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Why no RAIDS?

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  • immodiumimmodium ManchesterPosts: 1,578Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by hMJem
    Originally posted by FromHell
    [mod edit]

    And every game that has refused to have a real end-game has tanked compared to expectations. There is a reason Everquest and WoW are the kings of MMOs. And I guarantee you when Everquest Next comes out, despite Elder Scrolls having the more relevant fanbase, Everquest Next will have much more subscribers than ESO. Both are coming out this year.

     

    Sorry, Cyrodill and crafting isnt an end-game that will make people play for 3+ months, and anyone who wants to complete all 3 factions will have done so within a couple months.

    I'm sorry, but I'm failing to see how regurgitating the same raid content will keep people playing longer than crafting and PvP.

    Most multiplayer games thrive of PvP, why can't MMO's? is it because the majority of MMO players are 'care bears' and can only handle PvE content?

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  • WaldoeWaldoe allentown, PAPosts: 624Member
    Originally posted by hMJem
    Originally posted by Waldoe

    So what does Paul Sage mean  in the video below when he says  heroic raids?

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sv160bre2og#t=403s

    Ive watched every Paul Sage video the past couple weeks, and I am fairly confident he meant Heroic Dungeons. Many people have said "dungeons" and not raids. Probably a simple mistake over the course of 10 interviews in a day. I can link 3 other videos where heroic "dungeon" is the term everyone used. And its just a level 50 version of the dungeons with drops that are worse than what you can craft.

    They would have editied out of the video if it was a mistake on his part. 

  • TalulaRoseTalulaRose Long Island, NYPosts: 480Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by FromHell
    [mod edit]

    THen those 95% will be content to do what they want and the other 5% will be happy to do their raids. Everyone wins. So many casuals that like to deny others their fun. Kind of funny that the casual playerbase is riddled with envy.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by hMJem
    Originally posted by FromHell
    [mod edit]

    And every game that has refused to have a real end-game has tanked compared to expectations. There is a reason Everquest and WoW are the kings of MMOs. And I guarantee you when Everquest Next comes out, despite Elder Scrolls having the more relevant fanbase, Everquest Next will have much more subscribers than ESO. Both are coming out this year.

     

    Sorry, Cyrodill and crafting isnt an end-game that will make people play for 3+ months, and anyone who wants to complete all 3 factions will have done so within a couple months.

    I remember when DAOC added raiding for the TOA expansion. 

    Everyone quit.

    All depends on the design, and how many raiders such content would really satisfy. I think they'll add it later on, much like WOW did.  (MC wasn't there at launch)

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
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  • sibs4455sibs4455 manchesterPosts: 357Member
    Originally posted by Fion

    Why no raids? Because raids are freaking boring. They exist simply to addict the gamer to the game with a regular dopamine hit and extend a games life by adding boring content you have to do a hundred times over to get your 'l33t g34r!' Kill me now!

    There are several successful MMOGs around now that don't have raids. It's my hope they die a horrible death.

    Lmao, raids boring? you need to play Age of Conan.

  • VembumeesVembumees WildStarPosts: 79Member
    I love elder scrolls series. I loved Morrowind, I loved its expansions. Wow oblivion was just a blast. Expansion really fun as well. Skyrim was amazing. I've even played daggerfall, man. All one of my favourite games of all time. But you know how long I played my favourite games? A week or two. And that was casually playing. That's how long you will see half the playerbase you see at the release of ESO if they have no real raid content.
  • YukmarcYukmarc Fresno, CAPosts: 104Member Uncommon

    I have always thought that raids prevented people from playing the characters that they truly want to play. Instead, they create a character that other players want in the raids with them. So you end up with having your character spec'd exactly like the other guy instead of how YOU want it. I think it's a fantastic idea.

    However....

    Because of the RvR in this game, everyone will still be falling into that same trap.

  • ForumPvPForumPvP KingstownPosts: 871Member
    Originally posted by FromHell
    [mod edit]

     

    So ,do you really want to see a game where everybody does the same thing and everybody looks the same and everybody has the same name ? thats really frigging weird.

    Let's internet

  • TalulaRoseTalulaRose Long Island, NYPosts: 480Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Yukmarc

    I have always thought that raids prevented people from playing the characters that they truly want to play. Instead, they create a character that other players want in the raids with them. So you end up with having your character spec'd exactly like the other guy instead of how YOU want it. I think it's a fantastic idea.

    However....

    Because of the RvR in this game, everyone will still be falling into that same trap.

    Most games I now allow the player to have multiple builds. And even if it doesn't, when it somes to working with a group of people isn't it better to build a character the synergizes with the group. I know I know, why shouldn't you be able to do your own thing? That leads to the question, if you want to do your own thing for you why are you trying to do group based content.

  • JasonJJasonJ New Port Richey, FLPosts: 395Member
    Originally posted by hMJem

    Much like how hardcore TES fans wanted 1st person even though traditional MMO fans didnt care, it was added in because it doesnt hurt anyone.

     No.

    1st person is not equal to raids. Your argument is invalid. Raids hurt everyone because raiders all want to raid for gear causing a massive imbalance in the playerbase and a downward spiral of the game in all aspects from PvE to PvP and even greatly effects future content which must be curned out just for raiders causing an even greater imbalance because that content must be made vastly harder placing it out of reach of everyone else.

    1st person however harms nobody because the choice of using or not using effects none.

  • ShadanwolfShadanwolf Posts: 2,114Member Uncommon

    Frankly...I never raid

    I thought raiding was specifically mentioned as being in the game in one of the companys video's.

  • JasonJJasonJ New Port Richey, FLPosts: 395Member
    Originally posted by ForumPvP
    Originally posted by FromHell
    [mod edit]

     

    So ,do you really want to see a game where everybody does the same thing and everybody looks the same and everybody has the same name ? thats really frigging weird.

     You guys wanted segregated factions which does just that, places everyone of the same races into small closed off factions limited to just a few playing areas funneling everyone into the same damn place for PvP at end game as well...but now you guys are going to try to act as if Raiding is THE thing thats going to make the difference? I dont think so.

    If you wanted a variety you would have demanded no closed faction lands or races and the ability to PvP all over the world as well. No, I do not mean FFA PvP, just being able to do it anywhere...why limited taking over lands in one central area when they could have castles and other objectives ALL over the world. We are talking about taking over an empire and fighting other factions arent we? Then why not fight everywhere?!?!

    Yeah, sorry...cant get angry over a lack of raids which provides little content compared to the other limitations this game is bringing.

  • VembumeesVembumees WildStarPosts: 79Member
    Originally posted by Yukmarc

    I have always thought that raids prevented people from playing the characters that they truly want to play. Instead, they create a character that other players want in the raids with them. So you end up with having your character spec'd exactly like the other guy instead of how YOU want it. I think it's a fantastic idea.

    However....

    Because of the RvR in this game, everyone will still be falling into that same trap.

    Hey mister. Let me tell you what raids are for. Raids are for players who have more time than 5 hours a day to spend on the game, up to 15 hours. Raids are activities for players who play the game for a long time. I'm sorry, maybe we are just different people, but after I hit max level in a week after the game release (doesn't matter if its 1 day or 1 month), what will I do with that spec of yours if I don't have anything to use it on? Elaborate to me somehow and explain to me, if you play an mmorpg 5 hours a day, sometimes in the weekends even 10 hours. A YEAR straight. Lets say about 3000-4000 hours. Just a random estimate. What would you do all that time? Kill goblins? Do an easy dungeon over and over and over again? Do same battlegrounds 1000 hours straight? Have you played a themepark mmorpg for more than, lets say, half a year? I've played some for 5000-10000+ hours and I wouldn't ever even played a quarter of it without any raid content.

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONPosts: 2,499Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by hMJem

    I guess I just dont get where raiding hurts this MMORPG. Just because it has Elder Scrolls in the title? Much like 1st person was appeased for TES fans, I dont see the harm here.

     

    I'm actually fine with no raids. I played quite a few MMOs and I've always found that the biggest douche bags and whiners are to be found in end game raiding. Not once did I see someone blow up or get hysterical when someone rolled on a piece of loot they could use in a dungeon. In a raid, though, it's like a daily occurrance. Look at WoW, that's why they had to redo the whole looting system. 

     

    IMO, end game raiders are 80% douchebags or whiners to 20% actual cool, easy going people. So I'm not sad to see raiding cut. 

     

    Plus, I've never found that any game "Opens up" at max level. Maybe they'll have some way of encouraging players to do something other than sitting in town or sitting in queues for raids. 

    Crazkanuk

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    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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  • EcocesEcoces Chicago, ILPosts: 879Member Uncommon

    people don't like raids because of the attitudes that come with it and because those people that demand raids usually try to force their agenda on everyone else and the developers.

     

    I read in another post of yours(OP) you mention something to the extent of "whats wrong with having unique gear from raids as well as crafting". here is the problem with that logic is raiders actually will cry and moan if you got raid quality gear from crafting. ever play rift? do you know that in Alpha and Beta Trion said that you would be able to get the best gear in games from Raids, PVP or Crafting ... that the player would be able to get the best gear no matter their playstyle.

     

    yeah that lasted till the first new raid zone came out with a bit better gear. then the "bads" or "casuals" as they are called by raiders wondered when crafting would get new recipes to make comparable gear. only to be shouted down by raiders saying "oh you shouldn't get gear as good as raiders if you don't raid".

     

    but they did add where you could add Raid quality gear to crafting ..... if you got mats that dropped from raid instances lol.

     

    that and also Raiders try to strong arm the developers in developing new content only for them. i have seen it too many times where if the developers work on a lower level zone the raiders complain, if the developers work on fluff things the raiders complain. hell if the developers work on anything that isn't the new script for that new boss for that new raid zone that only 1% of the population will ever see the raiders complain.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,784Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by hMJem
    Originally posted by FromHell
    [mod edit]

    And every game that has refused to have a real end-game has tanked compared to expectations. There is a reason Everquest and WoW are the kings of MMOs. And I guarantee you when Everquest Next comes out, despite Elder Scrolls having the more relevant fanbase, Everquest Next will have much more subscribers than ESO. Both are coming out this year.

     

    Sorry, Cyrodill and crafting isnt an end-game that will make people play for 3+ months, and anyone who wants to complete all 3 factions will have done so within a couple months.

    What nonsense.  Guild Wars did pretty well for itself without raiding.  So did Wizard 101 (max group size of 4).  So did EVE (no identifiable endgame to speak of).

    Furthermore, raids aren't what made WoW successful.  The leveling content is what made WoW successful.  If all that WoW had was its endgame, it would have tanked, too.  And I don't merely mean not as successful as it has been; it would have been a commercial failure.

  • ForumPvPForumPvP KingstownPosts: 871Member
    in the end the answer is pretty simple,because Zenimax dont know how to do it so its better to skip it.

    Is it better to skip it? is another question but hey its their first MMO.
    They are allready skipping things like PvP for the same reason,because they just dont know how.

    Compare that to Bethesda ,they pretty much knew what they were doing but this company doesnt ,theres no magic just lack of knowledge.

    Edit:maybe they will add it later.

    Let's internet

  • HellidolHellidol TACOMA, WAPosts: 405Member Uncommon

    TBH, you have to open your mind up, you have that (hate to say it but they set the standard for this type of gaming) wow mentaliity. Some of the first and most successful MMO's never had raiding, and before one of you small minded people say well they didnt survive because they didnt have raiding you are completely wrong. The older MMOs died off for many of reasons but because they never had raiding is not one of them. They died off because of poor programing, dated graphics, dated game play ect. Having external mass group fights is a good thing, it influences pvp and brings life back to RPKing.

    Personally I am very happy they wont have raiding and the way they are going about this game. It stop simplicity while promoting creativity which IMO equals gaming interest and growth.

    If raiding is something you like to do and you believe that primarly defeating large mobs on a large scale is fun then there are plenty MMO's out there that do just that, the best one IMO is wow.

     

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  • VembumeesVembumees WildStarPosts: 79Member
    Originally posted by Ecoces

    people don't like raids because of the attitudes that come with it and because those people that demand raids usually try to force their agenda on everyone else and the developers.

     

    I read in another post of yours(OP) you mention something to the extent of "whats wrong with having unique gear from raids as well as crafting". here is the problem with that logic is raiders actually will cry and moan if you got raid quality gear from crafting. ever play rift? do you know that in Alpha and Beta Trion said that you would be able to get the best gear in games from Raids, PVP or Crafting ... that the player would be able to get the best gear no matter their playstyle.

     

    yeah that lasted till the first new raid zone came out with a bit better gear. then the "bads" or "casuals" as they are called by raiders wondered when crafting would get new recipes to make comparable gear. only to be shouted down by raiders saying "oh you shouldn't get gear as good as raiders if you don't raid".

     

    but they did add where you could add Raid quality gear to crafting ..... if you got mats that dropped from raid instances lol.

     

    that and also Raiders try to strong arm the developers in developing new content only for them. i have seen it too many times where if the developers work on a lower level zone the raiders complain, if the developers work on fluff things the raiders complain. hell if the developers work on anything that isn't the new script for that new boss for that new raid zone that only 1% of the population will ever see the raiders complain.

    I thought casuals and bads are, you know, casuals and bads. If you are shit in whatever game you play, you will be called out for it. You can go play Maple story and if you are a casual and bad, then you are a casual and baddie. Understand that. There's nothing wrong with being casual player, but don't expect people to treat you equally, when you have barely even tenth of the experience of the hardcore player.

    I don't give a shit what gives what gear honestly, but it is just frustrating to see people cry about the elitism, elitism has nothing to do with raiding. I probably play god damn, I have no idea how much I play games overall, mostly 8-14 hours a day for years straight. Of course I am elitist in every game. Because I AM better player than the person who spends 3 hours a day. I am better than him at the game in every way, more skilled, more experienced and understand the mechanics 4-5x more.  I don't know, maybe you are just too young to understand it, but that's how entier world works. That's how real life is. A person who works 15 hours a day is better at the profession than you who work 8 hours a day. And if you ask your boss to get paid as much for same work as the guy who works 15 hours a day and you get insulted for that, is that elitism? Where is your brain kid.

  • VembumeesVembumees WildStarPosts: 79Member
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by hMJem
    Originally posted by FromHell
    [mod edit]

    And every game that has refused to have a real end-game has tanked compared to expectations. There is a reason Everquest and WoW are the kings of MMOs. And I guarantee you when Everquest Next comes out, despite Elder Scrolls having the more relevant fanbase, Everquest Next will have much more subscribers than ESO. Both are coming out this year.

     

    Sorry, Cyrodill and crafting isnt an end-game that will make people play for 3+ months, and anyone who wants to complete all 3 factions will have done so within a couple months.

    What nonsense.  Guild Wars did pretty well for itself without raiding.  So did Wizard 101 (max group size of 4).  So did EVE (no identifiable endgame to speak of).

    Furthermore, raids aren't what made WoW successful.  The leveling content is what made WoW successful.  If all that WoW had was its endgame, it would have tanked, too.  And I don't merely mean not as successful as it has been; it would have been a commercial failure.

    Eve is a sandbox game, in sandbox games players make endgame. There is no need for raid content if players can do whatever the fuck they want, even make hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of damage to other players.

    Wizard 101 and guild wars. I think you don't understand. A company like Zenimax doesn't want to do pretty well for itself. That's a god damn multimillion company, they are already doing FAR MORE THAN WELL. They want to be successful and make massive amounts of profit. Any indie game is doing well too. Tibia is doing well too right now, you know? Does Zenimax aim for the playerbase of the size of Tibia, Guild Wars 2, Wizard 101? Hell no.

  • TalulaRoseTalulaRose Long Island, NYPosts: 480Member Uncommon

    No raiding means no money beyond the box price.

     

    Just look at the GW2 polls that asked if people were spending money in the cash shop. 70% of the so called fans said no. an anyone call themelves a fan if they wont support the game?

  • korent1991korent1991 CakovecPosts: 1,390Member
    Originally posted by hMJem
    Originally posted by rojo6934

    if Zenimax adds raids and instanced dungeons to TESO they have to do a really good job with them so the game doesnt become a gear grinder like other mmos. Im not expecting that experience out of a TES mmo. So if tahts what we are going to get for a TES mmo (a dungeon threadmill progression game) ill be happy to stick to TES single player games.

     

    Thats just me and i hope its not the case. Instead add persistent raiding or something.

    See, but just play devils advocate on that point. Why should I HAVE to do other factions to get better gear? What if I'm satisfied questing wise after capping my level? Just like people in traditional MMORPGs feel like they are obligated to gear but dont want to Raid.

     

    Why should I HAVE to craft to get the best gear in the game? You can play that on two major points advertised in the game.

     

    Why CANT I raid to get equivalent gear or atleast unique gear? If the game is about choice, it doesnt sound like you have much choice -- Do all the factions, and craft and trade with other expertise crafters. Maybe World Bosses drop sexy loot, we have no ideas but World Bosses are/were confirmed.

    simple. because they don't want you to raid in their game...

    it's been overused and the glory days for raiding are over. If you're creating a new mmorpg you can't just give people the same old crap they've seen a thousand times and just pack it into somehting that "looks" different but plays exactly the same.

    edit: now that I think about it again, raiding actually can be done in the game but it has to be rehauled because the form in which raiding exists now is just boring and it's not fun anymore after so many years of having it in exactly the same mechanics.

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  • JasonJJasonJ New Port Richey, FLPosts: 395Member
    Originally posted by Vembumees

    Wizard 101 and guild wars. I think you don't understand. A company like Zenimax doesn't want to do pretty well for itself. That's a god damn multimillion company, they are already doing FAR MORE THAN WELL. They want to be successful and make massive amounts of profit. Any indie game is doing well too. Tibia is doing well too right now, you know? Does Zenimax aim for the playerbase of the size of Tibia, Guild Wars 2, Wizard 101? Hell no.

     I already pointed out above, if they wanted to make massive amounts of profit, they wouldnt have used the crapfest DaoC game design that FEW in the MMORPG market know about, or like.

    A game that had 250k players at a time when 3 other games had MORE is not a design to base yourself off of when there are now some 20 million MORE players that have since joined the market and have NO CONCEPTION of this closed of faction crap with funneled PvP content that the market as a whole did NOT WANT TO EMULATE because of the tiny box it paints the game into.

    And it sure as hell is not targetting the IPs fanbase with that design either. Its targetting DaoC fans, and there are not enough of them to do what you are saying. the only hope they have of making a massive profit is if every single TES fan buys it and then quits because it isnt what they want. Then, they will get their quick payback on their initial investment from box sales and make their profit off the DaoC fans playing only to then go F2P shortly afterwards because the company wanted MORE.

    Either way, no amount of raids is going to give them the profits they are expecting. DaoCs game design will keep the millions they are expecting away.

  • Thebrave246Thebrave246 Carle Place, NYPosts: 174Member

    [mod edit] Raids add longevity, more team work and more fun to the game, rather then doing the dungeons. I know that in my gaming life, I have played PLENTY of mmorpgs and the ones with raids almost ALWAYS are better then the ones without. Sure there are some and they  are popular and pretty successful without the raids, but trust me when I say raiding is good for the community, good for longevity of the game, and is a fun activity to do with 8, 16, or even 32 players. I miss the good old large raiding in Everquest and EQ2, even in SWTOR the raids were ok for a little while, just wish there were more of them and stuff like that. Raids bring organization, and guild life to the game.

     

    These 4-player dungeons just seem like a quick fix for people who want to do raids and team work and guild events and they DO NOT last for a long time, they are pretty short compared to raids and they, in the end, just seem like a quick fix for people who want raids.

  • JasonJJasonJ New Port Richey, FLPosts: 395Member
    Originally posted by TalulaRose

    No raiding means no money beyond the box price.

     

    Just look at the GW2 polls that asked if people were spending money in the cash shop. 70% of the so called fans said no. an anyone call themelves a fan if they wont support the game?

     70% not buying means 30% is...30% of 3 million people is 900,000.

    If 900k spend just $10 a month thats 9,000,000 per month (equal to 600k subs), 108,000,000 per year.

    And THAT is why you people cannot grasp how companies like Nexon, Perfect World, NCsoft and so many other F2P companies are taking over the market...they make profits far beyond subscription based companies outside of Blizzard. Jesus, Nexon spent somewhere around 400 MILLION dollars in buying out or investing in other companies last year, that is INSANE.

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