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Why no RAIDS?
hMJem
Member Posts: 465
Much like how hardcore TES fans wanted 1st person even though traditional MMO fans didnt care, it was added in because it doesnt hurt anyone.
Why arent there raids? We know there might be world bosses, but we dont know if it will drop worthy loot or be more of a fun thing to do.
When you look at an MMO, you go "Okay, so how will the game LAST?" and as awesome as Cyrodill sounds, with no Arena/arranged smaller scale PvP things to do, I dont see the game surviving off Cyrodill alone.
Being able to do the other factions zones once youre capped? Awesome. Really awesome. Designed for the single player guys who dont want to play with others or if youre just intrigued with the zones and want to experience them without re-rolling.
They say the game "really opens up" at 50, but how does it open up that much for traditional MMORPG fans? A lot of people wont want to do the other factions.
How do designed 10-20 main Raids with unique fights and unique drops hurt anyone? (But not necessarily the best, or whats the harm with making them on-par with crafting or atleast unique items? So you can get unique crafting-only items and unique raiding-only items) Just like people arent forced to do the other factions, you arent forced to Raid or PvP.
I dont know, I imagine after youve played the game for 2 months and dungeons no longer give you better gear due to crafting, maybe the hype of Cyrodill goes away. Then where is the appeal? They'd need to be adding dungeons and more world bosses.
I guess I just dont get where raiding hurts this MMORPG. Just because it has Elder Scrolls in the title? Much like 1st person was appeased for TES fans, I dont see the harm here.
If the answer is "You're forced to gear up through crafting/doing the other factions" Then what is the difference between forcing people to do Raids to gear up? And they dont even have to force people to Raid -- But give them the option atleast for on-par items or unique items. Maybe they can make unique items from the 3rd faction zone you complete, unique items from crafting, and unique items from raiding. Doesn't everybody win? You wouldnt be forced to do it, but maybe it gives you some cool gear that would benefit a certain build type.
Before anyone thinks I'm a hater: I'm not. Buying this game Day 1 and super excited. Just a question I have.
Comments
I dont think it's about harm dude.I think it's about time.
Time is money and guess what companies care only for your money and not what you want.
Once they get all your money they dont care.
1st person may be more easy to be implemented than raids which means less time which again means MORE MONEY FOR THEM!!
If they plan to add in Raids I'm fine with that. But from what someone linked, it sounds like they never want raiding.
And I just try to imagine what MMORPG fans (and not necessarily hardcore Elder Scrolls fans) would do after a couple months. As far as we know, there is no PvP gear to be gained from Cyrodill and its just for fun. Crafting is already confirmed to atleast be one of if not the best tool to get the best gear. Although dungeons are supposed to give "good gear" but thats like comparing Heroics and Raids in WoW if you ask me, there IS a clear difference.
As much as die hard Elder Scrolls fans want to say "This is OUR game" it is an MMORPG too. If this game is subscription based, I struggle to see where subscription numbers increase compared to decrease after a couple months
if Zenimax adds raids and instanced dungeons to TESO they have to do a really good job with them so the game doesnt become a gear grinder like other mmos. Im not expecting that experience out of a TES mmo. So if tahts what we are going to get for a TES mmo (a dungeon threadmill progression game) ill be happy to stick to TES single player games.
Thats just me and i hope its not the case. Instead add persistent raiding or something.
See, but just play devils advocate on that point. Why should I HAVE to do other factions to get better gear? What if I'm satisfied questing wise after capping my level? Just like people in traditional MMORPGs feel like they are obligated to gear but dont want to Raid.
Why should I HAVE to craft to get the best gear in the game? You can play that on two major points advertised in the game.
Why CANT I raid to get equivalent gear or atleast unique gear? If the game is about choice, it doesnt sound like you have much choice -- Do all the factions, and craft and trade with other expertise crafters. Maybe World Bosses drop sexy loot, we have no ideas but World Bosses are/were confirmed.
Why no raids? Because raids are freaking boring. They exist simply to addict the gamer to the game with a regular dopamine hit and extend a games life by adding boring content you have to do a hundred times over to get your 'l33t g34r!' Kill me now!
There are several successful MMOGs around now that don't have raids. It's my hope they die a horrible death.
thats why i said they have to do a pretty good job with their game, because it wouldnt make any sense to have a new mmo based on the world of TES and when you dig into it its just another generic threadmill which i am hoping its not. Raiding is fine, just not a rinse and repeat mechanic to get better stuff and then becoming a tier grind. Not only its generic, it doesnt belong in TES world. Thats also why i said why not instead have persistent raiding. It should be more fun, even more social, and more massive.
People who are expecting this game to be just like other Elder Scrolls games are mistaken. This is an MMORPG. They require longevity. And I fail to see the longevity in Cyrodill and crafting. After a couple months the people who will have wanted to explore all 3 factions will have already done so.
Then what? We're left to dungeons that apparently will have cool fights but drop inferior gear to crafting? Unless the monsters in dungeons drop unique crafting materials or unique/great gear, I dont see a point to do dungeons.
This game is gonna be a grind whether you want it to be or not. It's an MMORPG. There is no way to avoid best gear item grinding. It's gonna happen whether there are raids or not. I dont see the harm in Raids, and I'm not gonna respond to the guy with the "trolol i hate raids and hope they die" because he refused to play both sides. If I'm forced to craft and do all 3 factions for the best gear, I'm still being FORCED, which is what people complain about with Raiding. Why not make all 3 optional -- You can get unique gear from crafting, from completing the 3rd faction, and from Raiding. Not necessarily BETTER, but unique so like "Oh, I've heard this item is good for this build I'm doing, so I'll have fun experiencing that and getting upgrades." I'm not even against unique items from doing Cyrodill enough or something, but I know a lot of people would be like "BRO THAT ISNT ELDER SCROLLS" This is an MMORPG that is mass advertised/hyped about, it already isnt gonna be like Skryim. But that is okay because when you see the game and read about it and see the world and characters and such it feels like an Elder Scrolls game
I think this is probably most accurate.
Also, when you make one raid available, people will assume you will continue to make more as time goes on. How much time does creating and balancing a raid require? How many people have to be on that team? How often do new raids come out?
Furthermore, I think it is kind of a risk to put out progression raids, with little reward. The percentage of a population who aggressively raids is small. If ZOS created raiding content, it would inevitably be compared to the gold standard WoW raids. This is an assumption, but I am willing to guess not too many dev teams have the experience required to make a raid that is on par with WoW's content, nor the ability to make them continuously. Other features will be expected as well, like an LFR system, to make raids accessible to the largest audience possible.
All of this boils down to time and resources required vs. return on that investment. I'm guessing they decided it wasnt worth it.
I've never been a raider in any of the games I've played (mostly pre-Cata WoW), and having no raids doesn't really bother me. But, what I'd like to know: What is so amazing in TESO's PvP that keeps you logging on every single day after you've hit the max level?
I've recently played Champions of Regnum with my friend and learned it's just a quest grind 'till near max lvl, mob grind for there on, and then PvP to siege bases that change owner from one to another.
Now, I'm almost certain there will be no mob grind part in TESO, but exactly how does the PvP have an impact for the rest of the game, and why would I want as a member of a faction X to perform well in PvP (other than the usual 'it's fun to wtfpwn other players')? I know crafting is an important way to improve your gear (and i'm very happy this is the case), but how does doing well in PvP benefit your faction?
If the answer is 'no, it doesn't really matter wether you win or lose in PvP', then I'm very disappointed there's no raids or other stuff to do for those that doesn't care about PvP. Four (or five) man dungeons are not enough to keep your players busy in these modern MMOs (they were in WoW when it was its prime).
Why would there be raids? Few people like raids, and those few are already very well catered to. Going after a niche market that you can have all to yourself sometimes makes sense, but going after a niche market that already has more competition than the size of the market can justify does not.
If they did have raids, then everyone would expect raids to give far and away the best gear. If they didn't, then raiders wouldn't be satisfied, and would go elsewhere, so no one would like the raids. Rather than put all that work into creating content that everyone hates even if it's done very well, why not spend the same effort creating content that people might actually like?
i dont know,maybe they have bigger plans....
Let's internet
Umm I really like large group dungeons. I want content I can participate in with a sizable chunk of my guild.
It creates unity and bonding.
Large group means you can have a diverse selection of roles you can't really get away with in smaller group content.
I think that NOT putting raiding in is a mistake.
Public/open world large group stuff is mostly a joke as is proven by GW2 and RIFT - all zerg no coordination or real skill needed.
People WANT large group content for their guild.
Thinking that it HAS to be solo > small group > large group progression and gear progression is YOUR limited vision.
"If you build it they will come" would completely work with Raid content - doesn't have to have "better" gear.
Unique looks and acheivments etc. is fine.
Power curve can be flat.
If the raids of your game are boring, blame your developers...
But then back on topic, nowhere it states that there will not be raids in this game, it just says there probably will be no raids at release.... Release is only the first step in the lifecycle of an MMO.
Raids are fine as long as they are not the only endgame provided.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
If "no raids" turns out to be true they better have something good to replace it, "no end game" is considered one of the worst things about gw2 and hurt the game, lack of content in their end game is what killed swtor (and many other theme park mmo's.
Seems like a real stupid move to me
So what does Paul Sage mean in the video below when he says heroic raids?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sv160bre2og#t=403s
you either focus on raids (instanced endgame) or on open world engame.
sure, here we dont have a real open world, but i'd say the end content will be more interesting than trying to gather 9 friends, make em all play the propper class and then raid twice a week.
lovely to see how the pvers wont get the end content of this game
they seem to focus on their pvp zone alot, it has 3 or more mentions in their official preview.
you want raids? don't we already have enough of them around?
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Ive watched every Paul Sage video the past couple weeks, and I am fairly confident he meant Heroic Dungeons. Many people have said "dungeons" and not raids. Probably a simple mistake over the course of 10 interviews in a day. I can link 3 other videos where heroic "dungeon" is the term everyone used. And its just a level 50 version of the dungeons with drops that are worse than what you can craft.
That would be the biggest breathe of fresh air in MMO gaming in a very long time.
We don't need these gimmicks or stereotyping that RAIDS means better or more skilled because it really means nothing more than ,more players.
Absolutely ANYTHING you want to accomplish in your game can be done with a normal size group,large size raids are never necessary.It seems the whole young kids crowd that joined Wow got this stigma attached in their brain that thinks it means you are "COOL" when you can say ,"I am in the most L33T raid guild in the game.
After all the drama we have seen in games,we can most definitely do without EGOS or anything that causes drama in games.
What follows is typical,"you are a noob,my guild does top raids all the time." or "you don't know anything,until you have done as many Raids as me" ect ect ect.Really childish stuff that we don't need in gaming.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
There are egos in any multiplayer game. Any developer who tries to care-bear their franchise is making a big mistake
You're playing an MMORPG. You're playing a game with PvP. Sorry, there will be builds that will be better than others. There will be people who have better gear than you, and may or may not choose to shove it in your face or deny playing with you if you dont have equivalent gear.
I play League of Legends and if you can't just ignore what people say that's pretty weak. Because League is by far the most toxic community I've ever been around, and if what they say actually ruins your experience or makes you mad, you're mentally weak or have anger issues.
And every game that has refused to have a real end-game has tanked compared to expectations. There is a reason Everquest and WoW are the kings of MMOs. And I guarantee you when Everquest Next comes out, despite Elder Scrolls having the more relevant fanbase, Everquest Next will have much more subscribers than ESO. Both are coming out this year.
Sorry, Cyrodill and crafting isnt an end-game that will make people play for 3+ months, and anyone who wants to complete all 3 factions will have done so within a couple months.
It's funny how all of the raiders come out of the woodwork when a new mmo is announced. You guys have a buttload of mmos centered around raiding, why can't you guys let the none raiders have a game of their own. You guys ruined TOR with this raid nonsense, a game that was suppose to have catered to KOTOR fans and non-raiders. Yet you guys cried to the heavens until you got your way, and than TOR turned into yet another gear treadmill. Everything else that was planned got thrown out of the window.
You guys argue about how non-raider mmo hop, and how raiders sustain an mmo. It's funny how all of the raiders seem to jump to every new mmo that comes out or is announced, and the first question that is asked is "will there be raiding"? or what will the raids be like?" In the end the game turns into a boring instance/raid grind for gear with boring dailies. What ever happened to open ended gameplay where gear didn't matter AC anyone. Last but not least, the trinity people complain about that, now mmos devs are trying to kill it by adding action based combat. So now raiding is on the chopping block.
I'm sorry, but I'm failing to see how regurgitating the same raid content will keep people playing longer than crafting and PvP.
Most multiplayer games thrive of PvP, why can't MMO's? is it because the majority of MMO players are 'care bears' and can only handle PvE content?