It also takes very little imagination to come up with a lore explanation that doesn't restrict the game in so many ways
But lore takes a back seat to mechanics (and should!) as you so clearly accepted with the numerous mindblowing inconsistancies within the games and the universe itself.
See, we agree ^^ But as I said before, with some of the compromises I am ok with, with some I think they went too far from the original flavour of TES.
Well, that's a very subjective thing after all, isn't it? I will argue though that the quality of writing and the general depth of the TES games have suffered since Morrowind. It still has a soul for me, a general feeling that only belongs to Tamriel.
But it is not subjective. You are trying to hide "what I like about Tes" behind some absurd idea in order to garner sympathy for what you want. Just as I have said throughout the forum, are you really going to lament on about the "soul" of Final Fantasy? Mario? Star Wars? Star Trek? *Insert beloved Ip here*? These things do not have souls. And coperations are not people.
Hm, first of all: I do not hide anything. I have made very clear what I think about TESO and what I like or do not like. And there is no hidden agenda here except that I wish to express my disappointment with some of the design choices they made.
And about the soul of a game...what I mean by that is the things I associate with a game world and also the things that give me the most enjoyment when playing these games. It is by its very nature subjective because it all depends on me and my perception.
Unless you want to tell me that my personal perception is wrong and only yours is right
Such as? Which are the holy TES thresholds?
I already have tried to explain it a few times,but let me do it once more: cultural diversity which also makes a game world more lively and more interesting. Can't have that in a rigid 3 races each faction setup.
Who are you to shove that down the creators throats when they want to take this particular peice of the Ip in a new direction? I mean you threw a shit fit over Redguard too right? Since you know it did not include much of that "culteral diversity" and "freedom" you are going on about.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
It also takes very little imagination to come up with a lore explanation that doesn't restrict the game in so many ways
But lore takes a back seat to mechanics (and should!) as you so clearly accepted with the numerous mindblowing inconsistancies within the games and the universe itself.
See, we agree ^^ But as I said before, with some of the compromises I am ok with, with some I think they went too far from the original flavour of TES.
What? That does not even make sense! You just went on for 2 pages complaining that "the soul has been killed" because of 3 faction warfare. You came into this complaining about the enitre BASIS for the game, which mechanics need to stem from.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
Well, that's a very subjective thing after all, isn't it? I will argue though that the quality of writing and the general depth of the TES games have suffered since Morrowind. It still has a soul for me, a general feeling that only belongs to Tamriel.
But it is not subjective. You are trying to hide "what I like about Tes" behind some absurd idea in order to garner sympathy for what you want. Just as I have said throughout the forum, are you really going to lament on about the "soul" of Final Fantasy? Mario? Star Wars? Star Trek? *Insert beloved Ip here*? These things do not have souls. And coperations are not people.
Hm, first of all: I do not hide anything. I have made very clear what I think about TESO and what I like or do not like. And there is no hidden agenda here except that I wish to express my disappointment with some of the design choices they made.
And about the soul of a game...what I mean by that is the things I associate with a game world and also the things that give me the most enjoyment when playing these games. It is by its very nature subjective because it all depends on me and my perception.
Unless you want to tell me that my personal perception is wrong and only yours is right
Such as? Which are the holy TES thresholds?
I already have tried to explain it a few times,but let me do it once more: cultural diversity which also makes a game world more lively and more interesting. Can't have that in a rigid 3 races each faction setup.
Who are you to shove that down the creators throats when they want to take this particular peice of the Ip in a new direction? I mean you threw a shit fit over Redguard too right? Since you know it did not include much of that "culteral diversity" and "freedom" you are going on about.
They are the person deciding on whether or not they will purchase the game and discussing their opinion about the direction they took in a forum. I'd say that they and many others are saying that they do not agree with the creators vision. Are you implying that your total and utter agreement with their vision is more valid in some way?
It also takes very little imagination to come up with a lore explanation that doesn't restrict the game in so many ways
But lore takes a back seat to mechanics (and should!) as you so clearly accepted with the numerous mindblowing inconsistancies within the games and the universe itself.
See, we agree ^^ But as I said before, with some of the compromises I am ok with, with some I think they went too far from the original flavour of TES.
What? That does not even make sense! You just went on for 2 pages complaining that "the soul has been killed" because of 3 faction warfare. You came into this complaining about the enitre BASIS for the game, which mechanics need to stem from.
Hm, I kinda get the feeling there is some serious misunderstanding going on here. And you trying to read hidden agendas into me stating my opinion isn't exactly helping the issue. For the last time: I just wanted to express my disappointment with the way they handled their AvA setting. Not that they use it as a core mechanic. I just think they could have written it in a way that would make a lot mor epeople happy than there currently are
I already have tried to explain it a few times,but let me do it once more: cultural diversity which also makes a game world more lively and more interesting. Can't have that in a rigid 3 races each faction setup.
That's what you would like us to believe you're saying... and even there, you could be totally wrong. In every TES game you have ever played, there was only ever one non-NPC in that world: you. What is it that makes you think that each area won't have NPCs from the other races around giving you this "cultural diversity?" It's only the player characters, you, plural, who will be of the alliance races.
But what I'm really hearing from you, particularly when you blame PVP for "killing the TES soul" and other such nonsense is this: You wish that the TES MMO had been a PVE game with all those unsavory PVPers nicely segregated off in their own Battlegrounds...just like WOW and all the other PVE games. They went the other way. Many of us like that. You don't.
Everything else you're saying is just filler fluff to attempt to give your position a moral high ground it doesn't have.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Hm, I kinda get the feeling there is some serious misunderstanding going on here. And you trying to read hidden agendas into me stating my opinion isn't exactly helping the issue. For the last time: I just wanted to express my disappointment with the way they handled their AvA setting. Not that they use it as a core mechanic. I just think they could have written it in a way that would make a lot mor epeople happy than there currently are
Nope, no hidden agenda. Your very statements in this thread are now contradictory though. No other game that has attempted this sort of gameplay has succeeded. Going back to the well so to speak I view as nothing but a good thing in this regard. Games, like diamonds, need some rough edges, its what gives them shine. Overpolish is whats going to harm this game, and that is exactly what is happening.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
I already have tried to explain it a few times,but let me do it once more: cultural diversity which also makes a game world more lively and more interesting. Can't have that in a rigid 3 races each faction setup.
That's what you would like us to believe you're saying... and even there, you could be totally wrong. In every TES game you have ever played, there was only ever one non-NPC in that world: you. What is it that makes you think that each area won't have NPCs from the other races around giving you this "cultural diversity?" It's only the player characters, you, plural, who will be of the alliance races.
But what I'm really hearing from you, particularly when you blame PVP for "killing the TES soul" and other such nonsense is this: You wish that the TES MMO had been a PVE game with all those unsavory PVPers nicely segregated off in their own Battlegrounds...just like WOW and all the other PVE games. They went the other way. Many of us like that. You don't.
Everything else you're saying is just filler fluff to attempt to give your position a moral high ground it doesn't have.
Oh my, there is this conspiracy stuff again. Please...don't make assumptions about me when you don't know me at all. Have you seen me read anything into your or other's posts? No? That's because I figured they are your opinions and I accept that. Wish you would do the same
And you are right, I don't know yet if there aren't the other races present in those zones. If they are, I will be very happy, because for me, personally, hat cultural diversity is what makes a TES game fun and interesting.
And for the PvE vs PvP "argument": Isn't it kinda funny that you already have such segregation in the form of Cyrodiil? My issue is not with PvP at all. In fact, I am planning to do that most of the time. It's just that unlike in DAoC where I felt there was a good explanation and setting for the 3 factions, they kinda failed to do that here. Feels too artificial and forced imo.
I already have tried to explain it a few times,but let me do it once more: cultural diversity which also makes a game world more lively and more interesting. Can't have that in a rigid 3 races each faction setup.
That's what you would like us to believe you're saying... and even there, you could be totally wrong. In every TES game you have ever played, there was only ever one non-NPC in that world: you. What is it that makes you think that each area won't have NPCs from the other races around giving you this "cultural diversity?" It's only the player characters, you, plural, who will be of the alliance races.
But what I'm really hearing from you, particularly when you blame PVP for "killing the TES soul" and other such nonsense is this: You wish that the TES MMO had been a PVE game with all those unsavory PVPers nicely segregated off in their own Battlegrounds...just like WOW and all the other PVE games. They went the other way. Many of us like that. You don't.
Everything else you're saying is just filler fluff to attempt to give your position a moral high ground it doesn't have.
Oh my, there is this conspiracy stuff again. Please...don't make assumptions about me when you don't know me at all. Have you seen me read anything into your or other's posts? No? That's because I figured they are your opinions and I accept that. Wish you would do the same
And you are right, I don't know yet if there aren't the other races present in those zones. If they are, I will be very happy, because for me, personally, hat cultural diversity is what makes a TES game fun and interesting.
And for the PvE vs PvP "argument": Isn't it kinda funny that you already have such segregation in the form of Cyrodiil? My issue is not with PvP at all. In fact, I am planning to do that most of the time. It's just that unlike in DAoC where I felt there was a good explanation and setting for the 3 factions, they kinda failed to do that here. Feels too artificial and forced imo.
That being said: See you on the battlefield
The "explanation" in DAoC was invented specifically for that game because no single player version preceded it. They could have done anything. As it was, they took many liberties with the Arthurian legends but then, so has everyone since the times of Geoffrey of Monmouth.
The only difference here is that this MMO is based on a pre-existing IP. As a long-time fan of TES, I have no issues whatsoever with how they're doing it and incorpoarting it into the TES lore... a lore which is not static and has changed with each new single player TES release. This time we have 9 races forming 3 alliances at war. I don't see that any more or less contrived than any of the previous lore additions.
Of course there will be NPCs from the other races in all the provinces. You may not find them in the usual places though (think dungeons and internment camps.)
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Of course there will be NPCs from the other races in all the provinces. You may not find them in the usual places though (think dungeons and internment camps.)
If that is the case then I have no problems at all. If some of them could also act as quest givers so you don't just have to kill everyone just because he is of race XYZ, then I 'd be even more happy. Maybe I am too pessimistic when it comes to the skills of their writing team but then in the last two TES games my faith was a bit shaken by the rather bland and boring quests. We will see I guess. I am willing to give this a try and hope for the best.
Oh my, there is this conspiracy stuff again. Please...don't make assumptions about me when you don't know me at all. Have you seen me read anything into your or other's posts? No? That's because I figured they are your opinions and I accept that. Wish you would do the same
No, he makes a very valid point. People routinely say what they think they should want, or what they think others want to hear, rather than what they actually believe, often times without even realizing it. There is a ton of literature in this regard.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
Oh my, there is this conspiracy stuff again. Please...don't make assumptions about me when you don't know me at all. Have you seen me read anything into your or other's posts? No? That's because I figured they are your opinions and I accept that. Wish you would do the same
No, he makes a very valid point. People routinely say what they think they should want, or what they think others want to hear, rather than what they actually believe, often times without even realizing it. There is a ton of literature in this regard.
Well, Jim, I guess that leaves you with only 2 choices. You either believe that what I write is also what I think/believe, or you don't. Your choice
Well, Jim, I guess that leaves you with only 2 choices. You either believe that what I write is also what I think/believe, or you don't. Your choice
I believe you firmly believe what you are saying. I also believe that its unlikely you will actually play that way, and even if you do there are 5 others that will no matter what you say. Its the very same reason why developers play by numbers instead of listening to what the "community" is stating. You look at this, and many other forums, about how much people throw absolute shit fits about p2w, yet its beem shown repeatedly to increase sales, and rarely actually drive players away. In fact many of those who are the staunchest detractors of it are usually some of the most prolific in its use. And that is just a single example, that is repeated ad nauseum across a number of other areas. Like the supposed "bump" needed in difficulty from the hardcore.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
Don'y take any notice of 'Captain America' - he doesn't seem to be able to post unless he's calling someone, somewhere 'stupid', or some variant of it...
.... as long as they aren't agreeing with him of course...
I personally think your post was a little too poetical in style for these brute-swarmed forums - but you made a good point nevetheless.
Zenimax have thrown too much of the 'soul' of TES out with the dishwater.
They seem to have lacked significant appreciation that a great many people really enjoy playing TES because of it's 'soul'.
Games are about more than mechanics - they are a form of escapism, and escapism requires to one extent or another - immersion, suspension of disbelief and emotional buy-in to be successful.
Anyone claiming otherwise has fallen off the left hand side of the IQ bell-curve...
To those predictably trying to redefne the meanng of my post - here it is again.
My statement was that games are more than mechanics and as escapism, neeed immersion etc. and emotional buy in to be successful. Anyone claiming otherwise is an idiot.
The last point is self-evident.
Point out ONE person who claimed otherwise if you want to credibly claim I insulted anyone.
Better still - prove my point wrong in conclusively demonstrate who I was addressing.
I would bet real money you can't - and by the way, failing to do so would entirely invalidate the your point.
It's easy to type any old crap online - much harder to prove yourself. And yes - that WAS aimed at you...
... this is the last time I bother to engage with you vocal few - it's clearly a wasted effort. It would appear that your tunnel vision and one track agenda blind you (perhaps by choice) to other points of view. So by all means knock yourselves out without my further reiterative input keeping my thread current - I'll enjoy the irony...
A word of advice. The three people debating with you are past-masters of jumping on the slightest weakness in your prose and twisting the meaning to suit their own points of view.
Points they all agree on, and a position they prove time and time again that they feel gives them the imperative to ram it down pro-TES-lore & 'game experience' peoples throats.
You are entirely wasting your time explaining and re-explaning your position to them, or the validity of it.
They CHOOSE to post that they don't 'get it' or that your opinion is misguided, wrong, or whatever phraseology they use in each instance.
Don't waste your time. Go quiet, and they will jump on somene else who is pro-TES in the same way you are - someone still bothering to engage wth them.
I know you find to hard to understand - but they either don't understand that what they value is compatible with what they want - or they do understand and they just want to be contrary.
Take your pick, and ignore them... I will be from now on.
Don'y take any notice of 'Captain America' - he doesn't seem to be able to post unless he's calling someone, somewhere 'stupid', or some variant of it...
.... as long as they aren't agreeing with him of course...
I personally think your post was a little too poetical in style for these brute-swarmed forums - but you made a good point nevetheless.
Zenimax have thrown too much of the 'soul' of TES out with the dishwater.
They seem to have lacked significant appreciation that a great many people really enjoy playing TES because of it's 'soul'.
Games are about more than mechanics - they are a form of escapism, and escapism requires to one extent or another - immersion, suspension of disbelief and emotional buy-in to be successful.
Anyone claiming otherwise has fallen off the left hand side of the IQ bell-curve...
To those predictably trying to redefne the meanng of my post - here it is again.
My statement was that games are more than mechanics and as escapism, neeed immersion etc. and emotional buy in to be successful. Anyone claiming otherwise is an idiot.
The last point is self-evident.
Point out ONE person who claimed otherwise if you want to credibly claim I insulted anyone.
Better still - prove my point wrong in conclusively demonstrate who I was addressing.
I would bet real money you can't - and by the way, failing to do so would entirely invalidate the your point.
It's easy to type any old crap online - much harder to prove yourself. And yes - that WAS aimed at you...
... this is the last time I bother to engage with you vocal few - it's clearly a wasted effort. It would appear that your tunnel vision and one track agenda blind you (perhaps by choice) to other points of view. So by all means knock yourselves out without my further reiterative input keeping my thread current - I'll enjoy the irony...
Then why not just say that and leave the "idiot's, IQ comments and general forum PVP tone out of it?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Don'y take any notice of 'Captain America' - he doesn't seem to be able to post unless he's calling someone, somewhere 'stupid', or some variant of it...
.... as long as they aren't agreeing with him of course...
I personally think your post was a little too poetical in style for these brute-swarmed forums - but you made a good point nevetheless.
Zenimax have thrown too much of the 'soul' of TES out with the dishwater.
They seem to have lacked significant appreciation that a great many people really enjoy playing TES because of it's 'soul'.
Games are about more than mechanics - they are a form of escapism, and escapism requires to one extent or another - immersion, suspension of disbelief and emotional buy-in to be successful.
Anyone claiming otherwise has fallen off the left hand side of the IQ bell-curve...
To those predictably trying to redefne the meanng of my post - here it is again.
My statement was that games are more than mechanics and as escapism, neeed immersion etc. and emotional buy in to be successful. Anyone claiming otherwise is an idiot.
The last point is self-evident.
Point out ONE person who claimed otherwise if you want to credibly claim I insulted anyone.
Better still - prove my point wrong in conclusively demonstrate who I was addressing.
I would bet real money you can't - and by the way, failing to do so would entirely invalidate the your point.
It's easy to type any old crap online - much harder to prove yourself. And yes - that WAS aimed at you...
... this is the last time I bother to engage with you vocal few - it's clearly a wasted effort. It would appear that your tunnel vision and one track agenda blind you (perhaps by choice) to other points of view. So by all means knock yourselves out without my further reiterative input keeping my thread current - I'll enjoy the irony...
Then why not just say that and leave the "idiot's, IQ comments and general forum PVP tone out of it?
He can't help himself. He seems to feel entitled to pre-insult anyone who might not agree with his dogmatic ideas. He doesn't even realize it's his self-righteous condescending tone that attracts the negativity from the "vocal few."
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
OP, I think TESO is having an identity crisis as a game right now but not specifically for the reasons you cite. The fact that a group of former DAOC developers are sticking to ideas they implemented into that title because they genuinely belive it makes for a successful game isn’t a surprise. You could argue they skinned TESO over their tried and true felt ideas rather than taking TES series and creating an MMO from it and strike enough truth to stick. It is what it is and has been a surprisingly consistent criticism from every game site and every forum poster.
The problem is that from “outside” it looks like they are over compensating from the negative backlash from TES fans (which I think really caught them off guard) and trying to change direction on some core concepts to satisfy them rather than sticking to their guns. This will lead to issues, dilute the finally product, and ultimately satisfy no one. The upcoming Neverwinter (due to PWI forcing a change of development course a year or two ago) is a great example of what happens when you go off course in this fashion.
It is exemplified in recent announcements from an attempt to add first person combat, cross faction chat, exploration of opposing faction zones and other such appeasement ideas for TES fans that work squarely against, indeed dilute and harm, the focus of their game: Good AvA. They can’t satisfy everyone and need to stick to a clear development plan that plays to their game’s strength to be good.
Outside of an elder scrolls skin, good AvA is all they have as a promising selling point. Good AvA isn’t what people want or really expect from an Elder Scrolls game but again, it is what it is and what they chose to offer up. Other games have better character customization, exploration, questing, and dungeons if perhaps a less polished AI and graphics... That sounds so wrong to be written about any elder scrolls title, lol.
The thing that really bothers me is reading through the originally planned features on the fan FAQ site for the game that collected developer comments. There were going to be more classes and several other things that it looks like have been cut now. Indications are they may not even reach their end of March Beta goal. With all the feature waffling I won’t be surprised if the game is delayed until next year. I was already killed personally by the lack of a Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood story and questing path at launch...
A TES game with NO thieves guild and dark brothers a launch? Who was smoking pot in the office to gloss over this kind of let down for series fans? Indeed man, I sense the identity crisis if not the same one you do.
This game IS going to suffer an identity crisis. The second Raids are in, all the casual/diehard Elder Scrolls fans are going to freak out.
Zenimax is already proving they are taking what the "community" wants heart to heart -- But where? If theyre taking advice from THIS forum on what to do with their game, I fear for their future as 99% of people hear wouldnt be able to make a successful game. At the basic level it sounds great "Oh theyre listening to us! Awesome!" But most peoples opinions are in a biased manner. One persons wants in a game might turn off 10 other people.
SWTOR had a huge identity crisis -- Am I playing a single player game but just paying monthly for it? It's lack of end-game content and REASON TO GROUP was a big problem. Giving the player the option to group isnt enough -- A lot of people play for effeciency or for "immersion" which shelters them away from people (Not to mention this game making sure you cant see the other faction during the world except for dungeons/Cyrodill) The same thing will happen in ESO -- Unless there is big incentive to group up for quests, a majority wont because they just want to play alone or its more effecient to quest alone. Not to mention you have to do the main story by yourself, so you cant actually see the main story with a friend, you'd both be doing it alone and could chat about it while its happening though. Similar to how in WoW you dont actually group quest if youre playing with a friend, you both quest alone and just talk.
OP, I think TESO is having an identity crisis as a game right now but not specifically for the reasons you cite. The fact that a group of former DAOC developers are sticking to ideas they implemented into that title because they genuinely belive it makes for a successful game isn’t a surprise. You could argue they skinned TESO over their tried and true felt ideas rather than taking TES series and creating an MMO from it and strike enough truth to stick. It is what it is and has been a surprisingly consistent criticism from every game site and every forum poster.
The problem is that from “outside” it looks like they are over compensating from the negative backlash from TES fans (which I think really caught them off guard) and trying to change direction on some core concepts to satisfy them rather than sticking to their guns. This will lead to issues, dilute the finally product, and ultimately satisfy no one. The upcoming Neverwinter (due to PWI forcing a change of development course a year or two ago) is a great example of what happens when you go off course in this fashion.
It is exemplified in recent announcements from an attempt to add first person combat, cross faction chat, exploration of opposing faction zones and other such appeasement ideas for TES fans that work squarely against, indeed dilute and harm, the focus of their game: Good AvA. They can’t satisfy everyone and need to stick to a clear development plan that plays to their game’s strength to be good.
Outside of an elder scrolls skin, good AvA is all they have as a promising selling point. Good AvA isn’t what people want or really expect from an Elder Scrolls game but again, it is what it is and what they chose to offer up. Other games have better character customization, exploration, questing, and dungeons if perhaps a less polished AI and graphics... That sounds so wrong to be written about any elder scrolls title, lol.
The thing that really bothers me is reading through the originally planned features on the fan FAQ site for the game that collected developer comments. There were going to be more classes and several other things that it looks like have been cut now. Indications are they may not even reach their end of March Beta goal. With all the feature waffling I won’t be surprised if the game is delayed until next year. I was already killed personally by the lack of a Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood story and questing path at launch...
A TES game with NO thieves guild and dark brothers a launch? Who was smoking pot in the office to gloss over this kind of let down for series fans? Indeed man, I sense the identity crisis if not the same one you do.
A lot of them were smoking pot not to realise these things.
Even a modicum of market research on 'what makes TES so successful' would have had the issues raised center stage.
They could then have proceeded to mesh the DAoC-like elements they want to put in (which I have never argued isn't good btw) in a sympathetic way.
They didn't - but as I have said elsewhere, they have made very intelligently crafted changes (as proposed anyway) and shown the doomsayers they can change things if people are unhappy.
Unhappy about the game that is - not one of the 'usual suspects' cyberstalking those of us who have the 'nerve' to speak up for what the TES part of the game should have in spirit at least...
This game IS going to suffer an identity crisis. The second Raids are in, all the casual/diehard Elder Scrolls fans are going to freak out.
Zenimax is already proving they are taking what the "community" wants heart to heart -- But where? If theyre taking advice from THIS forum on what to do with their game, I fear for their future as 99% of people hear wouldnt be able to make a successful game. At the basic level it sounds great "Oh theyre listening to us! Awesome!" But most peoples opinions are in a biased manner. One persons wants in a game might turn off 10 other people.
SWTOR had a huge identity crisis -- Am I playing a single player game but just paying monthly for it? It's lack of end-game content and REASON TO GROUP was a big problem. Giving the player the option to group isnt enough -- A lot of people play for effeciency or for "immersion" which shelters them away from people (Not to mention this game making sure you cant see the other faction during the world except for dungeons/Cyrodill) The same thing will happen in ESO -- Unless there is big incentive to group up for quests, a majority wont because they just want to play alone or its more effecient to quest alone. Not to mention you have to do the main story by yourself, so you cant actually see the main story with a friend, you'd both be doing it alone and could chat about it while its happening though. Similar to how in WoW you dont actually group quest if youre playing with a friend, you both quest alone and just talk.
That maybe so - but as a TES fan, and a PvP, solo/small group PvE and Raiding fan too, I personally don't see the issue.
There are a lot of MMO-style elements which fit just fine alongside the game world, lore, the feel of it etc. Being overly upset about the reduction in single player experience is no less valid in one way, but I would argue is a necessary compromise to bring in other players.
How could it not be?
If, after the changes proposed, they compromise between MMO and single player tropes well enough, the game will be well worth playing I think.
Originally posted by walltar "TESO is not a true successor" Oh fuck ... this again. It is not successor at all ... there will by proper TES game done by bethesda. This is MMO set in TES universe with MMO mechanics. It is done by another company, by another people. Was wow true successor of Warcraft? Because last i chesked i did not see any basebuilding in there.
Originally posted by walltar "TESO is not a true successor" Oh fuck ... this again. It is not successor at all ... there will by proper TES game done by bethesda. This is MMO set in TES universe with MMO mechanics. It is done by another company, by another people. Was wow true successor of Warcraft? Because last i chesked i did not see any basebuilding in there.
This
Ah this again...
Of the various meanings of 'successor' are - 'one who inherits the possessions of' or 'offshoot'.
Are you really saying that The Elder Scrolls Online hasn't inherited anything from TheElder Scrolls, or that an MMORPG cannot be an offshoot of a sngle playerRPGset in the same world?
I'd be amazed if you could support it with something tangible...
@Caliburn101 Thanks for the advice regarding certain commentators here. I think I can handle it though, been through a lot worse stuff on that infamous thread on the SWTOR forums. I like discussing and exchanging views, so sometimes I will engage with very agressive people just to see if it is an issue of miscommunication or willful ignorance.
Back on topic now: I heard someone mention AvA is their big and probably only selling point. Well, imo they can have it and made it fit nicely within TES lore and also work to the strengths of this particular IP. I am still baffled why they didn't do it from the start. It would have been so simple.
As it is right now, from what I understand at least, is that PvE happens outside of Cyrodill and PvP or AvA is focused on Cyrodill only. If that is the case, why did they not make it open borders right from the start with co-op play between all races? Because, you know, co-op questing comes a lot easier to my mind when thinking of TES than war all over the place.
They even have a great setup for a good alliance/faction war in Cyrodill that could have fit very nicely with the Elder Scrolls theme. I was thinking of:
Molag Bal tries to pull Tamriel into Oblivion. There are 3 factions that all think they have the right approach to this threat and regard any approach other than their own as treachery or outright blasphemous, comparable to collaborating with Molag Bal himself.
The Aldmeri Dominion: The ancient and powerful Altmer and their allies, led by the young Queen Ayrenn, possess the knowledge and wisdom of centuries to challenge the daedric forces head on. They know the land, they listen to the voices in the wind and from beneath the earth, and they can hear the land scream in agony by the corrupted chains that pull at its flesh. Removing the Imperials from power and claiming the throne would allow them to coordinate the efforts against Molag Bal even better and ensure the salvation of all Tamriel.
The Daggerfall Covenant: High King Emeric, the charismatic Breton Merchant Lord uses his strong diplomatic ties and the vast trading empire he has established to send out experienced and hardened mercenary bands to obtain ancient relics of power buried in forgotten places or directly wrested from the claws of Molag Bal's servants. Having himself surrounded by Masters of the Arcane Arts he will then use these artifacts to drive the daedric forces out of Tamriel. By claiming the Ruby Throne he could command even more loyal soldiers to do his bidding and help save everyone from Oblivion.
The Ebonheart Pact: From the jagged peaks of Skyrim, land of ice and eternal winter, Jorunn the Skald King calls to arms all who choose to fight instead of hiding in the hope that the daedric threat will pass. This Nord is a man of few words, but he does not need them, for his purpose is clear: he will point his sword towards Cyrodill and his loyal companions will not rest until they have claimed the Ruby Throne and from there, with the united strength of all Tamriel, they will drive the sword even further until it rests deep in the heart of Oblivion.
See, wasn't that hard. Now you have no silly and illogical race lock and people can pick their preferred flavour when it comes to an agenda/philosophy/approach they like.
Molag Bal tries to pull Tamriel into Oblivion. There are 3 factions that all think they have the right approach to this threat and regard any approach other than their own as treachery or outright blasphemous, comparable to collaborating with Molag Bal himself.
The Aldmeri Dominion: The ancient and powerful Altmer and their allies, led by the young Queen Ayrenn, possess the knowledge and wisdom of centuries to challenge the daedric forces head on. They know the land, they listen to the voices in the wind and from beneath the earth, and they can hear the land scream in agony by the corrupted chains that pull at its flesh. Removing the Imperials from power and claiming the throne would allow them to coordinate the efforts against Molag Bal even better and ensure the salvation of all Tamriel.
The Daggerfall Covenant: High King Emeric, the charismatic Breton Merchant Lord uses his strong diplomatic ties and the vast trading empire he has established to send out experienced and hardened mercenary bands to obtain ancient relics of power buried in forgotten places or directly wrested from the claws of Molag Bal's servants. Having himself surrounded by Masters of the Arcane Arts he will then use these artifacts to drive the daedric forces out of Tamriel. By claiming the Ruby Throne he could command even more loyal soldiers to do his bidding and help save everyone from Oblivion.
The Ebonheart Pact: From the jagged peaks of Skyrim, land of ice and eternal winter, Jorunn the Skald King calls to arms all who choose to fight instead of hiding in the hope that the daedric threat will pass. This Nord is a man of few words, but he does not need them, for his purpose is clear: he will point his sword towards Cyrodill and his loyal companions will not rest until they have claimed the Ruby Throne and from there, with the united strength of all Tamriel, they will drive the sword even further until it rests deep in the heart of Oblivion.
See, wasn't that hard. Now you have no silly and illogical race lock and people can pick their preferred flavour when it comes to an agenda/philosophy/approach they like.
That's exactly what I was thinking. I wish they had originally made the factions more like 3 houses fighting rather than 3 unified factions. The war feels flat, races hardly got along with themselves much less the entire population of 2 other races.
There should've been conflict within the factions. For instance the Altmer Queen made many Bosmer and Khajiit friends in her travels, against the wishes of her people. The Breton Merchant Lord hired a Redguard army, captured Orcs and forced them to fight in exchange for land (or so they say). The Nord High King accepted a Dunmer General and angered his people.
The majority of their factions would be made up of their 'planned' races but it wouldn't take the choice away from the player. If I was playing a generic RvR MMO then I wouldn't mind faction locks but as a TES fan, this was not expected.
Comments
See, we agree ^^ But as I said before, with some of the compromises I am ok with, with some I think they went too far from the original flavour of TES.
Who are you to shove that down the creators throats when they want to take this particular peice of the Ip in a new direction? I mean you threw a shit fit over Redguard too right? Since you know it did not include much of that "culteral diversity" and "freedom" you are going on about.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
What? That does not even make sense! You just went on for 2 pages complaining that "the soul has been killed" because of 3 faction warfare. You came into this complaining about the enitre BASIS for the game, which mechanics need to stem from.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
They are the person deciding on whether or not they will purchase the game and discussing their opinion about the direction they took in a forum. I'd say that they and many others are saying that they do not agree with the creators vision. Are you implying that your total and utter agreement with their vision is more valid in some way?
Hm, I kinda get the feeling there is some serious misunderstanding going on here. And you trying to read hidden agendas into me stating my opinion isn't exactly helping the issue. For the last time: I just wanted to express my disappointment with the way they handled their AvA setting. Not that they use it as a core mechanic. I just think they could have written it in a way that would make a lot mor epeople happy than there currently are
That's what you would like us to believe you're saying... and even there, you could be totally wrong. In every TES game you have ever played, there was only ever one non-NPC in that world: you. What is it that makes you think that each area won't have NPCs from the other races around giving you this "cultural diversity?" It's only the player characters, you, plural, who will be of the alliance races.
But what I'm really hearing from you, particularly when you blame PVP for "killing the TES soul" and other such nonsense is this: You wish that the TES MMO had been a PVE game with all those unsavory PVPers nicely segregated off in their own Battlegrounds...just like WOW and all the other PVE games. They went the other way. Many of us like that. You don't.
Everything else you're saying is just filler fluff to attempt to give your position a moral high ground it doesn't have.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Nope, no hidden agenda. Your very statements in this thread are now contradictory though. No other game that has attempted this sort of gameplay has succeeded. Going back to the well so to speak I view as nothing but a good thing in this regard. Games, like diamonds, need some rough edges, its what gives them shine. Overpolish is whats going to harm this game, and that is exactly what is happening.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
Oh my, there is this conspiracy stuff again. Please...don't make assumptions about me when you don't know me at all. Have you seen me read anything into your or other's posts? No? That's because I figured they are your opinions and I accept that. Wish you would do the same
And you are right, I don't know yet if there aren't the other races present in those zones. If they are, I will be very happy, because for me, personally, hat cultural diversity is what makes a TES game fun and interesting.
And for the PvE vs PvP "argument": Isn't it kinda funny that you already have such segregation in the form of Cyrodiil? My issue is not with PvP at all. In fact, I am planning to do that most of the time. It's just that unlike in DAoC where I felt there was a good explanation and setting for the 3 factions, they kinda failed to do that here. Feels too artificial and forced imo.
That being said: See you on the battlefield
The "explanation" in DAoC was invented specifically for that game because no single player version preceded it. They could have done anything. As it was, they took many liberties with the Arthurian legends but then, so has everyone since the times of Geoffrey of Monmouth.
The only difference here is that this MMO is based on a pre-existing IP. As a long-time fan of TES, I have no issues whatsoever with how they're doing it and incorpoarting it into the TES lore... a lore which is not static and has changed with each new single player TES release. This time we have 9 races forming 3 alliances at war. I don't see that any more or less contrived than any of the previous lore additions.
Of course there will be NPCs from the other races in all the provinces. You may not find them in the usual places though
(think dungeons and internment camps.)
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Of course there will be NPCs from the other races in all the provinces. You may not find them in the usual places though
(think dungeons and internment camps.)
If that is the case then I have no problems at all. If some of them could also act as quest givers so you don't just have to kill everyone just because he is of race XYZ, then I 'd be even more happy. Maybe I am too pessimistic when it comes to the skills of their writing team but then in the last two TES games my faith was a bit shaken by the rather bland and boring quests. We will see I guess. I am willing to give this a try and hope for the best.
No, he makes a very valid point. People routinely say what they think they should want, or what they think others want to hear, rather than what they actually believe, often times without even realizing it. There is a ton of literature in this regard.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
Well, Jim, I guess that leaves you with only 2 choices. You either believe that what I write is also what I think/believe, or you don't. Your choice
I believe you firmly believe what you are saying. I also believe that its unlikely you will actually play that way, and even if you do there are 5 others that will no matter what you say. Its the very same reason why developers play by numbers instead of listening to what the "community" is stating. You look at this, and many other forums, about how much people throw absolute shit fits about p2w, yet its beem shown repeatedly to increase sales, and rarely actually drive players away. In fact many of those who are the staunchest detractors of it are usually some of the most prolific in its use. And that is just a single example, that is repeated ad nauseum across a number of other areas. Like the supposed "bump" needed in difficulty from the hardcore.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
To those predictably trying to redefne the meanng of my post - here it is again.
My statement was that games are more than mechanics and as escapism, neeed immersion etc. and emotional buy in to be successful. Anyone claiming otherwise is an idiot.
The last point is self-evident.
Point out ONE person who claimed otherwise if you want to credibly claim I insulted anyone.
Better still - prove my point wrong in conclusively demonstrate who I was addressing.
I would bet real money you can't - and by the way, failing to do so would entirely invalidate the your point.
It's easy to type any old crap online - much harder to prove yourself. And yes - that WAS aimed at you...
... this is the last time I bother to engage with you vocal few - it's clearly a wasted effort. It would appear that your tunnel vision and one track agenda blind you (perhaps by choice) to other points of view. So by all means knock yourselves out without my further reiterative input keeping my thread current - I'll enjoy the irony...
ANAKAMI,
A word of advice. The three people debating with you are past-masters of jumping on the slightest weakness in your prose and twisting the meaning to suit their own points of view.
Points they all agree on, and a position they prove time and time again that they feel gives them the imperative to ram it down pro-TES-lore & 'game experience' peoples throats.
You are entirely wasting your time explaining and re-explaning your position to them, or the validity of it.
They CHOOSE to post that they don't 'get it' or that your opinion is misguided, wrong, or whatever phraseology they use in each instance.
Don't waste your time. Go quiet, and they will jump on somene else who is pro-TES in the same way you are - someone still bothering to engage wth them.
I know you find to hard to understand - but they either don't understand that what they value is compatible with what they want - or they do understand and they just want to be contrary.
Take your pick, and ignore them... I will be from now on.
Then why not just say that and leave the "idiot's, IQ comments and general forum PVP tone out of it?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
He can't help himself. He seems to feel entitled to pre-insult anyone who might not agree with his dogmatic ideas. He doesn't even realize it's his self-righteous condescending tone that attracts the negativity from the "vocal few."
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
OP, I think TESO is having an identity crisis as a game right now but not specifically for the reasons you cite. The fact that a group of former DAOC developers are sticking to ideas they implemented into that title because they genuinely belive it makes for a successful game isn’t a surprise. You could argue they skinned TESO over their tried and true felt ideas rather than taking TES series and creating an MMO from it and strike enough truth to stick. It is what it is and has been a surprisingly consistent criticism from every game site and every forum poster.
The problem is that from “outside” it looks like they are over compensating from the negative backlash from TES fans (which I think really caught them off guard) and trying to change direction on some core concepts to satisfy them rather than sticking to their guns. This will lead to issues, dilute the finally product, and ultimately satisfy no one. The upcoming Neverwinter (due to PWI forcing a change of development course a year or two ago) is a great example of what happens when you go off course in this fashion.
It is exemplified in recent announcements from an attempt to add first person combat, cross faction chat, exploration of opposing faction zones and other such appeasement ideas for TES fans that work squarely against, indeed dilute and harm, the focus of their game: Good AvA. They can’t satisfy everyone and need to stick to a clear development plan that plays to their game’s strength to be good.
Outside of an elder scrolls skin, good AvA is all they have as a promising selling point. Good AvA isn’t what people want or really expect from an Elder Scrolls game but again, it is what it is and what they chose to offer up. Other games have better character customization, exploration, questing, and dungeons if perhaps a less polished AI and graphics... That sounds so wrong to be written about any elder scrolls title, lol.
The thing that really bothers me is reading through the originally planned features on the fan FAQ site for the game that collected developer comments. There were going to be more classes and several other things that it looks like have been cut now. Indications are they may not even reach their end of March Beta goal. With all the feature waffling I won’t be surprised if the game is delayed until next year. I was already killed personally by the lack of a Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood story and questing path at launch...
A TES game with NO thieves guild and dark brothers a launch? Who was smoking pot in the office to gloss over this kind of let down for series fans? Indeed man, I sense the identity crisis if not the same one you do.
This game IS going to suffer an identity crisis. The second Raids are in, all the casual/diehard Elder Scrolls fans are going to freak out.
Zenimax is already proving they are taking what the "community" wants heart to heart -- But where? If theyre taking advice from THIS forum on what to do with their game, I fear for their future as 99% of people hear wouldnt be able to make a successful game. At the basic level it sounds great "Oh theyre listening to us! Awesome!" But most peoples opinions are in a biased manner. One persons wants in a game might turn off 10 other people.
SWTOR had a huge identity crisis -- Am I playing a single player game but just paying monthly for it? It's lack of end-game content and REASON TO GROUP was a big problem. Giving the player the option to group isnt enough -- A lot of people play for effeciency or for "immersion" which shelters them away from people (Not to mention this game making sure you cant see the other faction during the world except for dungeons/Cyrodill) The same thing will happen in ESO -- Unless there is big incentive to group up for quests, a majority wont because they just want to play alone or its more effecient to quest alone. Not to mention you have to do the main story by yourself, so you cant actually see the main story with a friend, you'd both be doing it alone and could chat about it while its happening though. Similar to how in WoW you dont actually group quest if youre playing with a friend, you both quest alone and just talk.
A lot of them were smoking pot not to realise these things.
Even a modicum of market research on 'what makes TES so successful' would have had the issues raised center stage.
They could then have proceeded to mesh the DAoC-like elements they want to put in (which I have never argued isn't good btw) in a sympathetic way.
They didn't - but as I have said elsewhere, they have made very intelligently crafted changes (as proposed anyway) and shown the doomsayers they can change things if people are unhappy.
Unhappy about the game that is - not one of the 'usual suspects' cyberstalking those of us who have the 'nerve' to speak up for what the TES part of the game should have in spirit at least...
Thanks for bringing the thread back to the point.
That maybe so - but as a TES fan, and a PvP, solo/small group PvE and Raiding fan too, I personally don't see the issue.
There are a lot of MMO-style elements which fit just fine alongside the game world, lore, the feel of it etc. Being overly upset about the reduction in single player experience is no less valid in one way, but I would argue is a necessary compromise to bring in other players.
How could it not be?
If, after the changes proposed, they compromise between MMO and single player tropes well enough, the game will be well worth playing I think.
This
Ah this again...
Of the various meanings of 'successor' are - 'one who inherits the possessions of' or 'offshoot'.
Are you really saying that The Elder Scrolls Online hasn't inherited anything from The Elder Scrolls, or that an MMORPG cannot be an offshoot of a sngle player RPG set in the same world?
I'd be amazed if you could support it with something tangible...
@Caliburn101 Thanks for the advice regarding certain commentators here. I think I can handle it though, been through a lot worse stuff on that infamous thread on the SWTOR forums. I like discussing and exchanging views, so sometimes I will engage with very agressive people just to see if it is an issue of miscommunication or willful ignorance.
Back on topic now: I heard someone mention AvA is their big and probably only selling point. Well, imo they can have it and made it fit nicely within TES lore and also work to the strengths of this particular IP. I am still baffled why they didn't do it from the start. It would have been so simple.
As it is right now, from what I understand at least, is that PvE happens outside of Cyrodill and PvP or AvA is focused on Cyrodill only. If that is the case, why did they not make it open borders right from the start with co-op play between all races? Because, you know, co-op questing comes a lot easier to my mind when thinking of TES than war all over the place.
They even have a great setup for a good alliance/faction war in Cyrodill that could have fit very nicely with the Elder Scrolls theme. I was thinking of:
Molag Bal tries to pull Tamriel into Oblivion. There are 3 factions that all think they have the right approach to this threat and regard any approach other than their own as treachery or outright blasphemous, comparable to collaborating with Molag Bal himself.
The Aldmeri Dominion: The ancient and powerful Altmer and their allies, led by the young Queen Ayrenn, possess the knowledge and wisdom of centuries to challenge the daedric forces head on. They know the land, they listen to the voices in the wind and from beneath the earth, and they can hear the land scream in agony by the corrupted chains that pull at its flesh. Removing the Imperials from power and claiming the throne would allow them to coordinate the efforts against Molag Bal even better and ensure the salvation of all Tamriel.
The Daggerfall Covenant: High King Emeric, the charismatic Breton Merchant Lord uses his strong diplomatic ties and the vast trading empire he has established to send out experienced and hardened mercenary bands to obtain ancient relics of power buried in forgotten places or directly wrested from the claws of Molag Bal's servants. Having himself surrounded by Masters of the Arcane Arts he will then use these artifacts to drive the daedric forces out of Tamriel. By claiming the Ruby Throne he could command even more loyal soldiers to do his bidding and help save everyone from Oblivion.
The Ebonheart Pact: From the jagged peaks of Skyrim, land of ice and eternal winter, Jorunn the Skald King calls to arms all who choose to fight instead of hiding in the hope that the daedric threat will pass. This Nord is a man of few words, but he does not need them, for his purpose is clear: he will point his sword towards Cyrodill and his loyal companions will not rest until they have claimed the Ruby Throne and from there, with the united strength of all Tamriel, they will drive the sword even further until it rests deep in the heart of Oblivion.
See, wasn't that hard. Now you have no silly and illogical race lock and people can pick their preferred flavour when it comes to an agenda/philosophy/approach they like.
That's exactly what I was thinking. I wish they had originally made the factions more like 3 houses fighting rather than 3 unified factions. The war feels flat, races hardly got along with themselves much less the entire population of 2 other races.
There should've been conflict within the factions. For instance the Altmer Queen made many Bosmer and Khajiit friends in her travels, against the wishes of her people. The Breton Merchant Lord hired a Redguard army, captured Orcs and forced them to fight in exchange for land (or so they say). The Nord High King accepted a Dunmer General and angered his people.
The majority of their factions would be made up of their 'planned' races but it wouldn't take the choice away from the player. If I was playing a generic RvR MMO then I wouldn't mind faction locks but as a TES fan, this was not expected.