Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

Is KickStarter just a charitable contribution without a tax deduction?

13»

Comments

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Vrika
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by zymurgeist

     It's not a purchase because it's not a payment for an item of like value.

    Good lord, you're trying to argue what kickstarter is or isn't and I let is slide because you had a different opinion, but you don't even know what kickstarter is.

    The biggest project actually are a purchase, Pebble sold over 100,000 pebble watches through kickstarter, OUYA over 60,000 consoles, etc

    The pledge is the purchase of the item in many cases, in fact in almost all of the major kickstarter projects, the pledge is the purchase for the item. You are buying the item.

     You need to reread the kickstarter rules. They don't actually have to deliver those things although most companies will. You would have a hell of a time making a fraud case if they didn't because, just like Kickstarter says, it's a donation.  Unforseen circumstances do arise. That's not an opinion. It's a fact. Kickstarter can be a wonderful thing but go in with your eyes open.

    Zymurgeist you need to reread the Kickstarter rules, like the part where it says:

       "Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill".

    Or where it says:

       "By creating a fundraising campaign on Kickstarter, you as the Project Creator are offering the public the opportunity to enter into a contract with you. By backing a fundraising campaign on Kickstarter, you as the Backer accept that offer and the contract between Backer and Project Creator is formed"

    Kickstarter Terms of Use are clear that it's not a donation, it's a contract between project creator and the backer. And the project creators are obliged to either fullfill their pormises or refund the backers.

    Source for quoted rules: http://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use

    also this one 

    "Kickstarter does not offer refunds. A Project Creator is not required to grant a Backer’s request for a refund unless the Project Creator is unable or unwilling to fulfill the reward."

    so looks like if the project tanks and game is never made they ARE required to give a refund since the creator wouldn't be able to fullfill game rewards if there is no game.. so guess it's not really that much of a gamble afterall.. +1 for kickstarter:)

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ramonski7
    I'm EA. I just sold The Earth and Beyond ip to a fake developer called AE who is actually a front company for EA in Asia. I tell them to start a Kickstarter page to get Earth and Beyond 2 off the ground. Any laws stopping them from collecting from all the clueless saps (me included)? Nope.

    I believe they have to be a registered company to start a campaign on Kickstarter in the US and UK.

    So you could if you wanted to take a look into said company and gain a lot of information and possibly find out if they have any ties to big publishers..

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Sal1
    Is KickStarter just a charitable contribution without a tax deduction? Is that what Kickstarter really is?

    I think it is more like a fantasy world where you can say anything trying to con people into giving you money.

    Personally, i don't believe in it at all. Won't spend a dime on kickstarter. Show me the product, and may be i will buy. I don't pay for wishful thinking.

  • Aison2Aison2 MarburgPosts: 624Member

    Classic concept:

    Devs ask for money from publisher

    publisher gets X% of earnings

     

    Kickstarter:

    Devs ask for money from player

    player gets game

     

    Kickstarter is simply eliminating the third party (publisher) at the cost of transferring the risk of investment in a failed product from the third party to the player. Saying that the devs have nothing to loose in this is wrong. The quality of their product will determine if the players will help funding their next game.

    Pi*1337/100 = 42

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Aison2

    Classic concept:

    Devs ask for money from publisher

    publisher gets X% of earnings

     

    Kickstarter:

    Devs ask for money from player

    player gets game

     

    Kickstarter is simply eliminating the third party (publisher) at the cost of transferring the risk of investment in a failed product from the third party to the player. Saying that the devs have nothing to loose in this is wrong. The quality of their product will determine if the players will help funding their next game.

    player may or may not get the specified game .... fixed.

  • Aison2Aison2 MarburgPosts: 624Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Aison2

    Classic concept:

    Devs ask for money from publisher

    publisher gets X% of earnings

     

    Kickstarter:

    Devs ask for money from player

    player gets game

     

    Kickstarter is simply eliminating the third party (publisher) at the cost of transferring the risk of investment in a failed product from the third party to the player. Saying that the devs have nothing to loose in this is wrong. The quality of their product will determine if the players will help funding their next game.

    player may or may not get the specified game .... fixed.

    try reading the whole post

    Pi*1337/100 = 42

  • ArChWindArChWind Some Place, WIPosts: 625Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aison2
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Aison2

    Classic concept:

    Devs ask for money from publisher

    publisher gets X% of earnings

     

    Kickstarter:

    Devs ask for money from player

    player gets game

     

    Kickstarter is simply eliminating the third party (publisher) at the cost of transferring the risk of investment in a failed product from the third party to the player. Saying that the devs have nothing to loose in this is wrong. The quality of their product will determine if the players will help funding their next game.

    player may or may not get the specified game .... fixed.

    try reading the whole post

    I don't think they really care about the 'next game' if they are fleecing you.

    I did find some interesting information that may interest some here.

    http://blog.icrowd.com/crowdfunding-fraud/

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,870Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Sal1

    Is KickStarter just a charitable contribution without a tax deduction? Is that what Kickstarter really is?

    Yep, that is exactly what Kickstarter is.

    You are donating healthy people in productive age that are absolutely not in any material need.They should have no issue to find a job, yet they are begging for money.

    Quite disgusting in my book...

  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,515Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Terranah

    Back in the old days, devs released a crappy game and prayed some poor idiots bought it before the word spread it was shite.  Hell, devs still do this today.

     

    But now days we have what's called kick starter where you just promise a game and people will give you money.  Can it be legitimate?  Yes.  But the potential for abuse is great in my opinion.  What are the safe guards so people don't lose their money?

     

    I pay $60 for a game if I like it.  There's a lot of great ideas or games I would like to play but have no funding.  Would I be willing to pledge $1000 or $10,000 to a game's development to see it to fruition with no payout other than to play what in the end is a $60 game for what amounts to a few online trinkets, a title, or some other digital equivalent marking me as a founder.  Hell to the fooking no.

     

    Now...if there was a promise to share in the rewards at release, like purchasing of stock or bonds, I might have a different view.

     

    Back in the old days, gaming was about having a good time.  Now it's all about microtransaction, freetoplay scams and finding ways to part little nerds from their hard earned cash. 

     

    That's my take.  Anyone here made any money from their 'investment' in kickstarter?

    Well.. for me it is some kind of prepurchase. As most MMOs nowadays offers prepurchase with beta access 6 month before release, a kickstarter is prepurchased in the very beginning of the development cycle.

    I usually dont invest more than 50$, mostly less around 30$ with beta access,  and only in projects i believe it will be released and they have actually some experienced game developer and some credit. Games like Star Citizen or even a MMO like Pathfinder. Is it worth it? Well.. it is more or less as much worth as any other game i bought without a lot of research before. Some are shit, other are great, but after all its just 30-50 bugs.

    And the advantage of crowdfunding is, that the developer have full creative control over the project, and this is a huge advantage in the hand of a veteran designer like Chris Roberts or Peter Molyneux. And in all honestly i fully understand that a lot of veteran designer now go the way with kickstarter, without any restricting publisher, because of the creative freedom.

    And all of those veteran designers got there bad experience and headaches with publishers in the past.

    But is there the potential of fraud? Of course, and everytime i see a kickstarter promises the heaven, and want to accomplish it with just a few hundred thouseds or even less, i basicly know they dont know what to do, and will never be able to deliver anything worthwhile. (so never invest in a mmo kickstarter with less then 1$ million projected goal, and for a single player game anything less than 500k is very dubios)

    But do i believe Star Citizen will be a playable game? Or the recently funded Torment: Tides of Numenera? I would bet almost any amount that they will be playable. Will they be fun for you, or me? I guess its up to preference, as with any game.

    Buttom line is that veteran game designer have regulary made good to very good games, and were in the past more often than not restricted from publishers. Just look at the biography from design legends like Peter Molyneux, Chris Roberts and a few others. If you invest in nonames you will take the full risk.

  • TheHavokTheHavok San Jose, CAPosts: 2,398Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Terranah

    Back in the old days, devs released a crappy game and prayed some poor idiots bought it before the word spread it was shite.  Hell, devs still do this today.

     

    But now days we have what's called kick starter where you just promise a game and people will give you money.  Can it be legitimate?  Yes.  But the potential for abuse is great in my opinion.  What are the safe guards so people don't lose their money?

     

    I pay $60 for a game if I like it.  There's a lot of great ideas or games I would like to play but have no funding.  Would I be willing to pledge $1000 or $10,000 to a game's development to see it to fruition with no payout other than to play what in the end is a $60 game for what amounts to a few online trinkets, a title, or some other digital equivalent marking me as a founder.  Hell to the fooking no.

     

    Now...if there was a promise to share in the rewards at release, like purchasing of stock or bonds, I might have a different view.

     

    Back in the old days, gaming was about having a good time.  Now it's all about microtransaction, freetoplay scams and finding ways to part little nerds from their hard earned cash. 

     

    That's my take.  Anyone here made any money from their 'investment' in kickstarter?

    This sums it up pretty well for me.  Kudos to you Terranah.

    I just want to play a fucking game that is well made and reward the company that made it.

  • vgamervgamer Texas, IAPosts: 195Member
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Sal1

    Is KickStarter just a charitable contribution without a tax deduction? Is that what Kickstarter really is?

     

    Yep, that is exactly what Kickstarter is.

    You are donating healthy people in productive age that are absolutely not in any material need.They should have no issue to find a job, yet they are begging for money.

    Quite disgusting in my book...

    This indeed. Meanwhile, people on the other half of the world starve to death or are exploited to get us the cheapest products. Humanity at it's finest.

  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Pittsville, VAPosts: 5,215Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Sal1

    Is KickStarter just a charitable contribution without a tax deduction? Is that what Kickstarter really is?

     

    Yep, that is exactly what Kickstarter is.

    You are donating healthy people in productive age that are absolutely not in any material need.They should have no issue to find a job, yet they are begging for money.

    Quite disgusting in my book...

     You're ignoring the positive benefits. If you want less of something tax it. If you want more of something throw money at it. It's an inefficient way of distributing money to encourage making a certain product but it does work sometimes. It's a way of voting positively with your wallet for things you want rather than negatively by witholding cash from things you don't want. People just need to understand the nature of the vehicle.

    "Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  • EverwestEverwest Como, MOPosts: 75Member

    As a donor, you really just need to view Kickstarter is just a pay-up-front sales model that gives creators/businesses a barometer of market demand.  It just helps answer the question, "If I make this, will enough people buy it?"  If the answer for the individual is, "Yes, I'll buy that," then you "donate."  But you're essentially just paying up front for the donation rewards.

    It's an incredibly useful tool.  The only way it's not a win/win is if you go around throwing your money at things you don't actually want.  Obviously with a video game that hasn't been made yet, you run the risk of being disappointed.

    Personally we'll be depending on Kickstarter for our game.  Could we fund it ourselves?  Maybe.  But that wouldn't give us any idea if people were actually willing to subscribe to play it.  By paying for a subscription up front, we can guage demand proportional to fundraising.  It not only gives us capitol to invest in the project, but provides an indispensable measure for how much we should be investing in the project based on the level of interest and demand.

  • AbndnAbndn OsloPosts: 53Member
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by zymurgeist

     You cannot make money by giving to a kickstarter. Kickstarter is not a financial investment.

     

    You don't need to make money to be part of capitalism, when you buy a product in a free market economy you are part of capitalism, you are investing money in kickstarter with the goal to own capital, that is pure capitalism. It sure as hell is not the same as charity.

    I don't even know why I'm arguing something this straighforward, you can have your opinion and I'll leave it at that since I think you're being stubborn for no apparent reason.

     You have a flawed grasp of the concept of capitalism.  Purchasing goods for consumption and use is not capitalism. Goods can be sold to obtain capital but are not themselves capital. What is most straightforward is you don't understand Kickstarter. Kickstarter contributions are not a financial instrument. They are a gift.

     

    Nothing is more crucial to capitalism than consumers purchasing goods for consumption. In an ideal capitalist society you always buy a video game because you believe the enjoyment/benefit/happiness (it doesn't really matter what you call it) of owning the game exceeds that of owning the money it costs.

    As far as Kickstarter goes it ISN'T anything in particular; you can interpret it in any number of ways. You might say that it is a "capitalist idea" because consumers invest money in something they believe will provide a future return (not in money, but in happiness/enjoyment/benefit). You could also say that it is charity, but it's an odd sort of charity that expects the sort of return I mentioned above. Then again some might argue that charity just tends to be about making yourself feel better, which makes that a sort of investment as well.

    In any case it doesn't really matter. What does matter is whether or not Kickstarter can be used to transfer money tax-free. xD

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member

    I funded FTL on kickstarter and yes, I made my money back in terms of enjoyment x100.

    Jeez, is that game awesome!

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • William12William12 Saint paul, MNPosts: 680Member
    Kickstarter is a scam to get investment into a game you cant get private investors to pay for except you get no profit sharing or stock in the game you're investing in.
  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Pittsville, VAPosts: 5,215Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jpnz

    I funded FTL on kickstarter and yes, I made my money back in terms of enjoyment x100.

    Jeez, is that game awesome!

     Yeah, but did you get any more enjoyment out of it than people who didn't contribute a penny? It wouldn't surprise me if you did.

    "Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,870Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by zymurgeist

    You're ignoring the positive benefits.

    There are none...well, apart from KS donees laughing their asses off about human gullibility.

  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Nevada, MOPosts: 2,732Member Common

    Is the developer a recognized non-profit or not-for-profit organization?

     

    No.

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • DrakxiiDrakxii Waxahachie, TXPosts: 594Member

     

    I really don't get the hate kickstarter gets.  Does it have risk?  Yep, but what doesn't?  Every time you buy food you run the risk it will give you food posioning.  Everytime you buy an item you run the risk that it's flawed or defective.  Even with games you run the risk that it's going to be crap.   Do you think the majority of SWTOR, aliens colony marines, DA2, etc... don't reget buying it?

     

    What's the difference between never getting a game or getting a crap one on kickstarter or getting a crap game you're never going to touch again?  In both cases you wasted your money, in both cases you want your money back and in both cases someone else got paid.

     

    The benefit of kickstarter is you can support games that no publisher would touch.  EA wasn't going to pay for FTL, activsion didn't want to pay for wasteland 2, ubisoft wasn't interested in Organ Trail: Director's Cut, etc... 

     

    But more than anything kickstarter does one thing that the normal publisher system doesn't, it shows support for a genre/ideas outside of the normal crap publishers make.

    I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.

13»
Sign In or Register to comment.