After playing Tera, it is hard for me to go back to tab/target. Tera is a actual action combat. Games like GW2 and even ESO are a mix of tab/target and action combat. I prefer the "true action combat" as it is less spammy and has more consequences for mistakes.
I do think there is a time and place for tab/target games. But I prefer active combat. However, I prefer WoW's system compared to GW2. The GW2 system seemed all over the place, it had no specific goal and tried to do couple of things at once.
It might have been a camera or clunky control issue but I hated it. If their controls was as responsive as WoW and it didn't feel as laggy I would like their combat style after Tera combat. Hopefull ESO fixes it.
it's not a zerg but it looks like a zerg to many people
you're spamming abilities in those games, you're not in contact with other players are you
in tab raids, especially older ones people were chatting and controlling the mob, we had none of that jumping and "blue eggs turn red, RUN" crap in our games, some raids had scripts but it wasn't like WoW, WoW made every raid into a script raid, in vindictus every mob is running a script and people are button mashing
this is an older EQ raid from Demi, do you see many people moving around doing jumping jacks and spamming their abilities, they're control raids https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpEyMeslXfU
to people used to EQ, and I assum FFXI too the current MMO simply look like console games, they're fast paced, very little control or CC, very little preparation, very lenient on mistakes and extremely button skill based
action games also give players unlimited tries, no recovery time, no reason to fear penalties for mistakes, very little time loss, that's why they are called zerg sometimes, because that's what's going on, you make a mistake and rush back in without the punishemnt
I love that you're JUST.....NOT...GETTING...IT.
You're heralding exactly the point of the criticism and exactly what makes old EQ and other examples you're using horrible. Stop using Vindictus as an example for anything, it sucks..it's just as bad as EQ is now. Don't get me wrong, I LOVED EQ back in the time because I didn't have other great options, but given the option of a COPLETELY STATIC encounter or an encounter that can be a little different each time...guess which one I'll pick.
Your previous example only further proved my point, you thought any raid in EQ was hard, that's cute, and I'm sorry that your guild was that bad. The fact remains that EQ and MMOs at that time were all about static encounters, mez/stun the area and dps down one target. There was very little management of anything but your own resources. Yes...occasionally you had to dps and, OH NOES, count to 12 before re-applying the CC of your choice. You *might* have to watch one mob because they might break cc early. I still fail to see the challenge of taking 50 people into a raid and BARELY controlling 3-5 mobs.
Adapt and get better, or just re-install UO and revel in how much you loved it all before Trammel.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
Originally posted by Waterlily Nasty, calm down. WoW and new players to the genre can enjoy what they like, play action games if that's your thing, who cares.
Yeah...guess you're so old school it took you forever to find a simple site like MMORPG.com....really?
If you want to try and validate yourself based on time spent playing games how about we do it based on when we joined this site? Yeah...I thought not.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
Oh comon gtfo with action combat, this is MMO industry. If i wanted that i'd go back to console games aka C.O.D.
More and more it's comments like these which make me realize there's a very large segment of MMORPG gamers who are entirely clueless about gaming outside of MMORPGs.
It's like they are completely unaware of how many action-heavy PC games have existed over the years, so anything which isn't Vanilla MMORPG is "console" to them.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Although FFXIV was very limited content wise and had it's fair share of problems with combat mechanics, the content that it did have did get me some of that feel of tactical situations and forethought in FFXI. So I would recommend that if they don't completely fuck up the second launch aswell even though it won't feature many other aspects of old style MMOs.
At the end of the day you can bicker all day about which style of MMO is better pre of post WoW. The fact is that there are major differences and the two do have various plus and minus points. The only thing that annoys me is that the only attempt to rekindle and bring up to date the pre-wow experience has been Vanguard, which really just felt like a relic rather than an carry on. This despite the fact that FFXI and EQ still have a solid player base, FFXI made square more than FF7 for christ sakes, yet everyone wants to chase WoW.
With sandbox fans seeing a ton of great sandbox games coming out, when are fans of pre WoW PvE games going to see anything?
Action only, tab targeting is the past, action mean positioning, strafe, and tactic, an active combat not a passive buttonfest like tab targeting (aka 1,2,3,4,5 + tab, repeat).
There's enough tab-target games on the market to last a player a lifetime and it's about time for devs to up their game and give players high octane, tactical, twitch MMO's ala DF1.
Action combat all the way. I mean look at Kingdoms of Amalur, it would be a terrible game if you replaced the action combat with 5 hotbars and tab-target.
Action combat makes otherwise bad games into passable games. Too bad there hasn't been a good AAA MMORPG that has gotten the other elements right.
Speaking of console action, I do feel more comfortable with a controler, would be nice if a solid action MMORPG was on console, with solid voice chat. If they really focused on controler use, they could implement different button interfaces than the typical 2 mouse operation which currently restrains most action PC games. It's not like PC gamers can't get controlers, an Xbox wired controler goes right into the computer.
Shooter action feels comfortable on the computer, but Melee action tends to seem simplified when your trying to force your control into the limited division between the keyboard and mouse. I know a lot of companies want to make products for whats most common as far as hardware... but if it's a game worth playing, it's a game worth investing in, I'm really not concerned about anything in between.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.
Originally posted by Ardu Action combat, TERA changed everything. New MMOs are going for action combat cause is more enjoyable.
A game that went f2p within months is going to change everything..
TERA did raise the bar for bullshit in marketing with its "first true action combat mmorpg" slogan.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
but given the option of a COPLETELY STATIC encounter or an encounter that can be a little different each time...guess which one I'll pick.
this has absolutely nothing to do with the tab target/action combat debate. Mobs in TERA are every bit as static as those in EQ. Just because you have to move more often doesnt mean its not just recognizing/anticipating what the mob is about to do
In fact, action gaming is usually based around static mob AIs. Games like God of War you know what ability sets your enemies have. You know how to defeat them. Its just execution.
EQ is one of the few games that had oh shit moments where the unexpected could happen (my previous example of a bad pull, which could happen when a spell gets resisted or an unexpected mob spawns). Its kind of funny that a lot of action gamers hate 'dice rolls', when they are such a key factor to unpredictability.
And yes, all MMORPGs need to turn up the unpredictability. Things are too safe across the board.
Originally posted by Darkcrystal Most games with Tab targetting have no skilled involved , were action it does, this is the funny pwrt.. I perfer TWITCH /action, any day, Tab target is mindless... Takes no skill at all....
Tab Targeting games take "character skill" combined with player knowledge and strategy. Action combat games take "player skill" with reaction to visual clues and mouse movement control.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Darkcrystal Most games with Tab targetting have no skilled involved , were action it does, this is the funny pwrt.. I perfer TWITCH /action, any day, Tab target is mindless... Takes no skill at all....
Tab Targeting games take "character skill" combined with player knowledge and strategy. Action combat games take "player skill" with reaction to visual clues and mouse movement control.
Originally posted by CalmOceans If I wanted action combat I would play a console game with a controller where I could mash buttons.Tab targeting allows for tactics like crowd control and splitting techniques that simply aren't possible during action zergfests.
Exactly. Action combat is for FPS (pong), not RPG (dungeons and dragons).
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
that video just proves anything with a large group of people looks like a mass zerg of people spamming abilities... Action MMOs are new and need to evolve but over time they will develop harder are more strategic encounters. But imagine if they did that right off the bat, hardly anyone would play as they would complain the game is to hard and move to something else.. developers will see in time they can make action games with more complex encounters but for now baby steps.
Also on your edit gw2 already fixed this where if you die you can't just spawn and run back in the fight you either need to hope someone finishes the fight ot rez you or the party wipes and you start over(for dungeons at least.. still an issue in WvW).
Come on, Aerowyn. I usually respect your posts but I cant believe you are resorting to the 'action combat is so hard people cant handle it" line of thinking. Its not like people are quitting TERA or GW2 because they find them difficult.
I get that people may trash TERA for the lock in place, and people are saying things like GW2 is just button mashing. but then people say that tab targetting is hitting 1-2-3-4. It doesnt matter how new or old the system is, people that dont like it will over simplify it to try and prove their point.
People generally dont dislike action combat because its too hard, they just find it annoying or not the right fit for the genre.
i can name 5 of my own friends who did just that.. they all wen't back to wow and rift because they found gw2 to hard for them.. their words not mine.. not all MMO players play action games or are used to dodge mechanics and such. To some it is a steep learning curve, especially for those used to slower paced MMOs and not action savy people. This was very evident when gw2 first released and running through AC with many pugs for the first time... Running Rifts first dungeon was a breeze even for a group of newbies.. for gw2 it was a pain in the ass till people learned the combat then it became much easier of course.
I can also attest to this (and not just with GW2, but with TERA as well). Though, unlike Aerowyn's friends, mine usually won't admit it was 'too difficult' they find other ways of essencially saying the same thing. In GW2 it was 'mobs hit way too hard, this game is broken' or 'combat in this game is way too chaotic, I miss the old threat system where things were more organized'. In TERA it was 'you take way too much damage in this game, tired of chugging health potions' or 'you have to dodge way too much in this game, i don't like this'.
This isn't to say that most players can't handle the difficulty (which is untrue). It's more that a lot of players don't want to. Heck, a while ago I was showing some of my friends how to play Warrior in GW2. They couldn't believe I was surviving dungeons as a glass cannon greatsword warrior. I showed them what I did, explained why it worked, and gave tips on dodging (like the 2 second rule). Their response was a combination of 'can you just give me a spec where i can take a lot of hits and don't have to dodge?' and 'eF this, I'm going back to WoW, sick of this dodging BS'.
A large part of it, though I hate to say, is people are now used to dumping all the responsibility on the game. A lot of people have gotten used to games telling them that they're badass for no real accomplishment. They don't like it when games make them feel weak or crappy, because they don't want to have to spend a lot of time improving their skill lvl.
Maybe it's the fact that traditionally and preferentially, RPGs were about the skills of the character and not the player. It was the whole point of having stats and gear and character skills / spells.
Comments
After playing Tera, it is hard for me to go back to tab/target. Tera is a actual action combat. Games like GW2 and even ESO are a mix of tab/target and action combat. I prefer the "true action combat" as it is less spammy and has more consequences for mistakes.
I do think there is a time and place for tab/target games. But I prefer active combat. However, I prefer WoW's system compared to GW2. The GW2 system seemed all over the place, it had no specific goal and tried to do couple of things at once.
It might have been a camera or clunky control issue but I hated it. If their controls was as responsive as WoW and it didn't feel as laggy I would like their combat style after Tera combat. Hopefull ESO fixes it.
I love that you're JUST.....NOT...GETTING...IT.
You're heralding exactly the point of the criticism and exactly what makes old EQ and other examples you're using horrible. Stop using Vindictus as an example for anything, it sucks..it's just as bad as EQ is now. Don't get me wrong, I LOVED EQ back in the time because I didn't have other great options, but given the option of a COPLETELY STATIC encounter or an encounter that can be a little different each time...guess which one I'll pick.
Your previous example only further proved my point, you thought any raid in EQ was hard, that's cute, and I'm sorry that your guild was that bad. The fact remains that EQ and MMOs at that time were all about static encounters, mez/stun the area and dps down one target. There was very little management of anything but your own resources. Yes...occasionally you had to dps and, OH NOES, count to 12 before re-applying the CC of your choice. You *might* have to watch one mob because they might break cc early. I still fail to see the challenge of taking 50 people into a raid and BARELY controlling 3-5 mobs.
Adapt and get better, or just re-install UO and revel in how much you loved it all before Trammel.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
Yeah...guess you're so old school it took you forever to find a simple site like MMORPG.com....really?
If you want to try and validate yourself based on time spent playing games how about we do it based on when we joined this site? Yeah...I thought not.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
More and more it's comments like these which make me realize there's a very large segment of MMORPG gamers who are entirely clueless about gaming outside of MMORPGs.
It's like they are completely unaware of how many action-heavy PC games have existed over the years, so anything which isn't Vanilla MMORPG is "console" to them.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Although FFXIV was very limited content wise and had it's fair share of problems with combat mechanics, the content that it did have did get me some of that feel of tactical situations and forethought in FFXI. So I would recommend that if they don't completely fuck up the second launch aswell even though it won't feature many other aspects of old style MMOs.
At the end of the day you can bicker all day about which style of MMO is better pre of post WoW. The fact is that there are major differences and the two do have various plus and minus points. The only thing that annoys me is that the only attempt to rekindle and bring up to date the pre-wow experience has been Vanguard, which really just felt like a relic rather than an carry on. This despite the fact that FFXI and EQ still have a solid player base, FFXI made square more than FF7 for christ sakes, yet everyone wants to chase WoW.
With sandbox fans seeing a ton of great sandbox games coming out, when are fans of pre WoW PvE games going to see anything?
For me I like action combat systems similar to
Mortal Online
Darkfall
Two very different types of action combat but both good in their own way.
I dont like the Tera style action combat where you get rooted to the spot every time you want to attack it just feels stupid..
I also dont mind some tag target games.
Action only, tab targeting is the past, action mean positioning, strafe, and tactic, an active combat not a passive buttonfest like tab targeting (aka 1,2,3,4,5 + tab, repeat).
Action combat all the way. I mean look at Kingdoms of Amalur, it would be a terrible game if you replaced the action combat with 5 hotbars and tab-target.
Action combat makes otherwise bad games into passable games. Too bad there hasn't been a good AAA MMORPG that has gotten the other elements right.
Speaking of console action, I do feel more comfortable with a controler, would be nice if a solid action MMORPG was on console, with solid voice chat. If they really focused on controler use, they could implement different button interfaces than the typical 2 mouse operation which currently restrains most action PC games. It's not like PC gamers can't get controlers, an Xbox wired controler goes right into the computer.
Shooter action feels comfortable on the computer, but Melee action tends to seem simplified when your trying to force your control into the limited division between the keyboard and mouse. I know a lot of companies want to make products for whats most common as far as hardware... but if it's a game worth playing, it's a game worth investing in, I'm really not concerned about anything in between.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.
I agree with you a hundred per cent!
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
this has absolutely nothing to do with the tab target/action combat debate. Mobs in TERA are every bit as static as those in EQ. Just because you have to move more often doesnt mean its not just recognizing/anticipating what the mob is about to do
In fact, action gaming is usually based around static mob AIs. Games like God of War you know what ability sets your enemies have. You know how to defeat them. Its just execution.
EQ is one of the few games that had oh shit moments where the unexpected could happen (my previous example of a bad pull, which could happen when a spell gets resisted or an unexpected mob spawns). Its kind of funny that a lot of action gamers hate 'dice rolls', when they are such a key factor to unpredictability.
And yes, all MMORPGs need to turn up the unpredictability. Things are too safe across the board.
What...did you ever play tera?
And the ridiculousness continues....
Kool beans.
I answer "show me"
OP failed to specify if the poll was for MMORPG, MMOFPS, MMORTS, MMOMOBA, all of which have different targeting requirements.
Not "really" trying to stir up a shit storm, but this little bit of semantics is very imporotant.
*slowly backs out of thread*
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Truth.
I can agree with that.
hmm ... Tera is third person .. it is not even first person.
Wow lmao....so what. I aim and shoot, just as action combat mmos liike tera.
Exactly. Action combat is for FPS (pong), not RPG (dungeons and dragons).
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Maybe it's the fact that traditionally and preferentially, RPGs were about the skills of the character and not the player. It was the whole point of having stats and gear and character skills / spells.