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So what you're suggesting, OP, is that game designers should clone WoW even more than they have been?
I'm not sure that's such a great idea... I certainly wouldn't want to play yet another WoW clone.
Also, why on earth would you put Tera on the same level as EQ and WoW. Both of those games made video gaming history. Tera on the other hand is but a minor blimp on the video gaming timeline that will be swiftly forgotten.
Blizzard never went out with the expectations of pulling in 10 million players plus, that was an unexpected phenomenon, the problem we have now is that every developer wants the same success and expects it or just wants a piece of the pie. No MMO regardless of how great it is will NEVER have the player numbers that WoW had.
The number of people that play MMO's have never changed dramaticly over the past 5 yrs, what we do have is a saturation of MMO's in various forms, subscription, f2p, browser based, and co-operative hub based. Whether you call them MMO's or not there are over 700 listed on this site alone, this site only accounts for a small percentage of users that plays any of the games listed.
MMO's with investors will be looking for a bigger target audience than developers like SE and Blizzard as they need to make a faster return on their investment, hence the reason Blizzard and SE have never gone f2p, subscriptions go directly into their own pocket.
Originally posted by Prepared Originally posted by acidblood So then WildStar will finally be the WoW killer? It has a similar art style. It has the same (or better) sense of not being too serious. It appears to have a similarly varied and interesting world (size is still unknown...) It has fluid and intuitive combat; easy to learn, hard to master. It has PvP servers (though no explicit open world objectives), Battlegrounds, Arenas and Warplots to boot It has all sorts of PvE 'layered content' from traditional quests to dynamic events It has awesome player housing, so big plus on WoW there It has UI mods; built from the ground up to support them and make them easy to create It has 20 and 40 man raids It has 5 man instances It has mounts It uses the trinity, but also offers a good range of play styles per class It has, well a bunch of other stuff I'm probably forgetting or don't know about yet In short, WildStar looks like a new and in most cases much improved version of WoW.. so will it kill WoW? I doubt it, as while I agree with the op (the 'next WoW' must include everything WoW has and more), there are two things any new MMO can not include that WoW has.. the players characters and the timing of it's launch.
The short answer is no, it won't kill WoW because you've already mentioned things that WoW has that it doesn't. When "everything" is stated, it means literally "everything" with exception of character models and world layout which can't be there because of law. But everything else can. It's lacking 10 and 25 man raids from your list, however 20 man raids will probably be popular if the game takes off. It's lacking no open world objective where a faction can take on another faction city boss while the defending faction can form a defending raid. That should be allowed even on non-pvp servers.
There is not enough information about game play from the WildStar web site or I would comment further. I did get a kick out of the "What is WIldStar" youtube video though. That was pretty cool. You're right it mentions a lot of the things that are in WoW but it doesn't look like it includes everything. Some questions I'd ask of the game are:
1. Does it have a macro system?
2. Does it have addon support?
3. Can the User Interface be customized and how far can it go?
4. What is the charge for the game and what kinds of things are charged for in the game?
5. Does doing PvP reward the player with better PvP gear? And likewise does doing PvE reward the player with better PvE gear? In other words, are there separate paths to take for two separate types of gear for PvE and PvP?
oh man, macro system is pure garbage and so is addon support... it turns the game into a mindless mash-button-fest, if anything it takes out the fun.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."-------------------------------
Here is a simple why:
Most people talk about the goood old days (old MMo) stuff like:
you dont know how that felt
those days were aowsome ,..... etc
notice the coloring, but am saying most (some still find it amaizing), i dont blame them they love thire MMos
But and that is a big Butt :
they alway and always feel that every new mmo has to give them the First time MMo feeling, they dont relaize that they will never feel the same never ever.
that is why most MMo dont have the success (am not gona say wow here but instaed Older mmo had), its baiscly the people not the game most of the times
Originally posted by Cod_Eye No MMO regardless of how great it is will NEVER have the player numbers that WoW had.
Never ever ever? Not even 200 years from now when the world population is ten times what it is now and we all have a wifi antenna implanted in our brain?
Also beware double negatives, they have the nasty habit of saying the exact opposite of what you're trying to say.
Originally posted by Cod_Eye No MMO regardless of how great it is will NEVER have the player numbers that WoW had.
On the other hand, I play EVE for almost 10y now, it is still growing, NOTHING like WOW, and I play in a game with more players then WOW ever had on 1 server. ^^
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Originally posted by Pie_Rat Originally posted by Cod_Eye No MMO regardless of how great it is will NEVER have the player numbers that WoW had.
Winter is coming, so no. :P
WoW is the best mmorpg ever.
Stay salty friends.
At WoWs launch I was an EQ veteran, it was my first MMO and I have since been hooked on the genre.
As Phelcher mentioned the OP is just flat out wrong as to why people left EQ. WoW has never, at any point in it's life, had more content than EQ and certainly not at launch. EQ was and still is a huge game (granted like WoW though most is usually empty).
WoW became popular because...
1) The internet boom. Always on, high speed internet was not widely available before and was not by far the norm. Prior games had been designed around bandwith that people wouldn't tolerate nowadays on a phone. This changed around the time of WoWs release.
2) Bugs. As buggy as WoW may have been on it's launch it ran significantly better in general for far less power than many if not all the older games for a far better graphical profile. It may have done less than the older titles but it it did it with less hassle (better UI, more polish in general).
3) Ease of use. As people have said since it's inception, WoW is casual friendly and that is by far the largest playerbase for ANY game. It's requirements are low and easily affordable. At release it's newer 'next gen' competition opted for high end graphics (which require equally high end systems - EQ2 max graphics at release? At a playable framerate? Forget it for the vast majority).
4) Brand name. People love brands. People loved Diablo, Warcraft 1, 2 and 3. People loved Blizzard as they had a reputation for making good fun games and at least showing some care for their customers. SOE was seen in a different light (comically how many people now see Blizzard).
5) Public perception. Gaming was becoming more mainstream. It was no longer being seen as the silly habit of kids in basements.
There are more reasons but these are the main ones in my opinion.
As to why it's kept going as the juggernaut it is? I would guess popularity. Popularity breeds popularity.
WoW is a great game, I really enjoyed my time there and don't see it going anywhere any time soon, especially since most releases now are trying to copy it for fear of the risks of trying something new in the current market.
The competition needs to come up with something new or aim for a niche market and stop chasing the WoW subscriber figures. The newer games don't have the luck and shrewd timing of WoWs launch, the popularity or the budget so why they think they can overcome or equal it by doing the same after over a decade of trying and failing is baffling, moreso when there is an army of people looking for something new. You won't out-WoW WoW.
As people have said before, and as I suspect even Blizzard believe... WoW was an anomoly, a convergence of multiple factors at just the right time to give us what we have and something we may never see again or at least not for a long, long time.
It certainly took WoW longer to build to 3 million than GW2 and by that standard, if growth remains exponential, it could certainly surpass WoW, though I doubt it.
And the idea of WoW's success isn't extending. WoW is dying, me and all my friends but one have left and that one begs us to return because he says finding a raiding guild is next to impossible, even jumping servers. He tells us masses of high end raid guilds spend their time in the newb zones just to court people who are trying new servers to get enough people to raid with and some servers are virtually empty. That to me signifies a dying game.
Originally posted by korent1991 oh man, macro system is pure garbage and so is addon support... it turns the game into a mindless mash-button-fest, if anything it takes out the fun.
A well-managed addon system is fine, but yeah macro support tends to be a strong net-negative for a game. I suppose if it was managed the same way as a good addon system (inability to set up automated rotations) then it would be fine. It's only when you let the macro play the game that it becomes really dumb.
"And here, according to Trout, was the reason human beings could not reject ideas because they were bad...[continue]" -Kurt Vonnegut
Unlike most, I reject bad ideas because they're bad and accept good ideas because they're good, and it doesn't matter who's saying it; only the truth matters.
Invading other races cities (though come to think of it I haven't heard any mention of cities in WS) will be possible, as in as far as I know the rule sets are very similar to WoW... i.e. no instanced only versions of other races areas BS like in TESO. There simply aren't any overt (by which I mean quest like) world PvP objectives, i.e. world PvP for fun like in Vanilla WoW.
Yes we are missing some information about WS but...
1. Probably... given the UI mod support it's hard to imagine they won't have macros, but I've yet to see it comfirmed.
2 and 3. Again probably... They have said a number of times that there will be extensive UI mod support, with members of the dev team (not just UI devs) regularly making mods for parts of their UI... whether it will support addons to the point of threat meters, raid warnings, etc. is yet to be seen.
4. Unknown, given the type of game etc. I imagine it will be P2P, or B2P at the least. Cash shop is totally unknown; have not seen any comments either way. Subscription pricing etc. is also unknown but don't see it being more than WoW.
5. Maybe... like I said there will be Arenas and such, so PvP gear is not hard to imagine, but whether that means PvP specific stats or not I don't know. They have said there will be a system that normalises gear in organised PvP (arenas, battlegrounds, etc.), so maybe PvP specific gear is not needed, but gear could still be a reward for PvP.
Originally posted by Miblet There are more reasons but these are the main ones in my opinion.
"More reasons" would include being the most fun MMORPG on the market, right?
The only one of your reasons that slightly matters to me is the known brand, because prior Warcraft games had been a ton of fun (although War3 was a bit shaky.)
But that reason wouldn't have stopped me fro moving on to another, superior MMORPG -- if such a game existed. I've tried an awful lot of MMORPGs at this point, and with rare exceptions like CoH and RIFT nobody really came close to the pure fun of playing that WOW offered (and still offers.)
I'm as fickle a gamer as any: the moment a superior game comes out, that's where I'll be. The problem has been that no MMORPGs have actually played as well as WOW.
I hate to break it to the OP, but GW2 has been a much bigger success at it's six month mark than WoW was at it's six month mark. Box sales AND revenue for GW2 are higher.
I think people forget that it took WoW steady progress over a period of years to become the juggernaut it became.
GW2 has become an exception among MMOs released since WoW in that it continues to grow it's playerbase, revenues and player concurrency numbers over time. I think Arenanet has floundered a bit since launch, content creation seems very inefficient and there have been some head scratchingly bad design decisions. However, if they can correct course, the game still has the very real potential to be a $1Billion+ title, (revenue), over the course of it's run.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Originally posted by Axehilt Originally posted by Miblet There are more reasons but these are the main ones in my opinion.
fun to you, but how about the others?
Nope, still not tired of making accounts.
Originally posted by Prepared Why newer MMOs have not had the success WoW has had since WoW's release on November 23, 2004: Why did half of the player base of Everquest leave and play WoW in 2004?? And further, why did hardly any players leave WoW to play Tera? The answer is simple, but almost no game developers seem to understand the answer. And another question: Why did hardly any players leave WoW to play any other MMORPG when they were released? WoW won't be dying because newer MMOs that don't offer everything that WoW offers and give more. That's why players left Everquest. WoW had everything it had plus more. Newer MMOs that offer a different play style won't take very much from WoW nor will they be any huge success like WoW has been. Newer MMOs that offer different content also won't take anything away from WoW. Why? It's simple, they don't offer everything that WoW has. That's the start of any MMO that wants to be the king of MMOs. Offer everything in WoW. Must include EVERYTHING such as things that a lot of players or developers won't consider such as macros, addons, different level rewards in different PvP encounters, different level rewards in different end game raid encounters. All of the things that WoW offers must be included in any game that is going to take it head-on and claim to be the new king. If the new MMO is just "different", it's not going to do much in terms of taking the player base away from WoW nor gain the same level of success that WoW has had. Some examples of how games released in recent years could have been the new king: 1. Guild Wars 2 - If it had the things it has in it now such as dynamic events, hearts (which are essentially quests where you don't have to go see someone (but you could if you wanted to get more information on the story involved with the heart) PLUS on top of the things it has now, it included a three faction system instead of a two faction system such as WoW, included the ability to attack any of the other factions cities by killing NPCs or any player that flagged for PvP, included the trinity system (tank, dps, heal) - because the non-trinity system doesn't work in a strategy-based raid encounter. In other words, if it had everything that WoW had, but additionally, it had dynamic events, theme set in Tyria with dragon bosses, and other things that it has plus it has no monthly subscription? It would have taken over the world (of warcraft). Instead, it had no duels, no faction based world pvp, no coordinated strategic raids, the list goes on... 2. Tera - Offers a new combat system in addition to the traditional things such as questing, etc. If in addition to the new combat system where the player targets by using a mouse reticle, it included the option of using a tab target system that the player could choose by menu options, this would allow players that liked the tab target system instead of being locked into the way the game developer wants the player base to play their game. As mentioned before, it would have had to include all of the game play options such as world PvP, PvP rewards and end game raids that WoW has. 3. Star Wars the Old Republic (SWTOR) - This MMO has a lot of what WoW offers but not everything. Additionally, things were not implemented very well in some areas. It is as if the game wasn't polished and the developers intent was good, just not executed well. If SWTOR had every single thing that WoW had and it was implemented well, it would have taken away a huge number of players from WoW. Not only the ones that left WoW when SWTOR was released, but it would have taken more in later months when word got out the game was good. Unfortunately that didn't happen and it backfired on them and many left the game either to go back to WoW or to some other game then back to WoW. Why do WoW clones fail? Easy answer: They don't include everything that WoW offers. They offer some of the things that WoW has, but not everything. When I state "everything", I'm talking about everything. All functionality of how factions fight each other, end game raids, world pvp that involves invading another factions cities for an achievement, etc. Why play another game even if it is free if it has less features (or options - whatever term you want to use) than a game that a player is already playing that the player is paying for? The common player won't switch if it doesn't include everything in the game currently being played at a minimum. Prior players of WoW also use the base game play style they used in WoW as their basis for newer MMOs. Why? Simple really, it has the most options. The features I've mentioned here are not inclusive of everything that WoW offers in its game. There are many others such as macros, addons, customization of game play screens through those addons to extend game play options. Auto run, auto follow, targeting of group members for buffs (boons) or heals. New MMOs which lock the players into a specific style of game play that the developers believe is the best will stop the full potential of what the game could have been if it didn't have the lock on it. Will Elder Scrolls Online include everything WoW offers? A resounding HELL NO. It's not even some what close! The developers of that game are going about the development of it similar to the way ArenaNet did with Guild Wars 2. That is, they are trying to come up with new ways of playing their game which locks in the player base to playing how they want their players to play it. By not including features and options, they believe it will be better than a game which has an extended list of options. So the question is, how many people will play Elder Scrolls Online on its "Megaserver"? Most of the Elder Scrolls fans will give it a try I'm sure. Some other MMO fans will give it a try as well but it will not be any where near the success of WoW. Guild Wars 2 has lost a substantial number of players within its first few months. Sure there are some still playing but most have left for other games and some went back to WoW. I predict a similar scenario happening with Elder Scrolls Online where the hype will draw a lot of interest but will fall by the way side as players are left wondering where the options (features/functionality/endgame whatever you want to call how the game can be played) are. Based on viewing many different interviews with directors of different departments from Zenimax Online Studios, the game will be lacking in many areas most notably the combat system which appears to be very different from WoW, but doesn't include the different options of play style that WoW has. It appears to be the way Tera works with a targeting system that doesn't have tab or other keys to taget the opponent. It appears to have a very good 3 faction system which is far better than a two faction system in terms of PvP so that's a plus over WoW. Will Final Fantasy XIV A Realm Reborn have all of the features that WoW has and more? Only time will tell. It appears to have a good start at least because the man driving the entire development process made the statement that the intent is to include features of WoW. That's the beginning of creating a great game that will unseat the champion of all MMOs. Without that as the foundation for further development, new MMOs that start out different won't have as much success that WoW has. Will Neverwinter Online have all of the features that WoW has? Another resounding HELL NO! Although it's an MMO that touts to be free, based on the game play videos on youtube, it appears to be more like a combination of Tera and Diablo 3 than anything else. It has a targeting system similar to Tera and what happened with Tera? Why didn't it become the new WoW killer? Once again the answer is simple, it didn't include all of the game play options that WoW has. It locked the player into a specific style of game play where the targeting system is different from WoW and some players like that, but it doesn't include many of the game play options that WoW has. Will Everquest Next be as successful as WoW? It appears this new game from Sony Online Entertainment will be a sandbox style of game with cutting edge graphics. That's fine as long as it includes all of the things that WoW currently has which is PvP battlegrounds, different level rewards, factions which allow players to invade main cities and kill NPCs which may spark large scale combat between players on different sides. It should include tab targetting as well as target reticle with the mouse. Any game play style or game play option that WoW currently has which it does not offer will reduce the player base by the number of players which like that style of game play. The bottom line: The MMO that has the most options in terms of game play for hardcore gamers, for casual gamers, for anyone with a variety of game features will be the clear winner. Of course a good story (lore), good graphics, smooth combat, (production quality) need to be there, but right now WoW is the clear winner because it has the most options. Develop an MMO which includes all of WoW's options and give it more and you'll beat it! Develop an MMO which is different from WoW and doesn't include all of WoW's options, it won't beat it in terms of success. How is success measured? How many people are playing the MMO?
Well I did not like wow, only played till level cap witch was at that time 60.
I think mmo's will change even more in the near future than they have in paast few years,not goin to say why I think so since it would couse a boring debat here.
I disagree op, and most people here are just throwing metrics left and right. While those metrcis are a factor why WOW became popular, somehow nobody seem to look at the game in isolation. Why is it that it can draw in people like no other game can. There are many reasons, but I'll give two of main reasons.
1. If you look at Call of Duty, Battlefield 3, Halo and WOW, they have one thing in common, the combat system, they feel 100% correct for what they are trying to achieve, very few games can pull that off. (Note: Im not talking about balance, just the core mechanics).
2. When you log into WOW it feels like a world, and not just a game that you are going to waste some time with, and it holds up all the way to the end.
Anyway, my point is that most people seem to credit a lot of other factors for WOWs success, and totally forget that the core game is truly great.
Ps. I quit WOW over a year ago. Ds
All the MMOs i tried can't compare to WOW in smoothnes. The movement response is perfect in WOW. You feel in control of the character and at ease in the world. Everything feels natural and smooth.
Other MMOs you are fighting with the controls, everything is clunky and "not right".
A honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi The biggest point that OP has overlooked, is that the IP has been out since 1990's with WarCraft 1 , since then Blizaard has had a following of over 50 million people before WoW even launched. Do pretend that blizzard developed an amazing mmorpg that people "left" othe games for is assinine. The fact that Lineage 2 and shadowbane pulled a lot of EQ players also seems to have escaped the OP;s thread. Blizzards numbers are world wide, which again, they have had a foothold since the 90;s.
What I was thinking about Blizzard in 2006:
Originally posted by Bigmac1910 I disagree op, and most people here are just throwing metrics left and right. While those metrcis are a factor why WOW became popular, somehow nobody seem to look at the game in isolation. Why is it that it can draw in people like no other game can. There are many reasons, but I'll give two of main reasons. 1. If you look at Call of Duty, Battlefield 3, Halo and WOW, they have one thing in common, the combat system, they feel 100% correct for what they are trying to achieve, very few games can pull that off. (Note: Im not talking about balance, just the core mechanics). 2. When you log into WOW it feels like a world, and not just a game that you are going to waste some time with, and it holds up all the way to the end. Anyway, my point is that most people seem to credit a lot of other factors for WOWs success, and totally forget that the core game is truly great. Ps. I quit WOW over a year ago. Ds
I agree with you and it doesnt matter if quit or are still playing the truth is the truth. WoW takes a lot of bashing on these forums for no other reason than it is popular. Thats it. It gets blamed for everything that is wrong with MMOs today. Never getitng any credit for what it did and still continues to do right.
For years we have heard the fanboys of one game or another cry that this new game is going to be the "wow killer" and its not dead yet. Contrary to what some people would have you believe. Some people just don't get it. Just because you don't like WoW does not mean you are in the majority. Maybe on these forums but this place is hardly a representation of the majority of MMO players. If it was WoW would have been dead years ago.
I don't know what server that other poster or his friend were on but I can tell you on my very slow (and it has always been low pop) server the power guilds are NOT recruiting in the noob zone. Does that even make sense to anyone? Seriously? There are still over 9 million people with active WoW accounts and they can't find anyone other than in the noob zone? In a game that is supposedly dieing do you really think that is the best place to recruit? How many new players or players trying a new server are you going to find in a 8 year old game 6 months after an expansion? Im sorry but that just doesn't add up at all.
Blaming WoW for what other developers do and hating them for making a quality MMO that really caught on with people doesn't make any sense. It is not Blizzards fault your type of MMO is not being made. It's not their fault that all of these other developers want a piece of the WoW money. The players voted with their wallets. There have been some strong IP's that failed to beat or even compete with WoW. It's a solid game. Maybe not to your liking but it is solid.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
There's no magic ingredient that made WoW so popular, it was a freak of nature. No MMO will see that level of success, not even the next one from Blizz.
WoW was a one off. It's not that amazing a game either. It just came out at the right time, had a good, solid Warcraft fanbase, and released with minor difficulties.
Don't expect lightning to strike twice.