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Another great title ruined to the themepark.

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  • jfoytekjfoytek tigard, ORPosts: 150Member
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by jfoytek
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by jfoytek

     

     

     CAREBEARS!!! 

    ok so this is pretty much the crux of your argument.

    Secondly you are talking about this in releation to WoW. I mean really? If you are going to use that stupid term at least talk about it in relation to a game where you actually lose something, where there was an actual risk.

    Full loot, losing a chunk of xp, dropping items, all that constitutes risk.

    What exactly do you lose in WoW? You lessen your argument by using WoW as an example of pvp risk/reward.

    Unless of coursee WoW allows for you to lose xp, drop items and have your corpse looted?

    in which case "cheerfully withdrawn".

    Where did I ever say that WoW was hardcore or a pvp game???  I am comparing ESO to being just another WoW a game I dont want!  But yes I have said that WoW will likely be better because you have freedom of movement to go anywhere you want in WoW at any level....  Its Zones are not instanced like ESO's will be!

    So yeah WoW will likely be a better game but that just means I would rather roll in Mud then Manure!

    And it is same for ESO. And there is no typical questing in ESO like WOW and is as instanced as WOW is. What do you exactly mean when you say ESO zones are instanced?

    It doesnt take a genius to figure out what the Mega Server is! 

    Lets see when you complete all the quests in your home region you will be able to go enjoy level 50 content in another regions home region and do all the quests etc there..... 

    Now think about it!!!  You were a nightelf in WoW and you start off in Darnassus when you hit 50 you can now go do all the content in Mulgore but why???  Why would you take on a bunch of lvl 1 mobs how is this level 50 content?  How can the content be level 50 for you and level 1 for them???  Because you are in an identical Instance of the zone that they are in, your content is your level there content is there level.... IE the Mega Server at work....

    Infact lets not stop there lets choose PvE only so now your in this copy of a zone that doesnt allow pvp and is scaled to your level....

    While someone else is in a similiar copy who Chose PvP etc etc

    And its all one Huge Mega Server..... Uh yeah what a scam...  Its more like 10,000 Instanced zones running at the same time with a couple people in them....

    Hmmm its about as Mega Server as World of Tanks is!!!

     

    UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem

  • jfoytekjfoytek tigard, ORPosts: 150Member
    Originally posted by GreenHell
    Originally posted by jfoytek

    Regardless of what has been said there are a few simple facts:

     

    Bye and large the majority of MMO's out today are either

    Theampark

    PvE

    or Just not very good

     

    Their is a huge lack of quality PvP/Crafting/Sandbox games.....

    And its sickening to see all the best IP's like Star Trek, Star Wars, Elder Scrolls going the way of WoW!

     

    How would you pitch a PVP/Crafting/Sandbox game to an investor? Can you show me one title out there that has made enough of a profit to justify the budget it would take to create it? This isn't 1999. There is heavy competition out there for our gaming dollars and the MMO player demands more from a game now then they ever did. What would you say to someone to get them to shell out millions of dollars for your game? What proof do you have that it could be a success? A few people on a forum that is known for its miserable posters wanting one? Would you try and point to EvE? An Indy title that has about 250k-300k subs? You would invest millions with that kind of proof being handed to you?

    Now think about if you had control over one of those popular IP's. Would you risk it? Would you want your IP tied to a game like SWG? A game that goes down in history as the "what not to do to your MMO" poster child.

    I am not saying that making a themepark game is a sure thing. I'm just saying if I were to invest money in to a game I would want the best odds I could get. Considering WoW makes more money off of vaniety pets and mounts in their store than most games make in a year or 2 of subs and it has completely dominated the industry for over 8 years thats the way I'm going.

    So you are stuck in a vicious cirlce. Your type of game has not been made by a AAA studio with a large budget because there is no proof it would be profitable. There is no proof it would be profitable because no one has taken the risk to make your game. It could be profitable. It could be the next WoW. No one really knows how the industry could turn but right now your only hope is a Indy studio that has some really talented people. I highly doubt you will ever see a well known, popular IP or any high rolling investors take that risk unless a small little Indy studio hits it big.

     

    A) Have theamparks been succesfull even with huge IP's backing them like Star Wars and Star Trek???

    Answer: NO

    B) Why make another copy of whats out there, look at the MMORPG game list how many times can you regurgetate the same crap and spit it out?

    Answer: Where is the risk in doing something not like the rest of the pack

    C) How often do you read on message boards people like me clammer and btiching and begging for a decent MMO with PvP/Crafting/ in an open Sand Box?

    Answer: All the time

     

    So why wouldnt you go against the main stream and garunteed yourself a client base that is waiting to be had!

    UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem

  • RelGnRelGn halalaPosts: 494Member
    Originally posted by jfoytek
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by jfoytek
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by jfoytek

     

     

     CAREBEARS!!! 

    ok so this is pretty much the crux of your argument.

    Secondly you are talking about this in releation to WoW. I mean really? If you are going to use that stupid term at least talk about it in relation to a game where you actually lose something, where there was an actual risk.

    Full loot, losing a chunk of xp, dropping items, all that constitutes risk.

    What exactly do you lose in WoW? You lessen your argument by using WoW as an example of pvp risk/reward.

    Unless of coursee WoW allows for you to lose xp, drop items and have your corpse looted?

    in which case "cheerfully withdrawn".

    Where did I ever say that WoW was hardcore or a pvp game???  I am comparing ESO to being just another WoW a game I dont want!  But yes I have said that WoW will likely be better because you have freedom of movement to go anywhere you want in WoW at any level....  Its Zones are not instanced like ESO's will be!

    So yeah WoW will likely be a better game but that just means I would rather roll in Mud then Manure!

    And it is same for ESO. And there is no typical questing in ESO like WOW and is as instanced as WOW is. What do you exactly mean when you say ESO zones are instanced?

    It doesnt take a genius to figure out what the Mega Server is! 

    Lets see when you complete all the quests in your home region you will be able to go enjoy level 50 content in another regions home region and do all the quests etc there..... 

    Now think about it!!!  You were a nightelf in WoW and you start off in Darnassus when you hit 50 you can now go do all the content in Mulgore but why???  Why would you take on a bunch of lvl 1 mobs how is this level 50 content?  How can the content be level 50 for you and level 1 for them???  Because you are in an identical Instance of the zone that they are in, your content is your level there content is there level.... IE the Mega Server at work....

    Infact lets not stop there lets choose PvE only so now your in this copy of a zone that doesnt allow pvp and is scaled to your level....

    While someone else is in a similiar copy who Chose PvP etc etc

    And its all one Huge Mega Server..... Uh yeah what a scam...  Its more like 10,000 Instanced zones running at the same time with a couple people in them....

    Hmmm its about as Mega Server as World of Tanks is!!!

     

    Yeah the game will be a fail if they have those instanced crap zones.

    They should just make different mega servers for those who want to play the game as a seamless world with open pvp etc.

    It's very simple 

    1 mega server for carebears aka noobs or mother raised children

    1 mega server for oldschool players who want to have that god damn real mmo experience.

    image
  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,452Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jfoytek
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by jfoytek

     

     

     CAREBEARS!!! 

    ok so this is pretty much the crux of your argument.

    Secondly you are talking about this in releation to WoW. I mean really? If you are going to use that stupid term at least talk about it in relation to a game where you actually lose something, where there was an actual risk.

    Full loot, losing a chunk of xp, dropping items, all that constitutes risk.

    What exactly do you lose in WoW? You lessen your argument by using WoW as an example of pvp risk/reward.

    Unless of coursee WoW allows for you to lose xp, drop items and have your corpse looted?

    in which case "cheerfully withdrawn".

    Where did I ever say that WoW was hardcore or a pvp game???  I am comparing ESO to being just another WoW a game I dont want!  But yes I have said that WoW will likely be better because you have freedom of movement to go anywhere you want in WoW at any level....  Its Zones are not instanced like ESO's will be!

    So yeah WoW will likely be a better game but that just means I would rather roll in Mud then Manure!

    I suppose I inferred it from this line:

    Well news flash, WoW became a great game because of content and its SANDBOX, the ability to go anywhere and kill anyone that lived on the server no matter if that ment a suicidal charge into ogrimar.

    What type of suicide run can one really have in WoW? and hwat does it matter if you kill anyone in WoW.

    However, you have clarified your point so carry on. (also, wow isn't a sandbox and never was).

  • jfoytekjfoytek tigard, ORPosts: 150Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by jfoytek
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by jfoytek

     

     

     CAREBEARS!!! 

    ok so this is pretty much the crux of your argument.

    Secondly you are talking about this in releation to WoW. I mean really? If you are going to use that stupid term at least talk about it in relation to a game where you actually lose something, where there was an actual risk.

    Full loot, losing a chunk of xp, dropping items, all that constitutes risk.

    What exactly do you lose in WoW? You lessen your argument by using WoW as an example of pvp risk/reward.

    Unless of coursee WoW allows for you to lose xp, drop items and have your corpse looted?

    in which case "cheerfully withdrawn".

    Where did I ever say that WoW was hardcore or a pvp game???  I am comparing ESO to being just another WoW a game I dont want!  But yes I have said that WoW will likely be better because you have freedom of movement to go anywhere you want in WoW at any level....  Its Zones are not instanced like ESO's will be!

    So yeah WoW will likely be a better game but that just means I would rather roll in Mud then Manure!

    I suppose I inferred it from this line:

    Well news flash, WoW became a great game because of content and its SANDBOX, the ability to go anywhere and kill anyone that lived on the server no matter if that ment a suicidal charge into ogrimar.

    What type of suicide run can one really have in WoW? and hwat does it matter if you kill anyone in WoW.

    However, you have clarified your point so carry on. (also, wow isn't a sandbox and never was).

    Sandbox = A game map in which all area's are accessable by anyplayer....

    For the most part this is true about WoW with the excpetion of dungeons and battle arena's

    So I contend WoW is Primarly a Sandbox with Theampark content.....

     

    Which is a huge upgrade from crap games like SWTOR and STO

    UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    Stopped reading at Carebear.

    Stopped giving you any credibility when I skimmed down a bit and saw you say that Trammel ruined UO.

    Your "opinion" on game design is laughable.

    As are your comprehension of facts.

    Trammel made UO infinitely better. The small subset of players who were REALLY pissed about it and weren't crybabies moved to Siege Perilous and had the EXACT same gameplay experience. The population of the game jumped dramatically. The availability of PvP in Felucca jumped dramatically.

    SWG was ruined from the start, NGE was just the final nail in the coffin which had already been shut and buried by then. The game had some great ideas, but the execution was ALWAYS horrible and the game was on it's last legs long before the CU and NGE.

    Darkfall never took off because it is/was garbage gaming, most people don't like circle jerk bunny hop Counterstrike PvP in their MMOs. Oh, and they also don't like an extremely buggy, unpolished, piles of shit.

    Now, I have NO idea if ESO is going to be any good or not.

    But anywho who thinks a full loot kill anyone steal anything Elder Scrolls MMO would actually work is, well.... misguided.

    I am a big fan of the ES RPGs, and I know enough to know what systems in those games wouldn't work in a MMO.

    And guess what?

    Those are the systems not going in to ESO?!

    Recent revelations have all but proven that Zenimax knows what they are doing in designing this game - or they are listening to the fans that have a clue.

  • Po_ggPo_gg Twigwarren, WestfarthingPosts: 2,714Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GreenHell
    Originally posted by jfoytek

    Regardless of what has been said there are a few simple facts:

     

    Bye and large the majority of MMO's out today are either

    Theampark

    PvE

    or Just not very good

     

    Their is a huge lack of quality PvP/Crafting/Sandbox games.....

    And its sickening to see all the best IP's like Star Trek, Star Wars, Elder Scrolls going the way of WoW!

     

    How would you pitch a PVP/Crafting/Sandbox game to an investor? Can you show me one title out there that has made enough of a profit to justify the budget it would take to create it? This isn't 1999. There is heavy competition out there for our gaming dollars and the MMO player demands more from a game now then they ever did. What would you say to someone to get them to shell out millions of dollars for your game? What proof do you have that it could be a success? A few people on a forum that is known for its miserable posters wanting one? Would you try and point to EvE? An Indy title that has about 250k-300k subs? You would invest millions with that kind of proof being handed to you?

    Now think about if you had control over one of those popular IP's. Would you risk it? Would you want your IP tied to a game like SWG? A game that goes down in history as the "what not to do to your MMO" poster child.

    I am not saying that making a themepark game is a sure thing. I'm just saying if I were to invest money in to a game I would want the best odds I could get. Considering WoW makes more money off of vaniety pets and mounts in their store than most games make in a year or 2 of subs and it has completely dominated the industry for over 8 years thats the way I'm going.

    So you are stuck in a vicious cirlce. Your type of game has not been made by a AAA studio with a large budget because there is no proof it would be profitable. There is no proof it would be profitable because no one has taken the risk to make your game. It could be profitable. It could be the next WoW. No one really knows how the industry could turn but right now your only hope is a Indy studio that has some really talented people. I highly doubt you will ever see a well known, popular IP or any high rolling investors take that risk unless a small little Indy studio hits it big.

     

    Nice summary, pretty much this. I'd love to see however a PvE/Crafting/Sandbox game :) without the stench of pvp I guess it could be a massive hit.

    I don't have any proof ofc but I think sandboxes of today have niche numbers only because pvp. Someone cited Minecraft as an example of sandbox popularity, but even in Minecraft all the big stuff (like Minas Tirith, or the whole Middle-earth, or the scenes from Game of Thrones etc.) were built on separate servers, without any pvp griefers.

     

     jfoytek wrote the "simple facts" of the majority of MMO's - it's not without a reason, nor caused by UFO's or naughty conspiracies by devs against the poor, opressed pvp people... simply the facts. Themepark and pve sells. And the money goes where the sell is. GreenHell +1.

  • MildozeMildoze Overland Park, KSPosts: 9Member

    I don't often find myself replying to post on this website, but when I do it's because someone is really off their rocker. Show me one sandbox game that has the WoW numbers and I'll show you a successful dev/publisher that is making mmos just for the fun of it. It's all about that bottom dollar and that dollar has spoken. People want to be handheld/guided and not overwhelmed about the game they play to relax... as well they should be. The majority of people playing these games, do so after work or on the weekends and can't be bothered to spend hours and hours only to find out they been killed and will have to start over there and walk back here or w/e all because some jackass who has no job/life wants to be a troll. Sandbox would/could fit this series well enough, the problem is that it wont work with the main stream, but this game is very far from what I would call "Themepark" through and through. So while I do think back to the days of yore when PVP ran rampant through the Crossroads and how much fun I used to have. It also reminds me of getting corpse camped for 45 mins right in the middle of my afternoon off from work when all I wanted to do was find some people for a dungeon run.

    image
  • Po_ggPo_gg Twigwarren, WestfarthingPosts: 2,714Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Now, I have NO idea if ESO is going to be any good or not.

    But anywho who thinks a full loot kill anyone steal anything Elder Scrolls MMO would actually work is, well.... misguided.

    I am a big fan of the ES RPGs, and I know enough to know what systems in those games wouldn't work in a MMO.

    +1 to that as well. And misguided is a very kind and friendly word for it :)

  • GreenHellGreenHell ludlow, MAPosts: 1,322Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jfoytek
    *SNIP*

     

    A) Have theamparks been succesfull even with huge IP's backing them like Star Wars and Star Trek???

    Answer: NO

    I dont disagree with that but show me a sandbox that has. Show me a sandbox that has made even 1/4 of the profit as the biggest themepark. Your best sandbox can't break 300k. I would have a better chance on a themepark because I have proof it can be done. You do not.

    B) Why make another copy of whats out there, look at the MMORPG game list how many times can you regurgetate the same crap and spit it out?

    Answer: Where is the risk in doing something not like the rest of the pack

    Investors don't care how many of the same types of games are out there. Just like movies, books, tv shows. It doesnt matter to them. If there is any money to be made in cloning they will take it. Its all about risk vs reward. The rewards from a successful sandbox from what history has shown us are not great. The rewards from a successful themepark are insane.

    C) How often do you read on message boards people like me clammer and btiching and begging for a decent MMO with PvP/Crafting/ in an open Sand Box?

    Answer: All the time

     

    Message boards like this have a reputation for disgruntled gamers. People that are not happy flock here. Do you really believe that your opinions are a factual representation of what the majority of gamers want? WoW's 8 year domination would say otherwise. If you were an investor and you came here would you give even a little credibility to what your saying? Would you risk millions of dollars after reading most of the posts on this forum?

    So why wouldnt you go against the main stream and garunteed yourself a client base that is waiting to be had!

    Nothing is a guarantee. If the game wasnt perfect how many people would stick around? How many complaints would there be on these forums about the game. Hell, people dont even need to play a game before they bash it. The problem is you are not thinking about this from any perspective other than your desire to play the game you want to play. Thats cool. We are all gamers thats what we do. Thats not how an investor will look at it though. Its about numbers and a sandbox game can not prove through numbers alone it could turn a huge profit.

  • SysFailSysFail LondonPosts: 375Member
    Originally posted by Po_gg
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Now, I have NO idea if ESO is going to be any good or not.

    But anywho who thinks a full loot kill anyone steal anything Elder Scrolls MMO would actually work is, well.... misguided.

    I am a big fan of the ES RPGs, and I know enough to know what systems in those games wouldn't work in a MMO.

    +1 to that as well. And misguided is a very kind and friendly word for it :)

    I don't think i've read anyone mentioning that TESO should be full loot in this thread.

    UO trammel did very well post split, was the safe factor overly done yes, even the devs admit that, but it shows a good sandbox can be done without alienating those who prefer not to get involved in the PvP aspects of a game.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    This hate for themepark games as of late makes me laugh. There are less sandbox games because less people play them. Most players like some amount of guided experence. Also just because the game is themepark does not mean it auto sucks. =-P Also TES was very themepark. Quest trackers and map pointers, stories with very guided direction. There were a few sandbox type parts to the game but it was not the majority of the content. Real sandbox is being able to build and shape the world as a player and TES had none of that. Learn what sandbox means before you chuck out the game because its themepark.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,949Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jfoytek

    I have played Daggerfall, Battlespire, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim....  Forever I have journey thru the lands of Tamriel thinking just how awesome this game would be as an MMO....  And now that day is finally looming and I am horribly saddened!!!

     

    Knowing that another great title, has choosen the Carebear way, the dawning of the Themepark!  Star Trek Online, SWTOR and now ESO....  All steming from the birth of the themepark inside of the world of warcraft....  Well news flash, WoW became a great game because of content and its SANDBOX, the ability to go anywhere and kill anyone that lived on the server no matter if that ment a suicidal charge into ogrimar. 

    This Mega server concept where you instance the whole world IS NOT a SANDBOX and cannot be acceptable by any true gamer, being a person who loves all facets of the game from crafting to PvE to PVP because it destroys PVP and allows the CAREBEAR to never stray into danger!  Thus  his reward comes with no risk and the game lacks the sharp edge of a knife and will grow stale and boring because the ultimate mob will always be another player!

    Trammel Ruined Ultima Online

    NGE Ruined Star Wars Galaxy's

    The Hype of WoW made Shadowbane a desert

    Darkfall was destroyed by poor customer relations

    And ESO will dead before it releases because of a failed concept "The Mega Server"

    And its a real shame because you have the Following, you have the graphics, you have the history, you have put in place an excellent craftining system, you have the money and the backing to make a AAA game but you chose the road of the Themepark a fad that is not wanted by anyone other then the CAREBEARS!!! 

    The hype of Wow was not really what destroyed Shadowbane, while the game had a huge potential it just wasnt good enough.

    And it wasnt really the customer releations that is DFs problem, bad UI and bad programming really ruined the game.

    I agree that it sucks that ESO isnt made into a sandbox game closer to Daggerfall than Wow but it really isnt the themeparks fault, it is lazy devs who lack the imagination to make the mechanics to work in a MMO and instead use the same old standard mechanics.

    As for carebears I am not so sure that TES really would work as a hardcore FFA PVP full loot game either, the main point of making a MMO in TES world should be to make a massive version of the singleplayer games, no to make a new pre trammel UO. There are plenty of other IPs that would work excellent for that, ESO should be made for fans of the original games who want a massive version of their game.

    World of darkness on the other hand is the right IP for that, so I hope CCP gets the game done fast.

  • jfoytekjfoytek tigard, ORPosts: 150Member
    Originally posted by GreenHell
    Originally posted by jfoytek
    *SNIP*

     

    A) Have theamparks been succesfull even with huge IP's backing them like Star Wars and Star Trek???

    Answer: NO

    I dont disagree with that but show me a sandbox that has. Show me a sandbox that has made even 1/4 of the profit as the biggest themepark. Your best sandbox can't break 300k. I would have a better chance on a themepark because I have proof it can be done. You do not.

    Show me another Theampark that has made 1/4 the profit of WoW?

    UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem

  • spladianspladian st paul, MNPosts: 20Member

    It's not even about games any more for half of ya...

     

    Its about being addicted junkies trying to find that feeling of your first high again.

     

    Seems to be the common rant these days... I've played games x,y,z... they all suck and don't even come close to game w.

     

    Go get some help, junkies.....the cheese and whine you bring to half of these forums is atrocious.

  • GreenHellGreenHell ludlow, MAPosts: 1,322Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jfoytek
    Originally posted by GreenHell
    Originally posted by jfoytek
    *SNIP*

     

    A) Have theamparks been succesfull even with huge IP's backing them like Star Wars and Star Trek???

    Answer: NO

    I dont disagree with that but show me a sandbox that has. Show me a sandbox that has made even 1/4 of the profit as the biggest themepark. Your best sandbox can't break 300k. I would have a better chance on a themepark because I have proof it can be done. You do not.

    Show me another Theampark that has made 1/4 the profit of WoW?

    You see thats the point. I don't have to. I have at least 1 game in the genre that has made crazy amounts of money. You do not. I can show you examples of themepark MMOs that I'm pretty sure beat your best sandbox subscription numbers. Is there a sandbox with better numbers than EVE? So the number I have to beat is what? 250K? 300k? Do you really believe that is a hard number to beat? I'm pretty sure Rift beats that. In just sub numbers I'm pretty sure ToR beats that as well.

    The case for a sandbox MMO has been weak since WoW came out. Is WoW just some freak thing that will never happen again? I don't know but couldn't the same be said for EVE? Now think as an investor not as a gamer that wants his game made. Where would you invest your money?

  • jfoytekjfoytek tigard, ORPosts: 150Member
    Originally posted by GreenHell

    Nothing is a guarantee. If the game wasnt perfect how many people would stick around? How many complaints would there be on these forums about the game. Hell, people dont even need to play a game before they bash it. The problem is you are not thinking about this from any perspective other than your desire to play the game you want to play. Thats cool. We are all gamers thats what we do. Thats not how an investor will look at it though. Its about numbers and a sandbox game can not prove through numbers alone it could turn a huge profit.

    Runescape

    Ultima Online

    Eve Online

    Star Wars Galaxies

     

    Now name 4 Theamparks that could compare too these old Sandbox's in profit and subscriptions?  Without using WoW....

    I will help you out

    1) Everquest

    UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem

  • FromHellFromHell NY, NYPosts: 1,311Member
    Originally posted by jfoytek

     but you chose the road of the Themepark a fad that is not wanted by anyone other then the CAREBEARS!!! 

     there is some truth in this, I´ve seen this with every game in development, the carebears jump in with their whining for safemode play and restrictive mechanics, they are the ones ruining pretty much every MMO in the last decade and developers do ALWAYS listen to them, this is why we can´t have nice new things anymore and at least some realism and openness, decision and free will.

    damn you carebears, I´ll be waiting for you in the eternal fire of hell !!!

    Secrets of Dragon?s Spine Trailer.. ! :D
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    Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret World
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X_SbZCHpc&t=21s
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  • SysFailSysFail LondonPosts: 375Member
    Originally posted by FromHell
    Originally posted by jfoytek

     but you chose the road of the Themepark a fad that is not wanted by anyone other then the CAREBEARS!!! 

     there is some truth in this, I´ve seen this with every game in development, the carebears jump in with their whining for safemode play and restrictive mechanics, they are the ones ruining pretty much every MMO in the last decade and developers do ALWAYS listen to them, this is why we can´t have nice new things anymore and at least some realism and openness, decision and free will.

    damn you carebears, I´ll be waiting for you in the eternal fire of hell !!!

    Free will... shush... your alert the lobotomist's...

  • baphametbaphamet omaha, NEPosts: 2,836Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by GreenHell
    Originally posted by jfoytek Originally posted by GreenHell Originally posted by jfoytek *SNIP*  
    A) Have theamparks been succesfull even with huge IP's backing them like Star Wars and Star Trek??? Answer: NO
    I dont disagree with that but show me a sandbox that has. Show me a sandbox that has made even 1/4 of the profit as the biggest themepark. Your best sandbox can't break 300k. I would have a better chance on a themepark because I have proof it can be done. You do not.
    Show me another Theampark that has made 1/4 the profit of WoW?
    You see thats the point. I don't have to. I have at least 1 game in the genre that has made crazy amounts of money. You do not. I can show you examples of themepark MMOs that I'm pretty sure beat your best sandbox subscription numbers. Is there a sandbox with better numbers than EVE? So the number I have to beat is what? 250K? 300k? Do you really believe that is a hard number to beat? I'm pretty sure Rift beats that. In just sub numbers I'm pretty sure ToR beats that as well.

    The case for a sandbox MMO has been weak since WoW came out. Is WoW just some freak thing that will never happen again? I don't know but couldn't the same be said for EVE? Now think as an investor not as a gamer that wants his game made. Where would you invest your money?


    i am willing to bet that SWTOR has more subs than any sandbox ever has at one point lol

    i am not against sandbox games but it is very niche much like the mmo community prior to wow

    expecting a title like TES to cater to a niche audience is not very realistic.

    also, TES games were not sandbox's so i am not sure why people expect the MMO to be one?

    just because you can do any quest you want at any time and anywhere does not make it a sandbox.

    there are quests for god sakes and a main story line had fed to you just like any other "theme park"

  • Alber_gamerAlber_gamer RomePosts: 557Member Uncommon

    Even sandbox is for carebears nowadays, so the point is moot.

     

    We're in a stage of gaming where what matters is that the 12 years old kid that got good scores in his school exams can get rewarded by daddy with a 60 buck videogame - and sadly, what has to be attractive for a 12 years old school kid to beg his daddy for, will not be attractive for seasoned gamers. It might at best be acceptable, and it doesn't matter if it's sandbox or themepark.

     

    You can do two things: 

     

    1) Whine. Will get you nowhere. You are the minority.

    2) Make your own game, or help funding one through sites like indiegogo and kickstarter.

     

     

    Of course, whining takes less effort, and is free. You take your pick.

    My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.

  • GreenHellGreenHell ludlow, MAPosts: 1,322Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jfoytek
    Originally posted by GreenHell

    Nothing is a guarantee. If the game wasnt perfect how many people would stick around? How many complaints would there be on these forums about the game. Hell, people dont even need to play a game before they bash it. The problem is you are not thinking about this from any perspective other than your desire to play the game you want to play. Thats cool. We are all gamers thats what we do. Thats not how an investor will look at it though. Its about numbers and a sandbox game can not prove through numbers alone it could turn a huge profit.

    Runescape

    Ultima Online

    Eve Online

    Star Wars Galaxies

     

    Now name 4 Theamparks that could compare too these old Sandbox's in profit and subscriptions?  Without using WoW....

    I will help you out

    1) Everquest

    You just really don't get it do you? I am not trying to be insulting but you just can't see past what you want. That makes this discussion difficult. But ok lets roll with what you posted.

    Out of all of those games which ones were made in the past 8 years?

    EVE 2003

    UO 1997

    Runescape 2001

    SWG 2003

    Everquest 1999

    Why is it so hard for people to understand that the industry has changed and evolved with the demands of the times? WoW has redefined what an MMORPG is. For better or worse (thats all personal opinion) things will never go back to the way they were. How many of todays gamers would pay for that kind of experience? I think EVE answers that question.

    People always point to EQ as why a sandbox game could and should be made. The same old "it's been around for so long, it has so many expansions" I don't argue that. It's staying power is pretty amazing. That being said though WoW has been around for 8 years and unlike EQ it has dominated this genre of gaming for it's entire life. If we give credit to EQ how can you not give more credit to what WoW has accomplished. Times have changed. I am not saying there isnt as many players for that type of game as there used to be. There may be. There are more players though that want a themepark game. Im pretty sure the difference in those numbers is quite substantial. So once again where would you put your money?

     

  • baphametbaphamet omaha, NEPosts: 2,836Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by jfoytek
    Originally posted by GreenHell Originally posted by jfoytek *SNIP*  
    A) Have theamparks been succesfull even with huge IP's backing them like Star Wars and Star Trek??? Answer: NO
    I dont disagree with that but show me a sandbox that has. Show me a sandbox that has made even 1/4 of the profit as the biggest themepark. Your best sandbox can't break 300k. I would have a better chance on a themepark because I have proof it can be done. You do not.
    Show me another Theampark that has made 1/4 the profit of WoW?

    i can show you multiple themepark games that have/had more subs than any sandbox.

    sandbox games are for a niche audience, if you cannot acknowledge that you simply are not being realistic or knowledgeable to the subject at all.

    also, you keep throwing around the "care bear" label as if being an ES fan of the single player games isn't "care bear" play style.

    if you are a such a hardcore sandbox pvp'er, why in the hell are you a fan of the ES series you care bear?? lol

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,980Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jfoytek

    Regardless of what has been said there are a few simple facts:

     

    Bye and large the majority of MMO's out today are either

    Theampark

    PvE

    or Just not very good

     

    Their is a huge lack of quality PvP/Crafting/Sandbox games.....

    And its sickening to see all the best IP's like Star Trek, Star Wars, Elder Scrolls going the way of WoW!

     

    Now these points I can defintely agree with you on. 

    But the trick is, don't blame the players who prefer this style of gaming or insult them with name-calling, their preferences are no better or worse than yours. (or mine)

    I do think the market for games that you and I favor might be larger than currently believed by investors/developers, but until some PVP centric title (besides EVE) breaks out and becomes a big success (like Minecraft did) we're not likely to see a lot of love for our playstyles.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by jfoytek
    Well news flash, WoW became a great game because of content and its SANDBOX, the ability to go anywhere and kill anyone that lived on the server no matter if that ment a suicidal charge into ogrimar. 

    Your not thinking straight. WoW was never a sandbox.

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