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[POLL] Tab Targeting vs Action Combat

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Comments

  • patlefortpatlefort Midgard, CTPosts: 71Member Uncommon
    TERA does require alot of strategy. You don't see a third of it by just watching videos. Not only you need to follow a strategy, you need to avoid getting hit, you need to DPS like a madman to get pass the enrage timers. It become easy only when you have all the strategies and the gear. It is very intense and only a very small % can clear the high end content.
  • PivotelitePivotelite Hamilton, ONPosts: 2,167Member
    Originally posted by dimasok
    Action combat. After playing TERA, playing any other MMOs with regular tab targeting is an exercise in frustration and anger.

    Basically this, high level TERA PvP is unmmatched by any other MMO I have played. As much as I loved Rift and WoWs PvP I found myself unable to go back after becoming competitive in TERAs PvP scene.

    image

  • patlefortpatlefort Midgard, CTPosts: 71Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Fion
    I like the action combat but having to click a button to see the mouse is immersion breaking.

    Humm what?

  • RamanadjinnRamanadjinn Huntsville, ALPosts: 1,365Member Uncommon

    how one acquires a "target" or whether one acquires a "target" at all isn't really what divides the different styles of combat in an MMO.

    trying to look at it from that perspective just makes most every game a "hybrid," and sort of invalidates the poll.

  • gordiflugordiflu BarcelonaPosts: 757Member
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    Don't be a fool. Action combat can and has just as much tactics, CC and everything else than any other method of combat. It only looks like a button mash to someone who doesn't understand what is happening.

    You're letting your ignorance show.

    What are you even talking about. Show me one game where you need to split a single mob out of a pack of 10 that doesn't use tab targeting.

    Show me one.

    Explain to me how you would even select a target in a game without targeting....how would that even work??

    I've played non-target games like Vindictus, strategy is non-existent in those games, they're button combo mashfests zerg galore solofests and it's a direct result of their console combat style.

    You have to do it all the time in tera boss fights. Boss fights often have multiple mobs and you have to pull one out whie killing the rest ect. I don't know about vindictus never played it but games like tera are not button mashers ( well I guess they are if you don't knwo what you're doing but then so are tab target mmos). They have targets like any mmo you just can't lock on and fire smart rounds over your shoulder at them. You have to actually aim.

    Keep in mind action combat is very new to mmos. So it's still evolving. tab targeting hasn't really changed that much other than say guild wars2 which....is just evolving into action combat.

    Evolving is the wrong term to use.  Switching to action combat is the correct way to put it.  Evolving denotes tab target combat as older and inferior when it is merely just a different choice in mechanics.

     

    I'll take tab target over action / twitch any day of the week.

    Tab Targetting IS older and inferior. It's what old servers, old computers and old bandwidth could cope with. Now we have the technology for something else on a massive scale, but we didn't back then.

  • akkedis86akkedis86 pretoriaPosts: 108Member Uncommon

    click special attack, click special attack, click special attack, click special attack, dodge, and repeat .

    All the while you need to keep your cursor close to, or on the enemy, and get to experience three animations, which 10 hours in, is not so great anymore.

     

    Don't fool yourself, this isn't action, Tera isn't action based, it's damn more boring than tab targeting, as mostly it's executed extremely poorly.

    Another point to be made, action based tend to have less cooldowns, how do they compensate for server lag?

     

    All that being said, Neverwinter has the best action combat system I've seen, but is it good enough?

  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Webster, MAPosts: 4,813Member
    Originally posted by Ramanadjinn

    how one acquires a "target" or whether one acquires a "target" at all isn't really what divides the different styles of combat in an MMO.

    trying to look at it from that perspective just makes most every game a "hybrid," and sort of invalidates the poll.

    Its commonly accepted that when you are reffering to tab targeting or action combat you take into account the standard mechanics that support them. The terms themselves represent a great deal more than just how you aquire a target.  

     

  • RamanadjinnRamanadjinn Huntsville, ALPosts: 1,365Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by gordiflu

     

    Tab Targetting IS older and inferior. It's what old servers, old computers and old bandwidth could cope with. Now we have the technology for something else on a massive scale, but we didn't back then.

     

    Did you know one of the first MMOs out had action type combat?  In Meridian 59 one could simply swing their sword and if the troll was in range of the sword he was hit.

    Some folks used the system to tag people as outlaws, jumping in between someone and the spider they were attacking so they would be flagged as a "pk" of sorts having hit another player.

    Of course, one could select a target in that game as well.. but i didn't even know that for months of playing it because it wasn't really necessary.

    Edit: Grayghost, I'm aware of all of that.  Many discussing the situation though seem to not be.  Bad arguments and misguided assumptions could all be avoided by discussing terms that are clearly defined and not so flawed from the outset.  It is those misguided assumptions that cause much of the conflict in a discussion such as this one.

  • patlefortpatlefort Midgard, CTPosts: 71Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by akkedis86

    click special attack, click special attack, click special attack, click special attack, dodge, and repeat .

    All the while you need to keep your cursor close to, or on the enemy, and get to experience three animations, which 10 hours in, is not so great anymore.

     

    Don't fool yourself, this isn't action, Tera isn't action based, it's damn more boring than tab targeting, as mostly it's executed extremely poorly.

    Another point to be made, action based tend to have less cooldowns, how do they compensate for server lag?

     

    All that being said, Neverwinter has the best action combat system I've seen, but is it good enough?

    The leveling experience is kinda boring, not more than most theme park MMOs however. Dongeons and BAMs is what's fun and challenging in TERA. It is action as you have to actively dodge or block, you have to aim and is generally faster paced.

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member
    Originally posted by gordiflu

    Tab Targetting IS older and inferior. It's what old servers, old computers and old bandwidth could cope with. Now we have the technology for something else on a massive scale, but we didn't back then.

    what does tab targeting have to do with bandwith

    action combat just removes downtime, strategy and replaces it with fast button skill based combat that's seen on consoles....in fact that's why these games all work with console controllers

    it has nothing to do with advancements of computers, this type of gameplay has existed on consoles since forever, the combo and dodge type of fast gameplay has existed on consoles in RPG and hack & slash since forever

    the raids in action MMO remind me of console titles actually, they remind me of Monster Hunter and some Hack & Slash on consoles

  • BahamutKaiserBahamutKaiser Hyattsville, MDPosts: 306Member
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by gordiflu

    Tab Targetting IS older and inferior. It's what old servers, old computers and old bandwidth could cope with. Now we have the technology for something else on a massive scale, but we didn't back then.

    what does tab targeting have to do with bandwith

    action combat just removes downtime, strategy and replaces it with fast button skill based combat that's seen on consoles....in fact that's why these games all work with console controllers

    it has nothing to do with advancements of computers, this type of gameplay has existed on consoles since forever

    It's easier for a computer and the internet to process an action that is assigned to a specific target rather than communicate hit detection in manual target aquasition.

    The fact that many other mechanics and behaviors are linked to tab targetting because of the same reason of lack of physical capability is just happenstance, those features could be done with an action system too if they simply chose to.

    Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
    That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,117Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by gordiflu
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    Don't be a fool. Action combat can and has just as much tactics, CC and everything else than any other method of combat. It only looks like a button mash to someone who doesn't understand what is happening.

    You're letting your ignorance show.

    What are you even talking about. Show me one game where you need to split a single mob out of a pack of 10 that doesn't use tab targeting.

    Show me one.

    Explain to me how you would even select a target in a game without targeting....how would that even work??

    I've played non-target games like Vindictus, strategy is non-existent in those games, they're button combo mashfests zerg galore solofests and it's a direct result of their console combat style.

    You have to do it all the time in tera boss fights. Boss fights often have multiple mobs and you have to pull one out whie killing the rest ect. I don't know about vindictus never played it but games like tera are not button mashers ( well I guess they are if you don't knwo what you're doing but then so are tab target mmos). They have targets like any mmo you just can't lock on and fire smart rounds over your shoulder at them. You have to actually aim.

    Keep in mind action combat is very new to mmos. So it's still evolving. tab targeting hasn't really changed that much other than say guild wars2 which....is just evolving into action combat.

    Evolving is the wrong term to use.  Switching to action combat is the correct way to put it.  Evolving denotes tab target combat as older and inferior when it is merely just a different choice in mechanics.

     

    I'll take tab target over action / twitch any day of the week.

    Tab Targetting IS older and inferior. It's what old servers, old computers and old bandwidth could cope with. Now we have the technology for something else on a massive scale, but we didn't back then.

    It is not inferior, it is a preference.  It may be older chronologically, but not older in the sense of obsolescence.

    image
  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member
    Originally posted by BahamutKaiser
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by gordiflu

    Tab Targetting IS older and inferior. It's what old servers, old computers and old bandwidth could cope with. Now we have the technology for something else on a massive scale, but we didn't back then.

    what does tab targeting have to do with bandwith

    action combat just removes downtime, strategy and replaces it with fast button skill based combat that's seen on consoles....in fact that's why these games all work with console controllers

    it has nothing to do with advancements of computers, this type of gameplay has existed on consoles since forever

    It's easier for a computer and the internet to process an action that is assigned to a specific target rather than communicate hit detection in manual target aquasition.

     

    bull, this game came out 13 years ago on PC and it's the same action style you see in action MMO right now https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SK0Xf30DL0E

    the fact action MMO come out now has nothign to do with advancements in PC, it's because the mainstream and younger players want console packed MMO without any downtime or strategy, since that's what they're used to and most have an attention span of 2 seconds

     

  • HaltsTimeHaltsTime Somerville, MAPosts: 30Member
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    If I wanted action combat I would play a console game with a controller where I could mash buttons.

    Tab targeting allows for tactics like crowd control and splitting techniques that simply aren't possible during action zergfests.

     

     

    Check out Tera, action with very limited lock on skills, no tab target though, and yet you can CC

    image

  • BahamutKaiserBahamutKaiser Hyattsville, MDPosts: 306Member
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by gordiflu
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    Don't be a fool. Action combat can and has just as much tactics, CC and everything else than any other method of combat. It only looks like a button mash to someone who doesn't understand what is happening.

    You're letting your ignorance show.

    What are you even talking about. Show me one game where you need to split a single mob out of a pack of 10 that doesn't use tab targeting.

    Show me one.

    Explain to me how you would even select a target in a game without targeting....how would that even work??

    I've played non-target games like Vindictus, strategy is non-existent in those games, they're button combo mashfests zerg galore solofests and it's a direct result of their console combat style.

    You have to do it all the time in tera boss fights. Boss fights often have multiple mobs and you have to pull one out whie killing the rest ect. I don't know about vindictus never played it but games like tera are not button mashers ( well I guess they are if you don't knwo what you're doing but then so are tab target mmos). They have targets like any mmo you just can't lock on and fire smart rounds over your shoulder at them. You have to actually aim.

    Keep in mind action combat is very new to mmos. So it's still evolving. tab targeting hasn't really changed that much other than say guild wars2 which....is just evolving into action combat.

    Evolving is the wrong term to use.  Switching to action combat is the correct way to put it.  Evolving denotes tab target combat as older and inferior when it is merely just a different choice in mechanics.

     

    I'll take tab target over action / twitch any day of the week.

    Tab Targetting IS older and inferior. It's what old servers, old computers and old bandwidth could cope with. Now we have the technology for something else on a massive scale, but we didn't back then.

    It is not inferior, it is a preference.  It may be older chronologically, but not older in the sense of obsolescence.

    Watching yal back and forth about a system that can work synonimously is getting boresome...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seu4_FdfVSI

    Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
    That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  • patlefortpatlefort Midgard, CTPosts: 71Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by BahamutKaiser
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by gordiflu

    Tab Targetting IS older and inferior. It's what old servers, old computers and old bandwidth could cope with. Now we have the technology for something else on a massive scale, but we didn't back then.

    what does tab targeting have to do with bandwith

    action combat just removes downtime, strategy and replaces it with fast button skill based combat that's seen on consoles....in fact that's why these games all work with console controllers

    it has nothing to do with advancements of computers, this type of gameplay has existed on consoles since forever

    It's easier for a computer and the internet to process an action that is assigned to a specific target rather than communicate hit detection in manual target aquasition.

     

    bull, this game came out 13 years ago on PC and it's the same action style you see in action MMO right now https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SK0Xf30DL0E

    the fact action MMO come out now has nothign to do with advancements in PC, it's because the mainstream and younger players want console packed MMO without any downtime or strategy, since that's what they're used to and most have an attention span of 2 seconds

     

    Consoles also always had slower paced strategy games. PC always had action games. Neither genre is locked from any platform. Both have a crowd for both genre.

    Less downtime just mean less time wasted, how is this bad?

    Are you saying that action games are no challenge?

  • BanquettoBanquetto CityPosts: 1,037Member Uncommon

    I'm a little bit bored of tab-targeting style combat. And I like the idea of action combat. But I haven't yet played an MMO with action combat that was any good. So for now, I'll vote tab-targeting for MMOs, and save the action for more constrained game types like ARPGs.

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member

    Less downtime just mean less time wasted, how is this bad?

    Are you saying that action games are no challenge?

    downtime helps community building and strategy

    action games have less challenge compared to PVE tab games yes, they tend to have no significant death penalty or downtime after a failure, in all the games I played you get unlimited tries at every raid, you don't get punished for mistakes, which leads to zerging you see in those games, their raids tend to be below 40 players, there's less challenge in CC and a much bigger window in which a wrong action is tolerated

    raids also simply last much shorter, in tab games raids can easily last an hour, in action games raids tend to be under 20 minutes, I assume because if you had to bash buttons for an hour your fingers would be in pain

    they have button mashing skill, that's the only thing I find challenging about them, the only difficulty in Vindictus was making sure your fingers didn't get tired from all the dodging and mashing of buttons

     

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by gordiflu

    Tab Targetting IS older and inferior. It's what old servers, old computers and old bandwidth could cope with. Now we have the technology for something else on a massive scale, but we didn't back then.

    what does tab targeting have to do with bandwith

    action combat just removes downtime, strategy and replaces it with fast button skill based combat that's seen on consoles....in fact that's why these games all work with console controllers

    it has nothing to do with advancements of computers, this type of gameplay has existed on consoles since forever, the combo and dodge type of fast gameplay has existed on consoles in RPG and hack & slash since forever

    the raids in action MMO remind me of console titles actually, they remind me of Monster Hunter and some Hack & Slash on consoles

    Action based games require more bandwidth, but it is not the bottleneck here. The servers are. Action games, in general, generate more information for the server to calculate, like BahamutKaiser said, collision detection, manual target acquisition, physics etc. The demand of resources on the server side for many such "advanced features" is exponential to the amount of players in the same area.

    Your example from Rune is invalid, because Rune was not a MMORPG. It had small servers similar to any FPS game. And speaking of FPS games, they have small servers because the servers can't handle higher player numbers with fluency. I say fluency, because FPS games, just like action games, are very time sensitive and vulnerable to lag. In contrast, Eve does not suffer much from a second long lag or desync. Much of the lag goes unnoticed. But when you play an FPS game and try to shoot something, or play an action RPG and can't hit that block at the just the right time, it matters.

    Now when you start amping up the player count, you have to do some pretty special optimization or give up features. Battlefield 3 makes hit calculations on the client side, which explains the quirky way people shoot and die in close quarters. You can and people have exploited this solution to some extent. Normally, the hit or miss is determined serverside.

    Now, unless the developers of Battlefield 3 are incredibly inept, the player numbers per server is pretty much the highest we can do with current technology in a physics heavy, FPS/vehicle combat with destructible terrain. You could do more, but likely the game would be so unresponsive, it wouldn't be fun to play anymore.

    Then when you look at Vindictus, Dragon Nest, Cloud Nine, DDO and GW1, they are all in small scale. They have time sensitive combat, similar to FPS which takes more "brainpower" from the server and more bandwidth.

    How does Eve handle the large numbers then? -Simple, they've optimized for it: You have no direct controls over your ships because if you did, you'd notice the lag; second, direct controls would generate more information to be sent by your client and handled by the server. Imagine this happening to every player in the game and the added server loads would be substantial. Include genuine collision detection and physics, you'd have to bring the player count per battle even lower. Start aiming your own salvos and it has to come further down.

    Having none of these makes them able to have hundreds of players in the same area, in the same battle.

    I don't much care for large engagements. They haven't been made all that well so far, and they are often boring to your common footsoldier - and not everyone can be the general. I prefer small-scale PvP myself, because I like the feel that I matter and that I have greater impact on the outcome.

    Then again, I come from a tabletop RPG background where PvE was always about you and few of your friends exploring dungeons, solving mysteries and battling monsters. Nowhere near the scale of raids.

    I'm happy that I can play with and share the game world with so many people, but I don't have to be able to play with them all at the same time. That is not required from an MMO. I like games that are optimized for small-scale and generally have more game in them.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,696Member Uncommon

    Thanks Quirhid.

    It was becoming frustrating watching both sides argue from fairly ignorant perspectives, but your post pretty much nailed it.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • DraemosDraemos Antartica, AKPosts: 1,469Member
    Originally posted by Banquetto

    I'm a little bit bored of tab-targeting style combat. And I like the idea of action combat. But I haven't yet played an MMO with action combat that was any good. So for now, I'll vote tab-targeting for MMOs, and save the action for more constrained game types like ARPGs.

    There are several good ones, some of them just are only good when playing certain classes.

     

    Tera's warrior class it outstanding for instance.

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member
    I don't mind either style although I do find tab targeting combat to be easier for obvious reasons

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • KareliaKarelia HeraklionPosts: 668Member
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    Less downtime just mean less time wasted, how is this bad?

    Are you saying that action games are no challenge?

    downtime helps community building and strategy

    action games have less challenge compared to PVE tab games yes, they tend to have no significant death penalty or downtime after a failure, in all the games I played you get unlimited tries at every raid, you don't get punished for mistakes, which leads to zerging you see in those games, their raids tend to be below 40 players, there's less challenge in CC and a much bigger window in which a wrong action is tolerated

    raids also simply last much shorter, in tab games raids can easily last an hour, in action games raids tend to be under 20 minutes, I assume because if you had to bash buttons for an hour your fingers would be in pain

    they have button mashing skill, that's the only thing I find challenging about them, the only difficulty in Vindictus was making sure your fingers didn't get tired from all the dodging and mashing of buttons

     

     

    this ^^

  • VindicarVindicar ParisPosts: 134Member

    Can't vote.

     

    I prefer action-tab-targeting combats...

    Old school french hardcore whiner. Online since T4C.

    I was "Namless" and "Daroot" in AO (Rk2)
    Recently known as "Vindicar" (Aion (EU), SWTOR (EU), WoW (EU).
    Actually Known as "Wundicar" in Age of Wushu (US)

  • akkedis86akkedis86 pretoriaPosts: 108Member Uncommon

    My point being through all of this, Action combat has allot less choice, and you need to have a solid system, which I have yet to see.

     

    Tab targeting is basically just auto-acquire.

    With tab-targeting, you have more choice, more diversity, and thus more longevity.

    5 skills versus 40 skills, guess which one I'll choose.

     

    so tab targeting, start with protective barrier, periodic effect, short burst lightning, long burst lightning, bigger periodic effect, stun attack, self-heal, knockback, and short lightning attack, and long lightning attack, all the while balancing stamina/mana, whatever.(Nevermind balancing stats, and taunting, and healing.

     

    This is just a simple example, but it's allot more engaging than a simple dodge and shoot that you currently find in action mmo's.

     

    if they want something engaging, make it atleast ten active skills, and some passives, but not five, that's just awful. For example, as I stated, neverwinter feels less clunky, combat animations are fluid, dodging is pretty, and effective, aoe, and area hits reflect on the ground, with its six active skills, it does feel kind of interristing, but it does not offer enough choice, granted you may change out your skills at higher levels ,though it does present a interristing ideal.

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