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Why no RAIDS?

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  • AlminieAlminie Silent hill, NYPosts: 109Member
    a good game doesn't need raids, to get good gear you don't need raids, also for a challenging fight you don't need a raid boss, just a challenging instance with 4 of your friends.
  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member
    Originally posted by Alminie
    a good game doesn't need raids, to get good gear you don't need raids, also for a challenging fight you don't need a raid boss, just a challenging instance with 4 of your friends.

    I'll tell you I don't like GW2 dungeon at all.  And I have doubt TESO dungeon will be any good.

    The simple reason is the game is build around character/build diversity.  So I highly doubt there will be any challenging instance.

    How do you build a hard dungeon when the build is that diverse?  The only thing you'll get is the characters will be very unbalanced.

    Quite ironically beside wow, my favorite 5 man dungeon game is warhammer online.  And that isn't even a pve game. 

    The simple reason is when you take away min/maxing, it is hard to balance the dungeon and more importantly the classes.

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by Alminie
    a good game doesn't need raids, to get good gear you don't need raids, also for a challenging fight you don't need a raid boss, just a challenging instance with 4 of your friends.

    The further you shrink group size the dumber the encounter must me. Otherwise you cannot count on having certain abilities. I welcome the return of 40 mans in Wildstar. Gimme another Nefarion, 4 hoursemen, Princess Huhu, Yogg.

  • AdamaiAdamai derbyPosts: 469Member
    can you remember doing raids in any of the elder scrolls games ???? no i didnt think so lol

    raids would retract from the elder scrollfeel and game play. if anything it should have been a mighty sandbox becauze thats what elderscrolls really is.
  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser ParisPosts: 1,873Member
    Originally posted by Vembumees
    Originally posted by TalulaRose
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    It's pretty hilarious seeing the raiders cry and twitch.  I thought nerd rage was the funniest rage, but it's raider nerd rage that is most funny.

    The raiders in the thread pretty much have proven the point to everyone else why people don't want that in the game.  Raiders won't be happy unless they have the best gear.  They'll bullshit you now and say it's all about challenge, but it's not.  It's about exclusivity and being able to hold that over others.

    If raiding was added to the game and the gear better than any other gear the tears would once again start flowing.  They would say how their content is the only challenging content so they deserve gear that is better.  They would explain that "baddies" don't deserve the gear.  And then they would let the casuals (that's everyone who doesn't raid because only raiders are hardcore) know that they too can get the gear if they just do the raids (subject to approval for admission to the raid group of course).

    Instanced, repeatable, scripted raids are one of the worst design paradigms to hit the genre ever.

    [mod edit]

    Of course it's regurgitated.  It came from straight from listening to raiders.

    Yes you could have raids that don't offer the best gear, but the fact is that there are no games where the best gear isn't locked behind raids.  What raiding game offers raiders worse gear than any other playstyle?  There isn't one.

    Yes, scripted dungeons are bad.  I put them as the third worst thing to hit the genre behind themepark arena style pvp.  Master modes in Rift weren't too bad, but you can only do the exact same thing over and over again so long before it becomes boring.

    There are still plenty of options for raiders though (Rift, WoW, EQ2, EQ, LotRO).  Not every new game coming out needs to cater to your type of people.

    Just because a game  has raids doesn't mean it caters to them. The only ones who think this way are the ones who hate raids. Time to take off the tinfoil hat.

    Seems to me the only elitists in this thread are the ones saying don't inlcude raiding. If you don't like to raid, don't do it. Raiders raid, non-raiders do what they want to do. Everyone is happy.

     

    The only people who wouldn't be happy are the ones who envy what others have. That problem is behind the keyboard, not a game mechanic.

    Best post yet.

     

    But yeah, I really am wondering as well, all the people who hate that raiders get the best gear in game...why are you jealous? Why do you need that gear the raiders have? Don't you understand that the gear is needed to beat the next raid content? If you don't raid you don't need the gear. Please explain. It's just ridiculous.

    You both are so full of crap. No wonder you think  his post is 'best evah'. How the hell did you even arrive to conclusion that it is about jealousy? i couldn't give a damn about raiding and what purple shit you run around in. It doesn't effect my gameplay. But what does effect my gameplay is when that is all there is in the end. Once a MMO becomes raid centeric there are no other alternatives to do things at level cap. And it has been shown many times that only very few percentage of players actually pariticpate in end game raiding.

    People here are more concerned about 'raid or die' kind of end game. If devs decide to implement raids they should also make sure that those who don't enjoy raids also have other ways of progressing their characters. But that is something never happens in themepark MMOS. 

    Moreover this is ES title. The whole raiding bullshi* doesn't fit into it anywhere. ES games have always been about rich world, exploration, lore and adventure and not about hitting a pinata till it bursts open and drops loot for angry people with sticks.

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
    -Jesse Schell

    "Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
    -Luke McKinney

    image

  • BetakodoBetakodo Poor land, FLPosts: 338Member
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by Betakodo
    Having to play with 39 people I don't know for a DKP chance of getting the loot I want? No thanks. I think the 4 man dungeons are superior, I don't have to deal with any huge ego guild leader and I can pretty much form a group any time I want.

    you don't use a dkp system when playing with people you don't know. the only way that system works is when you're playing with the same 39 other people.

     

    furthermore, WoW has long since abandoned 40 man raids. so try 24 or even better, 9 other people if you wanted to actually be a successful troll instead of just making yourself look like an idiot.

     

    don't like a huge ego guild leader? leave and join a better guild.

     

    4 man dungeons? What game do you play that has 4 man dungeons? Every game is almost universally 5 man dungeons. You can also pick up huge ego pricks in 5 man dungeons who will bitch and complain about you needing to go faster, heal more, tank more, do more dmg, use right talents, etc.

    Oh man, I'm not up to date with the MMO raid numbers so a man named Sephiroth thinks I've made a fool of myself! The shame!

    Anyways, I was talking about DKP in relation to being in a guild. How many people want the raid goods and just join any guild that's open? The problem with raids are you are stuck trying to find a guild that actually has space and on top of that, you don't wanna leave because you'll lose your DKP. Finding a "Good" guild is part luck, it's not easy getting the stars aligned so that you get a decent leader, an active guild, people who aren't _____, etc.

    With 4 man dungeons, or even 5, you're not stuck hoping to find a good guild. The number's small enough to be able to find a pick up a group and not be gimped because you didn't become a slave to a guild. You can weed out the douches with a simple blacklist/block and friends list the nice players.

  • ArthasmArthasm LoznicaPosts: 754Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser

    You both are so full of crap. No wonder you think  his post is 'best evah'. How the hell did you even arrive to conclusion that it is about jealousy? i couldn't give a damn about raiding and what purple shit you run around in. It doesn't effect my gameplay. But what does effect my gameplay is when that is all there is in the end. Once a MMO becomes raid centeric there are no other alternatives to do things at level cap. And it has been shown many times that only very few percentage of players actually pariticpate in end game raiding.

    People here are more concerned about 'raid or die' kind of end game. If devs decide to implement raids they should also make sure that those who don't enjoy raids also have other ways of progressing their characters. But that is something never happens in themepark MMOS. 

    Moreover this is ES title. The whole raiding bullshi* doesn't fit into it anywhere. ES games have always been about rich world, exploration, lore and adventure and not about hitting a pinata till it bursts open and drops loot for angry people with sticks.

    If you don't give a damn about raids, why you bother? You will have different character progression, you will get best gear from crafting. "Once a MMO becomes raid centeric there are no other alternatives to do things at level cap." - that means people done all content and alternatives and progressed their character to maximum. You're either join raids or wait for new expansion/content. For raideres in TESO without raids that means - this game sux, content done in 2 months, kthxbai.

  • MyTabbycatMyTabbycat SP, MOPosts: 312Member

    Here is your answer:

    QUOTE:

    When asked about his vision for raids and PvE endgame in ESO he explained the controversial IGN quote by recognizing that World of Warcraft is the best in the business at constructing competitive progression raiding. ZeniMax doesn’t want to become embroiled in a struggle to out-do WoW at it’s own game, and would rather develop it’s own brand of large group PvE which fits the Elder Scrolls context. Most WoW-style raids involve 20+ players hacking away gleefully at the ankles of a much larger foe, when Matt Firor claimed “That’s not Elder Scrolls” it was this type of confrontation in particular to which he was referring.  The developers at ZeniMax would rather pit a group of players against a much larger force of threatening NPCs to emphasize that heroic feel which is latent throughout the Elder Scrolls series. While nothing explicit is confirmed, it does sound like adventure zones are definitely penciled in as post-launch content. Hopefully there is at least one such epic endgame PvE encounter in the original launch version of the game, but if not, I hope we can look forward to adventure zones shortly after launch as a good compromise for  players which crave large group PvE endgame. We should have a better opportunity to talk to Matt further tomorrow afternoon, so I’m hopeful that we can get more juicy details then!

  • ArthasmArthasm LoznicaPosts: 754Member Uncommon
    Good. Like Guild Wars 2. I hope we will need to use and skill number 2 beside spamming 1, when we fight against world PVE bosses.
  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser ParisPosts: 1,873Member
    Originally posted by Arthasm
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser

    You both are so full of crap. No wonder you think  his post is 'best evah'. How the hell did you even arrive to conclusion that it is about jealousy? i couldn't give a damn about raiding and what purple shit you run around in. It doesn't effect my gameplay. But what does effect my gameplay is when that is all there is in the end. Once a MMO becomes raid centeric there are no other alternatives to do things at level cap. And it has been shown many times that only very few percentage of players actually pariticpate in end game raiding.

    People here are more concerned about 'raid or die' kind of end game. If devs decide to implement raids they should also make sure that those who don't enjoy raids also have other ways of progressing their characters. But that is something never happens in themepark MMOS. 

    Moreover this is ES title. The whole raiding bullshi* doesn't fit into it anywhere. ES games have always been about rich world, exploration, lore and adventure and not about hitting a pinata till it bursts open and drops loot for angry people with sticks.

    If you don't give a damn about raids, why you bother? You will have different character progression, you will get best gear from crafting. "Once a MMO becomes raid centeric there are no other alternatives to do things at level cap." - that means people done all content and alternatives and progressed their character to maximum. You're either join raids or wait for new expansion/content. For raideres in TESO without raids that means - this game sux, content done in 2 months, kthxbai.

    Don't quote me again if you don't even bother to read what i said. I clealry mentioned that i don't give a damn about the raid but i do care when that is all there is. Raiders are not special snowflake that entire end game has to be weaved around them. I suggest get over yourself.

     

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
    -Jesse Schell

    "Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
    -Luke McKinney

    image

  • ArthasmArthasm LoznicaPosts: 754Member Uncommon
    Fine. We get our piece of cake, you get your piece of cake. Everyone happy. Don't like raids, don't do them. There will be thousand other options for progress. For us who like challenge, give raids. For those who want best gear without hours of doing challenge boss encounters - you have crafting. I don't mind if people would have best gear without single skill used or kill, but I like to have something that requires skills, not bloody farming mats to have best gear.
  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser ParisPosts: 1,873Member

    From where you are getting there will be thousand other options for end game non raiders? and by challenge if you mean hitting on a boss with  couple of million HP till it dies yes sure it is chellenging.

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
    -Jesse Schell

    "Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
    -Luke McKinney

    image

  • Tarkus-BlackTarkus-Black PerthPosts: 7Member

    IGN miss reported and misinterpreted Matt Firor's Comments, Raids are in. Wait for more info coming throughout PAXeast.

    RAIDS ARE IN. Dont have to believe me you'll see soon enough.

    16-20 man content. 

  • scooter256scooter256 jackson, OHPosts: 5Member

    Firor goes on to describe the game as potentially “the most socially connected MMO game ever.” The Elder Scrolls Online will offer the standard fare of raids and instanced dungeons (available in both group and heroic difficulty levels) but in addition ZeniMax is bringing back the tradition of public dungeons which haven’t been seen in an MMO for several years. These public dungeons will be shared content with no instancing.

    http://www.tentonhammer.com/elder-scrolls-online/previews/e3-2012

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by Betakodo

    Oh man, I'm not up to date with the MMO raid numbers so a man named Sephiroth thinks I've made a fool of myself! The shame!

    Anyways, I was talking about DKP in relation to being in a guild. How many people want the raid goods and just join any guild that's open? The problem with raids are you are stuck trying to find a guild that actually has space and on top of that, you don't wanna leave because you'll lose your DKP. Finding a "Good" guild is part luck, it's not easy getting the stars aligned so that you get a decent leader, an active guild, people who aren't _____, etc.

    With 4 man dungeons, or even 5, you're not stuck hoping to find a good guild. The number's small enough to be able to find a pick up a group and not be gimped because you didn't become a slave to a guild. You can weed out the douches with a simple blacklist/block and friends list the nice players.

    This completely selfish attitude is what many dislike about current game design. Things like lfr/lfd reinforce this behavior and does not force people to learn how to work well with others.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,201Member Uncommon
    If they do add traditional raiding, it will be interesting to see how they try and balance loot.  Raiders won't stand for anyone else having equal drops or progression.  You can tell by their attitude in this thread that they already value themselves and their activity above others - using words like baddie and such.  I want to see how they'll work themselves out of this one or if the'll cave and just itemize the best stuff behind the raids.
  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    If they do add traditional raiding, it will be interesting to see how they try and balance loot.  Raiders won't stand for anyone else having equal drops or progression.  You can tell by their attitude in this thread that they already value themselves and their activity above others - using words like baddie and such.  I want to see how they'll work themselves out of this one or if the'll cave and just itemize the best stuff behind the raids.

    ya I mean.  Raider are just people.  Non raider are just people too.

    You are not bothered because they are raider.  You are bothered because they sound like assal.

    Let me put it this way, when I "did" actually play wow.  That was like 5 years ago.  The forum are full of post by non raider complaining they can't get good loot.  It's the same for everyone.  Raider or non raider, they can't stand other people have better loot.

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    If they do add traditional raiding, it will be interesting to see how they try and balance loot.  Raiders won't stand for anyone else having equal drops or progression.  You can tell by their attitude in this thread that they already value themselves and their activity above others - using words like baddie and such.  I want to see how they'll work themselves out of this one or if the'll cave and just itemize the best stuff behind the raids.

    Oh poor Torvaldr, where did the raider touch you? While the argument can be made that raiding has always been about gear, even in its inception, its much more about being rewarded for effort. Pretty much every time the complaints have started in earnest its been due to poor rewards. During Burning Crusade for example when Karazhan was dropping the same ilvl as heroics, but required much more effort in both time and skill to be able to obtain, especially with how poorly itemized so much of Karazhans loot was. Also, if you really want to go into elitism, then you need to look at your own pvp segment, afterall it is where most of those terms originated.

     

    Misrepresentation aside, it is a rather valid question. Itemization is going to be key, especially with as wide open a system as they have displayed. I have the feeling that gear in general is going to have to either be very easy to get or so bland it will not matter a great deal, especially when you consider how they plan on balancing pvp and the like.

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member
    Originally posted by JasonJ
    Originally posted by laokoko

    Me personally I just think Elder scroll "can't" have raid because of the combat and profession design dont' allow them to do it.

    It is kind of like GW2, I just think GW2 can't have raid because their combat system dont' enable them to design raid content.

    That being said, if you don't like raid, you dont' ahve to raid.  I dont' understand how it bothers people that don't like to raid to have raid in the game.  Especially for a game that have like 300 million budget.

     

     Actually I will disagree greatly here.

    You can have raid content with open classes. Asherons Call had massive boss mobs that took several groups to down, and GW2 has open world events that require 15+ to take down, a few that require 25+.

    While it is HARDER for the players, because they actually have to LEARN their role instead of being TOLD what it is, it can still be done.

    Personally I would have NO ISSUES AT ALL WITH RAIDS in a game, if raiders could ever tear themselves away from the idea that raiding requires uber loot that are ultra shiney that causes game imabalances on every level.

    Raiding "to me" isn't about how many people they are.  I mean people keep saying GW2 have raiding because there are open world boss, but even the GW2 developer says their game don't have raiding.

    What I meant is raiding content which is actually difficult.  And when you want to design difficult conent it usually have to revolve around min/maxer.  Now when you look at all those games with more "open" roles, it become very clear that the class is very unbalance in pve. 

    It is not that those games can't design "difficult raid".  The problem is they can't balance those class or build in specific for raiding.

  • jay8118jay8118 shelby, MIPosts: 29Member

    Being a raider in WoW, Rift, and that star wars game....I can live with no raiding in this game, it does get repetitive even if you are downing bosses. I think they do need some kind of large scale PvE though, doesn't necessarily have to be instanced raids.

    With hearing you are able to make craftable items just as good as dungeon/pvp loot, there still needs to be some sort of grind to make your character better than the next person. Sadly this is what happens in gaming, not by everyone but you would be surprised how many players want to be better than the next.

    Balance is another key as someone else mentioned. They seem to working on that with dungeons already. With many of the combinations of characters you are able to build I see less balance problems then of a game with specific classes and tree's.

    Still sounds like a very fun game either way, NEED GAMEPLAY VIDS (and beta)

  • RinnaRinna Las Vegas, NVPosts: 388Member
    I too, am fine with no raids.

    No bitchers.

  • ktanner3ktanner3 lakeland, FLPosts: 4,074Member Common
    Originally posted by Fion

    Why no raids? Because raids are freaking boring. They exist simply to addict the gamer to the game with a regular dopamine hit and extend a games life by adding boring content you have to do a hundred times over to get your 'l33t g34r!' Kill me now!

    There are several successful MMOGs around now that don't have raids. It's my hope they die a horrible death.

    I second this. For the life of me I don't get what players see in RAIDs. They are interesting the first time through, but that's it. I'd rather pull teeth than do that over and over again. 

    Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  • JetrpgJetrpg Whitehouse, OHPosts: 2,376Member
    Originally posted by RelGn

    I dont think it's about harm dude.I think it's about time.

    Time is money and guess what companies care only for your money and not what you want.

    Once they get all your money they dont care.

    1st person may be more easy to be implemented than raids which means less time which again means MORE MONEY FOR THEM!!

    They got time for voice acting worth bs but not raids... perfect example of bad prioritzation agian.

    "Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine

  • neroistneroist Chatsworth, GAPosts: 24Member

    Raiding doesn't have to be like it is in WoW. I have played DDO for 7 years. Raiding there is quite fun. The gear is some of the best but the raid only takes 15 mins to 1 hour to complete. They are instanced encounters with many many mechanics other than just beat down the bad guy handle mobs.  No tier gear in fact there is a weapon I got in a raid that is still one the best in game and 4 raids have came it since . Also a mix of the gear you get from questing on the hardest diffuclty and raids is what you strive for. You craft to make them stronger. The raids are absolutly the best part of the game.  80-90% of the populations does them and their is a great comunity becuase of it.

    DDO is showing it age now and alot of my friends are looking for another game. I hope ESO takes a look of what is out there and not just the WoW modle of tier gear becuase it makes previous gear worthless.

  • FionFion Montour Falls, NYPosts: 2,351Member
    Originally posted by ktanner3
    Originally posted by Fion

    Why no raids? Because raids are freaking boring. They exist simply to addict the gamer to the game with a regular dopamine hit and extend a games life by adding boring content you have to do a hundred times over to get your 'l33t g34r!' Kill me now!

    There are several successful MMOGs around now that don't have raids. It's my hope they die a horrible death.

    I second this. For the life of me I don't get what players see in RAIDs. They are interesting the first time through, but that's it. I'd rather pull teeth than do that over and over again. 

    Oh someone who agrees with me lol. 

    I will admit the first time confronting a new boss, learning how to beat it, that's fun. But once you have a boss down and have to kill grind that dungeon & boss once a week for the next six months to get that one drop you want, it becomes crazy boring. Add the exclusivity of raiding, where only a small percentage of your playerbase ever even sees the biggest baddies, and I think the problem becomes even larger, as developers cater to that few taking on the top content (and constantly screaming for more of it, and the many who will never see any of it.

    A good example is Northrend and the ~10% of the playerbase who defeated Arthur at the end of that expansion. Sure for those that did, it was great. They might have gotten that 'x item that only 5 other people on the server have', but for the vast majority who never saw that fight it was content Blizzard developed for the few, who constantly sream for more.. and not for the many who will never see the top stuff. I'm not against exclusivity, but it needs to be a small part of a game, not the largest part as it always is in raiding MMOGs.

    image

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