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There are no raids... can you live with that?

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  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,455Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by scooter256
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Rhazmuz
    Originally posted by Tarkus-Black
    Thread is now MOOT, IGN screwed up (who knew), there is RAID content always was going to be.

    Source?

    Hate when people dont give a source :-P 

    Firor goes on to describe the game as potentially “the most socially connected MMO game ever.” The Elder Scrolls Online will offer the standard fare of raids and instanced dungeons (available in both group and heroic difficulty levels) but in addition ZeniMax is bringing back the tradition of public dungeons which haven’t been seen in an MMO for several years. These public dungeons will be shared content with no instancing.

     

    http://www.tentonhammer.com/elder-scrolls-online/previews/e3-2012

    Rofl... And then, 25 pages later... thanks scooter.

    I still think Matt is referring to raid-sized open-world Adventure Zone "raids" but maybe not.

    The good news: interest in this game has gone through the roof in the past week as evidenced by the lengthy threads on any subject.

    The bad? We need better reporting of what the devs are saying...better yet, clear official articles on their own website.

     

    EDIT: found the rest of what he said over at Tamriel Foundry: http://tamrielfoundry.com/2013/03/pax-day-one-recap/

    "The developers at ZeniMax would rather pit a group of players against a much larger force of threatening NPCs to emphasize that heroic feel which is latent throughout the Elder Scrolls series. While nothing explicit is confirmed, it does sound like adventure zones are definitely penciled in as post-launch content. Hopefully there is at least one such epic endgame PvE encounter in the original launch version of the game, but if not, I hope we can look forward to adventure zones shortly after launch as a good compromise for  players which crave large group PvE endgame. We should have a better opportunity to talk to Matt further tomorrow afternoon, so I’m hopeful that we can get more juicy details then!"

    So it does sound like the raids are the ones I mentioned a few pages up: Adventure Zone non-instanced raids.

    I wonder when we will get our first look at one? Does not sound like they are very far along in that part of development. 


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • hMJemhMJem Marysville, WAPosts: 465Member

    Matt already said at PAX East the invites to the closed beta isnt even close to starting. Kind of a shame. Wonder if they're waiting to get back from PAX to say it publicly, since they said end of March beta invites will go out. Unless they just expected it get to April and not say anything..

    "Cheat Code Central’s Jake Valentine got a chance to sit down with Matt Firor, the president of ZeniMax Online, at PAX East this afternoon. Firor is probably most well known for his work on Dark Age of Camelot, but his company is currently heading up the development for Elder Scrolls: Online.

    A few months ago, ZeniMax began allowing players to sign up for the title’s upcoming beta, but when asked about the timing, Firor indicated that the beta would not be launched in the near future. "It's a big game," he said. "So we want to take our time."

    Might be until 2014 before we see "raid" content if the game is falling behind schedule or needing more time

     

     

  • sodade21sodade21 athensPosts: 341Member Uncommon
    I can live with the traditional aproach of WoW Raids.. But i want to be able to group up with my friends (that might be more than 5 at the same time).. for doing quests/adventuring or doing instances... i think that mmos should give u the ability to group up with as many friends as u want.. not the typical 5 players per team.. and ofc not penalize them for doing so..
  • azarhalazarhal Somewhere, BCPosts: 761Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by hMJem

    Matt already said at PAX East the invites to the closed beta isnt even close to starting. Kind of a shame. Wonder if they're waiting to get back from PAX to say it publicly, since they said end of March beta invites will go out. Unless they just expected it get to April and not say anything..

    "Cheat Code Central’s Jake Valentine got a chance to sit down with Matt Firor, the president of ZeniMax Online, at PAX East this afternoon. Firor is probably most well known for his work on Dark Age of Camelot, but his company is currently heading up the development for Elder Scrolls: Online.

    A few months ago, ZeniMax began allowing players to sign up for the title’s upcoming beta, but when asked about the timing, Firor indicated that the beta would not be launched in the near future. "It's a big game," he said. "So we want to take our time."

    Might be until 2014 before we see "raid" content if the game is falling behind schedule or needing more time

    You know, I don't see why "it's a big game" have to do with the small focused beta tests ZOS is planning. I get the feeling that "Jake Valentine" asked about "open beta" or large scale beta and that isn't going to happen before Summer is over.

    Beside "beta" have already started, friends&family is already underway...

     

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,455Member Uncommon
    Better the game comes out later then launch without them IMO. Gamers tend to mass quit when they dont have enough elder game.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,257Member Uncommon
    wait what happen to that talk about open world dungeons?

    image

  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,119Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Progression raiding is one thing that I think holds back the themeparks of the genre.  If it has raids, then it's all about raiding.  All the other progression is secondary and second rate.  Either a game has raids and is about raiding or it doesn't have them at all.  I really hope they won't add progression raiding to the game.

    Why cant there be both?

    ....as seen from past games, raiders cannot stand the thought of other play styles / non-raiding content getting equitable rewards to raids.  For such a minority of players, they are incredibly noisy and quite frankly, hateful.

    image
  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Progression raiding is one thing that I think holds back the themeparks of the genre.  If it has raids, then it's all about raiding.  All the other progression is secondary and second rate.  Either a game has raids and is about raiding or it doesn't have them at all.  I really hope they won't add progression raiding to the game.

    Why cant there be both?

    ....as seen from past games, raiders cannot stand the thought of other play styles / non-raiding content getting equitable rewards to raids.  For such a minority of players, they are incredibly noisy and quite frankly, hateful.

    Its not the issue of playstyle, its the issue of effort. Also, don't bring in the "hateful" bs, every segment has there douchebags, I can link you some "i want the best gear by soloing" people who were beyond insane.

  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,119Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Progression raiding is one thing that I think holds back the themeparks of the genre.  If it has raids, then it's all about raiding.  All the other progression is secondary and second rate.  Either a game has raids and is about raiding or it doesn't have them at all.  I really hope they won't add progression raiding to the game.

    Why cant there be both?

    ....as seen from past games, raiders cannot stand the thought of other play styles / non-raiding content getting equitable rewards to raids.  For such a minority of players, they are incredibly noisy and quite frankly, hateful.

    Its not the issue of playstyle, its the issue of effort. Also, don't bring in the "hateful" bs, every segment has there douchebags, I can link you some "i want the best gear by soloing" people who were beyond insane.

    Of course playstyle is an issue, do you really think casuals aren't interested in progressing their characters too?  Yet, have you seen any end game that lets them progress wtihout raiding?  After a while, you get tired of just re-rolling once you get up high enough that the only option is to raid.

    image
  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by Vorthanion

    Of course playstyle is an issue, do you really think casuals aren't interested in progressing their characters too?  Yet, have you seen any end game that lets them progress wtihout raiding?  After a while, you get tired of just re-rolling once you get up high enough that the only option is to raid.

    So instead you want to be handed gear that in turn makes the raid encounters a joke? Anytime devs put it even behind long rep/token grinds (to discourage raiders, but still leaving it open to casuals) they just complain or quit anyway.

  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,119Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by Vorthanion

    Of course playstyle is an issue, do you really think casuals aren't interested in progressing their characters too?  Yet, have you seen any end game that lets them progress wtihout raiding?  After a while, you get tired of just re-rolling once you get up high enough that the only option is to raid.

    So instead you want to be handed gear that in turn makes the raid encounters a joke? Anytime devs put it even behind long rep/token grinds (to discourage raiders, but still leaving it open to casuals) they just complain or quit anyway.

    This is precisely why you can't have a mix of this type in an MMO.  You either cater to casuals or you don't.  I think this kind of crappy game design is a big part of the reason why so many MMOs are failing.  It isn't just about the combat, it's the way the games are designed to screw certain segments of the player base in order to cater to multiple  competing play styles.

    image
  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,119Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Livnthedream
    Originally posted by Vorthanion

    Of course playstyle is an issue, do you really think casuals aren't interested in progressing their characters too?  Yet, have you seen any end game that lets them progress wtihout raiding?  After a while, you get tired of just re-rolling once you get up high enough that the only option is to raid.

    So instead you want to be handed gear that in turn makes the raid encounters a joke? Anytime devs put it even behind long rep/token grinds (to discourage raiders, but still leaving it open to casuals) they just complain or quit anyway.

    They complain and quit due to the bait and swtich of the game design and rightly so.  There's nothing I hate more than an MMO that advertises itself as casual or casual friendly only to become hardcore midway through and I don't think I'm the only one that thinks that crap won't fly anymore.

    image
  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by Vorthanion

    This is precisely why you can't have a mix of this type in an MMO.  You either cater to casuals or you don't.  I think this kind of crappy game design is a big part of the reason why so many MMOs are failing.  It isn't just about the combat, it's the way the games are designed to screw certain segments of the player base in order to cater to multiple  competing play styles.

    I disagree. Mainly due to WoW. It honestly does a solid job of providing for both. I also find your disdain for raiders pretty hilarious when everything you accuse them of is exactly what you are doing. Whats more, many mmo's also do a solid job of it, Rift for example, though Swtor did also, and as much as they still want to complain so does TSW.

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,593Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Progression raiding is one thing that I think holds back the themeparks of the genre.  If it has raids, then it's all about raiding.  All the other progression is secondary and second rate.  Either a game has raids and is about raiding or it doesn't have them at all.  I really hope they won't add progression raiding to the game.

    Why cant there be both?

    ....as seen from past games, raiders cannot stand the thought of other play styles / non-raiding content getting equitable rewards to raids.  For such a minority of players, they are incredibly noisy and quite frankly, hateful.

    Exactly.  Anything anyone else gets is called a "welfare epic" by all too many of those clowns.  It doesn't matter what the system is, if its not a raid drop, its "welfare".  I doubt many of them even understand the term, let alone its proper application.

    Obsession with dps meters and gear score has corrupted what was once an enjoyable activity.  I fault the Devs as much as I do those who endlessly chase after the latest shiny purples.  Its their designs that aid and abet these types of obsessions, and exclusions.

    Given the time/talent and experience it takes to create this type of content, and the small percentage of a given player base that ever sees it, one wonders if its a good application of that time and talent.  But thats up to the Dev's to determine (shrug).

  • ShadanwolfShadanwolf Posts: 2,114Member Uncommon
    I just don't raid.
  • VarkingVarking Winston-Salem, NCPosts: 433Member
    AVA raids do not count?
  • hMJemhMJem Marysville, WAPosts: 465Member
    Originally posted by Wraithone
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Progression raiding is one thing that I think holds back the themeparks of the genre.  If it has raids, then it's all about raiding.  All the other progression is secondary and second rate.  Either a game has raids and is about raiding or it doesn't have them at all.  I really hope they won't add progression raiding to the game.

    Why cant there be both?

    ....as seen from past games, raiders cannot stand the thought of other play styles / non-raiding content getting equitable rewards to raids.  For such a minority of players, they are incredibly noisy and quite frankly, hateful.

    Exactly.  Anything anyone else gets is called a "welfare epic" by all too many of those clowns.  It doesn't matter what the system is, if its not a raid drop, its "welfare".  I doubt many of them even understand the term, let alone its proper application.

    Obsession with dps meters and gear score has corrupted what was once an enjoyable activity.  I fault the Devs as much as I do those who endlessly chase after the latest shiny purples.  Its their designs that aid and abet these types of obsessions, and exclusions.

    Given the time/talent and experience it takes to create this type of content, and the small percentage of a given player base that ever sees it, one wonders if its a good application of that time and talent.  But thats up to the Dev's to determine (shrug).

    It all depends what Zenimax wants. If 50,000 subscribers lifetime is their goal, they will get that. If they're trying to be the next big dog MMO, I don't think theyre going to succeed.

     

    There is nothing wrong with character progression. Yes, I'll have a blast doing all 3 factions quests. But I'll finish that in a month or two since I'm buying the game day 1. Bottom line is -- No one will consistently do World Bosses if theyre giving worse gear than crafting. The first few times it'll be fun, then there wont be a point too. Cyrodill will be fun for awhile, but the game isnt going to survive on that alone. But again, it all depends what Zenimax is really looking for. If they want to be the next big MMO, I dont think they'll succeed in that regard.

     

    If you're looking at reasons the two most successful MMORPG's of all time had their success -- WoW and Everquest -- It's because for 95% of people there was always a way to improve your character. If WoW was a game about "raiding" or used to be, then why did casuals play it? It isnt just because it has Blizzard's name on it or Warcraft. Majority of WoW players dont care about the story. Dont act like neither one didnt attract people with the "carrot on a stick" waving in front of you mentality -- People would group grind the same mob camp in Everquest for hours and not even find an upgrade, people would do Raids even if they didnt get an upgrade in WoW -- But atleast there was the chance you were getting an upgrade.

     

    My theory has always been: If you're not willing to put in the time, you don't deserve the best gear in the game. If Crafting isnt super easy, that's fine with me, although I did suggest it would be neat if some of ESO's hard dungeons (If any are hard) drop some of the mats to make the top crafting gear -- But again I know people are like "I dont like that, I want to be play the game by myself and still have access to the best gear in the game" even though they claim gear isnt an incentive for them to play.

  • ComafComaf Chicago, ILPosts: 1,154Member Common
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    So can you live with a MMO that has no raids? Or will that make ESO a pit stop for you before you run off to a new MMO that you and your guildies can really enjoy?

    Info comes from HERE!!!! : There are no raids, after all – "That's not Elder Scrolls," says Game Director Matt Firor – but there are four-man dungeons and three-faction open PvP with sieges in the beleaguered province of Cyrodiil.

    POSTED BY, Livnthedream: Link to more info on this topic HERE!!!!

    No raids means no endless gear progression pitfalls other than what I will assume will come from PvP - which means, you actually are challenged by real players vs Google available predicitable pve pixel strategies.

     

    Sign me up -

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  • hMJemhMJem Marysville, WAPosts: 465Member
    Originally posted by Comaf
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    So can you live with a MMO that has no raids? Or will that make ESO a pit stop for you before you run off to a new MMO that you and your guildies can really enjoy?

    Info comes from HERE!!!! : There are no raids, after all – "That's not Elder Scrolls," says Game Director Matt Firor – but there are four-man dungeons and three-faction open PvP with sieges in the beleaguered province of Cyrodiil.

    POSTED BY, Livnthedream: Link to more info on this topic HERE!!!!

    No raids means no endless gear progression pitfalls other than what I will assume will come from PvP - which means, you actually are challenged by real players vs Google available predicitable pve pixel strategies.

     

    Sign me up -

    Gear will still be a big factor in PvP -- Dont act like it wont be.

     

    In which case, it'll be a crafting grind. Then you'll cry that because you choose not to craft you're being placed at a dis-advantage.

     

    PvP isnt going to give gear. Crafting has already been said 100x by developers to give THE best gear in the game, and dungeons will give "good" gear that crafting can even improve on.

     

    You're going to play a game where crafting is the progression and everyone is doing that -- I'd rather fight stuff for the best gear than sit around crafting for the best gear.

     

    The most successful MMOs have done the "carrot on a stick" waving to keep you playing. If Zenimax doesnt care about being a big dog MMO, then theyre on the right track. If they wanted to make an MMO that is going to last 10 years like WoW or Everquest, they won't succeed.

     

    I wouldnt pay $15 a month play Skyrim.

  • TelondarielTelondariel Ottawa, ONPosts: 1,001Member
    Originally posted by Celcius

    I like how people claim they are missing a "large chunk" of people who play MMOs without raiding. This is simply not true at all. A ton of people who play MMOs don't even hit max level, let alone raid. Raiding has been the least popular part of every MMO since it's inception. Most people don't have the kind of time required for it.

    GW2 has over 3 million people playing it who knew there would not be raids available. This is based on US/EU alone so consider that GW2's population is probably as much as/ more then WoW's NA population and WoW has probably the highest percentage of raiders of any MMO. I would say that is a pretty good indication that people generally don't play MMOS for raids.

    Pretty much this.  People that raid will go to a game that caters to that aspect of gaming. 

     

    Raiding has never interested me, so I'm not phased at all by its exclusion in TESO.  There are other draws to the game for me, and I'm sure I will be quite content playing it when it launches.

     

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  • hMJemhMJem Marysville, WAPosts: 465Member
    Originally posted by Telondariel
    Originally posted by Celcius

    I like how people claim they are missing a "large chunk" of people who play MMOs without raiding. This is simply not true at all. A ton of people who play MMOs don't even hit max level, let alone raid. Raiding has been the least popular part of every MMO since it's inception. Most people don't have the kind of time required for it.

    GW2 has over 3 million people playing it who knew there would not be raids available. This is based on US/EU alone so consider that GW2's population is probably as much as/ more then WoW's NA population and WoW has probably the highest percentage of raiders of any MMO. I would say that is a pretty good indication that people generally don't play MMOS for raids.

    Pretty much this.  People that raid will go to a game that caters to that aspect of gaming. 

     

    Raiding has never interested me, so I'm not phased at all by its exclusion in TESO.  There are other draws to the game for me, and I'm sure I will be quite content playing it when it launches.

     

    So why does WoW have 9+ active million subscribers, if 90% of people dont raid?

     

    Most people stay subscribed to WoW because they feel they can upgrade their character.  Feeling like you can get better gear is why MMOs became successful the last decade.

  • MibletMiblet BognerPosts: 333Member

    If it's fun, it'll be fine with or without raid content.  If it can keep people entertained over the long haul.

    People are, as usualy imposing their own views on why raids should be in or scrapped on how they feel about them, but fail to realise there are many many more people who may enjoy them and removing choices is never a good thing, even if some of those choices you do not enjoy.

    People argue the development costs / time for raids could be put to better use elsewhere but where?  Solo or group content gets consumed at a FAR faster pace for the investment, and large gaps in content make people leave.  PvP content suffers the same problem as raids, in most MMORPGs it gets samey and repetitve, then as with raiding, people stop (there are those who don't in either raiding or PvP but they are not the majority).

     

    Either way, nobody knows how it will play out yet.

    Like it or love it, no game will appeal to everyone.

  • hMJemhMJem Marysville, WAPosts: 465Member
    Originally posted by Miblet

    If it's fun, it'll be fine with or without raid content.  If it can keep people entertained over the long haul.

    People are, as usualy imposing their own views on why raids should be in or scrapped on how they feel about them, but fail to realise there are many many more people who may enjoy them and removing choices is never a good thing, even if some of those choices you do not enjoy.

    People argue the development costs / time for raids could be put to better use elsewhere but where?  Solo or group content gets consumed at a FAR faster pace for the investment, and large gaps in content make people leave.  PvP content suffers the same problem as raids, in most MMORPGs it gets samey and repetitve, then as with raiding, people stop (there are those who don't in either raiding or PvP but they are not the majority).

     

    Either way, nobody knows how it will play out yet.

    Like it or love it, no game will appeal to everyone.

    But no MMORPG thrives off no end-game or ways to gear up that take time or skill. Simple fact. The game gets bought off hype, then it spikes downwards drastically. SWTOR went from 3 million to 500k in a year. That is NOT good. 2.5 million decided playing their game isnt worth it even after going free to play. That just sounds humiliating to say outloud.

     

    My opinion is that this game will be subscription based. Wouldnt advertising it as free to play attract a group too? Or be a good quality to advertise? I am guessing they'll just drop the news in a few months, closer to release so people dont really have an alternative if they are that mad about it. (Doesnt matter to me either way, I'm used to subscription based MMOs)

  • MibletMiblet BognerPosts: 333Member

    How does no raiding equate to no end game?

    They have to have something planned that will keep people occupied to assume that traditional PvE raiding is the only possibility for success is as niave as those assuming only end game PvP would lead to success.

    Without the end game hook it will fail, I never said anything to contradict this.  Your reply seems to assert that this hook MUST be traditional raiding for success which isn't true, just as it wouldn't be for PvP.

    SWToR had it's fair share of problems, and the scary thing is that if you look at most MMO releases they suffer similar drop offs, even those with end game raiding, as the current trend seems to be check out the new game then return to familiar territory for the vast majority as they expect more than is delivered compared to their 'home' game.

     

    I do agree this will be a sub based game.

  • OgreRaperOgreRaper Detroit, MIPosts: 376Member
    I'm primarily a PvPer, and I can definitely do without raids.
This discussion has been closed.