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Is it even possible to make an F2p without selling advatages?

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  • worldalphaworldalpha Milton, ONPosts: 403Member
    Originally posted by maplestone

    Advertising-supported.   I wouldn't want to play it, but it's a business model that worked for television.

    I tried that with our last beta, the earnings from ads is meager to say the least.

    Thanks,
    Mike
    Working on Social Strategy MMORTS (now Launched!) http://www.worldalpha.com

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member
    Originally posted by worldalpha
    Originally posted by maplestone

    Advertising-supported.   I wouldn't want to play it, but it's a business model that worked for television.

    I tried that with our last beta, the earnings from ads is meager to say the least.

    I guess the problem is that it's hard to use that gamer-attention more efficiently advertise anything other than your own cash-shop.

    For a while, I was wondering if the toy companies were going to get into MMOs as a promotional tool for their toy lines but I suppose the costs are far too large for it to be used as some sort of loss-leader.

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,863Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by gessekai332Is it possible to make an F2P where you dont result in ultimately granting a person an advantage?

    If people find worth their money and are spending on certain virtual items, why would you think of ways how not to sell those items?

    You make no sense.

  • NetSageNetSage Lake Geneva, WIPosts: 1,040Member Uncommon
    Yes,  personally I would buy cosmetic items just support great games.  If the game is truly great I'll spend the extra money.  A good example would be dota 2.  Only cosmetic items are bought.
  • NetSageNetSage Lake Geneva, WIPosts: 1,040Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by maplestone

    Advertising-supported.   I wouldn't want to play it, but it's a business model that worked for television.

    Not really true.  Why do you think cable and satillite cost so much?  It's because they pay huge amounts of money to the tv networks (even the local ones) to be able to broadcast their channels.  IMO it's a horrible example because they take money from advertising and then ask for more so you can see the ads :P.

  • RaysheRayshe London, ONPosts: 1,284Member

    TSW was going good. it was going REALLY good. Then the non subbed idea has brought in things like Cash for AP. This makes me very sad. Hopefully the people i talk to on the site can create enough of a negative buzz to get this bad idea Curbstomped... and fast.

     

    Because i can.
    I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
    Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member
    Originally posted by NetSage

    Why do you think cable and satillite cost so much?

    I've got rabbit ears.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Of course it is possible. The question is whether it is good enough to survive.

    I think you can sell content like access to dungeons/characters (the LOL model) without selling advantages.

  • simmihisimmihi -Posts: 613Member Uncommon
    There are lots of ideas with potential which i feel were not exploited as they should. One of them would be in-game advertising. The other, something similar to Diablo 3's RMAH. Both of them with good implementations.
  • faxnadufaxnadu HelsinkiPosts: 940Member Uncommon

    free to play with cash shop selling cosmetics , mounts and if housing then housing items stuff like that. it survives nicely.

    dont need to sell exp boosts or anything that kinda of advantage stuff.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by simmihi
    There are lots of ideas with potential which i feel were not exploited as they should. One of them would be in-game advertising. The other, something similar to Diablo 3's RMAH. Both of them with good implementations.

    RMAH works pretty well. Someone has to earn the advantage in game before it can be sold. However, i doubt that can support a full game, since Blizz is getting only a small percentage of the spending.

     

  • simmihisimmihi -Posts: 613Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by simmihi
    There are lots of ideas with potential which i feel were not exploited as they should. One of them would be in-game advertising. The other, something similar to Diablo 3's RMAH. Both of them with good implementations.

    RMAH works pretty well. Someone has to earn the advantage in game before it can be sold. However, i doubt that can support a full game, since Blizz is getting only a small percentage of the spending.

     

    Yea, but that's in a game where gear drops like popcorn. In a 30min session, I vendor (for gold) 2-3 bags of rares, that's like 80 items. Extremely abundant drops = anyone could get very good gear for cheap = only extra-rares sell.

    In a game with a "normal" approach, the company could just increase the fee to something like 25% of the trade + something fixed. I'm thinking in a market for mounts, special pets / companions, gear upgrade modules (items which make your gear 1% better, but you need to already have the gear) and such.

  • Adam1902Adam1902 Posts: 524Member Uncommon

    Path of Exile have done so.

    They don't sell "advantages" in the way of XP boost, drop rate etc. Rather, they sell stash tabs, non-combat pets, item effects... When they get the trading system in, I believe you're going to have to pay for an item to keep your shop open too.

    I love GGG.

    _________
    Currently in casual mode!
    Playing: Few FPS games.

    Watching: Albion Online: Summer alpha was great, but the game seems to be progressing towards heavy instancing.

    Always hating on instances in MMOs! Open worlds, open PvP, territory control and housing please. More persistence, more fun.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by simmihi
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by simmihi
    There are lots of ideas with potential which i feel were not exploited as they should. One of them would be in-game advertising. The other, something similar to Diablo 3's RMAH. Both of them with good implementations.

    RMAH works pretty well. Someone has to earn the advantage in game before it can be sold. However, i doubt that can support a full game, since Blizz is getting only a small percentage of the spending.

     

    Yea, but that's in a game where gear drops like popcorn. In a 30min session, I vendor (for gold) 2-3 bags of rares, that's like 80 items. Extremely abundant drops = anyone could get very good gear for cheap = only extra-rares sell.

    In a game with a "normal" approach, the company could just increase the fee to something like 25% of the trade + something fixed. I'm thinking in a market for mounts, special pets / companions, gear upgrade modules (items which make your gear 1% better, but you need to already have the gear) and such.

    It just redefine what "good" means. Sure everyone has millions, and gold gear is more common than common. But how often do you get a Echo Fury about 1100 dps? I got exactly ONE and i played since released. It will always be like that. Only the extreme rare will sell because the price is always related to the labor to get it. If you can get an item in 5 min of playing, no one is going to pay a cent for it.

    I suppose even if blizz charge more, the $200+ items are still going to sell. But again, those are rare, and i doubt there are that many transaction. That is the problem with selling stuff earned in game. Either it is easilly earned and worth nothing, or it is very very hard to earn, and there will be few sales.

    That is why selling advantage works better. If an advantage cannot be gained in game and cannot be traded, the company can both charge a high price and sell a lot (since many player will want one). There is no supply constraint (like in the case of RMAH).

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,719Member Uncommon

    F2P?  Absolutely.  Plenty of examples like TF2 and LoL.

    F2P MMORPG?  A little shakier, as there aren't really games being built along the "pay for playstyles" model, and XP potions alone, while probably the #1 source of income for those games and not really an advantage, doesn't seem like it will quite be enough.

    Here's hoping players strongly support the fun games which only sell playstyle/vanity, and avoid supporting pay2win games.  The more that happens, the more LoL-style games will exist which focus on creating an incredibly fun core experience supported by playstyle unlock purchases.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,762Member Uncommon

    Once you have a cash shop its not if it will have P2W elements, it is just when. Some may have staved of P2W elements for years but they all go P2W in the end.

    The classic these days is starting out with transport buffs, teleport scrolls and the like. These help you get to top level quicker. Trying to make out not getting to top level more quickly is not P2W is a joke.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon

    Well I guess that all depends on what you consider an advanatage and/or a p2w item now doesn't it.

    Personally I don't think xp potions are an advantage or p2w in a leveling game with an end-game.without ffa pvp.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member

    It should be possible, it really should. However the allure of the almight greenback tends to throw many of the F2P titles down the dark road of "How can I get money NOW" instead of "How can I keep people playing for the long haul, thus spending money as a result".

     

    Look at two recent B2P titles and you'll see what's looking like the new trend... Guild Wars 2 and Defiance. Neither of their cash shops have anything remotely resembling a pay 2 win element, and with flattened leveling curves the boosts they add are convenience items and not necessities to compete. They stores are, however, full of fluff. People like fluff. Different vehicle skins in Defiance, outfits and the like in GW2... people that like your game will pay for these things because they want them, not because they need them. It may take a few more successes (potential success with Defiance) and a few more failures, but I think this B2P model of the cosmetic, power-free shop will take hold as it continues to show the marketplace that this is where the real money lies. Quality game + Fun fluff = $$

    Oderint, dum metuant.
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  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,924Member Uncommon

    and make profit? Probably not possible. I think the most you can get away with is Pay 2 Get Ahead in terms of xp boosts, outside that though people just won't buy cosmetics that much , or they buy 1 and thats all.

     

    I think the best bet to cut out the 'advantage' would be having freemium, though technically thats doing the same thing or you could consider it not really F2P. 

     

    @Volk: ... he directly said against boosts like I know for sure GW2 has and defiance I'm sure will have, so they have "Pay 2 Get Ahead" that he is talking against.

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member
    Originally posted by Purutzil

     

    @Volk: ... he directly said against boosts like I know for sure GW2 has and defiance I'm sure will have, so they have "Pay 2 Get Ahead" that he is talking against.

    I know, but to be fair to at least GW2, the boosts are so minor and the leveling curve so flattened that you don't really get ahead by buying them. A boost that gives you +10 exp per kill when you get most experience from event completion... it's really a waste of money. They're more something someone might get if they have a few gems lying around after getting what they really wanted. Plus, you get them from the Black Lion Chests as well. (I can't say how beneficial they are in Defiance yet, didn't really look at them.)

    Oderint, dum metuant.
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  • BurntvetBurntvet Baltimore, MDPosts: 2,940Member Uncommon
    I have never played a F2P game worth my time. At this point, I don't mind paying for something good, so just because something is "free" does not mean anything to me. "F2P" is simply a marketing gimmick, nothing more. And for me personally, at this point, it is one that has utterly failed.
  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,205Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Axehilt

    F2P?  Absolutely.  Plenty of examples like TF2 and LoL.

    F2P MMORPG?  A little shakier, as there aren't really games being built along the "pay for playstyles" model, and XP potions alone, while probably the #1 source of income for those games and not really an advantage, doesn't seem like it will quite be enough.

    Here's hoping players strongly support the fun games which only sell playstyle/vanity, and avoid supporting pay2win games.  The more that happens, the more LoL-style games will exist which focus on creating an incredibly fun core experience supported by playstyle unlock purchases.

    I understand where you're coming from but that isn't what I find attractive to purchase in a cash shop.

    For one thing I'm sort of old school, or cut my teeth on older games, and I don't see cosmetics as any less valuable than gear.  Cosmetics used to be status items and the rest of cosmetic customization used to come with the game.  I do buy the occasional cosmetic, but overall not so much.

    If I spend money in a cash shop I want it to enhance my account and I want to feel like I got something worthwhile for my money.  I buy things like character slots, inventory space, and other unlocks.  I buy mounts for cosmetic and functional reasons.  I will occasionally buy item packs (like the Duty Officer packs in STO - I just bought about $20 worth last week) and things that are account wide.  I also sometimes buy enchantment success boosters, xp / gold/ drop boosters, and such.

    I haven't bought Zen for Dilly or purchased Gems through the GW2 store, but I would consider something like that as well.

    I don't buy items that are rented (30 day mounts) and I typically don't buy combat buffs or heal pots and the like.

    To me most all of it is pay to win since you're paying for something that you don't have to get through game play.  Even if it's just a cosmetic it still frees up time to do other things.  I don't really mind "pay to win" as long as it doesn't give a direct advantaage to success in an encounter (damage buffs for pvp, fast super healing potions for pvp).

    In all it depends on if the game is fun and how much I feel like I have to pay monthly in order to enjoy how I play.

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONPosts: 2,499Member Uncommon

    Every game is pay to win. 

     

    If the game has a cash shop, you can buy stuff that might improve your performance in-game. However, any game that has an economic system offers the ability for players to get the best gear available through stuff like player shops or auction houses. There's really no difference. Generally speaking, people can get the same stuff in-game, through trade, as they could by just dropping some coin in the cash shop. It's just the cash shop makes it easier. 

     

    Why on Earth would anyone want to make a game where they couldn't or wouldn't convince people to spend money? I'd be really interested to know if there is even a market for that. If so, then maybe there should be a community project put together where game devs can donate their time to make a true F2P game. At the end of the day, people need to get paid. If they weren't paying the fry slingers at McDonald's, do you really think they'd be there? What if your work asked you to come in and work for free from now on? 

     

    As far as I'm concerned, I wish they'd offer me more options to pay to win. I'd pay for a 2000x Exp boost in SWTOR so I only had to ever do the side quests once. Story quests, I'm good with. That's why I'm there. That's all good. If I have to be violated by Darth Lachris one more time, though, I'm probably going to break down and cry. 

    Crazkanuk

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  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member

    I'd say TF2 is a brilliant game that is F2P and doesn't sell advantages.

    LoL, PS2 and EQ2 are also pretty good when it comes to F2P. 

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Scot

    Once you have a cash shop its not if it will have P2W elements, it is just when. Some may have staved of P2W elements for years but they all go P2W in the end.

    The classic these days is starting out with transport buffs, teleport scrolls and the like. These help you get to top level quicker. Trying to make out not getting to top level more quickly is not P2W is a joke.

    There is no "winning" in PvE. And getting to max level faster ... is what it is. I suppose you can call it an advantage. But unless you are betting with a friend to see who gets to max level first .. i don't see how that is "winning" anything.

    Secondly, it is only fair that someone who is subsidizing your game gets some advantage. It is also fair that your money is as good as his.

    If it breaks immersion and makes the game non-game for you, it is fine. But i don't see a problem. I play lots of F2P games with what you will call P2W cash shops. It does not detract me from having fun.

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