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The only MMO I played that had raids was WoW. I do not count rift which I quit after 30 levels.
Despite the fact that I did enjoy them in WoW, raids are still among the least important features of MMO, for me.
It is about the principles, mechanisms, complexity, not about how many rides there are in the game.
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus As long as there is enough challenging groupcontent its not a problem...
16 dungeons and not all have level 50 hard mode but they hope to have that sometime after launch. Is that enough?
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Originally posted by hMJem I ask you to answer my biggest question above: Why does Raiding with unique gear hurt the game if theyre forcing you to craft and do all 3 factions for the best gear, and where does this game sit after 2 months of launch?
This argument has been going on since EQ1 brought in super uber godly swords of burn your face off for sitting in the same spot for HOURS waiting for a mob to spawn.
Gear should never be the single focus of a game and that is exactly what raids for loot content does. If you DONT do it, you get left behind and content suddenyl becomes out of reach to the playerbase.
WHY? Why should content have to have a shiney that makes a player more powerful? WHY? Why does the games focus then have to turn to making harder and harder content without end? There is NO point. An MMO should be focused on making content that is ALWAYS viable because it is NOT POSSIBLE for a company to keep up if content in the game, becomes no longer playable.
Let the super uber dragon god of destruction drop costume that changes the LOOK of your armor to something cool, a flag, a weapon SKIN, a cool mount or pet...something that is for LOOKS. There is your shiney. A shiney that still points to you having accomplished something yet doesnt imbalance the game.
This is where you respond with the a typical refute thats been done to death the last 13+ years that actually doesnt refute anything and just smacks of I NEED AN ADVANTAGE IN PVP SO GIVE ME MAH UBER LOOT SO I CAN HAZ FACEROLLZ!
Originally posted by Nanfoodle Originally posted by Nadia im fine without raids but that will be a turnoff for others
Does that not concern you? That this could take away from your MMO just by the fact there is a population that will just quit after they get level 50 because of no raids for that type of player.
said population is overstated. TSW is a treadmill game with raiding, SWTOR same, RIFT same, all down to catastrophic player loss within 6-8 months and forced F2P.
Frior saw first hand, he doesn't need you forum kids contemplating for him. he helped to KILL DAoC by introducing PVE riaid grinding in a game where it wasn't wanted. all that happens now is jesse cox and all the rest of blizzrd's afterbirth will leave slightly faster than they would have anyway and TESO will likely find its own path.
Originally posted by Maephisto Originally posted by Nanfoodle POSTED BY, Livnthedream: Link to more info on this topic HERE!!!!
The forum poll from the link you posted, kind of kills the purpose of that thread.
The number of people who voted "don't care" and "no raids" outnumbers those who want raids. Despite the low number of people who voted on that topic, lets assume it is a decent sample size and reflects the view of the TESO population. From that poll, it would not be a smart idea to dedicate resources to develop raiding content.
(they could have provided different questions to make raiding seem more popular I guess)
If thats the case then I guess the numerous polls where housing pops up similar results means housing should not be included either then right? The fact is those who "don't care either way" are generally those who just have no made up their mind on the topic.
Originally posted by Rthuth434 Originally posted by Livnthedream I hear no raids are doing wonders for TSW. Also, inb4 "massive group events are the same as raidz!".
TSW is a full raiding treadmill game, they just can't pump it out fast enough. TSW has millions of problems though, so it's a poor measuring stick for the solvency of ANY feature.
Wrong. Its played like that by many because the strategy works and those ingame push it, but it honestly is not. The gear caps and general progression model actually does not play well into vertical progression at all. Though I will agree that TSW has a ton of different issues that all connect in various ways.
Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!
Originally posted by hMJem Originally posted by kabitoshin This game to me seems like its main focus will be the PvP.
Cyrodill gives no unique items and such that we're aware of. It seems much more of a casual thing to do for fun. You really think this game is gonna be all - end all with Cyrodill? I sure hope that isnt Zenimax's plan. PvP endgame survives on World PvP (And Cyrodill hardly counts as World PvP to me, its designed. World PvP isnt designed, it just happens wherever you see the opposition, which isnt the case) and stuff like Arenas/Battlegrounds. If Cyrodill is their end-game plan since there is no raiding, then I am concerned. It sounds like crafting is the be all end all of getting gear, so I doubt these World Bosses give anything unique and are just a for fun thing. And lets be honest, do you see yourself doing the same World Boss 20 times if it offers nothing new or better?
I have done many a raid just because it was fun and I already had all the gear I wanted. Im not a gear hound but I know not all raiders think like me.
Originally posted by Livnthedream Originally posted by Maephisto Originally posted by Nanfoodle POSTED BY, Livnthedream: Link to more info on this topic HERE!!!!
Originally posted by Rthuth434 Originally posted by Livnthedream I hear no raids are doing wonders for TSW. Also, inb4 "massive group events are the same as raidz!".
it doesn't play well into vertical progression because the content is barebones and wont last even with the 16 hour lockouts. there is a full fleshed out tier heiarchy thoguh and it does have the single greatest effect on player peformance in pve and pve...like every gear treadmil game. the progression in TSw is completely linear and vertcal, 100%.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle So can you live with a MMO that has no raids? Or will that make ESO a pit stop for you before you run off to a new MMO that you and your guildies can really enjoy? Info comes from HERE!!!! : There are no raids, after all – "That's not Elder Scrolls," says Game Director Matt Firor – but there are four-man dungeons and three-faction open PvP with sieges in the beleaguered province of Cyrodiil. POSTED BY, Livnthedream: Link to more info on this topic HERE!!!!
This game is going to be more of a PVP game than a PVE game so I am not surprised. I am not going to play because I like raiding, yea I play SWTOR now and only do 8 man raiding. Thats what I find fun to each their own.
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin
Originally posted by Nanfoodle Originally posted by hMJem Originally posted by kabitoshin This game to me seems like its main focus will be the PvP.
i like the feeling of logging on and feeling like I can improve my character. I dont want to log on and be like "Well time to do my routine explorations of finding materials for crafting" I love the immersion and such, dont get me wrong. But when I'm 50, then I want to improve (while still having fun) I am sure doing the other two factions will be fun. THEN WHAT THOUGH?! Because I guarantee you if this game is pay to play, anyone who wants to complete all three factions will have done so after a couple months.
If I'm Zenimax, I ask myself "Which group is going to keep this game alive longer -- The Elder Scrolls diehards, or the MMORPG fans?" and I don't have a clear answer. My gut tells me after the first few months, it is the MMORPG fans that keep the game alive and strong, but maybe I'm wrong or maybe it's dead even.
See, there will be elitists no matter what you play. You know there are Super Smash Brothers Brawl tournaments? That game was designed as a party game and people play it with thousands of dollars on the line. Imagine if the World Bosses are actually hard -- and a group has to ask you to leave or not accept you because youre not understanding the fight and are hurting the team or arent skilled enough for it? What is the difference in that? What if someone doesnt want you in a 4 man dungeon if its hard because youre incompetent and hurting the team there too?
I also liked the idea of some of the monsters in a raid or the boss in a raid dropping a rare crafting material everyone gets. Then Raiders have reason to be crafters and crafters have reason to dabble in Raids. If your answer is "Great, I'm a casual who is forced to Raid' No. You really dont. You see, one way or another, you'll have to invest time to get the best gear in the game if that is your goal. If youre playing for immersion and the single player experience, you have hundreds of hours of content dedicated to you with the three factions questing and with crafting.
Originally posted by Rthuth434 it doesn't play well into vertical progression because the content is barebones and wont last even with the 16 hour lockouts. there is a full fleshed out tier heiarchy thoguh and it does have the single greatest effect on player peformance in pve and pve...like every gear treadmil game. the progression in TSw is completely linear and vertcal, 100%.
Its not actually linear though thanks to how deminishing returns and opposing stats work. It is one of TSW's many problems, its dev team has no clue how to effectively use the systems they already have set in place.
If they were looking to do something you didn't participate in anyways, would you miss them? It really should never concern you what others do just as long as you are getting enjoyment out of the product.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle Originally posted by spookydom I am more than happy without raids, never really like the elitist crap and drooling tools it brings to the table. However it seems a bit like they are cutting of their nose to spite their face not including it for the very lucrative audience that enjoys it.
Not all raiders are elitist. I used to be a hard core raider back in my EQ1 days but now I dont care if I get best gear in the game but I do like lrage scale PvE raids my guildies and I can go do. Raids dont even need to give the best gear in the game, just equal to it. If they are fun and a challange is all most raiders need.
Yeah I was generalising too much. I was a hardcore raider for years and wasn't elitest either....But from time to time I was a drooling tool
Originally posted by hMJem Originally posted by Nanfoodle Originally posted by hMJem Originally posted by kabitoshin This game to me seems like its main focus will be the PvP.
I dont like the dogma of MMO gear grind beinging the answer any more. We used to play games because they were fun and thats the reason IMO we should be playing games. Chasing the carrot because a new set of gear comes out every 6-12 months IMO is dumb content. Its time to make raiding about fun again!!!
Originally posted by Bossalinie Originally posted by Nanfoodle Originally posted by Nadia im fine without raids but that will be a turnoff for others
No one is forcing you to Raid. You see, one way or another, if you want the best gear in the game, it isnt going to be handed to you. If you only play for single player, that's fine. They just gave you the ability to do the other factions quests, which I presume will take hundreds of hours to complete. Is that not a single player experience you enjoy? Does it bug you that there would be people raiding with better gear than you? (Or maybe even equivalent, but why does them raiding hurt you?)
There were Elder Scrolls fans who wanted this game DELAYED for 1st person, a feature mainly designed for you. I see no one that wants this game delayed for Raids. If it doesnt hurt you, why do you not want it in the game? I guarantee you whether this game has Raids or not, there will be elitists. Youre playing an MMORPG. There will be e-peen strokers and elitists in any game that has gear and a way to min/max.
If thats the case then I guess the numerous polls where housing pops up similar results means housing should not be included either then right? The fact is those who "don't care either way" are generally those who just have not made up their mind on the topic.
Also, if these polls were to be used any any official capacity, it wouldn't be used to determine what is or is not included in a game. Rather, what the priorities should be.
That isnt a fact, you are projecting. "I honestly don't care" is not ambiguous in meaning. Once again, the creator of that poll could have chosen questions that puts raiding in a more positive light. As it stands, it shouldnt be used to prove the lack of raiding is harmful to TESO. (Im actually doing raiders a favor here)
Take the OP's poll for instance. Is there any wiggle room in that?
I have not raided since EQ2, and after that experance i dount i will ever willing sign up for 20+ hours of raiding a week again. That being said I do like open/contested raid dungeons, and contested pve encouters in open pvp areas. Basically I have no desire to sit through a 4 hour slog in a scripted closed raiding enviroment, but am open to a contested/dynamic raid experance.
Originally posted by hMJem Originally posted by Bossalinie Originally posted by Nanfoodle Originally posted by Nadia im fine without raids but that will be a turnoff for others
IMO you should want a little of each type of player to have a strong community. You may not be a crafter but you should want them in your game. You may not be a raider but they add to the community as much as the crafter. Alienating a group from your MMO IMO can have a negitive impact on the game.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle Originally posted by hMJem Originally posted by Nanfoodle Originally posted by hMJem Originally posted by kabitoshin This game to me seems like its main focus will be the PvP.
Just because raiding isnt fun to you doesnt mean it isnt to others. What if people dont WANT to do the other two factions because they're wiped out from doing so many quests already? As long as there are gear slots, people will grind for gear. And as I stated, I'm a competitive guy in life. I have FUN challenging myself and getting better. Of course I like the sappy stuff like the cool environments, the immersion, all that. But I also have fun challenging myself. Spanking some World Boss for the 40th time with no chance of an upgrade isnt fun. PvP isnt just gonna be"Let the best man win!"Because that is impossible in a game with gear. If you're a poorly geared Level 50, I doubt you can keep up with a "best geared" 50 in PvP.
What does one do at lvl 50?
I think organizing a raid with people is what makes an MMORPG an MMORPG to some extent....
It brings that player to player connection, it establishes a "friendship" with specific players making the entire MMO expierence that much more enjoyable each time you log on.
PvP : Is this another stand still until my attack goes off game? The age old argument that its more skill than tab target is just a silly argument IMO, what is skillful about putting your cross hairs on a target and mashing a few buttons? It makes for very slow boring combat imo, if anything let me put my cross hairs on you and hit my buttons all while jumping/strafing/running.
Im struggling to find something exciting about this game, something new and innovative, something that will make me want to come back to the game over and over again......
Originally posted by Nanfoodle I dont like the dogma of MMO gear grind beinging the answer any more. We used to play games because they were fun and thats the reason IMO we should be playing games. Chasing the carrot because a new set of gear comes out every 6-12 months IMO is dumb content. Its time to make raiding about fun again!!!
I disagree with this assessment because they are not mutually exclusive, nor does what you consider fun about raiding means its what the majority considers fun. I also disagree because going forward all service based games are going to include some sort of carrot, its suicide not to. There are simply too many different games to hope to keep any kind of decent sized playerbase without hooking them on your game in one form or another.
For me no raids is a positive thing and will actually be a consideration on to buy or not.
If it had raids as an end game then it would be an automatic pass for me. Now it will probably be worth the box price to try for a month at least.
Originally posted by jdnewell For me no raids is a positive thing and will actually be a consideration on to buy or not. If it had raids as an end game then it would be an automatic pass for me. Now it will probably be worth the box price to try for a month at least.
Why would having raids make you not purchase the game? Just curious
If the game had more sandbox elements and meaningful PVP, it could certainly be successful without raids but I can't imagine that the current level cap activities would keep players engaged for very long.
I'll certainly give the game a try but my guess is that I'll move on after a month or two.