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I propose that the only way to end Zerg warfare is to enable friendly fire.
Please discuss.
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Comments
But I think the more effective technique is to unrestrict area damage, it should have damage, cost, and frequency equivalent to one third of a single target attack. In this way, any attempt to crowd an AoE attacker will result in massive losses due to AoE efficiency.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.
Well.. giving ranged characters the boon of friendly fire raises the question of why not go all the way to enable strike-through dmg too. To make it work in combat that is fun and fluid, would require quite a lot of work, but may be possible.. Would require fast paced combat and a lot of ways to avoid. And small enough group sizes to prevent chaos at least slightly easier. Guess I'd like see some1 make it work, but there are some risks and ultimately it wouldn't do much at all about zerging.
Zerging is merely a type of behaviour that arises from a) overconfidence and b) repetition of said content. a) can be a result of b), but not necessarily. b) can be countered by e.g. randomizing content, making each run different or at least possibly different will give players a reason to pause and think a while. In my opinion at least, no matter the mechanics, you can zerg the content once you know it, know your party and know the mechanics.
There are 3 main tactics to counter zerg:
1. zerg em back
2. deny them the chance to zerg you via non-conventional warfare
3. attrition the zerg
All these 3 work and have many more variations upon them. To eliminate zerg would be impossible because you would need to eliminate the option to zerg, the best way to reduce its frequency is to properly balance the game such that zerging is a tactic as much as any other (no better or worse ergo with its own place).
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
your not a good game designer.
something like that would be FFA. FFA usually does more damage than good. it would be exploited and kill off the large population in the PvP mmo or turn the PvE MMO into a PvP which would ruin the community.
very bad game design. but oh well. some people learn the hard way.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
That would be a great start. The two main reasons there is no friendly fire:
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
That works in battlefields, and it's one of the main reasons battlefields exist. In an open world environment, it far more tricky to pull off without it seeming contrived or arbitrary (see:PotBS)
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
True. I suspect the key would be in various attrition and/or diminishing return mechanics (such as supplies, fuel, food etc.) which would put a "soft cap" on large player concentrations. Then again, nothing says hard caps can't be immersive aswell. A stargate can only jump such an such many ships at a time for example. If the number is small enough and the frequency of jumps managed (stargate needs to cooldown after each jump), moving large fleets of spaceships becomes a huge inconvenience therefore discouraging zerging.
There's always a way: Conjuring up fiction to mask/explain a game mechanic is easy.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
One way to discourage zerging would be to give organized players am massive advantage over unorganized ones. In ancient times an army that was just a huge barbaric horde, and didn't even have a leader, would be certain to get slaughtered even if it outnumbered the enemy 1/10.
It would be nice to have mechanics for players to organize on an broader scale. I imagine fighters forming a shield wall while mages perform a magical ritual. A player that does not help and just fires away mindlessly would be almost useless, and would earn no reward therefore.
One would need to test what level of organization a random group of players is capable of, without the whole thing becoming frustrating. A meaningful leader-mechanic would be required. (Not the one from gw2 where everyone can get an champion icon who payes 100gp)
These are games ... you can't forget the fun/effort ratio. If the mechanics make your game less fun or too much of a hassle compared to alternatives, then players will leave for another game that lets them play how they want.
The underlying assumption we're making is that players don't like to zerg but do it because it's effective. If we make it less effective, then players will play differently. While it is apparent that the type of players that complain on message boards often abhor zerg tactics, in seven years of playing MMOs I have not necessarily seen an indication that the MMORPG player population at large feels the same way. I might even argue most players just want to feel like they are doing something and being rewarded for it (see GW2).
Friendly fire, harsh death costs or penalties to the individual or the team, providing defensive installations with powerful zerg-busting weaponry, even giving offensive or defensive penalties/bonuses based on location and friendly units in proximity, all of those could help discourage zerging, but while you ingratiate yourself with some portion of your potential players, you push a much larger group away. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing -- being able to find games that fit one's tastes should be one of the advantages of diversity -- but it is a consideration developers have to face.
In DAOC you could fight 12 versus 30-36 or so and win. Why? Long duration Mez CCs that took someone out of combat until they took damage. This type of tactic provides a huge benefit to organized groups.
Of course most players do not like being CCed that long and thus we have the action zerg combat of today rather than the tactical combat of days gone by.
Short resapwn timers and quick recovery times of health and mana being seconds rather then minutes also do more to promote zerg play.
In PVE, a lack of needed coordination and low death penalties mean a lot of zerging too.
Yes and no. You *can* do it, but you need to get the players to buy into it. To use PotBS as an example, there were quite a few skills that seemed to have plausible enough descriptions but the players simply didn't buy into it and rejected it as magic in their maritime game. It's doable, but tricky.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The "only" way? Seriously?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Friendly Fire alone doesn't beat the zerg out of game design, but it certainly hinders it. While I don't think it is an unacceptable mechanic if done in a miriad of situations, I feel proper escalation of AoE damage and tactical funneling mechanisms would prevent players from crowding and over committing large forces vs small ones.
If an AoE with a 5-10 foot blast radius does exactly 1/3rd of the DPS and 3 times the cost as single target DPS, attempts to engage in groups of more than 3 would result in taking higher DPS toward your troops overall, and quickly escalate into unmitagatable damage if 9 or more were hit with the same efficiency.
Character collision and personal space requirement would help too, but needs a lot of polish to work naturally so your not just jammed when your surrounded by allies, simular to unit collision in SC2 or other unit intensive games.
There are also a host of strategies which can be implemented in order to mitigate the effectiveness of crowding.
As for respawn and returning... That's just as simple as dont... whether it's fun for the zerg is not really relevant if it's not fun for the foe, a system of intelligent challenge has to be designed to entertain both parties.
Feel free to give me more specifics so I can solve them... but I woln't guarentee that I'll give away every solution I devise.
Oh, and one more thing just crossed my mind, AoE or party heals can be given a set total amount of heal, that way no matter how many units it is applied to, it divides a set amount among the units affected. This further constitues greater recovery vs fewer units and exponetially ineffective recovery vs AoE damage to a huge group of allies.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.
"a system of intelligent challenge has to be designed to entertain both parties"
I like that phrase.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Nope.
Even games with friendly fire have zerging. Just look at Planetside. The truth is really quite simple:
Zerging is not a biproduct of game mechancs. It's a biproduct of having a large number of people in the same environment. Even in PvE, players zerg. Heck, just look at any game with public events. Even regular questing areas get zerged, but people fight each other over mobs & quest items.
If zerging bothers you, the answer is easy.
A) Don't do it
and
Use your brain, and stop trying to attack zergs head on. It's amazing how many people still don't understand the concept of flanking, even though it's one of the oldest & most effective strategies ever known.
There's a reason things like 'ambushes' exist. They were developed as methods specifically to defeat a larger force of opponents. Video games are no different. Sure, some games make it easier to outplay zergs than others, but every game I have ever played that has 'zerging', has had zerg forces whiped out by players using superior tactics.
Heck, even in GW2, a game where people often get criticised for 'zerging', my guild is notorious for consistantly decimating much larger forces. Not only is it incredibly fun, but we are far from the only ones that do this.
I would like to see a list of your "There are also a host of strategies which can be implemented in order to mitigate the effectiveness of crowding."
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Picking up any book on basic war strategy will give you such a list, but to start:
- Flanking
- Bombing (AoE)
- Pincer attacks (hitting a group of enemies from multiple sides at once)
- Bottlenecking
- Stalling
- Back capping
- Attacking morale
- Disabling (CC)
- Guerilla tactics
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
They all work. I have yet to play a game with large scale combat where those don't. Don't make the mistake of assuming that any one of these tactics are THE solution to every problem. They all have situations where they work best, and situation where they are weak. It's also highly beneficial to use multiple tactics together. It's all about analyzing your current situation and coming up w/ the best strategy to reduce their numbers, or forcing them into situations where their numbers are less beneficial.
I'm not suggesting you can take out a zerg of 100 with 5 (at least not in every game), but you can certainly take out a zerg of 100 with a group of 20 or 30 when played right. I don't think I've ever seen a game that had zergs of 100 skilled players, it's usually a dozen or 2 skilled players leading a bunch of pugs / randoms / or less-skilled individuals. With communication, decisiveness, and smart play, you'd probably be amazed at what can happen.
Heck, even though GW2 has a number of mechanics that help out zergs, my guild consistantly stomps large zergs on a nightly basis, we pride ourselves on it. We aren't the only ones, there are quite a number of videos people have posted of them owning against a massive numbers advantage. I've also done this in WAR, DAoC, TSW (even though i dont think that game has good PvP), Planetside 1/2, LotRO, Lineage 2, Shadowbane, etc.
Probably the biggest thing that helps zergs out tbh, regardless of game mechanics, is people thinking it's hopeless and giving up. That's not even a complete list up there in the quotes, there are still more general tactics that work, and even more that are game specific. It's all about being clever and outsmarting your opponents. Oh, and getting yourself into a guild / outfit / etc. to start organizing with.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
It works well in historic games but not that well in high fantasy. One moronic mage would do so much damage the game would be unplayable.
I think you also would need tab targetting for it, hate to have weapon collisions for it since it would be close to impossible then to have more than 2 players attacking a single opponent.
For a MMO set in the musketeer era with muskets, pistols, grenades (ye olde black powder ones), cannons and rapiers it would work excellent.
Adding this to Wow, GW2 or similar game would be a disaster.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.