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Is it even possible to make an F2p without selling advatages?

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  • RaysheRayshe Member UncommonPosts: 1,279

    TSW was going good. it was going REALLY good. Then the non subbed idea has brought in things like Cash for AP. This makes me very sad. Hopefully the people i talk to on the site can create enough of a negative buzz to get this bad idea Curbstomped... and fast.

     

    Because i can.
    I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
    Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  • maplestonemaplestone Member UncommonPosts: 3,099
    Originally posted by NetSage

    Why do you think cable and satillite cost so much?

    I've got rabbit ears.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775

    Of course it is possible. The question is whether it is good enough to survive.

    I think you can sell content like access to dungeons/characters (the LOL model) without selling advantages.

  • simmihisimmihi Member UncommonPosts: 709
    There are lots of ideas with potential which i feel were not exploited as they should. One of them would be in-game advertising. The other, something similar to Diablo 3's RMAH. Both of them with good implementations.
  • faxnadufaxnadu Member UncommonPosts: 940

    free to play with cash shop selling cosmetics , mounts and if housing then housing items stuff like that. it survives nicely.

    dont need to sell exp boosts or anything that kinda of advantage stuff.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by simmihi
    There are lots of ideas with potential which i feel were not exploited as they should. One of them would be in-game advertising. The other, something similar to Diablo 3's RMAH. Both of them with good implementations.

    RMAH works pretty well. Someone has to earn the advantage in game before it can be sold. However, i doubt that can support a full game, since Blizz is getting only a small percentage of the spending.

     

  • simmihisimmihi Member UncommonPosts: 709
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by simmihi
    There are lots of ideas with potential which i feel were not exploited as they should. One of them would be in-game advertising. The other, something similar to Diablo 3's RMAH. Both of them with good implementations.

    RMAH works pretty well. Someone has to earn the advantage in game before it can be sold. However, i doubt that can support a full game, since Blizz is getting only a small percentage of the spending.

     

    Yea, but that's in a game where gear drops like popcorn. In a 30min session, I vendor (for gold) 2-3 bags of rares, that's like 80 items. Extremely abundant drops = anyone could get very good gear for cheap = only extra-rares sell.

    In a game with a "normal" approach, the company could just increase the fee to something like 25% of the trade + something fixed. I'm thinking in a market for mounts, special pets / companions, gear upgrade modules (items which make your gear 1% better, but you need to already have the gear) and such.

  • Adam1902Adam1902 Member UncommonPosts: 537

    Path of Exile have done so.

    They don't sell "advantages" in the way of XP boost, drop rate etc. Rather, they sell stash tabs, non-combat pets, item effects... When they get the trading system in, I believe you're going to have to pay for an item to keep your shop open too.

    I love GGG.

    _________
    Currently playing: Black Desert Korea (Waiting for EU)

    Always hating on instances in MMOs! Open worlds, open PvP, territory control and housing please. More persistence, more fun.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by simmihi
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by simmihi
    There are lots of ideas with potential which i feel were not exploited as they should. One of them would be in-game advertising. The other, something similar to Diablo 3's RMAH. Both of them with good implementations.

    RMAH works pretty well. Someone has to earn the advantage in game before it can be sold. However, i doubt that can support a full game, since Blizz is getting only a small percentage of the spending.

     

    Yea, but that's in a game where gear drops like popcorn. In a 30min session, I vendor (for gold) 2-3 bags of rares, that's like 80 items. Extremely abundant drops = anyone could get very good gear for cheap = only extra-rares sell.

    In a game with a "normal" approach, the company could just increase the fee to something like 25% of the trade + something fixed. I'm thinking in a market for mounts, special pets / companions, gear upgrade modules (items which make your gear 1% better, but you need to already have the gear) and such.

    It just redefine what "good" means. Sure everyone has millions, and gold gear is more common than common. But how often do you get a Echo Fury about 1100 dps? I got exactly ONE and i played since released. It will always be like that. Only the extreme rare will sell because the price is always related to the labor to get it. If you can get an item in 5 min of playing, no one is going to pay a cent for it.

    I suppose even if blizz charge more, the $200+ items are still going to sell. But again, those are rare, and i doubt there are that many transaction. That is the problem with selling stuff earned in game. Either it is easilly earned and worth nothing, or it is very very hard to earn, and there will be few sales.

    That is why selling advantage works better. If an advantage cannot be gained in game and cannot be traded, the company can both charge a high price and sell a lot (since many player will want one). There is no supply constraint (like in the case of RMAH).

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504

    F2P?  Absolutely.  Plenty of examples like TF2 and LoL.

    F2P MMORPG?  A little shakier, as there aren't really games being built along the "pay for playstyles" model, and XP potions alone, while probably the #1 source of income for those games and not really an advantage, doesn't seem like it will quite be enough.

    Here's hoping players strongly support the fun games which only sell playstyle/vanity, and avoid supporting pay2win games.  The more that happens, the more LoL-style games will exist which focus on creating an incredibly fun core experience supported by playstyle unlock purchases.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,825

    Once you have a cash shop its not if it will have P2W elements, it is just when. Some may have staved of P2W elements for years but they all go P2W in the end.

    The classic these days is starting out with transport buffs, teleport scrolls and the like. These help you get to top level quicker. Trying to make out not getting to top level more quickly is not P2W is a joke.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601

    Well I guess that all depends on what you consider an advanatage and/or a p2w item now doesn't it.

    Personally I don't think xp potions are an advantage or p2w in a leveling game with an end-game.without ffa pvp.

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • VolkonVolkon Member UncommonPosts: 3,748

    It should be possible, it really should. However the allure of the almight greenback tends to throw many of the F2P titles down the dark road of "How can I get money NOW" instead of "How can I keep people playing for the long haul, thus spending money as a result".

     

    Look at two recent B2P titles and you'll see what's looking like the new trend... Guild Wars 2 and Defiance. Neither of their cash shops have anything remotely resembling a pay 2 win element, and with flattened leveling curves the boosts they add are convenience items and not necessities to compete. They stores are, however, full of fluff. People like fluff. Different vehicle skins in Defiance, outfits and the like in GW2... people that like your game will pay for these things because they want them, not because they need them. It may take a few more successes (potential success with Defiance) and a few more failures, but I think this B2P model of the cosmetic, power-free shop will take hold as it continues to show the marketplace that this is where the real money lies. Quality game + Fun fluff = $$

    Oderint, dum metuant.

  • PurutzilPurutzil Member UncommonPosts: 3,048

    and make profit? Probably not possible. I think the most you can get away with is Pay 2 Get Ahead in terms of xp boosts, outside that though people just won't buy cosmetics that much , or they buy 1 and thats all.

     

    I think the best bet to cut out the 'advantage' would be having freemium, though technically thats doing the same thing or you could consider it not really F2P. 

     

    @Volk: ... he directly said against boosts like I know for sure GW2 has and defiance I'm sure will have, so they have "Pay 2 Get Ahead" that he is talking against.

  • VolkonVolkon Member UncommonPosts: 3,748
    Originally posted by Purutzil

     

    @Volk: ... he directly said against boosts like I know for sure GW2 has and defiance I'm sure will have, so they have "Pay 2 Get Ahead" that he is talking against.

    I know, but to be fair to at least GW2, the boosts are so minor and the leveling curve so flattened that you don't really get ahead by buying them. A boost that gives you +10 exp per kill when you get most experience from event completion... it's really a waste of money. They're more something someone might get if they have a few gems lying around after getting what they really wanted. Plus, you get them from the Black Lion Chests as well. (I can't say how beneficial they are in Defiance yet, didn't really look at them.)

    Oderint, dum metuant.

  • BurntvetBurntvet Member RarePosts: 3,465
    I have never played a F2P game worth my time. At this point, I don't mind paying for something good, so just because something is "free" does not mean anything to me. "F2P" is simply a marketing gimmick, nothing more. And for me personally, at this point, it is one that has utterly failed.
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130

    Every game is pay to win. 

     

    If the game has a cash shop, you can buy stuff that might improve your performance in-game. However, any game that has an economic system offers the ability for players to get the best gear available through stuff like player shops or auction houses. There's really no difference. Generally speaking, people can get the same stuff in-game, through trade, as they could by just dropping some coin in the cash shop. It's just the cash shop makes it easier. 

     

    Why on Earth would anyone want to make a game where they couldn't or wouldn't convince people to spend money? I'd be really interested to know if there is even a market for that. If so, then maybe there should be a community project put together where game devs can donate their time to make a true F2P game. At the end of the day, people need to get paid. If they weren't paying the fry slingers at McDonald's, do you really think they'd be there? What if your work asked you to come in and work for free from now on? 

     

    As far as I'm concerned, I wish they'd offer me more options to pay to win. I'd pay for a 2000x Exp boost in SWTOR so I only had to ever do the side quests once. Story quests, I'm good with. That's why I'm there. That's all good. If I have to be violated by Darth Lachris one more time, though, I'm probably going to break down and cry. 

    Crazkanuk

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  • jpnzjpnz Member Posts: 3,529

    I'd say TF2 is a brilliant game that is F2P and doesn't sell advantages.

    LoL, PS2 and EQ2 are also pretty good when it comes to F2P. 

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Scot

    Once you have a cash shop its not if it will have P2W elements, it is just when. Some may have staved of P2W elements for years but they all go P2W in the end.

    The classic these days is starting out with transport buffs, teleport scrolls and the like. These help you get to top level quicker. Trying to make out not getting to top level more quickly is not P2W is a joke.

    There is no "winning" in PvE. And getting to max level faster ... is what it is. I suppose you can call it an advantage. But unless you are betting with a friend to see who gets to max level first .. i don't see how that is "winning" anything.

    Secondly, it is only fair that someone who is subsidizing your game gets some advantage. It is also fair that your money is as good as his.

    If it breaks immersion and makes the game non-game for you, it is fine. But i don't see a problem. I play lots of F2P games with what you will call P2W cash shops. It does not detract me from having fun.

  • psiicpsiic Member RarePosts: 1,640

    Sure..

     

    1) Conquer a technologically advanced nation with pre-exsisting game studios

     

    2) Impose slavery in violation of UN resolututions

     

    3) Capture and force some game designers into slavery

     

    4) Force your slaves to code your game

     

    5) Capture more slaves because the first batch starved to death because you did not spend money to feed them

     

    6) Rinse and repeat until your game is finished

     

    Totally boggles the mind how ignorant and selfish this new generation of " gimme" gamers has become. 

     

    I just can not believe we have now managed to raise a whole generation of young people who now truly feel they are 

     

    entitled to anything and everything they DEMAND and should not have to do anything for it at all.

     

    I am really starting to see the whole picture and it really scares the hell outta me.

  • WraithoneWraithone Member RarePosts: 3,806
    Originally posted by psiic

    Sure..

     

    1) Conquer a technologically advanced nation with pre-exsisting game studios

     

    2) Impose slavery in violation of UN resolututions

     

    3) Capture and force some game designers into slavery

     

    4) Force your slaves to code your game

     

    5) Capture more slaves because the first batch starved to death because you did not spend money to feed them

     

    6) Rinse and repeat until your game is finished

     

    Totally boggles the mind how ignorant and selfish this new generation of " gimme" gamers has become. 

     

    I just can not believe we have now managed to raise a whole generation of young people who now truly feel they are 

     

    entitled to anything and everything they DEMAND and should not have to do anything for it at all.

     

    I am really starting to see the whole picture and it really scares the hell outta me.

    As well it should to any thoughtful, rational individual.  We have now had several generations of people with that entitlement complex.  As gaming has become more main stream, it more clearly reflects a cross section of that general population.  You do know why its called the main stream? Because its too shallow to be a river... ^^

    F2P is simply another business model. If you don't like it, don't play games that use it. Its really just that simple.

    "If you can't kill it, don't make it mad."
  • jtcgsjtcgs Member Posts: 1,777

    Subscriptions are P2W, paying a company to win at screwing me over.

    2 options here folks, lets look at them.

    I just bought a game, here is more money so I can keep playing it.

    Or.

    I have this game, I would really like this ___. Here is some money for ___.

    Those used to be screwed over will ALWAYS try to find a way to make the other way look worse because they dont want to have to admit to themselves that they are bent over and grabbing their ankles and instead want to make the other look worse so they can relax, and it wont hurt as much.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    Option 3, pay a sub that costs less than most any other expenditure for the month and get more for it since my time is worth money too. I like the bending over comment though, classy.

    In the end you decide what your time is worth. I don't now about you but my free time is worth waaaay more than my normal time, far beyond 15.00/month. Get just as much in return? Depends on the game I guess. Have Aion fans gotten many updates in the last six months? I know WoW/Rift/EvE players have.

    Why? Well that's the core point in all of this. Speaking from a players standpoint F2P is the future, viva revolution! But.... word coming back is not so promising for this making the MMOs we love to play for free so much. Huge leap in players since the F2P boom but the revenue hasn't "clicked" yet. Time will tell.
  • SiugSiug Member UncommonPosts: 1,257
    In my opinion f2p is the worst thing that has happened to MMO's because they tend to be either generic and cheap garbage or plain p2w with permanent stat boosts and such from cash shop. Their concept is to make your gameplay as miserable as possible without forking out money for things that you get in p2p or b2p games. So in my opinion it's not possible to make an enjoyable f2p game without nickle and diming you every moment.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Aelious


    Why? Well that's the core point in all of this. Speaking from a players standpoint F2P is the future, viva revolution! But.... word coming back is not so promising for this making the MMOs we love to play for free so much. Huge leap in players since the F2P boom but the revenue hasn't "clicked" yet. Time will tell.

    It has. F2P is making already as much money as P2P in the market place. The trend is that it is going to gain market share. It is already 50-50 and F2P will have higher revenue share by the end of this year.

     

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