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Another great title ruined to the themepark.

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  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    I dont get the OP at all. TES was never a sandbox game. You cant build and change the world so TES is not sandbox. ESO followed TES themepark guided experience where the lore and world does not change at all by you playing it, other then killing the bad guy. If you made the game sandbox most fans would have shown up and said, I dont know this game. Name me anything from TES that fixs with a sandbox model?


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • gessekai332gessekai332 New York City, NYPosts: 877Member Common
    themepark game = themepark lifespan. enjoy your game for the initial 2 months before it crashes like all the other themepark games out there.

    Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by jfoytek
    Well news flash, WoW became a great game because of content and its SANDBOX, the ability to go anywhere and kill anyone that lived on the server no matter if that ment a suicidal charge into ogrimar. 

     

    Your not thinking straight. WoW was never a sandbox.

    This!!!


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    I dont think the majority of the people in this thread know what a sandbox game is.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • dontadowdontadow Detroit, MIPosts: 1,044Member

    I love the insulting word "carebear" put to people who just want to play a game. Also the idea that a "real gamer" wants to be harrassed by 13 year olds why they delve into a game.

    The main reason I am glad that pvp is segmeented out is because it breaks the immersion factor of the game. Now, if you were smart, AI oriented PVP where it made since in the story, id be all for it, but in the came of most pvp, its just people randomly attacking people which doesnt exist in any other type of game.  

    I'd be all for a type of game play if there was a strong AI monitored system that only allowed PVP at particular times, settings and scenes.  IN other words, very similar to a battlegrounds.  This makes logical sense.  The idea that the world is about to end and I need to kill this dragon, but player KILLALL PLAYERS is following me and shooting me is just silly. 

    Now, what i'd like to see if a very themparked land where players get to choose which side they want to fight for in each area and thats who you fight for in that area. But, you can not just openly kill people. Instaed you only see your opposition in particular settings or parts in the adventure. 

  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser ParisPosts: 1,873Member
    Originally posted by Dihoru
     

    EVE Online cost around 6-7 $ mil (5-6 mil euros) to develop.

    These being the vanilla versions of both games.

    For comparison's sake SWTOR cost around a minimum of 100 mil $ to develop. Now I am no expert in economy but I highly doubt that the US $ in 2003 is 2.5x that of the US$ in 2011 ergo money in itself does not make a game great, Hell I contend that the original version of WoW looked overall better than SWTOR from a purely gamer perspective (SWTOR is more advanced graphically yes but which of those two games would you say appeals more to a gamer overall?).

     

    A sandbox game does not require this gen MMO graphics to be competitive, what it does need is solid gameplay, a decent universe/background lore, a freedom of choices and a consequence for every choice you make (be it PVP, PVE, etc, etc) so that even if you choose to kill that guy in the corner because he looked at you funny you may then either get killed by the local law enforcers or by  vengeful friends of said player which are only the direct ways to exact retribution (I remember somewhere on the forums someone saying griefers can dodge consequences with alts, all you need to do in that case is know that guy's alts and make his life Hell either directly, killing, looting, etc or indirectly, financially griefing his support alts by say denying him resources or space or access to crafting areas, etc).

    I am sorry but i am not sure what you are saying here by comparing eve to WOW's budget? WOW already had a very strong fan following because of strategy titles. It was a very safe investment compared to dumping your milions into an unknown IP which is a sandbox.

    A lot however will disagree with your on graphic department. But let us say even if they agree i doubt the gameplay will be on par in quality with what players expect now days. Like i said unless it is a AAA sandbox title it is not good enough for majority here. I am sure almsot everyone is sick of low quality shoddy independent titles by now?

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
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    image

  • MukeMuke BredaPosts: 2,171Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by jfoytek
     Knowing that another great title, has choosen the Carebear way,
    WoW became a great game because of content and its SANDBOX 

    1: Surprise: all the other games were singleplayer therefore carebear/PVE games.
    2: with that WOW statement you have made yourself totally unbelievable.

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • BethelsBoyBethelsBoy South Bend, INPosts: 216Member Uncommon

    There has to be some sort of regulation when it comes to MMOs

    You can't make an MMO exactly like the single-player game and make everybody happy

     

    image

  • SasamiSasami HelsinkiPosts: 326Member
    Originally posted by gessekai332
    themepark game = themepark lifespan. enjoy your game for the initial 2 months before it crashes like all the other themepark games out there.

    You mean like WoW?

  • gessekai332gessekai332 New York City, NYPosts: 877Member Common
    Originally posted by GreenHell
    Originally posted by jfoytek
    Originally posted by GreenHell

    Nothing is a guarantee. If the game wasnt perfect how many people would stick around? How many complaints would there be on these forums about the game. Hell, people dont even need to play a game before they bash it. The problem is you are not thinking about this from any perspective other than your desire to play the game you want to play. Thats cool. We are all gamers thats what we do. Thats not how an investor will look at it though. Its about numbers and a sandbox game can not prove through numbers alone it could turn a huge profit.

    Runescape

    Ultima Online

    Eve Online

    Star Wars Galaxies

     

    Now name 4 Theamparks that could compare too these old Sandbox's in profit and subscriptions?  Without using WoW....

    I will help you out

    1) Everquest

    You just really don't get it do you? I am not trying to be insulting but you just can't see past what you want. That makes this discussion difficult. But ok lets roll with what you posted.

    Out of all of those games which ones were made in the past 8 years?

    EVE 2003

    UO 1997

    Runescape 2001

    SWG 2003

    Everquest 1999

    Why is it so hard for people to understand that the industry has changed and evolved with the demands of the times? WoW has redefined what an MMORPG is. For better or worse (thats all personal opinion) things will never go back to the way they were. How many of todays gamers would pay for that kind of experience? I think EVE answers that question.

    People always point to EQ as why a sandbox game could and should be made. The same old "it's been around for so long, it has so many expansions" I don't argue that. It's staying power is pretty amazing. That being said though WoW has been around for 8 years and unlike EQ it has dominated this genre of gaming for it's entire life. If we give credit to EQ how can you not give more credit to what WoW has accomplished. Times have changed. I am not saying there isnt as many players for that type of game as there used to be. There may be. There are more players though that want a themepark game. Im pretty sure the difference in those numbers is quite substantial. So once again where would you put your money?

     

    the industry isnt "evolving." if anything its devlolving. all companies are doing are treating mmo's like single player games with online capacity, which is hardly a new concept. if you dont make a game like a real mmo, you dont get the longevity of a real mmo. end of story.

    Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by jfoytek

    A) Have theamparks been succesfull even with huge IP's backing them like Star Wars and Star Trek???

    Answer: NO

     Not sure what you have been smoking, but SWTOR (a themepark, and not a very good one at that) was far more commercially successful than SWG (a sandbox, and a fairly decent one) ever was, using the same IP.

    Sandboxes are niche. Everything about them is niche. It would be like comparing a noir film with an action blockbuster. Or a 5 star meal to McDonalds. You just compete with the numbers.

    It doesnt make it a bad thing, but sandboxes simply cannot compete with the mainstream for numbers. Which is why they wouldnt throw their money down the toilet by making this AAA IP into a sandbox.

     

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,991Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    I dont think the majority of the people in this thread know what a sandbox game is.

    Actually, many of know what a sandbox style game is, we just don't agree on what that really means. image

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
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    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
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  • gessekai332gessekai332 New York City, NYPosts: 877Member Common
    Originally posted by Sasami
    Originally posted by gessekai332
    themepark game = themepark lifespan. enjoy your game for the initial 2 months before it crashes like all the other themepark games out there.

    You mean like WoW?

    thats cool, 1 out of 1,325,623,398 themeparks out there actually had lasting power. personal protip: don't ever try gambling.

    Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)

  • dontadowdontadow Detroit, MIPosts: 1,044Member
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by jfoytek

    A) Have theamparks been succesfull even with huge IP's backing them like Star Wars and Star Trek???

    Answer: NO

     Not sure what you have been smoking, but SWTOR (a themepark, and not a very good one at that) was far more commercially successful than SWG (a sandbox, and a fairly decent one) ever was, using the same IP.

    Sandboxes are niche. Everything about them is niche. It would be like comparing a noir film with an action blockbuster. Or a 5 star meal to McDonalds. You just compete with the numbers.

    It doesnt make it a bad thing, but sandboxes simply cannot compete with the mainstream for numbers. Which is why they wouldnt throw their money down the toilet by making this AAA IP into a sandbox.

     

    I 've always thought that if both sides stopped fighting there would be a happy medium that would actually please both sides.

    Sandboxes give another objective other than kill/fight/level.  Dark Cloud 2 was one of my favorite games of all time, and very rarely did you care as much about leveling than you did about building up your city and taking pictures.  

    Building up lands and cities  could be a sandboxy goal of the game. 

  • OziiusOziius Baltimore, MDPosts: 1,388Member Uncommon
    I have to play a game before I can say that I don't like it. Of course... that's just me. 
  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by gessekai332
    Originally posted by Sasami
    Originally posted by gessekai332
    themepark game = themepark lifespan. enjoy your game for the initial 2 months before it crashes like all the other themepark games out there.

    You mean like WoW?

    thats cool, 1 out of 1,325,623,398 themeparks out there actually had lasting power. personal protip: don't ever try gambling.

     Everquest 1 and 2, LOTRO, Aion, Lineage, Lineage 2, Age of Conan, DAOC, Rift etc.

    All have had fairly long lifetimes. EQ is up to its 14th year. No staying power at all.....

  • jfoytekjfoytek tigard, ORPosts: 150Member
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by jfoytek

    A) Have theamparks been succesfull even with huge IP's backing them like Star Wars and Star Trek???

    Answer: NO

     Not sure what you have been smoking, but SWTOR (a themepark, and not a very good one at that) was far more commercially successful than SWG (a sandbox, and a fairly decent one) ever was, using the same IP.

     

    Well seeing as SWTOR costed 400M dollars to develop, and they have lost 700K subscriptions and have gone free to play oh and havent paid off there development costs yet i would say

    SWG has blown it out of the water!!!

    UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem

  • LanceCLanceC Boston, MAPosts: 55Member
    From what I've heard TES and ESO will be so different that besides a few TES gimmicks it will play nothing like any TES game.  Seems shameful to call it part of TES.
  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by jfoytek
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by jfoytek

    A) Have theamparks been succesfull even with huge IP's backing them like Star Wars and Star Trek???

    Answer: NO

     Not sure what you have been smoking, but SWTOR (a themepark, and not a very good one at that) was far more commercially successful than SWG (a sandbox, and a fairly decent one) ever was, using the same IP.

     

    Well seeing as SWTOR costed 400M dollars to develop, and they have lost 700K subscriptions and have gone free to play oh and havent paid off there development costs yet i would say

    SWG has blown it out of the water!!!

     Please, if you think it is unprofitable you are sorely mistaken. They would have made more in 6 months than SWG made in its entire lifetime.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    I dont think the majority of the people in this thread know what a sandbox game is.

    Actually, many of know what a sandbox style game is, we just don't agree on what that really means. image

    Sandbox is just that, a box you get to make it as a player or group of players into what you want the world to be. Same with your char, want to play a rake weilding, heavy plated warrior who has a wizards cap as a hat then you have a sandbox class system. If you have both you now have a real sandbox game. If content directs you in any way you are now playing a temepark game or a hybrid sandbox/themepark game. There has been very few real sandbox games. Now days at best, MMOs will add some sandbox elements. 


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by LanceC
    From what I've heard TES and ESO will be so different that besides a few TES gimmicks it will play nothing like any TES game.  Seems shameful to call it part of TES.

    Then you heard very wrong. Tell me what about ESO is not like TES?


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • jfoytekjfoytek tigard, ORPosts: 150Member
    Originally posted by baphamet

     


    Originally posted by GreenHell

    Originally posted by jfoytek

    Originally posted by GreenHell

    Originally posted by jfoytek

    *SNIP*  
    A) Have theamparks been succesfull even with huge IP's backing them like Star Wars and Star Trek??? Answer: NO
    I dont disagree with that but show me a sandbox that has. Show me a sandbox that has made even 1/4 of the profit as the biggest themepark. Your best sandbox can't break 300k. I would have a better chance on a themepark because I have proof it can be done. You do not.
    Show me another Theampark that has made 1/4 the profit of WoW?
    You see thats the point. I don't have to. I have at least 1 game in the genre that has made crazy amounts of money. You do not. I can show you examples of themepark MMOs that I'm pretty sure beat your best sandbox subscription numbers. Is there a sandbox with better numbers than EVE? So the number I have to beat is what? 250K? 300k? Do you really believe that is a hard number to beat? I'm pretty sure Rift beats that. In just sub numbers I'm pretty sure ToR beats that as well.

     

    The case for a sandbox MMO has been weak since WoW came out. Is WoW just some freak thing that will never happen again? I don't know but couldn't the same be said for EVE? Now think as an investor not as a gamer that wants his game made. Where would you invest your money?

     


     

    i am willing to bet that SWTOR has more subs than any sandbox ever has at one point lol

    i am not against sandbox games but it is very niche much like the mmo community prior to wow

    expecting a title like TES to cater to a niche audience is not very realistic.

    also, TES games were not sandbox's so i am not sure why people expect the MMO to be one?

    just because you can do any quest you want at any time and anywhere does not make it a sandbox.

    there are quests for god sakes and a main story line had fed to you just like any other "theme park"

     

     

    SWTOR at its peak has 1.7M subs its now below 1M over a 700K drop...  But yes thats still alot of subscriptions, minor problem the game costed over 400M to make meaning it hasnt turned a profit yet... and Runescapes 8.5M subscriptions at peak wont be touched by SWTOR anytime soon nor ever!

    Now as for the Definition of a Sandbox "A game world were anybody is free to go anywhere and do whatever he wants"  This is TES games.... you never had to follow the main story line you could go off and just randomly go into dungeons at anytime you wanted.

    Theampark - An area requiring a loading screen to enter, not open to everyone....

    So when did you ever go to a place that no one else was allowed to go to in Morrowind oh wait you were playing a single player game thus theampark has zero relavance to TES games until now....

    UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem

  • ReklawReklaw Am.Posts: 6,476Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jfoytek

    And for the record I am not a PVP first player, I am a crafter....

     

    There are 4 Types of players in MMO's PvPers, PvEers, Crafters, and Noobs!

    PvPers are the black sheep of the MMO world they get crapped on regularly, its falsely believed they are this overwhelming minority group that plays MMO's when infact there not!!!  No they are waiting, playing single player games, playing silly games, playing everygame that gets released hoping for the return of Ultima Online or Shadowbane!!!

     

    What they get is Darkfall and Mortal Online, small studio's who try hard but dont have the money to deliver!

     

    Crafters like myself and also greatly upset with the state of the MMO world as most MMO's put crafting as an after thought!  We tend to play PvP titles more then PvE titles because PvP titles have a better economy, they die they need gear the economy isnt out of kilter like the PvE safe games the land of Carebears where the carebears never die have the greatest gear ever forever because they never risk it!

     

    PvEers the mass's or so its thought, the kids generation Easy mode!  They get all the tops titles, good graphics etc....  They are the target audience  this group of players that play a few weeks and quit out of boredom, why again do companys cater to this huge ADD demographic when the more mature player base, the more loyal player base, the ones more likely to shell out the cash are NOT PvEers....

     

    And then the noobs are of little consequence they loged on once to see what an MMO is and never log back on again! 

     

     

    Hmmm if you really feel you are part of a mature group of players why did you make a topic like this? I asume a true mature player would voice his opinion when he or she actually has played the game. Due to having experiance as a mature player you already know it has no reall use to make topics like this......well unless you already played a large portion of the game.

     

  • GreenHellGreenHell ludlow, MAPosts: 1,322Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jfoytek
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by jfoytek

    A) Have theamparks been succesfull even with huge IP's backing them like Star Wars and Star Trek???

    Answer: NO

     Not sure what you have been smoking, but SWTOR (a themepark, and not a very good one at that) was far more commercially successful than SWG (a sandbox, and a fairly decent one) ever was, using the same IP.

     

    Well seeing as SWTOR costed 400M dollars to develop, and they have lost 700K subscriptions and have gone free to play oh and havent paid off there development costs yet i would say

    SWG has blown it out of the water!!!

    Funny, Tor has lost (according to you) more players than SWG ever had and it's still going. More than twice the amount. I'm sure the developments costs on SWG were far less but I would hardly call that a win on either side and don't kid yourself if Tor wasn't being developed SWG would have gone F2P just like all of SOE's games.

  • jfoytekjfoytek tigard, ORPosts: 150Member
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    I dont think the majority of the people in this thread know what a sandbox game is.

    Actually, many of know what a sandbox style game is, we just don't agree on what that really means. image

    Sandbox is just that, a box you get to make it as a player or group of players into what you want the world to be. Same with your char, want to play a rake weilding, heavy plated warrior who has a wizards cap as a hat then you have a sandbox class system. If you have both you now have a real sandbox game. If content directs you in any way you are now playing a temepark game or a hybrid sandbox/themepark game. There has been very few real sandbox games. Now days at best, MMOs will add some sandbox elements. 

    This is not the definition of a Sandbox or Theampark....

    Theampark is content only available to a select group via a loading screen like a dungeon in WoW...

    Sandbox is an open map in which anyone can go anywhere with no obstructions....

    UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem

This discussion has been closed.