If you see enemy players in your pve zone that you can't attack, that destroys immerssion big time.
If you see enemy players in your pve zone, and you can both attack eachother (open faction pvp), that makes the whole GAME rvr which wouldn't work either. It's been shown time after time again, that for games that want BIG playerbases, the majority enjoying have the CHOICE when to PVP, not to have it on all the time. There's also a big portion that will only EVER pve, and never check out PVP.
Odd, I could swear that the largest game off all time allows open world pvp, maybe you heard of WoW it seeminly did okay!
UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem
I guess having a shared leveling experience with ONLY people from your faction? You build up that pride in working together, overcoming obstacles together, etc.....
That makes people from the other factions seem like strangers from a distant land. When you finally do see them, they are so outside the boundaries of what you are used to. You haven't seen those races as human players yet, and if you've seen them in the pve stuff you were probably only ever fighting against them. It really builds up factions/races by "us vs them" and recognizing certain races/factions as enemies right off the bat.
You all probably had different themes in the pve experiences in your homelands too, that stear you towards hating those other factions hehe. In story line missions for one faction, there's probably PVE stuff with invaders from other factions that you have to fight off, that perhaps have destroyed towns / taken prisoners / etc....
If you see enemy players in your pve zone that you can't attack, that destroys immerssion big time.
If you see enemy players in your pve zone, and you can both attack eachother (open faction pvp), that makes the whole GAME rvr which wouldn't work either. It's been shown time after time again, that for games that want BIG playerbases, the majority enjoying have the CHOICE when to PVP, not to have it on all the time. There's also a big portion that will only EVER pve, and never check out PVP.
Odd, I could swear that the largest game off all time allows open world pvp, maybe you heard of WoW it seeminly did okay!
Again, it's about choice, and they give the players that choice in wow. There's only open pvp in wow on PVP servers, not on normal servers, where it's restricted to those faction pvp zones they added in wrath & cata. (and bgs/arenas)
You can choose to play on a pvp server if you want that open world pvp play.
I was talking about choice vs making people play in an open pvp game. People want that choice.
I did see a good suggestion from someone on here about having multiple megaserver types, which I thougt could be an interesting concept. Normal ruleset / open world factional pvp servers / coop server / etc... It would still be megaservers, but with a couple different rulesets.
I don't think they'll do that, but it's an idea. I think they'd rather make one ruleset, and within that ruleset give people the choice of whether to pve, pvp, or both. I've read a lot lately about the pve options in the rvr area of TESO. My best is the gold/loot/resource rewards will make it worth the risk of death from other players.
Besides, I don't think anyone holds wow up as the pinnacle of best mmo out there. There's no arguing their large playerbase numbers, but that doesn't mean they're the best mmo (and I know "best" is subjective too.)
It just means they have a savvy business model to make it more and more casual friendly, and age range friendly, to get the biggest sub numbers possible. For long time / oldschool mmo'ers, a lot of their actions in that regard actually drive us away, but they don't care because they're making more money anyway. I've seen what wow's been doing since towards the end of wrath basically, as abandoning the people who helped get the game going originally, in favor of more subs and younger audience. Just look at the latest expac, LOL! My 8 to 14 year old nieces loved it! Meanwhile I went back to Eve online.
I guess having a shared leveling experience with ONLY people from your faction? You build up that pride in working together, overcoming obstacles together, etc.....
That makes people from the other factions seem like strangers from a distant land. When you finally do see them, they are so outside the boundaries of what you are used to. You haven't seen those races as human players yet, and if you've seen them in the pve stuff you were probably only ever fighting against them. It really builds up factions/races by "us vs them" and recognizing certain races/factions as enemies right off the bat.
You all probably had different themes in the pve experiences in your homelands too, that stear you towards hating those other factions hehe. In story line missions for one faction, there's probably PVE stuff with invaders from other factions that you have to fight off, that perhaps have destroyed towns / taken prisoners / etc....
this makes some sense, and as long as it isnt essentially solo leveling, it may become true as well.
although i also will agree with jfoytek, and say faction pride existed somewhat, at least in early WoW. 'for the horde' etc.we even thought the type of person that would roll a horde or alliance character was different (alliance were childish LOTR's fans that wanted to be legolas and aragorn, horde were more mature types that rooted for the bad guy in a movie - misguided as these notions were.) i remember being disgusted when a tank in our guild rolled a nightelf to play with some rl friends.
p.s. thanks for a civil conversation, a rarity on these boards.
Originally posted by LivnthedreamWhere is the almighty lore push for perma death that every TES game that has come before has had?
When the lore push to include the option to save your progress at any given time, like previous TES games.
Oh I see, mechanics that eliminate things you do not like due to impracticality are ok, but mechanics that enforce things you don't are not. I absolutely love how "lore friendly" gets used as just another term for "something I do not like". The absurdity of the fanatics will never cease.
Are you serious? TES games previously were Single Player RPGs. TES:O is an MMORPG. Previous TES titles allowed for a player to save (not to be confused with logging out), because they could die. I cannot think of one MMO that allows a player to save their game at any point in time and thus load a previously saved game. Do you?
i think the fact that you could save in TES single player games made its permadeath not really permadeath, so the argument is invalid.personally i think its a terrible idea for any themepark to feature permadeath.i can see it in a sandbox game that features items that are almost all exclusively craftable.but in a themepark style of game that is mostly gear driven, absolutely not.
Sorry but they stated the best gear would be crafted not looted.... So this is a game that feature the best gear exclusively from crafters one of the few things I am really keen on at this point!
actually, they said crafting yields "some" of the best items in the game.
you will still get some of the best items from PVE dungeons and quests, just like the single player ES games as well as every themepark out there
also, in your opinion, is it wise to feature an endgame raiding system while having permadeath?
i mean, unless you are not raiding for gear, there is no way that would work.
endgame raiding is an exclusive themepark feature, that is why permadeath and themepark games just don't mix.
but again, how did you put up the the ES series being such a hardcore sandbox fan and themepark hater? just curious, because ES's has always featured themepark type qualities as well as sandbox ones.
Originally posted by TuktzIf you see enemy players in your pve zone that you can't attack, that destroys immerssion big time.If you see enemy players in your pve zone, and you can both attack eachother (open faction pvp), that makes the whole GAME rvr which wouldn't work either. It's been shown time after time again, that for games that want BIG playerbases, the majority enjoying have the CHOICE when to PVP, not to have it on all the time. There's also a big portion that will only EVER pve, and never check out PVP.
Odd, I could swear that the largest game off all time allows open world pvp, maybe you heard of WoW it seeminly did okay!
even wow's pvp wasn't entirely open. i do somewhat agree with you in regard to pvp, i wish there was an option for open pvp everywhere.
but i do believe that cyrodiil pvp will be decent just because there are pve aspects as well.
there will be pve quests, caves, and dungeons to explore, which will create danger and force you to watch your back, as well as fight for pve content control.
which IMO is what makes open pvp the best type of pvp out there.
Originally posted by TuktzIf you see enemy players in your pve zone that you can't attack, that destroys immerssion big time.If you see enemy players in your pve zone, and you can both attack eachother (open faction pvp), that makes the whole GAME rvr which wouldn't work either. It's been shown time after time again, that for games that want BIG playerbases, the majority enjoying have the CHOICE when to PVP, not to have it on all the time. There's also a big portion that will only EVER pve, and never check out PVP.
Odd, I could swear that the largest game off all time allows open world pvp, maybe you heard of WoW it seeminly did okay!
even wow's pvp wasn't entirely open. i do somewhat agree with you in regard to pvp, i wish there was an option for open pvp everywhere.
but i do believe that cyrodiil pvp will be decent just because there are pve aspects as well.
there will be pve quests, caves, and dungeons to explore, which will create danger and force you to watch your back, as well as fight for pve content control.
which IMO is what makes open pvp the best type of pvp out there.
I like this change quite a bit. I may check out this game at release should the PvE prove interesting.
I don't see how throwing a few PvE mobs in WvW in GW2 or in one zone in this game is the same as open world PvP. Who goes into WvW to kill PvE mobs? I like open PvP or PvP that actually has consequences...this game doesn't have it.
Are you sure about this? I believe it was Garrett who responded to someone's comment of his article and said that you could check a box for PvP and would be placed in a FFA PvP shard. That wouldn't make sense if you couldn't interact with other factions.
Guys, the 50+ and 50++ as theyre calling it when you get to go to the other areas when you cap out yours isnt the only end-game. Paul Sage I beleive it was said that is just an alternative for if you prefer to play the game by yourself and dont want to group with people. They have said there will be raids and dungeons and it sounds like there will be World Bosses ala Everquest etc. And I am 99.9% sure I heard Paul mention a LFG system, which is obviously a staple of MMORPGs. And on the crafting thing -- Pretty sure they said there are crafting stuff to get in the other factions zones too, because they scale the quest rewards/drops to benefit you so that it isnt just to see the land. You will recognize some of the materials but I am fairly confident Paul said something like there will be other materials for you to find in the 50+ faction zones too.
I realy dont understand why they wont let people have open world PvP, WoW has been doing just fine with it. Illidan the pvp server is like the most populated server.
"That depends on you. With the mega-server, you'll set your playstyle preferences, and in each zone you travel too be matched up with like-minder players. Want open pvp? Select it as a preference and you're there. Not so much? No worries, you can carebear it up." Bill Murphy on FFA PvP
hMJem: In the most recent preview on IGN. "There are no raids, after all - "That's not Elder Ecrolls" says game director..."
There seems to be a lot of contradicting statements from people who work there. How does Open PVP work if you cant see the other faction ever except in AvA and 50+ dungeons? Hostile doesnt usually work on your own race/faction.
Paul Sage saying there will be raids and they want raids to drop good gear, then you saying another person said something else.
No open world PvP except for their own pre-determined AvA zone? Lame. I know that's how DAoC worked but I definitely love the excitement of having to watch my back while I level.
Originally posted by tkreep I realy dont understand why they wont let people have open world PvP, WoW has been doing just fine with it. Illidan the pvp server is like the most populated server.
I have made this point before, but, there are far and away more people that do not want open world pvp than do. The pvp is in Cyrodiil. Open world pvp is another game entirely; and, while I am not an open world pvp advocate, I understand that it is a thriving portion of this genre of gaming. You're just not going to find it in this game.
Hedonismbot: Your latest performance was as delectable as dipping my bottom over and over into a bath of the silkiest oils and creams.
Awful system..... if thats how we can go to other factions lands, just dont allow it at all, Zenimax. Its already disappointing that we cant cross the faction line at our own risk. This is a slap in the face. If you arent doing it correctly just dont do it, this just going to make it worse.
Look what happens when some of them want faction lock and some others dont.
Developers try to please everyone and in the end noone is pleased.
With that kind of system they are using i would prefere the faction lock.
You either let the players venture in the world freely without stupid shards and mirror worlds or you dont let them move freely at all.
They will destroy immersion with this decision but hey, mmos are already dead and i dont think zenimax is going to ressurect anything.They just following the same formula everyone is making to please every tedybear outthere.
The vision of a successful artist is something that a lot of people admire while some of them dont and he hasn't been involved into a proccess of how to please everyone.
When you see an artist trying to please everyone then he is not an original artist but a money graber artist.
Its terrible. I want to pick my race and pick my faction. At least give me a questline to change factions (like eq2). I want to be able to play with my friends who might be another faction from 1 to cap not just at 50.
I don't think this zone is going to feel like the 'real' zone when I am playing. How can it? A mostly people free zone to run around in doing the bits of 50 lvl content they tossed in there.
That was never the concept of Dark Age of Camelot because the developers knew that it would water down the concept of variation and difference. So you don't get to take your elf, do a quest, and become part of a faction that would kill you on site. While merc type groups could exist - the reality is that in the old world, there was very very little trust between many cultures. You would get skewered, for example, for having so much as a French accent if you were wandering England during the 100 years war (unless you were a free Mason and could be hired for architectural pursuits across warring borders, hence, FREE mason).
It's hard for a lot of post WoW era folks to get the concept of realm vs realm vs realm. They've been fed so many watered down copies of factional lore, seen endless examples of broken lore and so forth (seeing a Necromancer running through Cimmeria with all pets out in AoC is sadly broken)...that they assume that when they come to CU that they should be able to just do whatever and not worry about the impact on the quality of the game.
I'm all for you having fun, trust me. But there are other games. Please try to appreciate the uniqueness of this IP title, and really dig in and get the first taste of true realm loyalty. You might come to love it And btw, if your friends roll another faction, just join them. Then, pick a different server to play a different faction on.
I was Hibernian on the Guinevere server, Midgard on the Percival server, and Albion on the Nimue server. There you have it.
So they're giving us free reign over skills/weapons/armors, no class system, etc so we can join instanced enemy teritories where we kill only mobs. And all that freedom of experimenting is wasted on what? How I can kill a boss in a more flashier way? Sigh. My excitement just hit rock bottom. We'll have to wait and see what happens next, I guess.
No one is going to listen to me, but this post is all speculation and grossly inaccurate. Can we please stop jumping to conclusions. The misconceptions about this game are unbelievable. I've never seen such craziness.
Originally posted by 666murmur666 So they're giving us free reign over skills/weapons/armors, no class system, etc so we can join instanced enemy teritories where we kill only mobs. And all that freedom of experimenting is wasted on what? How I can kill a boss in a more flashier way? Sigh. My excitement just hit rock bottom. We'll have to wait and see what happens next, I guess.
There are still unique skill trees only for your class and race, dont act like everyone gets exactly the same. They have said mulitple times there ARE trees SPECIFIC to your race and class that no other can access.
PB: You arent exactly helping.. How does Open PvP work if you can never see the other faction unless in Cyrodill? And I still have no idea if it confirmed or rumor that you can party up with other factions for dungeons. Which seems odd.. Does that mean there is a LFG system? How are you supposed to group up if you arent allowed to see them?
I'm simply posting quotes from legitimate sources. This guy is speculating based on incomplete information. None of the previews I read said we cannot see players from other factions, they never said we could either. He's just making assumptions and we're taking it all as fact.
Originally posted by 666murmur666 So they're giving us free reign over skills/weapons/armors, no class system, etc so we can join instanced enemy teritories where we kill only mobs. And all that freedom of experimenting is wasted on what? How I can kill a boss in a more flashier way? Sigh. My excitement just hit rock bottom. We'll have to wait and see what happens next, I guess.
There are still unique skill trees only for your class and race, dont act like everyone gets exactly the same. They have said mulitple times there ARE trees SPECIFIC to your race and class that no other can access.
PB: You arent exactly helping.. How does Open PvP work if you can never see the other faction unless in Cyrodill? And I still have no idea if it confirmed or rumor that you can party up with other factions for dungeons. Which seems odd.. Does that mean there is a LFG system? How are you supposed to group up if you arent allowed to see them?
I never said there weren't. I only said that I find no point in giving us freedom to experiment with builds when most of the time the greatest challenge will be fighting mobs. I can understand not wanting to be ganked/corpse camped/ w/e, but for Pete's sake, let us choose. If we want open pvp, make an instance with open pvp, if we want pve, make the rest of them pve. They're wasting work on the combat system so slashing a mob could look prettier. It's like having an action mmo without stuff to test the action on.
Comments
Odd, I could swear that the largest game off all time allows open world pvp, maybe you heard of WoW it seeminly did okay!
UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem
I guess having a shared leveling experience with ONLY people from your faction? You build up that pride in working together, overcoming obstacles together, etc.....
That makes people from the other factions seem like strangers from a distant land. When you finally do see them, they are so outside the boundaries of what you are used to. You haven't seen those races as human players yet, and if you've seen them in the pve stuff you were probably only ever fighting against them. It really builds up factions/races by "us vs them" and recognizing certain races/factions as enemies right off the bat.
You all probably had different themes in the pve experiences in your homelands too, that stear you towards hating those other factions hehe. In story line missions for one faction, there's probably PVE stuff with invaders from other factions that you have to fight off, that perhaps have destroyed towns / taken prisoners / etc....
MMO history - EVE GW2 SWTOR RIFT WAR COH/V EQ2 WOW DAOC
Tuktz - http://www.heretic.shivtr.com/
Again, it's about choice, and they give the players that choice in wow. There's only open pvp in wow on PVP servers, not on normal servers, where it's restricted to those faction pvp zones they added in wrath & cata. (and bgs/arenas)
You can choose to play on a pvp server if you want that open world pvp play.
I was talking about choice vs making people play in an open pvp game. People want that choice.
I did see a good suggestion from someone on here about having multiple megaserver types, which I thougt could be an interesting concept. Normal ruleset / open world factional pvp servers / coop server / etc... It would still be megaservers, but with a couple different rulesets.
I don't think they'll do that, but it's an idea. I think they'd rather make one ruleset, and within that ruleset give people the choice of whether to pve, pvp, or both. I've read a lot lately about the pve options in the rvr area of TESO. My best is the gold/loot/resource rewards will make it worth the risk of death from other players.
Besides, I don't think anyone holds wow up as the pinnacle of best mmo out there. There's no arguing their large playerbase numbers, but that doesn't mean they're the best mmo (and I know "best" is subjective too.)
It just means they have a savvy business model to make it more and more casual friendly, and age range friendly, to get the biggest sub numbers possible. For long time / oldschool mmo'ers, a lot of their actions in that regard actually drive us away, but they don't care because they're making more money anyway. I've seen what wow's been doing since towards the end of wrath basically, as abandoning the people who helped get the game going originally, in favor of more subs and younger audience. Just look at the latest expac, LOL! My 8 to 14 year old nieces loved it! Meanwhile I went back to Eve online.
MMO history - EVE GW2 SWTOR RIFT WAR COH/V EQ2 WOW DAOC
Tuktz - http://www.heretic.shivtr.com/
this makes some sense, and as long as it isnt essentially solo leveling, it may become true as well.
although i also will agree with jfoytek, and say faction pride existed somewhat, at least in early WoW. 'for the horde' etc.we even thought the type of person that would roll a horde or alliance character was different (alliance were childish LOTR's fans that wanted to be legolas and aragorn, horde were more mature types that rooted for the bad guy in a movie - misguided as these notions were.) i remember being disgusted when a tank in our guild rolled a nightelf to play with some rl friends.
p.s. thanks for a civil conversation, a rarity on these boards.
actually, they said crafting yields "some" of the best items in the game.
you will still get some of the best items from PVE dungeons and quests, just like the single player ES games as well as every themepark out there
also, in your opinion, is it wise to feature an endgame raiding system while having permadeath?
i mean, unless you are not raiding for gear, there is no way that would work.
endgame raiding is an exclusive themepark feature, that is why permadeath and themepark games just don't mix.
but again, how did you put up the the ES series being such a hardcore sandbox fan and themepark hater? just curious, because ES's has always featured themepark type qualities as well as sandbox ones.
TESO is shaping up to be a sandpark game lol
even wow's pvp wasn't entirely open. i do somewhat agree with you in regard to pvp, i wish there was an option for open pvp everywhere.
but i do believe that cyrodiil pvp will be decent just because there are pve aspects as well.
there will be pve quests, caves, and dungeons to explore, which will create danger and force you to watch your back, as well as fight for pve content control.
which IMO is what makes open pvp the best type of pvp out there.
I like this change quite a bit. I may check out this game at release should the PvE prove interesting.
I don't see how throwing a few PvE mobs in WvW in GW2 or in one zone in this game is the same as open world PvP. Who goes into WvW to kill PvE mobs? I like open PvP or PvP that actually has consequences...this game doesn't have it.
Paul Sage in a video when being interviewed: "We want raids to drop good gear, because, well that is the point of raiding right?"
The game will have raids. By design. Games dont survive off 5 man tank and spank dungeons and they know this.
hMJem: In the most recent preview on IGN. "There are no raids, after all - "That's not Elder Ecrolls" says game director..."
There seems to be a lot of contradicting statements from people who work there. How does Open PVP work if you cant see the other faction ever except in AvA and 50+ dungeons? Hostile doesnt usually work on your own race/faction.
Paul Sage saying there will be raids and they want raids to drop good gear, then you saying another person said something else.
No open world PvP except for their own pre-determined AvA zone? Lame. I know that's how DAoC worked but I definitely love the excitement of having to watch my back while I level.
I have made this point before, but, there are far and away more people that do not want open world pvp than do. The pvp is in Cyrodiil. Open world pvp is another game entirely; and, while I am not an open world pvp advocate, I understand that it is a thriving portion of this genre of gaming. You're just not going to find it in this game.
Hedonismbot: Your latest performance was as delectable as dipping my bottom over and over into a bath of the silkiest oils and creams.
Look what happens when some of them want faction lock and some others dont.
Developers try to please everyone and in the end noone is pleased.
With that kind of system they are using i would prefere the faction lock.
You either let the players venture in the world freely without stupid shards and mirror worlds or you dont let them move freely at all.
They will destroy immersion with this decision but hey, mmos are already dead and i dont think zenimax is going to ressurect anything.They just following the same formula everyone is making to please every tedybear outthere.
The vision of a successful artist is something that a lot of people admire while some of them dont and he hasn't been involved into a proccess of how to please everyone.
When you see an artist trying to please everyone then he is not an original artist but a money graber artist.
That was never the concept of Dark Age of Camelot because the developers knew that it would water down the concept of variation and difference. So you don't get to take your elf, do a quest, and become part of a faction that would kill you on site. While merc type groups could exist - the reality is that in the old world, there was very very little trust between many cultures. You would get skewered, for example, for having so much as a French accent if you were wandering England during the 100 years war (unless you were a free Mason and could be hired for architectural pursuits across warring borders, hence, FREE mason).
It's hard for a lot of post WoW era folks to get the concept of realm vs realm vs realm. They've been fed so many watered down copies of factional lore, seen endless examples of broken lore and so forth (seeing a Necromancer running through Cimmeria with all pets out in AoC is sadly broken)...that they assume that when they come to CU that they should be able to just do whatever and not worry about the impact on the quality of the game.
I'm all for you having fun, trust me. But there are other games. Please try to appreciate the uniqueness of this IP title, and really dig in and get the first taste of true realm loyalty. You might come to love it
And btw, if your friends roll another faction, just join them. Then, pick a different server to play a different faction on.
I was Hibernian on the Guinevere server, Midgard on the Percival server, and Albion on the Nimue server. There you have it.
There are still unique skill trees only for your class and race, dont act like everyone gets exactly the same. They have said mulitple times there ARE trees SPECIFIC to your race and class that no other can access.
PB: You arent exactly helping.. How does Open PvP work if you can never see the other faction unless in Cyrodill? And I still have no idea if it confirmed or rumor that you can party up with other factions for dungeons. Which seems odd.. Does that mean there is a LFG system? How are you supposed to group up if you arent allowed to see them?
I never said there weren't. I only said that I find no point in giving us freedom to experiment with builds when most of the time the greatest challenge will be fighting mobs. I can understand not wanting to be ganked/corpse camped/ w/e, but for Pete's sake, let us choose. If we want open pvp, make an instance with open pvp, if we want pve, make the rest of them pve. They're wasting work on the combat system so slashing a mob could look prettier. It's like having an action mmo without stuff to test the action on.