i dont care if the 90% of the player base will not see the full content. i dont care if i am at 90% too.
i would like to see indeed hard raids in ws. very hard. you must have a goal. to see whats next. to go where 10% goes. to have even a single piece of loot from there. to pray to be in a good raiding guild and have you selected for their raiding team.
i think all those makes you feel a bit EPIC. at least i felt sometimes like this in the past
I know what you mean, having higher goals to aim for (and I don't just mean better gear) is something I've felt is missing from many recent MMOs that just end up being treadmills because, well, everything is easy (read: mindless); hopefully 20 and 40 man raids in WS can start to change that, and hopefully the devs (and publishers) can hold their nerve long enough for more people to realise this.
So where's the focus? Seems like raiding to me. And I guess if you're one of the few really hardcore raiders out there you'll love this.
You obviously didn't read the very article you linked. If you had, you would have seen this line:
"The last point on this topic, is to not assume that raids will be "the endgame" as is the case in many MMOs. It is simply "an endgame." For players who don't love this sort of content, there will be many other avenues and heaps of other Elder game content that will not require a player to set a foot inside a 20- or 40-man instance."
i agree
but we are still awaiting more details about the elder nonraid game -- hopefully PAX will have info
But we've all heard that before right? Every game that has raiding, Rift, WoW, EQ2, touts viable alternatives, but the raiding always ends up being the pinnacle event for progression. Raiders aren't going to share that end game shiny and non-raiders are going to see the claim and situation for what it is.
All the non-raid content in Rift, LotRO or EQ2 doesn't require a player to set foot inside a raid either. All three of those games gate the nicest equipment and shinies behind their raids. Non-raiders get second hand gear, second hand progression, but the game is true to their claim. Raiding, as it's been implemented, has been overdone and is one of the tropes that is holding themepark progress back.
edit: Also there is already another thread about this.
They offer second hand gear, because everything nonraiders do don't require more. There is absolutely zero, absolutely no reason, for a person who does not do raids, to get equal gear to raiders, other than just jealousy. People like you hate this system, because you are a god damn greedy person and for some reason you don't realize it yourselves. You just want what others have. Why do you need the raiding gear? To do larger crits to critters? Raids give better gear because higher level gear have such things as gear checks, which stop players from progressing if they do not meet the gear requirements, which is for offering more challenge and more content per time. Giving the players who do not raid, raiding gear, only destroys the difficult of raiding. Then games (wow these days in challenge modes, done only thanks to greedy players like you who just want to have what others have, even if they don't ever use it) have to actually make mechanics like changing your gear values in the raid instance, so that people wouldn't faceroll the content with the best gear that you can easily obtain (without raiding).
Casuals hate raiding only because of greed. You hate your neighbour who has a ferrari only because you don't have a ferrari. Even tho you don't need one at all.
Really? I thought I hated raiding because of the immense time commitment and the monotony. But it seems you know me better than I know me - so yeah must be greed.
Casuals hate raiding only because of greed. You hate your neighbour who has a ferrari only because you don't have a ferrari. Even tho you don't need one at all.
Really? I thought I hated raiding because of the immense time commitment and the monotony. But it seems you know me better than I know me - so yeah must be greed.
i actully hate large scale raiding because it normally leads to elitism. to be honest i could care less about haveing the best ubber gear in the game, why cause i dont really care about the whole e-pean thing.
to be honest if more raids where casual friendly and FUN, instead of you have to do this this exact way with this exact build, then id prob like them more, but even if devs try to make them that way its the players that tend to cause this effect.
their is only one game that did end game raids that was friendly to both casuals and hardcore players at the same time, and didnt have the eliteist fill to it, but its dead now so meh.
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
Originally posted by ragz45 Personally I can't wait for Wildstar's 40 man raids. I loved raiding in Vanila WoW. 40 man raids don't make it more challenging becuase there are 40 people, they make it more challenging because they can make the fights that much more involved and complex with more people.
Casuals hate raiding only because of greed. You hate your neighbour who has a ferrari only because you don't have a ferrari. Even tho you don't need one at all.
Really? I thought I hated raiding because of the immense time commitment and the monotony. But it seems you know me better than I know me - so yeah must be greed.
i actully hate large scale raiding because it normally leads to elitism. to be honest i could care less about haveing the best ubber gear in the game, why cause i dont really care about the whole e-pean thing.
to be honest if more raids where casual friendly and FUN, instead of you have to do this this exact way with this exact build, then id prob like them more, but even if devs try to make them that way its the players that tend to cause this effect.
their is only one game that did end game raids that was friendly to both casuals and hardcore players at the same time, and didnt have the eliteist fill to it, but its dead now so meh.
Casuals hate raiding only because of greed. You hate your neighbour who has a ferrari only because you don't have a ferrari. Even tho you don't need one at all.
Really? I thought I hated raiding because of the immense time commitment and the monotony. But it seems you know me better than I know me - so yeah must be greed.
i actully hate large scale raiding because it normally leads to elitism. to be honest i could care less about haveing the best ubber gear in the game, why cause i dont really care about the whole e-pean thing.
to be honest if more raids where casual friendly and FUN, instead of you have to do this this exact way with this exact build, then id prob like them more, but even if devs try to make them that way its the players that tend to cause this effect.
their is only one game that did end game raids that was friendly to both casuals and hardcore players at the same time, and didnt have the eliteist fill to it, but its dead now so meh.
i dont care about elitists and i dont see them as something that affecting my game. if i dont like them i wont join such a guild or play with such ppl.
i also like non casual raiding. hard core is my taste even if sometimes i dont have either the skill or time to be competitive. thats what i call FUN. knowing that there is more to see. things that only a small % of players will challenge. even if i m not in that percentage in the end, i like to know that its there and waiting for me. thats the only way i can feel EPIC in a game. at least thats me
Originally posted by Siveria All I can say is: Who cares? the game is just another damn wow-clone/wannabe with nothing that really makes it unique like most other mmo's recently, if your expecting much from wildstar your going to be very dissapointed.
Actually, speaking for myself I would be quite satisfied with a fresh sci-fi style IP makeover for a WoW style game. Especially if that game included updated game mechanics to make it feel even fresher, but enough familiarity to make it feel approachable. Generouds doses of humour would be icing on the cake.
The original trailer with the bunny eared chick and the guy on the monocycle didn't grab me. The latest trailers of Wildstar are getting my attention more and more. I'm starting to feel a tingling in my fanboi loins. This could be my next MMO.
News that it will support raiding and grouping and have tanking/healing/support/dps roles just makes it sound even sexier.
Now if they can just get the teamwork, pacing and challenge levels right it could be a helluva fun timesink.
They offer second hand gear, because everything nonraiders do don't require more. There is absolutely zero, absolutely no reason, for a person who does not do raids, to get equal gear to raiders, other than just jealousy. People like you hate this system, because you are a god damn greedy person and for some reason you don't realize it yourselves. You just want what others have. Why do you need the raiding gear? To do larger crits to critters? Raids give better gear because higher level gear have such things as gear checks, which stop players from progressing if they do not meet the gear requirements, which is for offering more challenge and more content per time. Giving the players who do not raid, raiding gear, only destroys the difficult of raiding. Then games (wow these days in challenge modes, done only thanks to greedy players like you who just want to have what others have, even if they don't ever use it) have to actually make mechanics like changing your gear values in the raid instance, so that people wouldn't faceroll the content with the best gear that you can easily obtain (without raiding).
Casuals hate raiding only because of greed. You hate your neighbour who has a ferrari only because you don't have a ferrari. Even tho you don't need one at all.
This post has so much fallacy in it that its astounding.
1. raiders do not need "raid gear". Requirement for higher stats =/= more challenging. Far from it.
2. Its raiders who are greedy and want eevrything under false assumption they are "worth more" and "deserve more" than anyone else
3. How exactly "doing bigger crits" makes anything more challenging? How does doing more DPS/HPS/TPS makes that raid boss more challenging? ooooops it doesnt.
4. Gear checks are sooooo abbysmal concept. One thing raiders fear is that some "casual" out there might beat same content when on equal footing. But have no fear, gear check is in place ensuring that no "unworthy casual" even stand a (mathematical) chance unless they do stupid amount of very simple "on farm" content grind
5. Giving raiders gear with better stats screwes up balance of the whole game because of ridiculous stats that are only required in infinately small piece of content. Again, abbysmal gear check concept
6. Casuals "hate raiding" because of undeserved preference of content. If you want your Ferrari analogy, yah, one might "hate the Ferrai guy" if the only reason he has Ferrari is becaus he is of the right "kind" (if you know what i mean) and doesnt really deserve or need that Ferrari more or less than anyone else
7. I was a raider (and still do raids occasioanly) and you are not a raider, you are simple elitist and thats the reason why "casuals hate raiders"
8. Casuals carry the MMO(s), without them vast maojority of MMO would nose dive, one experiment i proposed (now quite a few years back) for SWTOR is to make game free and just charge sub if you want to do raids, just to see how good it will do.
9. "raiding is most challenging content evar" is logical fallacy, just because few games did that thing that way doesnt make it nearly universal truth, try to do any raid solo and you will soon discover the universal truth. [mod edit]
1 I agree but raids do need rewards. I am fine with epic looking items rather than stats. Or other stuff that helps in raids. It could even be %increase to pve bosses.
2 Sometimes I guess. But raiders tend to put more time then average than other types of players and thus they do tend to be parts of the vocal minority.
3 DPS checks are a way to gate content to force farming other content to pass it. The Naxxaramus WoW instance famously had Patchwork be a huge gear check where you had to farm the rest of the dungeon to progress. This forces more time to be spent in raids and lets raids fufill their core fucntion...a time sink that has a visible end to it.
4 Not every raid has to be a gear check nor should they be. They do have their place though (It does not even have to be something that adds damage in other places. Imagine a planar boss where you had to collect materials from other bosses to craft gear that does extra damage to planar bosses. Thus you can have the core fucntion of gear check without impacting other parts of the game with it.
5 See 3 and 4.
6 Raiding is something to do with a lot of time. Casuals tend to not be raiders because most guilds that are willing to teach someone raid strategies are not willing to keep training new people over and over and will perfer someone who can be there more often. I would love to see ways to change this that is not something like LFR tools. Additionally, raiders generally consume all solo content on top of raiding and tend to like more solo content as long as there is more raiding content to do. It is a very fine line to walk to always have new raiding content. If the end boss can be cleared you would be suprsied at how many people drop their subscription/play time until the next level of content is released.
8 Hordecore players do a lot more per person than a casual player to promote the game. While casual players may outnumber hardcore players in the market, to insinuate that content has to be focused on just one group is kinda ludicrous. The secret is to appease both crowds. If hardcore raiding stopped existing in WoW I guarantee you it would be a shadow of its peak and current status.
9 Raiding content is innately more challenging due to coordination among many people. There are more variables and more things that you as a raid group can change in order to meet your goal. There is a limit to how much challenge you can put in single player content. While yes there can be extremely non challenging raid content, the upper possible limit of challenge while still able to be completed is higher in a raid.
I agree with an earlier poster, as exciting as 40 man raids sound, the reality in today's market is that getting 40 skilled players to do anything is almost impossible. I too see this as a fail.
I also agree with the comment that the emphasis for endgame seems to be leaning towards raiding and pvp, like all the other aaa mmo titles in the last 5 years. This concerns me as I am a solo player. I do not mind including raiding or pvp but that is not my playing style. For me the idea of a solo endgame of some kind was one of the real draws of Wildstar. The game is not even in beta yet so I am not terribly concerned. I just don't want this to be one of the items on the cutting floor when the game releases.
At least (I hope!) they will have a REALLY cool housing system - judging from the video. SO awesome!
40-man raids sound pretty intriguing. I've only experienced raids as big as 25 man, and liked them much better than the 10 man variety that is prevalent today. If they do go though with this, I'll be buying the game just to check it out. And for all those clamoring for non-elitism and accessibility -- there is already a swath of generic MMOs that do that. We don't need another one :x
They offer second hand gear, because everything nonraiders do don't require more. There is absolutely zero, absolutely no reason, for a person who does not do raids, to get equal gear to raiders, other than just jealousy. People like you hate this system, because you are a god damn greedy person and for some reason you don't realize it yourselves. You just want what others have. Why do you need the raiding gear? To do larger crits to critters? Raids give better gear because higher level gear have such things as gear checks, which stop players from progressing if they do not meet the gear requirements, which is for offering more challenge and more content per time. Giving the players who do not raid, raiding gear, only destroys the difficult of raiding. Then games (wow these days in challenge modes, done only thanks to greedy players like you who just want to have what others have, even if they don't ever use it) have to actually make mechanics like changing your gear values in the raid instance, so that people wouldn't faceroll the content with the best gear that you can easily obtain (without raiding).
Casuals hate raiding only because of greed. You hate your neighbour who has a ferrari only because you don't have a ferrari. Even tho you don't need one at all.
This post has so much fallacy in it that its astounding.
1. raiders do not need "raid gear". Requirement for higher stats =/= more challenging. Far from it.
2. Its raiders who are greedy and want eevrything under false assumption they are "worth more" and "deserve more" than anyone else
3. How exactly "doing bigger crits" makes anything more challenging? How does doing more DPS/HPS/TPS makes that raid boss more challenging? ooooops it doesnt.
4. Gear checks are sooooo abbysmal concept. One thing raiders fear is that some "casual" out there might beat same content when on equal footing. But have no fear, gear check is in place ensuring that no "unworthy casual" even stand a (mathematical) chance unless they do stupid amount of very simple "on farm" content grind
5. Giving raiders gear with better stats screwes up balance of the whole game because of ridiculous stats that are only required in infinately small piece of content. Again, abbysmal gear check concept
6. Casuals "hate raiding" because of undeserved preference of content. If you want your Ferrari analogy, yah, one might "hate the Ferrai guy" if the only reason he has Ferrari is becaus he is of the right "kind" (if you know what i mean) and doesnt really deserve or need that Ferrari more or less than anyone else
7. I was a raider (and still do raids occasioanly) and you are not a raider, you are simple elitist and thats the reason why "casuals hate raiders"
8. Casuals carry the MMO(s), without them vast maojority of MMO would nose dive, one experiment i proposed (now quite a few years back) for SWTOR is to make game free and just charge sub if you want to do raids, just to see how good it will do.
9. "raiding is most challenging content evar" is logical fallacy, just because few games did that thing that way doesnt make it nearly universal truth, try to do any raid solo and you will soon discover the universal truth. [mod edit]
1 I agree but raids do need rewards. I am fine with epic looking items rather than stats. Or other stuff that helps in raids. It could even be %increase to pve bosses.
2 Sometimes I guess. But raiders tend to put more time then average than other types of players and thus they do tend to be parts of the vocal minority.
3 DPS checks are a way to gate content to force farming other content to pass it. The Naxxaramus WoW instance famously had Patchwork be a huge gear check where you had to farm the rest of the dungeon to progress. This forces more time to be spent in raids and lets raids fufill their core fucntion...a time sink that has a visible end to it.
4 Not every raid has to be a gear check nor should they be. They do have their place though (It does not even have to be something that adds damage in other places. Imagine a planar boss where you had to collect materials from other bosses to craft gear that does extra damage to planar bosses. Thus you can have the core fucntion of gear check without impacting other parts of the game with it.
5 See 3 and 4.
6 Raiding is something to do with a lot of time. Casuals tend to not be raiders because most guilds that are willing to teach someone raid strategies are not willing to keep training new people over and over and will perfer someone who can be there more often. I would love to see ways to change this that is not something like LFR tools. Additionally, raiders generally consume all solo content on top of raiding and tend to like more solo content as long as there is more raiding content to do. It is a very fine line to walk to always have new raiding content. If the end boss can be cleared you would be suprsied at how many people drop their subscription/play time until the next level of content is released.
8 Hordecore players do a lot more per person than a casual player to promote the game. While casual players may outnumber hardcore players in the market, to insinuate that content has to be focused on just one group is kinda ludicrous. The secret is to appease both crowds. If hardcore raiding stopped existing in WoW I guarantee you it would be a shadow of its peak and current status.
9 Raiding content is innately more challenging due to coordination among many people. There are more variables and more things that you as a raid group can change in order to meet your goal. There is a limit to how much challenge you can put in single player content. While yes there can be extremely non challenging raid content, the upper possible limit of challenge while still able to be completed is higher in a raid.
1. And thats fine. Though thats not whant many want, and thats what majority feels it wont happen but it will go ol' same route.
2. no they dont. This isnt 2001.
3. Sure its a time skink. A time sink >95% skipped in vanilla WoW. I thought people have actually learned from that, but seems not, some still live in dream land and are stuck in "gold ol' EQ days".
Guys, its 2013 and we know helluva lot more than in 2000, care to join us in the present?
4. Of course it doesnt have to be, but since its most convenient and easy for the devs...kind of lazy mode....but its also most transparent and obvious and (mojority of) people have rejected it. There are plenty other ways to gate content, but it bils down to very vocal ultra minority that is hapring "stats, stats, stats"
5. See 3 and 4
6. Casuals tend to do raids when they can actually access them. And since casuals are vast majority, since you actually want to keep em happy its pretty obvious what you have to do. There has to be some hardcore content, but in the end hardcore is a dying breed.
And if someone wonders, 2 cant really coexist in parallel. If you tune for hardcore you screw casual, if you tune for casual you screw hardcore. And, since we already mentioned it, 80%+ are casuals...
8. 2 cannot coexist. Period. Its proven time and time again. Its proven time and time again WoW is an anomaly in most things. Just ask all the folks of failed WoW clones. Or just look at Rift.
9. No it isnt. Its actually much easier on individual to be achievable, and you can make solo content much more challenging than any raid. Its just some self emtitlement from these "raiders" that domehow let them say "im>you" and "my challenge>yours" when i reality its pretty much hogwash.
The challenge is different though, thats what most people fail to grasp.
Though its understandable since few past games tend to really nurture those and conditioned these players on that, but then, its time to face the reality. Its also has to do with loss of status of raiding as "elite" activity. But its pretty much nonsensical to impose such artificial elitism. Its fuuny to see some...people..."i raid noe im ELITE!" eh...no youre not, lol and thus elitism is born and elitism hurts the game.
----------------------------------
Dont get mo wrong, im hardcore and was raider but too many people put their emotions and preferences before whats best for the game. Some facts cannot be denied and its stupid to deny them.
Just in GW2 forums some guy claimed game has very little content, while also claimed he logged 1550 hours in 4 months in which he "finished" the game. So, enlighten us all and give magic formula how to please both hardcore and casual at the same time. And yah, "middle gorund" screwes both.
And, btw, they said they want to make raids different on weekly basis, that may be a step in the right direction, but we still have to see how it will work (and will it actually be that way)
They offer second hand gear, because everything nonraiders do don't require more. There is absolutely zero, absolutely no reason, for a person who does not do raids, to get equal gear to raiders, other than just jealousy. People like you hate this system, because you are a god damn greedy person and for some reason you don't realize it yourselves. You just want what others have. Why do you need the raiding gear? To do larger crits to critters? Raids give better gear because higher level gear have such things as gear checks, which stop players from progressing if they do not meet the gear requirements, which is for offering more challenge and more content per time. Giving the players who do not raid, raiding gear, only destroys the difficult of raiding. Then games (wow these days in challenge modes, done only thanks to greedy players like you who just want to have what others have, even if they don't ever use it) have to actually make mechanics like changing your gear values in the raid instance, so that people wouldn't faceroll the content with the best gear that you can easily obtain (without raiding).
Casuals hate raiding only because of greed. You hate your neighbour who has a ferrari only because you don't have a ferrari. Even tho you don't need one at all.
Casuals hate raiding only because of greed. You hate your neighbour who has a ferrari only because you don't have a ferrari. Even tho you don't need one at all.
Really? I thought I hated raiding because of the immense time commitment and the monotony. But it seems you know me better than I know me - so yeah must be greed.
i actully hate large scale raiding because it normally leads to elitism. to be honest i could care less about haveing the best ubber gear in the game, why cause i dont really care about the whole e-pean thing.
to be honest if more raids where casual friendly and FUN, instead of you have to do this this exact way with this exact build, then id prob like them more, but even if devs try to make them that way its the players that tend to cause this effect.
their is only one game that did end game raids that was friendly to both casuals and hardcore players at the same time, and didnt have the eliteist fill to it, but its dead now so meh.
Elitism and time commitment exist and will exist in mmorpgs either you have raids or dont. This also exist in real life ... so whats the problem?
Casuals hate raiding only because of greed. You hate your neighbour who has a ferrari only because you don't have a ferrari. Even tho you don't need one at all.
Really? I thought I hated raiding because of the immense time commitment and the monotony. But it seems you know me better than I know me - so yeah must be greed.
i actully hate large scale raiding because it normally leads to elitism. to be honest i could care less about haveing the best ubber gear in the game, why cause i dont really care about the whole e-pean thing.
to be honest if more raids where casual friendly and FUN, instead of you have to do this this exact way with this exact build, then id prob like them more, but even if devs try to make them that way its the players that tend to cause this effect.
their is only one game that did end game raids that was friendly to both casuals and hardcore players at the same time, and didnt have the eliteist fill to it, but its dead now so meh.
Elitism and time commitment exist and will exist in mmorpgs either you have raids or dont. This also exist in real life ... so whats the problem?
How could one argue with such profound logic and thought process?
I have been semi-following Wildstar with some interest. I don't mind if any game has raids as long as they have some other form of end game for people who do not like to raid or group with others. I do not like my gameplay being forced on to me. Raid or dungeon or your character won't get any better. I don't mind grinding for money, or gear, or crafting materials, or whatever else, but let me do it on my owm, how I want, and when I want. If people want to raid for their gear, cool.. have fun. If someone wants to just farm mobs for 4 hours to get the materials to craft a piece of raid-level gear, they should be able to do that too.
People say if you can get raid-level gear yourself, nobody will raid. I don't know if that is true, but if it is, what does that tell you about how many people actually LIKE to raid then? I don't have any statistics, but in my experience and as my own opinion, I think most people raid because it is pretty much the ONLY way to make their character(s) *better*. I also don't have any hard evidence that people play longer if they are forced to group because of the social aspect of the game, but it is definitely not that way for me. Every game I have ever stopped playing had nothing to do with being "lonely", but I just got bored, and I got bored because there was nothing to do BUT raid and dungeon grind which held no interest for me after doing it for years.
I think the next MMO that becomes a "WoW Killer" will have something for everyone. The social players, the solo-ers, the hardcore players, the casuals, everyone. I really don't understand why this is so hard to do. A lot of the content that would keep people playing doesn't have to be resource intensive content like raids, and new zones, it could be focused on housing or some sort of alternate ability grind like in EQ. Even at max level, if I go out and kill mobs, my character should be getting *better* somehow. Again, the AA system in EQ was perfect, and this was done 14-ish years ago and yet I have not seen anything like it since.
WoW dumped 40 man raids for a reason: the players demanded it.
You can NOT base a large part of the game(and lets not kid ourselves here, raiding will be a large part of Wilstar's endgame) that is aimed solely at the hardcore elitist player.
The hardcore elitist may complain that MMOs dont cater to them, then well the answer to that is: be more than 10% of the game's population.
I just hope that it doesnt take another Naxxramas debacle for Carbine to see that 40 man raids is not a viable endgame option.
WoW dumped 40 man raids for a reason: the players demanded it.
You can NOT base a large part of the game(and lets not kid ourselves here, raiding will be a large part of Wilstar's endgame) that is aimed solely at the hardcore elitist player.
The hardcore elitist may complain that MMOs dont cater to them, then well the answer to that is: be more than 10% of the game's population.
I just hope that it doesnt take another Naxxramas debacle for Carbine to see that 40 man raids is not a viable endgame option.
WoW is trying to get people into raiding that wern't interested in the first place by going the 40m > 25m > 10m > LFR route. It didn't had so much to do with players demanding it. Blizzard just wanted more people to see the content and thus they tried to make it more accesible.
Im interested to see what wildstar can do at this front
Naxxramas 40m was endgame raiding just like 25m sunwell was... why don't you complain about that
Casuals hate raiding only because of greed. You hate your neighbour who has a ferrari only because you don't have a ferrari. Even tho you don't need one at all.
Really? I thought I hated raiding because of the immense time commitment and the monotony. But it seems you know me better than I know me - so yeah must be greed.
i actully hate large scale raiding because it normally leads to elitism. to be honest i could care less about haveing the best ubber gear in the game, why cause i dont really care about the whole e-pean thing.
to be honest if more raids where casual friendly and FUN, instead of you have to do this this exact way with this exact build, then id prob like them more, but even if devs try to make them that way its the players that tend to cause this effect.
their is only one game that did end game raids that was friendly to both casuals and hardcore players at the same time, and didnt have the eliteist fill to it, but its dead now so meh.
This is the challenge for the Wildstar devs.
Whats that? A threat, that if they comply with what the casuals want the game will be 'dead'?
Originally posted by tintilinic
Originally posted by Dogblaster
Elitism and time commitment exist and will exist in mmorpgs either you have raids or dont. This also exist in real life ... so whats the problem?
So we have to copy all very bad things from RL to computer games? Even distort it to be worse than in RL? And then wonder why they fail one by one?
Copy? Just because you are behind a computer screen doesn't mean you are any less human. You area flawed human, and you experience emotions such as envy.
So far I like most stuff I hear about Wildstar and will probably give it a try, BUT I have to agree with people who say that going for 40man raids was a terrible , terrible idea.
Comments
I know what you mean, having higher goals to aim for (and I don't just mean better gear) is something I've felt is missing from many recent MMOs that just end up being treadmills because, well, everything is easy (read: mindless); hopefully 20 and 40 man raids in WS can start to change that, and hopefully the devs (and publishers) can hold their nerve long enough for more people to realise this.
Really? I thought I hated raiding because of the immense time commitment and the monotony. But it seems you know me better than I know me - so yeah must be greed.
i actully hate large scale raiding because it normally leads to elitism. to be honest i could care less about haveing the best ubber gear in the game, why cause i dont really care about the whole e-pean thing.
to be honest if more raids where casual friendly and FUN, instead of you have to do this this exact way with this exact build, then id prob like them more, but even if devs try to make them that way its the players that tend to cause this effect.
their is only one game that did end game raids that was friendly to both casuals and hardcore players at the same time, and didnt have the eliteist fill to it, but its dead now so meh.
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
This. 100% agree.
This is the challenge for the Wildstar devs.
i dont care about elitists and i dont see them as something that affecting my game. if i dont like them i wont join such a guild or play with such ppl.
i also like non casual raiding. hard core is my taste even if sometimes i dont have either the skill or time to be competitive. thats what i call FUN. knowing that there is more to see. things that only a small % of players will challenge. even if i m not in that percentage in the end, i like to know that its there and waiting for me. thats the only way i can feel EPIC in a game. at least thats me
Actually, speaking for myself I would be quite satisfied with a fresh sci-fi style IP makeover for a WoW style game. Especially if that game included updated game mechanics to make it feel even fresher, but enough familiarity to make it feel approachable. Generouds doses of humour would be icing on the cake.
The original trailer with the bunny eared chick and the guy on the monocycle didn't grab me. The latest trailers of Wildstar are getting my attention more and more. I'm starting to feel a tingling in my fanboi loins. This could be my next MMO.
News that it will support raiding and grouping and have tanking/healing/support/dps roles just makes it sound even sexier.
Now if they can just get the teamwork, pacing and challenge levels right it could be a helluva fun timesink.
1 I agree but raids do need rewards. I am fine with epic looking items rather than stats. Or other stuff that helps in raids. It could even be %increase to pve bosses.
2 Sometimes I guess. But raiders tend to put more time then average than other types of players and thus they do tend to be parts of the vocal minority.
3 DPS checks are a way to gate content to force farming other content to pass it. The Naxxaramus WoW instance famously had Patchwork be a huge gear check where you had to farm the rest of the dungeon to progress. This forces more time to be spent in raids and lets raids fufill their core fucntion...a time sink that has a visible end to it.
4 Not every raid has to be a gear check nor should they be. They do have their place though (It does not even have to be something that adds damage in other places. Imagine a planar boss where you had to collect materials from other bosses to craft gear that does extra damage to planar bosses. Thus you can have the core fucntion of gear check without impacting other parts of the game with it.
5 See 3 and 4.
6 Raiding is something to do with a lot of time. Casuals tend to not be raiders because most guilds that are willing to teach someone raid strategies are not willing to keep training new people over and over and will perfer someone who can be there more often. I would love to see ways to change this that is not something like LFR tools. Additionally, raiders generally consume all solo content on top of raiding and tend to like more solo content as long as there is more raiding content to do. It is a very fine line to walk to always have new raiding content. If the end boss can be cleared you would be suprsied at how many people drop their subscription/play time until the next level of content is released.
8 Hordecore players do a lot more per person than a casual player to promote the game. While casual players may outnumber hardcore players in the market, to insinuate that content has to be focused on just one group is kinda ludicrous. The secret is to appease both crowds. If hardcore raiding stopped existing in WoW I guarantee you it would be a shadow of its peak and current status.
9 Raiding content is innately more challenging due to coordination among many people. There are more variables and more things that you as a raid group can change in order to meet your goal. There is a limit to how much challenge you can put in single player content. While yes there can be extremely non challenging raid content, the upper possible limit of challenge while still able to be completed is higher in a raid.
I agree with an earlier poster, as exciting as 40 man raids sound, the reality in today's market is that getting 40 skilled players to do anything is almost impossible. I too see this as a fail.
I also agree with the comment that the emphasis for endgame seems to be leaning towards raiding and pvp, like all the other aaa mmo titles in the last 5 years. This concerns me as I am a solo player. I do not mind including raiding or pvp but that is not my playing style. For me the idea of a solo endgame of some kind was one of the real draws of Wildstar. The game is not even in beta yet so I am not terribly concerned. I just don't want this to be one of the items on the cutting floor when the game releases.
At least (I hope!) they will have a REALLY cool housing system - judging from the video. SO awesome!
1. And thats fine. Though thats not whant many want, and thats what majority feels it wont happen but it will go ol' same route.
2. no they dont. This isnt 2001.
3. Sure its a time skink. A time sink >95% skipped in vanilla WoW. I thought people have actually learned from that, but seems not, some still live in dream land and are stuck in "gold ol' EQ days".
Guys, its 2013 and we know helluva lot more than in 2000, care to join us in the present?
4. Of course it doesnt have to be, but since its most convenient and easy for the devs...kind of lazy mode....but its also most transparent and obvious and (mojority of) people have rejected it. There are plenty other ways to gate content, but it bils down to very vocal ultra minority that is hapring "stats, stats, stats"
5. See 3 and 4
6. Casuals tend to do raids when they can actually access them. And since casuals are vast majority, since you actually want to keep em happy its pretty obvious what you have to do. There has to be some hardcore content, but in the end hardcore is a dying breed.
And if someone wonders, 2 cant really coexist in parallel. If you tune for hardcore you screw casual, if you tune for casual you screw hardcore. And, since we already mentioned it, 80%+ are casuals...
8. 2 cannot coexist. Period. Its proven time and time again. Its proven time and time again WoW is an anomaly in most things. Just ask all the folks of failed WoW clones. Or just look at Rift.
9. No it isnt. Its actually much easier on individual to be achievable, and you can make solo content much more challenging than any raid. Its just some self emtitlement from these "raiders" that domehow let them say "im>you" and "my challenge>yours" when i reality its pretty much hogwash.
The challenge is different though, thats what most people fail to grasp.
Though its understandable since few past games tend to really nurture those and conditioned these players on that, but then, its time to face the reality. Its also has to do with loss of status of raiding as "elite" activity. But its pretty much nonsensical to impose such artificial elitism. Its fuuny to see some...people..."i raid noe im ELITE!" eh...no youre not, lol and thus elitism is born and elitism hurts the game.
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Dont get mo wrong, im hardcore and was raider but too many people put their emotions and preferences before whats best for the game. Some facts cannot be denied and its stupid to deny them.
Just in GW2 forums some guy claimed game has very little content, while also claimed he logged 1550 hours in 4 months in which he "finished" the game. So, enlighten us all and give magic formula how to please both hardcore and casual at the same time. And yah, "middle gorund" screwes both.
And, btw, they said they want to make raids different on weekly basis, that may be a step in the right direction, but we still have to see how it will work (and will it actually be that way)
I am really glad to see 40 man raids made for most hardcore players.
FINALLY
Elitism and time commitment exist and will exist in mmorpgs either you have raids or dont. This also exist in real life ... so whats the problem?
So we have to copy all very bad things from RL to computer games? Even distort it to be worse than in RL? And then wonder why they fail one by one?
How could one argue with such profound logic and thought process?
I have been semi-following Wildstar with some interest. I don't mind if any game has raids as long as they have some other form of end game for people who do not like to raid or group with others. I do not like my gameplay being forced on to me. Raid or dungeon or your character won't get any better. I don't mind grinding for money, or gear, or crafting materials, or whatever else, but let me do it on my owm, how I want, and when I want. If people want to raid for their gear, cool.. have fun. If someone wants to just farm mobs for 4 hours to get the materials to craft a piece of raid-level gear, they should be able to do that too.
People say if you can get raid-level gear yourself, nobody will raid. I don't know if that is true, but if it is, what does that tell you about how many people actually LIKE to raid then? I don't have any statistics, but in my experience and as my own opinion, I think most people raid because it is pretty much the ONLY way to make their character(s) *better*. I also don't have any hard evidence that people play longer if they are forced to group because of the social aspect of the game, but it is definitely not that way for me. Every game I have ever stopped playing had nothing to do with being "lonely", but I just got bored, and I got bored because there was nothing to do BUT raid and dungeon grind which held no interest for me after doing it for years.
I think the next MMO that becomes a "WoW Killer" will have something for everyone. The social players, the solo-ers, the hardcore players, the casuals, everyone. I really don't understand why this is so hard to do. A lot of the content that would keep people playing doesn't have to be resource intensive content like raids, and new zones, it could be focused on housing or some sort of alternate ability grind like in EQ. Even at max level, if I go out and kill mobs, my character should be getting *better* somehow. Again, the AA system in EQ was perfect, and this was done 14-ish years ago and yet I have not seen anything like it since.
--Sagorn
Focusing on any PvE as endgame-content is pretty boring after a short while.
I guess that most people will look for endgame-content in the contested areas, if Wildstar gets it right.
WoW dumped 40 man raids for a reason: the players demanded it.
You can NOT base a large part of the game(and lets not kid ourselves here, raiding will be a large part of Wilstar's endgame) that is aimed solely at the hardcore elitist player.
The hardcore elitist may complain that MMOs dont cater to them, then well the answer to that is: be more than 10% of the game's population.
I just hope that it doesnt take another Naxxramas debacle for Carbine to see that 40 man raids is not a viable endgame option.
WoW is trying to get people into raiding that wern't interested in the first place by going the 40m > 25m > 10m > LFR route.
It didn't had so much to do with players demanding it. Blizzard just wanted more people to see the content and thus they tried to make it more accesible.
Im interested to see what wildstar can do at this front
Naxxramas 40m was endgame raiding just like 25m sunwell was... why don't you complain about that
Whats that? A threat, that if they comply with what the casuals want the game will be 'dead'?
Copy? Just because you are behind a computer screen doesn't mean you are any less human. You area flawed human, and you experience emotions such as envy.
There is no 'fix' for this!
The bigger the raid the more i actually wanna do it.
Small scale raiding just doesnt have that "Epic" feeling to me.
"Negaholics are people who become addicted to negativity and self-doubt, they find fault in most things and never seem to be satisfied."
^MMORPG.com