Originally posted by JasonJ Originally posted by SlickShoesI think the guys he lists as great developers shows how out of touch he really is, these guys havent released a good game in over 10 years.
Now then...please list all the "good" MMOs made over the last 10 years and I will then provide you with a list 10x as long with the bad ones. That is what he is touching on.
He's touching on his own (must ... resist) ego, nothing more. We'll see how he deals with the gaming community that exists now as opposed to the gaming community that existed then. It's a very different world. We've all seen where blind ego leads games these days ... if his first re-steps are any indication, I feel sorry for his investors.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
I think the guys he lists as great developers shows how out of touch he really is, these guys havent released a good game in over 10 years.
Define "good".
Company makes a game with zero that is new.
Company makes a game with many new innovative ideas.
Both can be good or bad but do you lend weight to the new ideas over the old?
A great game with no new ideas does nothing to push gameplay forward...a bad or bland game with a ton of new ideas will be built on in the future pushing gaming to new places.
Everyone he listed as great developers did just that, pushed gaming forward to where it is today.
Now then...please list all the "good" MMOs made over the last 10 years and I will then provide you with a list 10x as long with the bad ones. That is what he is touching on.
Game Designers don't just make MMO's he is talking about the industry as a whole, and if you believe it's that devoid of talent you must have been living under a rock.
The guys he mentions like molyneux are legends but they have not produced anything remotely good for a generation of gaming now. That XBLA Fable game really pushed the boundaries of gaming eh?
Now then...please list all the "good" MMOs made over the last 10 years and I will then provide you with a list 10x as long with the bad ones. That is what he is touching on.
Well, hang around long enough and RG's personal game creds will qualify for both parts of your list.
Maybe he's got another stale idea or two hidden away in that notebook paper.
It already does. UO was a great game and Tabula Rasa was a bad one...however, Tabula Rasa was at least innovative and very different from UO which shows he is a good designer, coming up with new ideas and not stuck in the past like ooh...say, everyone from DaoC which cant seem to get out of that tiny little box they created 13 years ago.
Game Designers don't just make MMO's he is talking about the industry as a whole, and if you believe it's that devoid of talent you must have been living under a rock.
The guys he mentions like molyneux are legends but they have not produced anything remotely good for a generation of gaming now. That XBLA Fable game really pushed the boundaries of gaming eh?
He didnt say its DEVIOD of talen, nor did I. He listed SOME people he believes are great designers and he is correct, there are a LOT of really bad game makers out there and the industry agrees with him by how many games dont do well, get average or lower ratings and just plain do nothing for the industry other than add yet another game to the market.
Now throw in how many quality companies are being bought out by major corporations and are being trashed...and taadaa!
3. He should just stick to what he knows best, rehashing the only half decent game he's ever made. (which by todays standard would just be a garbage quality browser game).
Game Designers don't just make MMO's he is talking about the industry as a whole, and if you believe it's that devoid of talent you must have been living under a rock.
The guys he mentions like molyneux are legends but they have not produced anything remotely good for a generation of gaming now. That XBLA Fable game really pushed the boundaries of gaming eh?
He didnt say its DEVIOD of talen, nor did I. He listed SOME people he believes are great designers and he is correct, there are a LOT of really bad game makers out there and the industry agrees with him by how many games dont do well, get average or lower ratings and just plain do nothing for the industry other than add yet another game to the market.
Now throw in how many quality companies are being bought out by major corporations and are being trashed...and taadaa!
If you only look at AAA games then this is probably true, some of the best games of the last few years have been from small studios or individual guys with the vision and drive to do something awesome.
It's also funny to read people saying that Blizzard are devoid of talent because look at Starcraft it's just more of the same. Garriots next game is just him going back to his happy place and making a sort of MMO that looks like its 2001.
He didnt say its DEVIOD of talent, nor did I. He listed SOME people he believes are great designers and he is correct, there are a LOT of really bad game makers out there and the industry agrees with him by how many games dont do well, get average or lower ratings and just plain do nothing for the industry other than add yet another game to the market.
Now throw in how many quality companies are being bought out by major corporations and are being trashed...and taadaa!
If you only look at AAA games then this is probably true, some of the best games of the last few years have been from small studios or individual guys with the vision and drive to do something awesome.
Seriously, is this site filled with people that like to argue for the sake of arguing? Read the underlined in what you quoted. One of the best indie games released in the last 10 years is Mount and Blade, so dont think I dont know about small studios or discount them. There was nothing said to hint at it being done.
I can't disagree with him more. Glad I decided not to fund him. We don't need more assholes in the industry. He should have stayed in his hole of shame after Tabula Rasa.
He didnt say its DEVIOD of talent, nor did I. He listed SOME people he believes are great designers and he is correct, there are a LOT of really bad game makers out there and the industry agrees with him by how many games dont do well, get average or lower ratings and just plain do nothing for the industry other than add yet another game to the market.
Now throw in how many quality companies are being bought out by major corporations and are being trashed...and taadaa!
If you only look at AAA games then this is probably true, some of the best games of the last few years have been from small studios or individual guys with the vision and drive to do something awesome.
Seriously, is this site filled with people that like to argue for the sake of arguing? Read the underlined in what you quoted. One of the best indie games released in the last 10 years is Mount and Blade, so dont think I dont know about small studios or discount them. There was nothing said to hint at it being done.
Are you really a member here and asking this question? MMORPG.com forums are PvP forums.
Richard is good at the story and lore, for him to claim he has any ability to innovate is silly. Tabula Rasa was his worst mistake and that was dead in beta/alpha. A good deal of us in that beta just laughed at the horrible game-play and called it before it even released.
Obviously the Ultima series was "good", I'll never call it amazing or great as I don't believe it is. The primary thing that made UO great was the ability to touch, move, interact with almost everything in the world in some way.
Space must have scrambled his brain beause he simply isn't on the cutting edge of games anymore and his kick-starter is proof. Yeah he got a bunch of funding for a small indie game, but he won't be returning to prime-time because he lacks the innovation and skill set to meet today's expectations.
You can hate Lord British for all you want folks, but you can't dispute what he said in this article.
Its blunt, arrogant and honest, but its also completely true and sums up last decade of mainstream gaming REAL WELL.
And I'll judge his game when it comes out - I loved everything in Ultima franchise and even liked Tabula Rasa(which had one problem - it was released about a year too early imo), so I am willing to give him a chance, no matter his personality
# A GRIM, ODD, ARCANE SKY # ANY GOD, I MARK SACRED # A MASKED CRY ADORING # A DREAMY, SICK DRAGON
I suspect that RG might be speaking the truth but without the media savvy to realise that his words will be taken in some parts out of context and in other ways for the arrogance that they show. I mean this man does have some delusions of grandeur, he changed his name recently to add "De Cayeux" to the end of his name. Bless him he really does want to live in a medieval world though he also paid to go into space which I am sure many would do if they could afford it.
There is truth in the core of his words many of the early designers had been playing PnP rpg's for many years had lived with visions and story creation so that by the time they were making games for computers they were already steeped in a system of creation, I suspect that many of the newer generation grow up playing computer games and perhaps dreaming of what they would like to do but that is very different from actually creating something, it is playing someone elses ideas. To the extent many of the new young designers do not go through the apprenticeship of World and story design that the old designers went through.
Perhaps there needs to be a resurgence of PnP rpg's.
Do what thou wilt, and harm ye none. - Witches Rede
Seriously, is this site filled with people that like to argue for the sake of arguing? Read the underlined in what you quoted. One of the best indie games released in the last 10 years is Mount and Blade, so dont think I dont know about small studios or discount them. There was nothing said to hint at it being done.
Are you really a member here and asking this question? MMORPG.com forums are PvP forums.
Actually no I didnt know, im new...guess I better go gear up.
Richard is good at the story and lore, for him to claim he has any ability to innovate is silly. Tabula Rasa was his worst mistake and that was dead in beta/alpha. A good deal of us in that beta just laughed at the horrible game-play and called it before it even released.
1. You just said Garriott is not innovative based on ONE game and a game that was far different than any other MMO at the time just because you didnt like it?!?!
not that I need to continue but...
2. This big egotistical man that as you say, is good at story and lore is having TRACY HICKMAN writing the story for the new game...yeah...Hickman the best selling author...the man behind a ton of best selling Drangonlance novels and the Death Gate Cycle series.
You just proved the point...people dont judge a game based on its ideas...they base it on if they "like" it or not...and that is why the genre has been stagnant with the same old crap for years now.
I suspect that RG might be speaking the truth but without the media savvy to realise that his words will be taken in some parts out of context and in other ways for the arrogance that they show. I mean this man does have some delusions of grandeur, he changed his name recently to add "De Cayeux" to the end of his name. Bless him he really does want to live in a medieval world though he also paid to go into space which I am sure many would do if they could afford it.
There is truth in the core of his words many of the early designers had been playing PnP rpg's for many years had lived with visions and story creation so that by the time they were making games for computers they were already steeped in a system of creation, I suspect that many of the newer generation grow up playing computer games and perhaps dreaming of what they would like to do but that is very different from actually creating something, it is playing someone elses ideas. To the extent many of the new young designers do not go through the apprenticeship of World and story design that the old designers went through.
Perhaps there needs to be a resurgence of PnP rpg's.
I have worked in the games indsutry and currently work in a University that offers games courses. If you think that all they get taught is how to mimic other peoples ideas you are mistaken. They study everything AAA games, board games, pen and paper, pinball, foosball, mobile games. There are two 48 hour game jams every year, students are encouraged to work over the summer on their own games and given the resources to do it. They study peoples responses to games, they work with every type of control scheme you can imagine including full 3d and VR.
It's not like they come in and are thown a role, you are a programmer, you are an artist. If the person has the drive to become a designer they have to be aware and competent in every role and the tools are there. There are many people that are excelling just because they aren't churning out AAA games every year doesn't mean they don't exist.
The people I saw developing the game I worked on were some of the most talented people I have ever worked beside with drive and passion to be the best in their field.
Seriously, is this site filled with people that like to argue for the sake of arguing? Read the underlined in what you quoted. One of the best indie games released in the last 10 years is Mount and Blade, so dont think I dont know about small studios or discount them. There was nothing said to hint at it being done.
Are you really a member here and asking this question? MMORPG.com forums are PvP forums.
Actually no I didnt know, im new...guess I better go gear up.
@Slick Shoes: Thank you for that information I had no idea, that such University courses existed. May I ask if there are many such courses or are you "the exception that proves the rule"? As a long time GM/Player/gamer and all round dreamer I have long had ideas, but sadly absolutely no talent when it comes to computers. Shame really, as I have had an idea bouncing around inside my head for ages. Ah well it shall probably have to remain locked inside until I take it to my grave.
Do what thou wilt, and harm ye none. - Witches Rede
Originally posted by Hekate27 @Slick Shoes: Thank you for that information I had no idea, that such University courses existed. May I ask if there are many such courses or are you "the exception that proves the rule"? As a long time GM/Player/gamer and all round dreamer I have long had ideas, but sadly absolutely no talent when it comes to computers. Shame really, as I have had an idea bouncing around inside my head for ages. Ah well it shall probably have to remain locked inside until I take it to my grave.
Courses like that have been around for quite a few years now, can't say that their really that comprehensive, but they probably do give you a reasonable grounding in the subject. If you look upon them as a 'starting point' then thats probably close enough, creative talent in itself is probably something that can't be taught however, a bit like art, you can teach someone to draw, but you can't teach them to create a work of art.
This coming from the guy who designed Tabala Rasa? Pot, meet kettle.
One bad game does not make the guy a Hypocrite or poor designer. Would you care to show the world your wonderful portfolio of games that you have created from scratch just as this man has?
Originally posted by BadSpock You know, as arrogant as it sounds he is probably right.
Agree, look at all the current MMO's, not much great design. Just look at SWTOR for example, what a travesty for all that money spent. Can't say much good about the up and coming ones either although some of the indie's could change that. You have to lay the blame on poor design throughout.
99% of design money goes on "Shiny" ...rest goes in gameplay and content.
I mean, seriously, what are some of the "best" games out right now?
How many of them are truly original and compelling games with unique gameplay and how many are rehashes with better GFX and a couple of cool tweaks here and there?
Right now I'm playing Skyrim, which is an amazing game - but very little difference in gameplay system than Oblivion or Morrowind in the end.
And StarCraft II - Heart of the Swarm - which is an amazing game - but very little difference in gameplay system than Starcraft 1 or Warcraft III etc.
And also Path of Exile - which is an amazing game - but very little difference in gameplay system than Diablo or Torchlight etc.
And Sim5 - which is full of issues, but still an amazing game - but very little difference in gameplay system than any other Sim City game or other such city builder.
The most "unique" and innovative game I'm playing at the moment is Minecraft - and it's SO simple. Indie devs are usually just as bad as the big boys - they just have less money so it's even WORSE of gameplay, but every once in a while you get a lightning strike amazing game and dev like Minecraft.
In my book, if a game is fun or even amazing, then the developers have done their job. Doesn't matter if it's a rehash of games before it or not. It takes a special developer to achieve that, just like it would take a special developer to achieve that using new mechanisms and new technologies. Crappy new material is no better than crappy old material.
Comments
Now then...please list all the "good" MMOs made over the last 10 years and I will then provide you with a list 10x as long with the bad ones. That is what he is touching on.
He's touching on his own (must ... resist) ego, nothing more. We'll see how he deals with the gaming community that exists now as opposed to the gaming community that existed then. It's a very different world. We've all seen where blind ego leads games these days ... if his first re-steps are any indication, I feel sorry for his investors.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Game Designers don't just make MMO's he is talking about the industry as a whole, and if you believe it's that devoid of talent you must have been living under a rock.
The guys he mentions like molyneux are legends but they have not produced anything remotely good for a generation of gaming now. That XBLA Fable game really pushed the boundaries of gaming eh?
It already does. UO was a great game and Tabula Rasa was a bad one...however, Tabula Rasa was at least innovative and very different from UO which shows he is a good designer, coming up with new ideas and not stuck in the past like ooh...say, everyone from DaoC which cant seem to get out of that tiny little box they created 13 years ago.
Once upon a time....
He didnt say its DEVIOD of talen, nor did I. He listed SOME people he believes are great designers and he is correct, there are a LOT of really bad game makers out there and the industry agrees with him by how many games dont do well, get average or lower ratings and just plain do nothing for the industry other than add yet another game to the market.
Now throw in how many quality companies are being bought out by major corporations and are being trashed...and taadaa!
1. He's right.
2. He's one of them.
3. He should just stick to what he knows best, rehashing the only half decent game he's ever made. (which by todays standard would just be a garbage quality browser game).
If you only look at AAA games then this is probably true, some of the best games of the last few years have been from small studios or individual guys with the vision and drive to do something awesome.
Woohoo BRAVO!!!
I've always said this myself this whole new generation of " Tech School " game designers are total and complete morons.
They learn to code the exact same way from the exact same textbooks, and the exact same game design software.
They have zero creativity and even less problem solving ability, and they almost never try and build the better mousetrap.
LOL and from reading the comments here, it is a bit obvious that we have some of those tech school designers among our posters.
Seriously, is this site filled with people that like to argue for the sake of arguing? Read the underlined in what you quoted. One of the best indie games released in the last 10 years is Mount and Blade, so dont think I dont know about small studios or discount them. There was nothing said to hint at it being done.
Are you really a member here and asking this question? MMORPG.com forums are PvP forums.
Richard is good at the story and lore, for him to claim he has any ability to innovate is silly. Tabula Rasa was his worst mistake and that was dead in beta/alpha. A good deal of us in that beta just laughed at the horrible game-play and called it before it even released.
Obviously the Ultima series was "good", I'll never call it amazing or great as I don't believe it is. The primary thing that made UO great was the ability to touch, move, interact with almost everything in the world in some way.
Space must have scrambled his brain beause he simply isn't on the cutting edge of games anymore and his kick-starter is proof. Yeah he got a bunch of funding for a small indie game, but he won't be returning to prime-time because he lacks the innovation and skill set to meet today's expectations.
You can hate Lord British for all you want folks, but you can't dispute what he said in this article.
Its blunt, arrogant and honest, but its also completely true and sums up last decade of mainstream gaming REAL WELL.
And I'll judge his game when it comes out - I loved everything in Ultima franchise and even liked Tabula Rasa(which had one problem - it was released about a year too early imo), so I am willing to give him a chance, no matter his personality
# A GRIM, ODD, ARCANE SKY
# ANY GOD, I MARK SACRED
# A MASKED CRY ADORING
# A DREAMY, SICK DRAGON
I suspect that RG might be speaking the truth but without the media savvy to realise that his words will be taken in some parts out of context and in other ways for the arrogance that they show. I mean this man does have some delusions of grandeur, he changed his name recently to add "De Cayeux" to the end of his name. Bless him he really does want to live in a medieval world though he also paid to go into space which I am sure many would do if they could afford it.
There is truth in the core of his words many of the early designers had been playing PnP rpg's for many years had lived with visions and story creation so that by the time they were making games for computers they were already steeped in a system of creation, I suspect that many of the newer generation grow up playing computer games and perhaps dreaming of what they would like to do but that is very different from actually creating something, it is playing someone elses ideas. To the extent many of the new young designers do not go through the apprenticeship of World and story design that the old designers went through.
Perhaps there needs to be a resurgence of PnP rpg's.
Do what thou wilt, and harm ye none. - Witches Rede
Actually no I didnt know, im new...guess I better go gear up.
1. You just said Garriott is not innovative based on ONE game and a game that was far different than any other MMO at the time just because you didnt like it?!?!
not that I need to continue but...
2. This big egotistical man that as you say, is good at story and lore is having TRACY HICKMAN writing the story for the new game...yeah...Hickman the best selling author...the man behind a ton of best selling Drangonlance novels and the Death Gate Cycle series.
You just proved the point...people dont judge a game based on its ideas...they base it on if they "like" it or not...and that is why the genre has been stagnant with the same old crap for years now.
I have worked in the games indsutry and currently work in a University that offers games courses. If you think that all they get taught is how to mimic other peoples ideas you are mistaken. They study everything AAA games, board games, pen and paper, pinball, foosball, mobile games. There are two 48 hour game jams every year, students are encouraged to work over the summer on their own games and given the resources to do it. They study peoples responses to games, they work with every type of control scheme you can imagine including full 3d and VR.
It's not like they come in and are thown a role, you are a programmer, you are an artist. If the person has the drive to become a designer they have to be aware and competent in every role and the tools are there. There are many people that are excelling just because they aren't churning out AAA games every year doesn't mean they don't exist.
The people I saw developing the game I worked on were some of the most talented people I have ever worked beside with drive and passion to be the best in their field.
Thank you for taking over my thread.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/379805/Richard-Garriott-I-think-most-game-designers-really-just-suck.html
The other way around this would have been deleted as duplicate topic.
I recommend a good flame suit!
Do what thou wilt, and harm ye none. - Witches Rede
Courses like that have been around for quite a few years now, can't say that their really that comprehensive, but they probably do give you a reasonable grounding in the subject. If you look upon them as a 'starting point' then thats probably close enough, creative talent in itself is probably something that can't be taught however, a bit like art, you can teach someone to draw, but you can't teach them to create a work of art.
One bad game does not make the guy a Hypocrite or poor designer. Would you care to show the world your wonderful portfolio of games that you have created from scratch just as this man has?
In my book, if a game is fun or even amazing, then the developers have done their job. Doesn't matter if it's a rehash of games before it or not. It takes a special developer to achieve that, just like it would take a special developer to achieve that using new mechanisms and new technologies. Crappy new material is no better than crappy old material.