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POLL: Cross faction coop and the effect on AvA and "Faction Pride"

13

Comments

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,451Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by General_Dru-Zod
    Originally posted by hMJem
    If you guys want a truly sandbox experience, why not play Everquest Next then? They've already said it's going to be the largest sandbox MMO of all time, and barring delays, this and EQ-Next are set to release this year.

    This.

    I was sad when I heard about this ... but there will be CU for my faction pride fix and EQ next for my sandbox needs.

    Only if CU had some PvE. Not even a open world dungeon to chill in. So what I sub 2 games, one for PvP and one for PvE? No thanks.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,451Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Distopia

    I can't agree with anything you said here, Eve is hardcore ( if we should even apply that term to games) daoc was not, it was midcore (as you put it) comparatively. Factions talking and playing together should have no dictation over the intensity of PVP, as for the most part these two systems are aimed at two completely different players(end game PVE and end-game PVP).

    Spying would be no harder between friends with or without the option to speak in game. I also find it odd that someone who is talking about  hardcore (one of the few) etc.. Is complaining about spying in PVP games, that's part of the thrill.

    "know your enemy", is an important part of warfare.

    Real life is full of cheating and life not being fair. I get enough of that there. When I play my video games I like fair play. Who wins a PvP fight should be about skill not gear score. DAoC did have some people who paided for a 2nd account to be able to spy, now you just need to get to level 50 and make a few friends. Sorry but spying is not hardcore its just cheating and anything that makes it easier to cheat should not be an option in a game. I am sure EVE is awesome but ESO is not using the EVE model for their game. ESO is and is now breaking what made that work so well. My hats off to the carebears. Never thought they would take a 180 on this. Few of us came up with ideas that could give both sides what they wanted without messing things up but thats not what happened. My guess is they will lose a lot of the DAoC fans who were looking forward to this game.

    I'm still perplexed how you dictate this as any more carebear than the orginal design. This game was centered around segregated PVP from the start. I do not see how this changes that for better or worse, as it doesn't change the PVP design what so ever.

    About spying... Like it or not that's your choice, I still hold to the opinion this changes nothing toward that.

    If you did not play DAoC in its prime you just wont get it. I have yet to see a hardcore DAoC fan say they are ok with this change. Its sad, my fav RPG of all time is TES and my fav MMO was DAoC. This was going to be epic.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • Originally posted by meddyck
    I have a hard time seeing why this even matters for AvA. Since there's only one server (the mega-server), you surely were going to be able to roll all three factions on a single account. You just wouldn't be able to join a AvA instance on one faction that you already joined on a different faction. Anybody who wanted to experience all 3 factions already could; you just couldn't do it on a single character. So now it'll be a little more convenient for those who wanted to see everything. So? AvA will thrive or fail based on its own design not on how many PvE zones you can play in.

     

    Meddyck is right in this instance, Playing Midgard I had the oppurtunity to play on aonther Realm anytime I wanted in DAOC...The reason I disliked Hibs/Albs had little to do with the ability to play their content.

    You want Faction pride in a game? Have Message Boards that aren't over Moderated like Guild Wars 2.

    I don't think a lot of people realize how important Vnboards played into Faction Pride in Early DAOC, They weren't super Moderated, and you could talk a ton of shit to opposing side....This lead to many many Rivalaries.

    So that would be my suggestion, have forums, don't over mod them down, and let players Troll One another if you want to make people hate the opposing faction.

     

     

  • JasonJJasonJ New Port Richey, FLPosts: 395Member
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by JasonJ
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    I love how people who have never experienced faction pride are pretending they know anything about it. This will ruin it.

     This thread is starting to sound like a political thread.

    Only our pride is real pride.

    Sorry, to say that the ONLY game that had any players experience "pride" is DaoC isnt even laughable at best.

    Not saying it was the only game that did, saying they did it best.

     I was not replying to you. I was clearly replying to the person attempting to say the game cannot have real pride with this change that really doesnt change anything in terms of it being open world and faction interchangable. The game is still just like DaoC with a piss poor attempt to make it seem more open. It still has the invisible walls, it still has gated themepark PvP and it still has forced race/factions created to hold players hands so they dont get confused as to who the enemy is.

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,908Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    I love how people who have never experienced faction pride are pretending they know anything about it. This will ruin it.

    So are you saying DAOC was the only game where faction pride existed? You do realize many PVP guilds started out in DAOC right? Many moved on to other games after TOA, both friend and foe and kept those rivalries intact. Faction pride is something most who played DAOC walked away with, and still carry with them when playing any game, MMO or not...

    Some of you are just too hung up on mechanics dictating your playstyle, but so much so that arbitrary circumstance dictates how you can play, or what you take pride in? You're saying that because X exists Y can't exist, yet X is connected to Z in this instance not Y.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,451Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    I love how people who have never experienced faction pride are pretending they know anything about it. This will ruin it.

    So are you saying DAOC was the only game where faction pride existed? You do realize many PVP guilds started out in DAOC right? Many moved on to other games after TOA, both friend and foe and kept those rivalries intact. Faction pride is something most who played DAOC walked away with, and still carry with them when playing any game, MMO or not...

    Some of you are just too hung up on mechanics dictating your playstyle, but so much so that arbitrary circumstance dictates how you can play, or what you take pride in? You're saying that because X exists Y can't exist, yet X is connected to Z in this instance not Y.

    Yes, you start changing enough you no longer have the model you started with. Chemistry is a science you cant mess with unless you want a different product. One little element added and you have something different. You go from magic to poison. If they wanted to copy the best 3 faction PvP and the best faction pride ever done. Then they should have picked up the DAoC RvR model and kept it as it was and added the modern bells like VO etc. Mess with PvE in any way you want but keep what made DAoC work intact. Now... we dont know what we will get. Its a random element that messes with the chemistry of DAoCs faction pride that drove RvR. Not a smart move IMO.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • JasonJJasonJ New Port Richey, FLPosts: 395Member
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

     If they wanted to copy the best 3 faction PvP and the best faction pride ever done.

     And as can be plainly seen by the ENTIRE GENRE...NOBOY wanted to, because it wasnt that good and it was far too limiting in game design. The only people interested in that small tiny box of limitations are the very same people that made DaoC.

    Themepark PvE is bad enough, themepark PvP is the WORST idea in the history of the genre and the only players that want it are SOME of the 250k that played it and had limited MMO experience before DaoC. Personally, I was glad I left the game before Hibernia players had a fit and did their sit in protests about the crapfest the game was.

    Seriously, how many games were so bad that its own players protested IN GAME about it?

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,908Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Distopia

    I can't agree with anything you said here, Eve is hardcore ( if we should even apply that term to games) daoc was not, it was midcore (as you put it) comparatively. Factions talking and playing together should have no dictation over the intensity of PVP, as for the most part these two systems are aimed at two completely different players(end game PVE and end-game PVP).

    Spying would be no harder between friends with or without the option to speak in game. I also find it odd that someone who is talking about  hardcore (one of the few) etc.. Is complaining about spying in PVP games, that's part of the thrill.

    "know your enemy", is an important part of warfare.

    Real life is full of cheating and life not being fair. I get enough of that there. When I play my video games I like fair play. Who wins a PvP fight should be about skill not gear score. DAoC did have some people who paided for a 2nd account to be able to spy, now you just need to get to level 50 and make a few friends. Sorry but spying is not hardcore its just cheating and anything that makes it easier to cheat should not be an option in a game. I am sure EVE is awesome but ESO is not using the EVE model for their game. ESO is and is now breaking what made that work so well. My hats off to the carebears. Never thought they would take a 180 on this. Few of us came up with ideas that could give both sides what they wanted without messing things up but thats not what happened. My guess is they will lose a lot of the DAoC fans who were looking forward to this game.

    I'm still perplexed how you dictate this as any more carebear than the orginal design. This game was centered around segregated PVP from the start. I do not see how this changes that for better or worse, as it doesn't change the PVP design what so ever.

    About spying... Like it or not that's your choice, I still hold to the opinion this changes nothing toward that.

    If you did not play DAoC in its prime you just wont get it. I have yet to see a hardcore DAoC fan say they are ok with this change. Its sad, my fav RPG of all time is TES and my fav MMO was DAoC. This was going to be epic.

    How do you know who is/was a hardcore DAOC fan or not?  It was my first MMO of course I'm a fan of it. I quit in 03, I'd say that was during it's prime. this is an arbitrary thing compared to all that was part of the DAOC formula, the races, the armor, are all still unique to alliance, you will never see them outside of PVP until lvl 50, at 50 it's optional to go to the other side or not, like it was in DAOC (Mordred).

    Anyway... My point was, TESO has the same PVP set up it had from the start. This doesn't make it any less/more carebear.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • RoguewizRoguewiz Lampasas, TXPosts: 614Member Uncommon

    There is nothing inherently wrong with this, and honestly I'm all for it.  My friends and I typically have different opinions on which sides to play on.  Even more so when there are 3 factions with different races.  One of my friends has a different view of what good and evil are, so to him, a side with Dark Elves or Orcs would be "evil".  He also leans heavily towards Humans.  Being able to group up and do some of the upper end dungeons with each other would be nice.

    However, I'd say this:  Cross-Faction talking should be limited to certain zones.  In RVR areas, or in PvP in general, it shouldn't be allowed.

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  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,451Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by JasonJ
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

     If they wanted to copy the best 3 faction PvP and the best faction pride ever done.

     And as can be plainly seen by the ENTIRE GENRE...NOBOY wanted to, because it wasnt that good and it was far too limiting in game design. The only people interested in that small tiny box of limitations are the very same people that made DaoC.

    Themepark PvE is bad enough, themepark PvP is the WORST idea in the history of the genre and the only players that want it are SOME of the 250k that played it and had limited MMO experience before DaoC. Personally, I was glad I left the game before Hibernia players had a fit and did their sit in protests about the crapfest the game was.

    Seriously, how many games were so bad that its own players protested IN GAME about it?

    I get some or a lot were upset about the DAoC model. Maybe its just me but I think over the past 6 years we have had a lot of bad MMOs for a reasons. The chemistry of what made some MMOs like EQ1, WoW, EVE and DAoC to name a few. Was because they happened to mix things just right. The core of what made that game work was more art then just some cool ideas put together. If you want awesome sandbox PvP then IMO its best to look at the best of the best sandbox PvP game and breakdown to the core of what made that game work and they add your twist to it. VO story, player econ what ever. But when you start mixing things up now you are not sure what your going to get. ESO picked DAoC as their model and the more they pull away from what worked the more you dont know what your going to get. The greater the risk and sometimes it pays off but thats rare. 


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,908Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by JasonJ
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

     If they wanted to copy the best 3 faction PvP and the best faction pride ever done.

     And as can be plainly seen by the ENTIRE GENRE...NOBOY wanted to, because it wasnt that good and it was far too limiting in game design. The only people interested in that small tiny box of limitations are the very same people that made DaoC.

    Themepark PvE is bad enough, themepark PvP is the WORST idea in the history of the genre and the only players that want it are SOME of the 250k that played it and had limited MMO experience before DaoC. Personally, I was glad I left the game before Hibernia players had a fit and did their sit in protests about the crapfest the game was.

    Seriously, how many games were so bad that its own players protested IN GAME about it?

    I get some or a lot were upset about the DAoC model. Maybe its just me but I think over the past 6 years we have had a lot of bad MMOs for a reasons. The chemistry of what made some MMOs like EQ1, WoW, EVE and DAoC to name a few. Was because they happened to mix things just right. The core of what made that game work was more art then just some cool ideas put together. If you want awesome sandbox PvP then IMO its best to look at the best of the best sandbox PvP game and breakdown to the core of what made that game work and they add your twist to it. VO story, player econ what ever. But when you start mixing things up now you are not sure what your going to get. ESO picked DAoC as their model and the more they pull away from what worked the more you dont know what your going to get. The greater the risk and sometimes it pays off but thats rare. 

    Well this explains our difference of opinion quite well, I didn't get my hopes up of living those glory days in this game, as I don't expect the current overall populace to approach this game as many did games in 02 and 03. The demographic has shifted, PVp environments are more akin to FPS titles today, not people who like to work together to achieve common goals and provide a believable fun gaming experience.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • moroelmoroel triavnaPosts: 11Member
    So this game AvA will be the same as rift conquest?
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,451Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by moroel
    So this game AvA will be the same as rift conquest?

    We just got a major change and we had little info before and now we know even less. So at this point we can only guess.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • KyelthisKyelthis Phoenix, AZPosts: 284Member
    According to the recent interview with Maria Aliprando, you will only see players from your faction who have also finished their original faction zone, she said nothing about other players from other factions being present there. It seems like 2 conflicting ways on how it will work according to the other quote.
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,451Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kyelthis
    According to the recent interview with Maria Aliprando, you will only see players from your faction who have also finished their original faction zone, she said nothing about other players from other factions being present there. It seems like 2 conflicting ways on how it will work according to the other quote.

    Ya was just watching that and now I am confused. What one is it? One interview says one thing and THIS ONE says another.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • FearumFearum Cinnaminson, NJPosts: 1,166Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Kyelthis
    According to the recent interview with Maria Aliprando, you will only see players from your faction who have also finished their original faction zone, she said nothing about other players from other factions being present there. It seems like 2 conflicting ways on how it will work according to the other quote.

    Ya was just watching that and now I am confused. What one is it? One interview says one thing and THIS ONE says another.

     

    It looks like it just going to be a race to get to the third faction tier rewards now. In a few of the interviews it sounds like the rewards increase the most when you get there. Is this going to be how you get the best stuff in the game, like mats and items?
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,451Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Fearum
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Kyelthis
    According to the recent interview with Maria Aliprando, you will only see players from your faction who have also finished their original faction zone, she said nothing about other players from other factions being present there. It seems like 2 conflicting ways on how it will work according to the other quote.

    Ya was just watching that and now I am confused. What one is it? One interview says one thing and THIS ONE says another.

     

    It looks like it just going to be a race to get to the third faction tier rewards now. In a few of the interviews it sounds like the rewards increase the most when you get there. Is this going to be how you get the best stuff in the game, like mats and items?

    I hope it is. Cross faction teaming IMO as I have already said is a fail. If its as Maria says this is a compromise I can get behind!


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • KyelthisKyelthis Phoenix, AZPosts: 284Member
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    Originally posted by Fearum
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Kyelthis
    According to the recent interview with Maria Aliprando, you will only see players from your faction who have also finished their original faction zone, she said nothing about other players from other factions being present there. It seems like 2 conflicting ways on how it will work according to the other quote.

    Ya was just watching that and now I am confused. What one is it? One interview says one thing and THIS ONE says another.

     

    It looks like it just going to be a race to get to the third faction tier rewards now. In a few of the interviews it sounds like the rewards increase the most when you get there. Is this going to be how you get the best stuff in the game, like mats and items?

    I hope it is. Cross faction teaming IMO as I have already said is a fail. If its as Maria says this is a compromise I can get behind!

     

    Yeah, I agree. Grouping with the other faction is pretty immersion-breaking to me as far as a faction based game goes. I hope it's as she said it will be.
  • JasonJJasonJ New Port Richey, FLPosts: 395Member
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    I get some or a lot were upset about the DAoC model. Maybe its just me but I think over the past 6 years we have had a lot of bad MMOs for a reasons. The chemistry of what made some MMOs like EQ1, WoW, EVE and DAoC to name a few. Was because they happened to mix things just right. The core of what made that game work was more art then just some cool ideas put together. If you want awesome sandbox PvP then IMO its best to look at the best of the best sandbox PvP game and breakdown to the core of what made that game work and they add your twist to it. VO story, player econ what ever. But when you start mixing things up now you are not sure what your going to get. ESO picked DAoC as their model and the more they pull away from what worked the more you dont know what your going to get. The greater the risk and sometimes it pays off but thats rare. 

     Its all opinion based and I do THANK YOU for naming other good games, games which BTW had plenty of faction pride that totally negates the entire point of this thread.

    If a game can have faction pride without forced factions then the idea that forced pride is needed is negated 100% because you can make your own pride.

    Seriously, who is proud of their country by force? North Korea, thats who...I am proud of my country because it DESERVES IT...I sure as hell dont need someone to hold my hand and make it proud for me.

    BTW, I am proud of my country with MIXED races(even though there is only a human race but steriotypes prevail here) and I also can go to another nation, walk in their country and make war on them THERE ON THEIR BACKDOORS.

  • sapphensapphen Madison, NCPosts: 911Member Common

    Wow, talk about complete polar shift.  I don't feel this is any different than DAoC co-op servers.  I actually look foward to the game now (I even signed up for beta!).

  • ComafComaf Chicago, ILPosts: 1,154Member Common
    Originally posted by SavageHorizon
    Originally posted by rygard49

    Obviously the announced faction unlocks at level 50 is a hot topic amongst the PvP community. What do you all think, is faction pride dead now? Will this decision have no effect at all? Will faction pride have as big an effect on AvA as some think it will?

    I heartily disagree with the decision to open up the borders at level 50. I feel that it was pandering, that it goes against the original design that attracted me to the game, and that it will undoubtedly have a negative effect on the faction pride they were seeking to foster. All for the sake of the PvE players.

    However, I also don't think it necessarily destroys the potential for AvA to be great feature. It remains to be seen what the long term consequences of this decision will be.

    It's great for RP's and PVE's, now we have two more fation areas to explore even though they are instanced versions. The PVP's can go there but only for PVE lol and they won't see the otrher faction.

    PVE in other faction areas and our own fation area plus PVE in Cyrodiil = win for PVE's.

    There needs to be a distinctive separation between factions.  The only time this should change is if there is full invasion in effect, ala, our faction just took the last keep and opened up the enemy realm for full pvp UNTIL the keep is retaken.  Now that, my friends, would be awesome.  Will that happen?  No, just too much fun for a gamer to have.  And we have learned that fun is usually not part...okay - there I go.

    Let's hope this works out - but I use Dark Age of Camelot as the model to compare other RvR mmorpgs (not many to choose from if any)...and I don't like opening anything that doesn't include full invasion.  I hate seeing lore scrubbed and like TSW I found is absolutely silly that we hung out in pve with folks we pvp'd.  Just lazyness and lackluster imagination.

     

    Hopefully I'm wrong and it works out.  We need the 3 realm model to evolve and be recognized as a standard by the younger player generation (or the post WoW folks). 

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  • nightfallrobnightfallrob Prescott Valley, AZPosts: 167Member

    To me this step seems much more in-keeping with TES lore and traditions. Many of the quests in TES reflected a "shades of gray" morality that had the player allied with people he couldn't trust or turned against later. Being able to work with other faction members will be reminiscent of what spying actually looks like IRL: lots of contacts, a few allies, no real friends. I can deal with this idea a lot easier than I can "you can't go there, ever, because you work for the wrong team." 

  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon ParisPosts: 2,076Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nightfallrob

    To me this step seems much more in-keeping with TES lore and traditions. Many of the quests in TES reflected a "shades of gray" morality that had the player allied with people he couldn't trust or turned against later. Being able to work with other faction members will be reminiscent of what spying actually looks like IRL: lots of contacts, a few allies, no real friends. I can deal with this idea a lot easier than I can "you can't go there, ever, because you work for the wrong team." 

    You can't see other faction members in the instanced copy of the other faction areas.

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  • BuccaneerBuccaneer Under The BedPosts: 507Member Uncommon

    I posted the below in another thread, but it seems more suitable for this thread.

    I don't understand why people are worrying over faction pride in this game. I could understand it if the game was going to have the classic servers, but its not, it's going to be one big mega server. The pvp zone is going to have loads of instances of it running simultaneously, and from what I can gather, the player will have the option of transfering between instances. It looks like nothing will be in place to stop players in a losing battle transfering to a different instance. Where's the pride in that? With the mentality of todays MMO players, you just know they will take the easy option instead of facing the difficult option of trying to turn the tide of battle.

     

  • EpicentEpicent Pierre Part, LAPosts: 647Member
    Originally posted by SavageHorizon
    Originally posted by rygard49

    Obviously the announced faction unlocks at level 50 is a hot topic amongst the PvP community. What do you all think, is faction pride dead now? Will this decision have no effect at all? Will faction pride have as big an effect on AvA as some think it will?

    I heartily disagree with the decision to open up the borders at level 50. I feel that it was pandering, that it goes against the original design that attracted me to the game, and that it will undoubtedly have a negative effect on the faction pride they were seeking to foster. All for the sake of the PvE players.

    However, I also don't think it necessarily destroys the potential for AvA to be great feature. It remains to be seen what the long term consequences of this decision will be.

    It's great for RP's and PVE's, now we have two more fation areas to explore even though they are instanced versions. The PVP's can go there but only for PVE lol and they won't see the otrher faction.

    PVE in other faction areas and our own fation area plus PVE in Cyrodiil = win for PVE's.

    How is this great for pvers. How is it in the slightest way realistic that you are in someone elses nation and never see any of them. I cant even begin to state how stupid this is.

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