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Is it even possible to make an F2p without selling advatages?

gessekai332gessekai332 New York City, NYPosts: 877Member Common

F2p games always seem to degrade iinto one of two things:

 

1) p2win or p2get ahead (selling gear with good stats or selling exp boosts).

2) RNG gambling aka pay for a random chance to get some p2win item or advantage (keys for treasure boxes, lockboxes, or crafting success enhancements)

 

Is it possible to make an F2P where you dont result in ultimately granting a person an advantage?

Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)

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Comments

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member

    I know it's possible because I played Street Gears and the only thing you could buy was outfits, cosmetic items.

    But all other F2P games I played are ,for all intended purpose, Pay2Win games. I think it's purely greed tbh.

  • gessekai332gessekai332 New York City, NYPosts: 877Member Common
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    I know it's possible because I played Street Gears and the only thing you could buy was outfits, cosmetic items.

    But all other F2P games are ,for all intended purpose, Pay2Win games. I think it's purely greed tbh.

    i feel like only league of legends was the only f2p ive ever played that didnt leave a bitter taste in my mouth. whenever i bought something in that game i felt that it 1) was worth the money, 2) wasnt cheating, 3) was rewarding the developer for providing me with an enjoyable game.  All other f2p games always went the quick greed route into trying to trick me into giving them money (RNG treasure boxes) or forcing me to give them money (p2win). these such games onl provided me with 2 months of game time tops before i quit and never looked back because i was so bitter towards them for cheating me.

    Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by gessekai332

    F2p games always seem to degrade iinto one of two things:

     

    1) p2win or p2get ahead (selling gear with good stats or selling exp boosts).

    2) RNG gambling aka pay for a random chance to get some p2win item or advantage (keys for treasure boxes, lockboxes, or crafting success enhancements)

     

    Is it possible to make an F2P where you dont result in ultimately granting a person an advantage?

    Not really, there usually needs to be an advantage of sorts (XP, earning potential or something else) to make people want to pay. There are ways around this such as Cryptic's take of allowing you to trade for cash shop items/currency with other players while maintaining the items at a tolerable level ( example in  STO: you can get say the original enterprize as a low level grinding ship which works well for the first dozen or so levels but it doesn't offer a advantage over normal ships you purchase at the same level, same goes with the level cap store ships, they're good but they're not as good as the fleet issue ships which you can get in-game).

    image
  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,187Member Uncommon

    Is it possible to make a p2p sub-locked game without selling advantage?  If you don't buy the latest xpac you're at a disadvantage.  If you don't pay them monthly you can't even play the game at all and will fall behind your peers.  All sub-locked games have a secondary revenue system that allows some players an advantage as well.

    How about raid and dungeon time locks?  That is the key to p2p using time, the currency of sub-locked systems, to generate further revenue by keeping players playing and paying longer.

    In a sub-locked game people claim that eveyrone is on even footing, but we know that's not true.  If you join EVE, WoW, Rift, or any other sub-locked game you won't be on the same footing as established players.  Not only that but all those games have secondary revenue sources that allow people to buy advantages even if they're small.

    The main difference in p2p sub-locked systems is that time has a heavier currency value than in sub-free games.  Sub-free games allow for players to make up their time currency deficit with monetary currency.

    And for the love of god.  Did you really need to make the umpteenth thread about ths?  Couldn't you just post the same old shtuff in one of the existing billion threads on this?  Or did you really think you came up with something new?  You didn't.  We've been regurgitating the same points over and over and over again.  You're preaching to your own choir and not going to convert anyone.  The same is true with those of us who prefer sub-free gaming.  We're not gong to convert you and your opinion about f2p/b2p is pretty much irrelevant.

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    Is it possible to make a p2p sub-locked game without selling advantage?  If you don't buy the latest xpac you're at a disadvantage.

    that makes no sense

    how can you be at a disadvantage for content you aren't even playing

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon

    Possible? Yes. Make the cash shop WoW-like before they allowed selling "the guardian cub" to other players.

    Would it be profitable? Cannot really answer that.

    If the game was really amazing and people were motivated to buy some supercool looking gear (which would be used just to change the looks of your gear obtained from other sources than CS), I believe it would possibly generate profit. But it is just pure speculation.

    Maybe pure cosmetics would not attract enough customers for revenues to exceed cogs.

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,852Member Uncommon
    I think there is a hidden factor of how much the game costs to function, either by simple design or just being a cheap game. If we're taking about the lineup of AAA fully featured F2P games then probably not as if there wasn't some type of advantage why would people pay?

    I know first hand that as a player it's easy to just think as a player. In that mindset the more free the better, get your restrictions out of my gaming! What I don't think is concentrated on enough is the entity providing that content and that it's a business just like the one most of us work at. We may look at a company providing a game free as greedy because they create systems that force or strongly urge you to pay for things. If they didn't how would they find their game? NCSoft tried "all free, pay or not" with Aion and what happened? It was a sliver of revenue last quarter and NCWest was downsized.

    F2P isn't just about the players.
  • bliss14bliss14 eleva, WIPosts: 565Member

    Experience boosts aren't really pay to win in a themepark.  So you get to the plateau that everyone else will get to anyway?  Who cares.

     

    edit:  skill boosts in a sandbox would be an entirely different story of course.

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    Is it possible to make a p2p sub-locked game without selling advantage?  If you don't buy the latest xpac you're at a disadvantage.

    that makes no sense

    how can you be at a disadvantage for content you aren't even playing

    Not that I would personally use Torvaldr's argumentation, but I have to say that it may possibly lead to disadvantage like he says.

    Lets say you have WoW with BC expansion, so that you can reach max level 70. Someone who buys WOTLK would be getting items in the zones from WOTLK expansion which require level 70+ in order to be able to wear them. These items would have significantly higher stats than those you can access with the BC expansion. If you meet such person in BG at level 70, you would be in a disadvantage against them.

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member
    Originally posted by coretex666
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    Is it possible to make a p2p sub-locked game without selling advantage?  If you don't buy the latest xpac you're at a disadvantage.

    that makes no sense

    how can you be at a disadvantage for content you aren't even playing

    Not that I would personally use Torvaldr's argumentation, but I have to say that it may possibly lead to disadvantage like he says.

    Lets say you have WoW with BC expansion, so that you can reach max level 70. Someone who buys WOTLK would be getting items in the zones from WOTLK expansion which require level 70+ in order to be able to wear them. These items would have significantly higher stats than those you can access with the BC expansion. If you meet such person in BG at level 70, you would be in a disadvantage against them.

    ok pvp I could agree with

    but pve offers no advantage, mobs are tuned according to your lvl, you don't gain any advantage over the content like you do in Pay2Win by buying an expansion, you just play in a different expansion

  • Slappy1Slappy1 columbus, OHPosts: 458Member
    PoE is pulling it off (so far) with just cosmetic's and stash tab (bank) upgrade's.Whether or not they can sustain the game with just this remain's to be seen.

    Some day I'm going to put a sword through your eye and out the back of your skull!

    Arya Stark

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,905Member Uncommon

    Yes.  It is possible.  The key is selling convenience.  It's not the same as advantage assuming the two are not blurred.

     

    Let's say a fast mount can be had for a huge amount of effort in game.  The same (or similiar) mount is available in the item shop.  The mount adds convenience to gameplay because it makes travel faster.

     

    In P2P gaming (before item shops invaded them), the pattern was:

     

    effort yielded achievement yielded reward yielded convenience

    in other words, if you want the mount, you have to make an effort to get it

     

    In F2P, one can skip the effort and achievement, and go directly to convenience.  In all except P2W, this is done without imbalancing the game.

     

    item shop purchase yields reward yields convenience

    in other words if you don't feel like making the effort, just buy it

     

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • BahamutKaiserBahamutKaiser Hyattsville, MDPosts: 306Member

    Even LoL allows you to buy an advantage in that you have more character options and the new and often OP release characters. But it was subtle enough to not be an issue.

    There are a lot of things you can sell and not even impact the game, than there are other things you can sell which are not that much of an advantage as to concern you.

    I don't mind if other players can buy a fleeting advantage though, as long as it's not something I can't obtain with gameplay, or something I need, I don't mind.  The main thing is, whether the game is fun to play without buying things... I can deal with other players having an advantage, whether they pay or play, there is often someone with an advantage anyway, but if the game is full of boring progression and painfully unenjoyable content which their selling a solution to, well that's just a bad game, it wasn't fun, and it often woln't be fun just because you bought out of the worst part either.

    I actually have some really interesting business ideas which could introduce content which would greatly enrich games without any impact on the gameplay whatsoever, which would be compelling to buy and very profitable... but yeah, I have no incentive to share it >:D

    With F2P taking over the market though, developers need to come up with creative ways to sell us desirable stuff, while still maintaining the fun and integrity of the game. Honestly, I've left games because of gamble boxes and other trashy MT behaviors... It shouldn't be tolerated...

    Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
    That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  • JoeyMMOJoeyMMO SomewherePosts: 1,326Member
    You can make a game without selling advantages, however normally that way you'll get into fanancial problems pretty fast. In the end they all go that route. Cosmetics and non-P2W items can only get you that far. B2P and a non-P2W cash shop are possible though. With F2P expect the worst at some point in time or another. They have to make money somehow.

    imageimage
  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by JoeyMMO
    You can make a game without selling advantages, however normally that way you'll get into fanancial problems pretty fast. In the end they all go that route. Cosmetics and non-P2W items can only get you that far. B2P and a non-P2W cash shop are possible though. With F2P expect the worst at some point in time or another. They have to make money somehow.

    ^ Ignorance is bliss.

    image
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon

    I believe that EvE numbers should be standard for success. So how much money does it cost to keep server like EvE running per month?

    also how much money would it cost to make new content/ player made content tools?

    and on top of all that, how much it cost for social monitoring like bug tickets and GM each month?

     

    all of this factored together.

     

    maybe for each expansion or content update you make it so its all done through kick starters.

    image

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member

    Advertising-supported.   I wouldn't want to play it, but it's a business model that worked for television.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,187Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by coretex666
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    Is it possible to make a p2p sub-locked game without selling advantage?  If you don't buy the latest xpac you're at a disadvantage.

    that makes no sense

    how can you be at a disadvantage for content you aren't even playing

    Not that I would personally use Torvaldr's argumentation, but I have to say that it may possibly lead to disadvantage like he says.

    Lets say you have WoW with BC expansion, so that you can reach max level 70. Someone who buys WOTLK would be getting items in the zones from WOTLK expansion which require level 70+ in order to be able to wear them. These items would have significantly higher stats than those you can access with the BC expansion. If you meet such person in BG at level 70, you would be in a disadvantage against them.

    ok pvp I could agree with

    but pve offers no advantage, mobs are tuned according to your lvl, you don't gain any advantage over the content like you do in Pay2Win by buying an expansion, you just play in a different expansion

    I can't play the content, I can't level, I am gated from all that content while everyone else can use it.  Rift Storm Legion - I have a sub to Rift.  I didn't buy Storm Legion.  I can't progress and the entirety of that is locked behind the xpac.  Progression is gated behind the paid content.  The same is true for WoW.  I own up to BC.  I would have to buy all the other expacs in order to advance.  Again, it's gated behind a monetary purchase.

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by coretex666
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    Is it possible to make a p2p sub-locked game without selling advantage?  If you don't buy the latest xpac you're at a disadvantage.

    that makes no sense

    how can you be at a disadvantage for content you aren't even playing

    Not that I would personally use Torvaldr's argumentation, but I have to say that it may possibly lead to disadvantage like he says.

    Lets say you have WoW with BC expansion, so that you can reach max level 70. Someone who buys WOTLK would be getting items in the zones from WOTLK expansion which require level 70+ in order to be able to wear them. These items would have significantly higher stats than those you can access with the BC expansion. If you meet such person in BG at level 70, you would be in a disadvantage against them.

    ok pvp I could agree with

    but pve offers no advantage, mobs are tuned according to your lvl, you don't gain any advantage over the content like you do in Pay2Win by buying an expansion, you just play in a different expansion

    I can't play the content, I can't level, I am gated from all that content while everyone else can use it.  Rift Storm Legion - I have a sub to Rift.  I didn't buy Storm Legion.  I can't progress and the entirety of that is locked behind the xpac.  Progression is gated behind the paid content.  The same is true for WoW.  I own up to BC.  I would have to buy all the other expacs in order to advance.  Again, it's gated behind a monetary purchase.

    Yeah, and in addition to that, say you're a level 70 and someone is getting a raid together for a level 70 instance... these days in WoW it's almost always for transmog patterns.  I've literally seen level 70 players left out of raids in order to make room for level 85's because it's "faster" with them.  It's stupid.

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by coretex666
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    Is it possible to make a p2p sub-locked game without selling advantage?  If you don't buy the latest xpac you're at a disadvantage.

    that makes no sense

    how can you be at a disadvantage for content you aren't even playing

    Not that I would personally use Torvaldr's argumentation, but I have to say that it may possibly lead to disadvantage like he says.

    Lets say you have WoW with BC expansion, so that you can reach max level 70. Someone who buys WOTLK would be getting items in the zones from WOTLK expansion which require level 70+ in order to be able to wear them. These items would have significantly higher stats than those you can access with the BC expansion. If you meet such person in BG at level 70, you would be in a disadvantage against them.

    ok pvp I could agree with

    but pve offers no advantage, mobs are tuned according to your lvl, you don't gain any advantage over the content like you do in Pay2Win by buying an expansion, you just play in a different expansion

    I can't play the content, I can't level, I am gated from all that content while everyone else can use it.  Rift Storm Legion - I have a sub to Rift.  I didn't buy Storm Legion.  I can't progress and the entirety of that is locked behind the xpac.  Progression is gated behind the paid content.  The same is true for WoW.  I own up to BC.  I would have to buy all the other expacs in order to advance.  Again, it's gated behind a monetary purchase.

    Are you suggesting that just having access to content added by expansions is an advantage over someone else?

    Well it may be considered that way, but in a slightly different context than I believe the OP used.

    Of course you are better off than someone else who does not purchase an expansion which you own because you have more content to play through. However, it does not give you a competitive advantage as you are no longer matched with the person who does not purchase the expansion.

    In case of WoW which you talk about, you do different raids and dungeons than the person without the expac, you are in different BG group, you are in different arena group, etc. You no longer compete with that person in any way as the game is pretty much divided by levels. Maybe if you two would met somewhere in open world, he would have an advantage as he would be higher level and would be stronger in PvP.

    I am just trying to better understand your reasoning, not trying to offend you in any way.

     

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,852Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dihoru
     
    Originally posted by JoeyMMO
    You can make a game without selling advantages, however normally that way you'll get into fanancial problems pretty fast. In the end they all go that route. Cosmetics and non-P2W items can only get you that far. B2P and a non-P2W cash shop are possible though. With F2P expect the worst at some point in time or another. They have to make money somehow.

    ^ Ignorance is bliss.

     

    I'm not sure what specifically you're talking about but I agree with Joey.

     

    Aion proved this even though they also sold stated items if I'm not mistaken.

     

    GW2 has shown this partially because you could consider the gem/gold buying P2W.  GW2 itemization is a little atypical of most titles.

     

    Allods upgrades? STO lockboxes? LotRO quest lock outs? EQ2/VG race/class/item & spell tier locks? Each of these have been railed against at one point or another for being horrible F2P models.

     

    The fact remains that developers need money and it's not going to be made strictly by xp potions and cosmetic items for any type of quality game with regular updates.

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,592Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by gessekai332

    F2p games always seem to degrade iinto one of two things:

     

    1) p2win or p2get ahead (selling gear with good stats or selling exp boosts).

    2) RNG gambling aka pay for a random chance to get some p2win item or advantage (keys for treasure boxes, lockboxes, or crafting success enhancements)

     

    Is it possible to make an F2P where you dont result in ultimately granting a person an advantage?

    Depends on what you mean by advantage. EXP potions and fluff are one thing. Weapons and armor quite another.  This IS a business after all, and the object is to make a profit on their investment. I have no problem what so ever with that.

    In fact, if I find such a game to be entertaining, I make a point of using the cash shop to support it.

    Path of Exile is an example of a game that does a good job of that. There are others as well. People who go into hysterics about "P2W" need to remember the old saying. There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.  TANSTAAFL.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_ain't_no_such_thing_as_a_free_lunch

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,592Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    I know it's possible because I played Street Gears and the only thing you could buy was outfits, cosmetic items.

    But all other F2P games I played are ,for all intended purpose, Pay2Win games. I think it's purely greed tbh.

    What is this "greed" you speak of?  That people want to make a profit from their investment? What is the difference between profit and "greed"? Its been my experience that many people use the word "greed" to mean; "you have more than me" or "you want more than I think you should".

  • DauzqulDauzqul Detroit, MIPosts: 1,401Member Uncommon

    I don't mind the current state of F2P. I really can't think of any that have an extreme P2W system.

    The #1 reason why F2P will always be better than the sub model is POPULATION. EverQuest 2 was a ghost town. Now, there are loads of people running around. A game with little player intereaction is a dead game in my book. It's like going to a forum without any other users.

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,852Member Uncommon
    In situations like SoE games where there is a sub option as well sure, F2P is a great addition. I wonder though whether mega servers like TESO or advanced phasing like CRZ will eliminate the need for free players as a means of bolstering the population of MMOs.
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