb well and playable wolves not. Variations of magic can be offered to diversify their options and roles, and despite nonsense about how much it cost to do things in triple A fashion, the vast majority of games include a portion of story content and setting specific to that character type. But we can raise what a triple A heavily class unique feature would not mean to simply having some setting and unique features for each character if we are dense.

    Beyond that, sizable charcters can be balanced to take unique advantages and disadvantages like higher general power, but also be easy to strike and easier to be engaged by multiple foes, as well as unique disadvantages like taking bonus damage from AoE, since being large and getting hit by and large by an area attack means it's going to hit you all over. One man getting hit by a rain of arrows is likely to get far less than something taking up 15 times more surface area.

    Enough freebies for today.

    Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
    That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

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