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Shroud of the Avatar: Garriott Opines: 'Most game designers really just suck.'

SBFordSBFord Associate Editor - News ManagerThe Land of AZPosts: 16,613MMORPG.COM Staff Uncommon

In a new interview at PC Gamer, Richard Garriott has revealed that he believes "most game designers really just suck." He goes on to say that the reason for this is due to a lack of quality education in awesome game design and a lack of fundamental cross-job training.

“So we’re leaning on a lot of designers who get that job because they’re not qualified for the other jobs, rather than that they are really strongly qualified as a designer. It’s really hard to go to school to be a good designer.”

Read the full article at the link above.

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Associate Editor: MMORPG.com
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Comments

  • TalonsinTalonsin Posts: 1,470Member Uncommon

    This coming from the guy who designed Tabala Rasa?  Pot, meet kettle.

     

  • RoxtarrRoxtarr Freeland, MI, MIPosts: 1,122Member
    This totally turned me off. There's no need to bash the industry in order to bolster your own little game. What a sorry and sad attitude.

    If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
    image

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    You know, as arrogant as it sounds he is probably right.
  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    Tabula Rasa was something great and special - at first - but after RG left the post-launch management of the game ruined it.
    It had so much potential, to be a truly dynamic virtual world with a unique and interesting systems - but they wow'd it up post launch instead of playing to the games strengths.
  • ThaneThane berlinPosts: 2,232Member Uncommon

    i have no problem with arrogance.

     

    let's see if his skills are as good as he thinks, or if he just was the right man at the right time and the right place for the first RPGs to happen.

    he surely doesn't set his goals low tho.

     

     

    ps: and obviously he IS right. just check the latest mmos. why did you think the term "WoW clone" came up, because those designers come up with something new every time or because we are in the world of clonecraft :)

     

    it was basically quite easy to make the "first" DnD games on a computer. the frameset was there, you just had to come up with a good storry, and everyone who has been a GM for PnP games knows that's possible.

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • uller30uller30 MILWAUKEE, WIPosts: 114Member
    Talk about an out of touch old ass hat. I mean what has he done but kill his own games become some price to bash the industry he helped start and then is stuck in 1995. Come on you old coot, just take your rolyity checks and go fish. Move the middle what is he doing to move the needle. Saw his whole new mm/mmo and I said so its like D2 and stuff. NEXT
  • CarparaCarpara VolketswilPosts: 3Member
    Now he put himself into a great position. If his game will succeed, he's great. If it fails, he sucks. Then we all know...
  • DracondisDracondis Reston, VAPosts: 176Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    You know, as arrogant as it sounds he is probably right.

    He is right.  You can't go to school to be a game designer.  YOu can go for programming, you can go for art, music, etc, but you can't learn to be a designer.  There is no degree program for Game Design.  When I went to school for it, they put me in a programming program instead and told me I'd be more employable as a programmer than a designer because anyone could be a designer, so they never hired them from the outside.

    I hated that school.

    Originally posted by Thane

    i have no problem with arrogance.

    ps: and obviously he IS right. just check the latest mmos. why did you think the term "WoW clone" came up, because those designers come up with something new every time or because we are in the world of clonecraft :)

    it was basically quite easy to make the "first" DnD games on a computer. the frameset was there, you just had to come up with a good storry, and everyone who has been a GM for PnP games knows that's possible.

    I know that it's not as easy as you think.  Finding a good GM/DM/ST/etc is rough, because good stories don't just happen.  You have to have vision, and you have to have skill at wordcraft.  For a GM, you also have to have some level of technical expertise with the system you're running.  Thast isn't so with an MMO.  A Game Designer just has to have a story and a vision, and if he can communicate that to his team, they can program it.  He has to be the framework, the broad outline, and the details that others use to build a game.

     
  • ThaneThane berlinPosts: 2,232Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by uller30
    Talk about an out of touch old ass hat. I mean what has he done but kill his own games become some price to bash the industry he helped start and then is stuck in 1995. Come on you old coot, just take your rolyity checks and go fish. Move the middle what is he doing to move the needle. Saw his whole new mm/mmo and I said so its like D2 and stuff. NEXT

    you saw his new game?

    now that's impressive. thought he was still working on it.

     

    damn i want that time machine of yours!

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • uller30uller30 MILWAUKEE, WIPosts: 114Member
    @thane
    While it looks interesting I don't want two characters to level or just one for the game. I would ant 1 toon not a separation of the two. There is a difference from arrogance and confidence he is currently are oven in his statement. Yes not all are able to be designers but at the time the industry was wow. WOW did good really good and people liked that game play fast forward 8 years, it's he action idea forcabt you dodge jump and counter moves now. While wow is strong still game devs are moving from Rhodes ideas slowly to a more players need to really pay attention GW2 ideas. I play over games and I'm used to jump from the note/hidden mob wow attacks.

    The reason his stament is him Bering a raging dick is how do you make better devs? It does not start from they all suck but me, rather they suck and I wan to help new people and existing creators get better. True there are little to no schooling for devs but from mentors. I just could not sit and take hi seriously for his blatant attitude if all other mmos developed sine ultimate and wow we're bad. What still going after 8+ years , eve online, eq, flufy, guild wars franchise. I just though he was better than his ass hat statements.
  • uller30uller30 MILWAUKEE, WIPosts: 114Member
    I hate my phone :( text it right and stupid auto correct.
  • kishekishe aitooPosts: 1,978Member Uncommon

    Garriot is great lore designer but it really takes special type of developers to make his visions in to reality.

    Reason why Origin games were so great was that Garriot had great team of likeminded people who had the skills and knoweledge to turn his vision in to a game.

    Tabula Rasa was doomed from the moment NCSoft told them to scrap the Fantasy bits from the already beta ready MMO and go with Scifi instead (without giving them much more development time)

  • WightyWighty Westbury, NYPosts: 664Member Uncommon

    As a long time fan of Ultima (Origin Systems) having played everything up to and including his Original Alkabeth, as someone who is familiar with his work in comparison to modern game development in terms of complexity and scope he is absolutely correct...

     

    Seems most developers are just trrying to "reskin" whats hot in the market instead of whats in their heart...

     

    There is a resurgance of old school developers that are now coming out of hibernation, guys like Brian Fargo and Chris Roberts, who have appeared to lay dormany for years but are responsible for some of the greatest games of their era and helped shape the future of gaming...

     

    I see Garriot as one of these forefathers and really hope he has it in him to do something great.... He is a bit of a kook, and I really hope he is not going to do to the modern "revisioned Ultima" what George Lucas did to the new Starwars...

     

    If he sticks to his original vision with some modern flavor it will be awesome, however if he decides to change the secret sauce to something different and throw some Jar Jar Binks crap in there... well we got a lemon on our hands...

    What are your other Hobbies?

    Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...

  • OzmodanOzmodan Hilliard, OHPosts: 7,187Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    You know, as arrogant as it sounds he is probably right.

    Agree, look at all the current MMO's, not much great design.  Just look at SWTOR for example, what a travesty for all that money spent.  Can't say much good about the up and coming ones either although some of the indie's could change that.  You have to lay the blame on poor design throughout.  

  • kishekishe aitooPosts: 1,978Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ozmodan
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    You know, as arrogant as it sounds he is probably right.

    Agree, look at all the current MMO's, not much great design.  Just look at SWTOR for example, what a travesty for all that money spent.  Can't say much good about the up and coming ones either although some of the indie's could change that.  You have to lay the blame on poor design throughout.  

     

    99% of design money goes on "Shiny" ...rest goes in gameplay and content.

     

     

  • JasonJJasonJ New Port Richey, FLPosts: 395Member
    Originally posted by uller30
    Talk about an out of touch old ass hat. I mean what has he done but kill his own games become some price to bash the industry he helped start and then is stuck in 1995. Come on you old coot, just take your rolyity checks and go fish. Move the middle what is he doing to move the needle. Saw his whole new mm/mmo and I said so its like D2 and stuff. NEXT

     Wait. So, the guy that takes text based RPGs and makes the first graphics based RPG which the entire genre was based on for 15 YEARS with his innovations...then pushes the MMO genre to the forefront with his first MMO who then creates the first MMO based shooter which current ones take from...is out of touch?

    lol...

    Seriously, the guy keeps making DIFFERENT types games.

    Want to talk about out of touch, lets talk about the makers of DaoC2...erm I mean TESO and CU that seem to think DaoCs little box is still a good idea to base games off of, a box so small that other companies chose THAT part of the game not to mimmick.

  • azmundaiazmundai St Louis, MOPosts: 1,417Member

    such arrogance

    just look at his kickstarter : "I ARE MADE TEH ULTIMAZ!!! PAY ME NOAW!!!" what a tool. I realize it's just pre-production footage, but the gameplay footage in that kickstarter is what sucks.

    LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
    I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    Originally posted by kishe
    Originally posted by Ozmodan
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    You know, as arrogant as it sounds he is probably right.

    Agree, look at all the current MMO's, not much great design.  Just look at SWTOR for example, what a travesty for all that money spent.  Can't say much good about the up and coming ones either although some of the indie's could change that.  You have to lay the blame on poor design throughout.  

    99% of design money goes on "Shiny" ...rest goes in gameplay and content.

    I mean, seriously, what are some of the "best" games out right now?

    How many of them are truly original and compelling games with unique gameplay and how many are rehashes with better GFX and a couple of cool tweaks here and there?

    Right now I'm playing Skyrim, which is an amazing game - but very little difference in gameplay system than Oblivion or Morrowind in the end.

    And StarCraft II - Heart of the Swarm - which is an amazing game - but very little difference in gameplay system than Starcraft 1 or Warcraft III etc.

    And also Path of Exile - which is an amazing game - but very little difference in gameplay system than Diablo or Torchlight etc.

    And Sim5 - which is full of issues, but still an amazing game - but very little difference in gameplay system than any other Sim City game or other such city builder.

    The most "unique" and innovative game I'm playing at the moment is Minecraft - and it's SO simple. Indie devs are usually just as bad as the big boys - they just have less money so it's even WORSE of gameplay, but every once in a while you get a lightning strike amazing game and dev like Minecraft.

  • Flaming_MMOFlaming_MMO Jefferson, GAPosts: 137Member
    Richard Garriot has always reminded me of a combination of Chris Elliot (Get A Life, Eagleheart etc) and ex pitcher John Smoltz.
  • DauzqulDauzqul Detroit, MIPosts: 1,405Member Uncommon
    Richard Garriot's "Everyone else sucks"
  • SlickShoesSlickShoes EdinburghPosts: 1,037Member Uncommon

    To be a competent programmer, artist, designer when he started making games was a lot easier than it is now.

    Some indie game devs are all of these things and I think he is overlooking some great talent. AAA devs specialize because the games are so complex, you want a GREAT artist you dont want an artist that is OK and can do a bit of programming and has some alright design ideas too.

    I think the guys he lists as great developers shows how out of touch he really is, these guys havent released a good game in over 10 years.

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  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    Garriott Opines: 'Most game designers really just suck.'

    <snark> Well, he would certainly know. What kind of bars do these guys go to? </ping>

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • JasonJJasonJ New Port Richey, FLPosts: 395Member
    Originally posted by SlickShoes

    I think the guys he lists as great developers shows how out of touch he really is, these guys havent released a good game in over 10 years.

     Define "good".

    Company makes a game with zero that is new.

    Company makes a game with many new innovative ideas.

    Both can be good or bad but do you lend weight to the new ideas over the old?

    A great game with no new ideas does nothing to push gameplay forward...a bad or bland game with a ton of new ideas will be built on in the future pushing gaming to new places.

    Everyone he listed as great developers did just that, pushed gaming forward to where it is today.

    Now then...please list all the "good" MMOs made over the last 10 years and I will then provide you with a list 10x as long with the bad ones. That is what he is touching on.

  • VannorVannor YorkshirePosts: 2,970Member Uncommon

    Hmm not a good attitude.

    I know plenty of people that have done game design degrees and come up with some fantastic stuff. You can't learn to be a designer? That's rediculous. Studying is all about seeing, adapting, copying, learning, experiencing. The more you do something, the better you get at it. The more ideas that are thrown at you, the more you know what is possible, what works and what doesn't. Sure, creative degrees arn't the same as more text book ones but people on them benefit from the experience of lots of different personalities, ideas and opinions working towards similar goals on lots of different projects. It's the best way to get a decent portfolio and get some proper experience in industry situations.. and possibly placements or internships. There's just a hell of a lot of competition these days. Back when Garriott was nerding on D&D and making his first computer rpgs the industry was about 1/1000th the size it is now (yes, I'm just throwing a factless number out there but you should get my point).

    This guy is trying to appeal to the old-school loving 'haters' out there. Vocal on the internet, minor in the grand scheme of things.

    If this game turns out to be total turd, he's going to look very very stupid. Confidence is a good thing, arrogance isn't.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by JasonJ
    Now then...please list all the "good" MMOs made over the last 10 years and I will then provide you with a list 10x as long with the bad ones. That is what he is touching on.

    Well, hang around long enough and RG's personal game creds will qualify for both parts of your list.

    Maybe he's got another stale idea or two hidden away in that notebook paper.

     

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

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