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Richard Garriott “I think most game designers really just suck”

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by MumboJumbo
    If he says this after SotA releases to 10/10 reviews, then I might lend him an ear.

    That is ... IF he actually makes a complete game first. We will see if that happens.

  • ScambugScambug TortugaPosts: 389Member

    Judging a game developper is just as hard as judging an actor or a film composer, you never know what comes from them or the person directing them.

    What's pretty obvious is that the decision makers mostly suck, but those aren't always the developpers. Usually they're business majors who know nothing about gaming and even less about designing games.

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member
    Originally posted by Aeolyn
    Just wondering, how many of you have actually read the whole article this thread refers to? "I’m not saying that because I think I’m so brilliant. What I’m saying is, I think most game designers really just suck, and I think there’s a reason why.”

    It's actually an interesting critique of the dynamics of a large company.  His argument is basically that because it's harder to objectively measure good design skill over good coding skill, people who are good at a specialized technical role (art, coding, etc) are increasingly pidgeon-holed into those roles over their careers, leaving behind a pool of people for design that are basically the people who didn't fit anywhere else, whether or not they are actually good at it.

    It's hard to make that sort of general argument about group dynamics without each individual designer feeling personally slapped across the face.

     

  • PsychowPsychow SF Giants Territory, CAPosts: 1,784Member
    Originally posted by maplestone
    Originally posted by Aeolyn
    Just wondering, how many of you have actually read the whole article this thread refers to? "I’m not saying that because I think I’m so brilliant. What I’m saying is, I think most game designers really just suck, and I think there’s a reason why.”

    It's actually an interesting critique of the dynamics of a large company.  His argument is basically that because it's harder to objectively measure good design skill over good coding skill, people who are good at a specialized technical role (art, coding, etc) are increasingly pidgeon-holed into those roles over their careers, leaving behind a pool of people for design that are basically the people who didn't fit anywhere else, whether or not they are actually good at it.

    It's hard to make that sort of general argument about group dynamics without each individual designer feeling personally slapped across the face.

     

     

    There is a saying in my and other professions: "Those that do...do...those that cannot do....teach"

     

    I think the same thing applies here. Those that program or do art...do...those that cannot do (as well)....game design.

     

     

  • AeolynAeolyn Langley, BCPosts: 208Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by maplestone
    Originally posted by Aeolyn
    Just wondering, how many of you have actually read the whole article this thread refers to? "I’m not saying that because I think I’m so brilliant. What I’m saying is, I think most game designers really just suck, and I think there’s a reason why.”

    It's actually an interesting critique of the dynamics of a large company.  His argument is basically that because it's harder to objectively measure good design skill over good coding skill, people who are good at a specialized technical role (art, coding, etc) are increasingly pidgeon-holed into those roles over their careers, leaving behind a pool of people for design that are basically the people who didn't fit anywhere else, whether or not they are actually good at it.

    It's hard to make that sort of general argument about group dynamics without each individual designer feeling personally slapped across the face.

     

    That's basically what I took from it too, as well as the reinforcement that creative types tend to be at least slightly self-absorbed and therefore not as empathetic as one would hope for.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Psychow
    Originally posted by maplestone
    Originally posted by Aeolyn
    Just wondering, how many of you have actually read the whole article this thread refers to? "I’m not saying that because I think I’m so brilliant. What I’m saying is, I think most game designers really just suck, and I think there’s a reason why.”

    It's actually an interesting critique of the dynamics of a large company.  His argument is basically that because it's harder to objectively measure good design skill over good coding skill, people who are good at a specialized technical role (art, coding, etc) are increasingly pidgeon-holed into those roles over their careers, leaving behind a pool of people for design that are basically the people who didn't fit anywhere else, whether or not they are actually good at it.

    It's hard to make that sort of general argument about group dynamics without each individual designer feeling personally slapped across the face.

     

     

    There is a saying in my and other professions: "Those that do...do...those that cannot do....teach"

     

    I think the same thing applies here. Those that program or do art...do...those that cannot do (as well)....game design.

     

     

    Or "those who cannot even design badmouth others and hope to get people to pay before even building a game".

  • AeolynAeolyn Langley, BCPosts: 208Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

     

    Or "those who cannot even design badmouth others and hope to get people to pay before even building a game".

    Yea, like none of the other games on the market, from Mario to WoW didn't have financial backing from somewhere....

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Originally posted by johnisme

    Did you read on why Tabula Rasa failed and that Richard Garriot sued  NCsoft for 28 million and won over his departure from Tabula Rasa?

    I wouldn't want a publisher after that and do a kick starter instead.

    If i won 28 million in a lawsuit i wouldnt be going to kickstarter to fund a game....

    $28 million is nothing when it comes to making an MMO, the decent ones start somewhere around $100 million to develop.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

  • aRtFuLThinGaRtFuLThinG MelbournePosts: 1,133Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Originally posted by johnisme

    Did you read on why Tabula Rasa failed and that Richard Garriot sued  NCsoft for 28 million and won over his departure from Tabula Rasa?

    I wouldn't want a publisher after that and do a kick starter instead.

    If i won 28 million in a lawsuit i wouldnt be going to kickstarter to fund a game....

    $28 million is nothing when it comes to making an MMO, the decent ones start somewhere around $100 million to develop.

     Yeah I don't know why is everyone giving Tabula Rasa shit.

     

    It is NOT a terrible game. The problem was not gameplay. It was actually more advertising and the fact that the publisher no longer wants to maintain it.

     

    A lot of games dies this way. Even some decent ones (like Earth & Beyond)

  • DarkcrystalDarkcrystal st clair shores, MIPosts: 809Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BahamutKaiser
    Regardless of who he is... I kinda agree. I just choose not to ridicule without cause.

    I will however make allowances for the difficulty of funding modern games, investor tampering, corporate money mongering and political problems as other serious obstacles to the improvement of games, its hard to say if its the designers fault, or just circumstances...

    Being in the field,  you are close, but designers fault most of the time NO, I'm a gamer and become a Game Designer because I disliked what I saw, but after working  in the industry, you  have all these brick walls in your way and big ones most not your fault, One Gamers need to stop buying games that dislike, this would stop one brick wall for designers, that way Investors wouldn't be so scared to try something new, which most investor see a new idea and say NOPE that won't work its never been done and run for it...   This is a major issue  in the industry , so its partly our fault as the Gamer.... They  prolly don't even know it, but it is..

     

    Investors will give money for one reason to make money if they see games like WOW, making money or a WOW clone and if you have idea like it and the work to show  what you can do, they will go for it, ideas like Xsyon, DARKfall, Mortal online, are different type of game and not money makers , they could be, but lack experince and backing so that's why they never do as well as they could...   Indies can do a great job because Software is being more affordable for indies which I think it's great and will open more doors, but sadly alot of people refuse to make MMORPG's as much, because you can make something better small scale and with little money, so why make an MMO???/?   I love them more than the next guy they call me MR MMO, at school and work, because I played so many, plus I have worked on some, but would I work on them again, yes and No, people complain to much and always blame the DEVS, they have little to no say....  I wish for once all Gamers would get an education in Game Production so they could see what I mean, I did and I was the same as everyone else before I did so .....

  • DarkcrystalDarkcrystal st clair shores, MIPosts: 809Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dampyre
    Originally posted by strangiato2112

     

     The reason he is going to kickstarter is because innovation in the MMO market is dead projects tommorow's themepark games are gonna be influenced by indie projects that are succesful.

    Because GW2 (no trinity, not heavily gearbased), TSW (modern setting, puzzle/mystery solving gameplay, skill wheel), and TERA (action oriented combat) are all standard games?  people that think everything is still WoW clones are blind to whats going on around them.  okay, TERA maybe be 'poor quality WoW with action combat", but the other two games are far, far from WoW clonish.  And of course games like PS2, Defiance and EoN (if it releases0 that are crossgenre games.

     

    There is plenty of innovation out there.

     

     

    The real question is why is a millionaire who can spend 30 million to go to space asking for crowd funding?

    yep GW2 is innovative and its why i play it, as far as the TSW goes pretty standard themepark, ya its a different setting that has not been done before but to me that is minor and has very little to do with actuall gameplay, how many games out there have we seen that are just WoW with a couple of tweaks...the majority of games in the industry you can't define a industry by a couple of titles. If you look at the console market there is way more innovation then the MMO industry , mostly because the games cost less , the creative people are not the problem its the financial side that has made so many clones out there.

      hence why kickstarter is becoming so popular, becauase there are tons of gamers like myself who are sick of the same old themepark games with one or two minor tweaks. Yes we are starting to see 'some' inovation in the MMO industry but its very little and only because the last couple of big budget wow copies fell flat on their face,  but for years it was the only thing being made and its still the majority.  Besides when a game starts with a subscription model and quickly moves to F2P its because the game flopped.

    So you think because a game does from Sub to F2P it flops??? Please for the love of god talk to people in the industry , you have no idea what your talking about,

     

     

    PS: This is a hint, look how fast they turn it into F2P, you know why? Because they tool it for F2P because they know what the market is like before they make it Sub, some companys want to see if it will work, if it doesn't so what, Example LOTR, DDo.

     

    The market now see's teh issue with F2P, and now using B2P, with Micro's, you will see more of this , the market seems F2P flaws, I know about this since I study it  for a living... So please do a little research..

  • austriacusaustriacus limaPosts: 624Member
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Originally posted by johnisme

    Did you read on why Tabula Rasa failed and that Richard Garriot sued  NCsoft for 28 million and won over his departure from Tabula Rasa?

    I wouldn't want a publisher after that and do a kick starter instead.

    If i won 28 million in a lawsuit i wouldnt be going to kickstarter to fund a game....

    $28 million is nothing when it comes to making an MMO, the decent ones start somewhere around $100 million to develop.

    Last i heard mmos dont have offline mode, which this one is suposed to have, unless i missed some kind of memo.

  • The amazing things about threads about Garriot is in variably like 50% of people are under the misguided apprehension that his main contribution was to MMORPGs.

     

    No Garriot is one of the top 5 FOUNDERS of the CRPG as a genre this includes all MMORPGs and everygame you have played or seen with RPG attached to it that is not a pen and paper game.

     

    Without Ultima 4 there would be no Fable1-3.  Without Ultima Underworld 1&2 the action RPG genre would barely exist.  I don't even need to mention Ultima Online even though it was the first major MMORPG and still has some of the deepest game design in the MMORPG genre.  Every single MMORPG every made is so heavily influenced by the single player Ultima series that it pointless to even bother.

     

    You think games like Everuquest had the depth they did because of Brad McQuaid?  I mean yeah he did legwork on it, but  many of those ideas got fleshed out in Ultima 4 and adopted by later CRPGs.  Even games like Nethack were very much influenced by the sheer depth of Ultima 4 and the cascading consequences of actions.

     

    Criticisze him all you like for not being a great business man (although don't bothering citing Tabula Rasa, that was complete clusterfuck absolutely no one could have made that work out well).  But seriously people need to realize UO was the tip of the iceberg.

  • aRtFuLThinGaRtFuLThinG MelbournePosts: 1,133Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by gestalt11

    The amazing things about threads about Garriot is in variably like 50% of people are under the misguided apprehension that his main contribution was to MMORPGs.

     

    No Garriot is one of the top 5 FOUNDERS of the CRPG as a genre this includes all MMORPGs and everygame you have played or seen with RPG attached to it that is not a pen and paper game.

     

    Without Ultima 4 there would be no Fable1-3.  Without Ultima Underworld 1&2 the action RPG genre would barely exist.  I don't even need to mention Ultima Online even though it was the first major MMORPG and still has some of the deepest game design in the MMORPG genre.  Every single MMORPG every made is so heavily influenced by the single player Ultima series that it pointless to even bother.

     

    You think games like Everuquest had the depth they did because of Brad McQuaid?  I mean yeah he did legwork on it, but  many of those ideas got fleshed out in Ultima 4 and adopted by later CRPGs.  Even games like Nethack were very much influenced by the sheer depth of Ultima 4 and the cascading consequences of actions.

     

    Criticisze him all you like for not being a great business man (although don't bothering citing Tabula Rasa, that was complete clusterfuck absolutely no one could have made that work out well).  But seriously people need to realize UO was the tip of the iceberg.

     QFT.

    Ultima 4 was the first computer rpg that has actual dynamic dialog in terms if how you ask an NPC question, instead if just choosing response.

    Ultima 6 was the first computer rpg that allows you to manipulate and combine objects to make other objects in the game world.

    Ultima Underworld was the first dungeon hack action rpg that actually lets you move like an fps Wolfenstein style.

    Space Rogue was the first space sci-fi rpg that actually lets you walk around a space station AND control a space ship as well AND have quest for both.

    Knights of Legend was the first RPG that has realistic combat elements (in terms of caculating equipment weight vs combat effectiveness, fatigue, reading enemy moves, etc.)

    The list goes on and on.

    Origin pioneered crpg more than any other gaming company in the field.

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG

     QFT.

    Ultima 4 was the first computer rpg that has actual dynamic dialog in terms if how you ask an NPC question, instead if just choosing response.

    Ultima 6 was the first computer rpg that allows you to manipulate and combine objects to make other objects in the game world.

    Ultima Underworld was the first dungeon hack action rpg that actually lets you move like an fps Wolfenstein style.

    Space Rogue was the first space sci-fi rpg that actually lets you walk around a space station AND control a space ship as well AND have quest for both.

    Knights of Legend was the first RPG that has realistic combat elements (in terms of caculating equipment weight vs combat effectiveness, fatigue, reading enemy moves, etc.)

    The list goes on and on.

    Origin pioneered crpg more than any other gaming company in the field.

    Problem is, Garriott doesn't limit his statement to RPGs. He directs it at the industry as a whole. While I don't think many would argue the significance of Ultima to video games, Garriott is hardly the only major contributing factor towards gaming. To turn around and condemn everyone but Will Wright and the people who helped him design Ultima is extremely arrogant. Heck, most of the great games ever made did not come from those guys. They didn't make mario, or any of the early final fantasies, or zelda. He didn't make shadow of the collosus, or mega man. Heck Valve and Naughty Dog are two extremely impressive game studios, that have nothing to do with those guys. The author of the article throws him a life line by insinuating that he respects Bethesda, but it would've come across much better if he just came out and gave props where props are due.

    If his point was to say that he thinks design schools are spitting out too many mediocre designers, then he really should've phrased his statement as such. I don't think many would actually disagree with that notion. But he didn't.

  • ElikalElikal ValhallaPosts: 8,063Member

    I say that for years. Most of us say at least similar things. So ALL HAIL TO LORD BRITISH for saying how it is, I say!

    Some developers just need to put in a sack and beaten with a stick, and you'll hardly do injustice if you put any assortment of random game developers into it!

    My fav is DANIEL I KNOW IT ALL BETTER ERICKSON.

     

    Oh the hubris. Sometimes I wished the ground would open below them and swallow them whole, like in the Old Testament stories, just as an example to the next TEN GENERATIONS of Game Designers that THOU SHALT NOT SUCK AT GAME DESIGNING!

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • MagiknightMagiknight McKinleyville, CAPosts: 782Member
    The man speaks the truth. Not many people do.
  • ksternalksternal Hainesport, NJPosts: 81Member
    In my opinion, he is absolutely correct.  But its seems no one is making a great game these days and only making a game were they can make a quick buck then move on to their next project.
  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common
    Originally posted by austriacus

    Last i heard mmos dont have offline mode, which this one is suposed to have, unless i missed some kind of memo.

    Age of Conan supports offline leveling but admittadly thats not the same thing

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2010/04/27/age-of-conan-unveals-offline-leveling/

    Age of Wushu has an offline mechanic

    http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/loadNews/27030/Offline-Play-Revealed

     

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon
    I agree

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG

    Origin pioneered crpg more than any other gaming company in the field.

    I like those games too but that happened way back in the past.

    Kodak pioneered photography too. What happened to them lately? Roberta Williams pioneered graphics point & click adventure games. She didn't make a game for a long time.

    So what if origin pioneered CRPG. It does not even exist today. And LB is just a part, and not all of it.

  • AeolynAeolyn Langley, BCPosts: 208Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG

    Origin pioneered crpg more than any other gaming company in the field.

    I like those games too but that happened way back in the past.

    Kodak pioneered photography too. What happened to them lately? Roberta Williams pioneered graphics point & click adventure games. She didn't make a game for a long time.

    So what if origin pioneered CRPG. It does not even exist today. And LB is just a part, and not all of it.

    http://www.nytimes.com/1997/10/20/business/the-ultimate-obsession-what-will-people-pay-to-enter-his-world.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

    Worth a quick read, note the date. 

    As for it happening way in the past, so?  I'd rather trust someone who basically founded the type of gameplay I enjoy, not to mention my all-time favourite online world, than those who mostly just follow someone else's path/work and then proclaim the resulting product as the "new" saviours of the gaming world. 

     

    It really is pretty much just that marketing and research that some of you keep trying to say is telling us mmorpgs as we've known them are dead.  Of course if you want to sell something new you're going to want it to sound better than what came before... duh, but that doesn't mean it is.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Aeolyn

    As for it happening way in the past, so?  I'd rather trust someone who basically founded the type of gameplay I enjoy, not to mention my all-time favourite online world, than those who mostly just follow someone else's path/work and then proclaim the resulting product as the "new" saviours of the gaming world. 

     

    So .. a has been who has not done anything worthwhile for more than 10 years is trusted enough to get your money on a promise? And that "fav online world" are already out-of-date, and are old ideas by now.

    Feel free to support LB .. any celebrity always have some supporters. And if he did produce a game with your money, all the better. It may even be decent enough for me to buy. Better you risk your money on him than me.

  • AeolynAeolyn Langley, BCPosts: 208Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Aeolyn

    As for it happening way in the past, so?  I'd rather trust someone who basically founded the type of gameplay I enjoy, not to mention my all-time favourite online world, than those who mostly just follow someone else's path/work and then proclaim the resulting product as the "new" saviours of the gaming world. 

     

    So .. a has been who has not done anything worthwhile for more than 10 years is trusted enough to get your money on a promise? And that "fav online world" are already out-of-date, and are old ideas by now.

    Feel free to support LB .. any celebrity always have some supporters. And if he did produce a game with your money, all the better. It may even be decent enough for me to buy. Better you risk your money on him than me.

    Hmm a has been?  Who's being pompous now?  Aren't all pre-orders just a promise?  As for you actually paying for a game, that alone is worth me investing in one to see(runs to see if the KS is still accepting "donations"). :)

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Aeolyn
     

    Hmm a has been?  Who's being pompous now?  Aren't all pre-orders just a promise?  As for you actually paying for a game, that alone is worth me investing in one to see(runs to see if the KS is still accepting "donations"). :)

    has-been is defined by old sucess and no new success ... isn't that what he is. Tell me, what is his recent success. Anything?

    Pre-orders is not just a promise because a) you can cancel it, and b) you don't have to pay a dime. There is no financial risk to pre-order.

    No you are not paying for a game. You are paying for a possibility of a game. There is a huge difference. There is no guarantee. In fact, let me illustrate it. Pay me $10. I may be paying you back $11, or $9 or not at all. That is the deal you are making. .

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