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Are you in favor of Battlegrounds?

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  • ZiftylrhavicZiftylrhavic GrenoblePosts: 222Member

    That's a good idea.

     

    This island would be the tutorial, and that's where you would find the only safe zone with the capital city, the safe zone would have straw mannequin to test your positional skills as well as low level mobs to fight against something fighting back before trying to go for the other players

  • AminitaAminita bolton landing, NYPosts: 8Member

    Sorry Zifty, 

    Dont  have the  time to go thru the  13  pages.. 

    Then again,  you  said  that  you  have  countered  my perspective  by your previous  post.. 

    I sure that your perspective is  better than mine.. 

     

     

  • sweetdigssweetdigs Washington, DCPosts: 196Member

    No.  Battlegrounds are artificial.  All PvP combat in CU should occur on the real battlefields.

    This isn't Arena PVP.

  • Niix_OzekNiix_Ozek Calgary, ABPosts: 397Member
    Originally posted by sweetdigs

    No.  Battlegrounds are artificial.  All PvP combat in CU should occur on the real battlefields.

    This isn't Arena PVP.

    I don't disagree, but i don't think you understand the concept of Battlegrounds people are talking about.

     

    daoc bg's were nothing close to arena pvp. They were real battlefields for lower level characters.

    I don't see it happening in a game where theres no level curve like daoc, but its possible to make work.

    Ozek - DAOC
    Niix - Other games that sucked

  • AminitaAminita bolton landing, NYPosts: 8Member

    Well,  went thru and  read  the  posts.. 

    Nope, dont think your perspective is any  better than mine Zifty..

    just  different. 

    I feel that a BG provides a place for a player  to enjoy rvr  at a slower  pace.. ther are times where Im just not 

    up for full scale rvr,  

    "Exploring' is not my idea of  fun  when I want to rvr. ...Hardly

    Also.. improving my fighting skills.. On a straw DUMMY ??  LOL..  Honestly  hope you  were kidding. ..

    BG's may not be Necessary,,,  but provide the player with a viable Alternative  to Big Boy  rvr. 

    Some times I Ski the soft GREEN trails,  other times I love the Double Black Diamonds.. 

    It come s down to having the  ability to Choose.. 

    I LIKE  being  able to CHOOSE.. 

     

     

  • TelondarielTelondariel Ottawa, ONPosts: 1,001Member
    Originally posted by Ziftylrhavic

    If you take the time to read my previous posts, you'll see i already countered these 3 argument

     

    There is one about the new players not being alone vs veteran

     

    There is one about the tutorial (that won't be handholding but teach the basics), and i can add than veteran will help complete the new player's knowledge

     

    There is one about how you can find a lot of ways to have quick fun (gave only 2 example, but i'm sure we can find more with a little thinking)

     

    Please read what has already been said before posting

    You posted opinion, not immutable fact.  Your opinion, on how you believe CU will play out and your views on if the BG's will work in that system.  This is a place to discuss ideas, not chastise and stifle because someone didn't pay attention to you.

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  • TelondarielTelondariel Ottawa, ONPosts: 1,001Member
    Originally posted by Aminita

    Well,  went thru and  read  the  posts.. 

    Nope, dont think your perspective is any  better than mine Zifty..

    just  different. 

    I feel that a BG provides a place for a player  to enjoy rvr  at a slower  pace.. ther are times where Im just not 

    up for full scale rvr,  

    "Exploring' is not my idea of  fun  when I want to rvr. ...Hardly

    Also.. improving my fighting skills.. On a straw DUMMY ??  LOL..  Honestly  hope you  were kidding. ..

    BG's may not be Necessary,,,  but provide the player with a viable Alternative  to Big Boy  rvr. 

    Some times I Ski the soft GREEN trails,  other times I love the Double Black Diamonds.. 

    It come s down to having the  ability to Choose.. 

    I LIKE  being  able to CHOOSE.. 

     

     

    ^^ A lot of it boils down to this:  OPTIONS.

     

    In DAoC, I certainly wasn't interested in the frontiers.  I wanted to RvR, just not in that scene.  The BG's were the perfect environment for me, and those that were like-minded.  It was a tighter map, not a huge vastness.  It was also a place of equality, in that people were roughly the same level and could only attain a limited couple RR's of minimal importance.  Every person has their own reason(s) why they went there, but the common element was that it was FUN

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  • ZiftylrhavicZiftylrhavic GrenoblePosts: 222Member

    Originally posted by Aminita

    Sorry Zifty, 

    Dont  have the  time to go thru the  13  pages.. 

    Then again,  you  said  that  you  have  countered  my perspective  by your previous  post.. 

    I sure that your perspective is  better than mine.. 

     

    First, i'm not Zifty, i'm Zift. The name was already taken so i added my second name.

     

    Second, i'm not saying than my perspective is better, i'm saying i already gave reasons and examples as to why your argument aren't valid.

     

    Originally posted by Aminita

    Well,  went thru and  read  the  posts.. 

    Nope, dont think your perspective is any  better than mine Zifty..

    just  different. 

    I feel that a BG provides a place for a player  to enjoy rvr  at a slower  pace.. ther are times where Im just not 

    up for full scale rvr,  

    "Exploring' is not my idea of  fun  when I want to rvr. ...Hardly

    Also.. improving my fighting skills.. On a straw DUMMY ??  LOL..  Honestly  hope you  were kidding. ..

    BG's may not be Necessary,,,  but provide the player with a viable Alternative  to Big Boy  rvr. 

    Some times I Ski the soft GREEN trails,  other times I love the Double Black Diamonds.. 

    It come s down to having the  ability to Choose.. 

    I LIKE  being  able to CHOOSE.. 

     

    Alright, about the smaller scale RvR, i talked about how you could do small Point Of Interest not interesting for a zerg, we could do the same for the groups, a POI that rewards only 4 players on each realm and block the progression of all the others that enter after that limit, with a warning message if it's already full. I know it must have a lot of downside, it's just a random thought. It's to show than the bgs aren't the only way to have that.

    Edit : Here will be the choices you want.

     

    Exploring will probably be more for when you want to take a break from RvR.

     

    Also, if bgs are for quick action, here comes another problem :

    "When you die, and you will die; don’t expect to simply pop back up and get right back in the fight. It is going to be a lot more complicated than that. IMO, that gameplay style embodies some of the problems with many modern MMOs, death without consequence, “easy in” and “easy out” RvR, 6-year old kids’ soccer match, etc. RvR combat must be fun, challenging, exciting and losing must hurt a bit or it means nothing."

    (http://citystateentertainment.com/2013/02/foundational-principle-2-rvr-isnt-the-end-game-its-the-only-game/)

     

    This one of the reasons bgs probably won't be in CU.

     

    About the straw dummy, if you ever go take a stroll by the border keeps on DAoC you'll see people hitting their defenseless bots and then healing them.

    A straw dummy will let you hit as long as you want the same target without worrying about killing it or dying, and test a lot of different skill combinations and compare them, their efficacity when used with other skills, testing the range of spells or melee hit, the duration of the figth until you lose all your endurance, the rate of procs and crits, and surely more other things. Maybe a new player wouldn't make full use of it and we should put some in the main structures.

     

    Originally posted by Telondariel

    You posted opinion, not immutable fact.  Your opinion, on how you believe CU will play out and your views on if the BG's will work in that system.  This is a place to discuss ideas, not chastise and stifle because someone didn't pay attention to you.

    I never said i was stating immutable facts. And i indeed gave my opinions, but the difference with you is than i give reasons to have those opinions, and i'm not very pleased to read "We should add cars to move faster" when i just posted "there probably won't be any cars because CU will take place in a medieval universe"

  • AminitaAminita bolton landing, NYPosts: 8Member

    Of course Zift.. 

    Not valid to your reality.. 

    i understand  that. 

    And I accept that. 

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon

    This is harsh but it's how I feel. If you want instanced PVP then look into the numerous games that feature it.

  • ZiftylrhavicZiftylrhavic GrenoblePosts: 222Member
    Originally posted by Aminita

    Of course Zift.. 

    Not valid to your reality.. 

    i understand  that. 

    And I accept that. 

    Then tell me why in your reality my arguments and examples aren't valid.

     

    If you can't find them then ask me and i will take the time to spell them again for you.

  • zekuelzekuel portage, INPosts: 38Member
    I'm reading two veiws on BG's. 1 is that they are not needed because we assume there is no level system that all skills are gained by killing other players. 2 that new players can not compete. I think having non instant BG's is possible and even practical. Instead of having /XP off why not just let players have multiple or scaled up builds. Build 1 1-1,000,000XP; continuation of build 1,000,001-2,000,000XP; continuation of build 2,000,001-3,000,000XP. You could be a higher level(XP) player and still go back and log into lower level XP battlegrounds with a lower XP character build. This way you can still group with newbies and alts to help them progress and also earn lower amounts of XP for when your in world (no limit XP zone). This could give the best of both worlds for all players. Also since all players would still be able to play in zones you won't have population decrease in the BG's and you can also make them have a smaller % of world impact (mini relics).
  • zekuelzekuel portage, INPosts: 38Member
    To further this idea you can also ahve elite battle grounds for higher XP players for later expasions of the game. You could have a BG that scales up XP for the top 10% of players and then top 5%. So you can have a BG where the minimum requirement to enter it keeps going up and the elite can enter for harder but more XP rewarding experience.
  • TineaTinea North Olmsted, OHPosts: 80Member Uncommon

    My take on battlegrounds in a game with open world or at least large scale PvP / RvR is that battlegrounds should not give significant rewards so that they don't detract from the main fight (hello, WAR (at least at launch)).

    I would be interested in a battleground based on gear level rather than player level (or realm rank).  It would be interesting if you put on "plain" gear with no bonuses to get into one BG (or the BG strips you of all bonuses while on the map).  This way starting characters would only have access to the lower level gear BGs, but it may be just as fun (if not more) than the big shiny gear fights.  I know the goal is not to make gear an automatic "I win" button, but let's face it, it will have some effect on gameplay.  It seems that this would be feasible if there are no real levels to the game.  The downside is that you need to go gear grinding to "advance" to another BG, though this might promote mid-level crafting of gear more (until the economy inflates).

    This was just an idea I thought of while reading the different posts in this thread.  It is by no means fully thought out, so be kind when stomping on the idea and grinding it into the ground with your heel.  (Hehe, I spelled that "heal" at first... that's some harsh healing.)

    Again, I'm not agaist BGs as a distraction, especially if you can't spend all night storming the castle.  Just don't make it as rewarding as real RvR.

  • drakon3drakon3 Liberty Lake, WAPosts: 114Member
    Originally posted by Xobdnas

    This is harsh but it's how I feel. If you want instanced PVP then look into the numerous games that feature it.

    Why does this misconception persist?  I don't think ANYONE wants instanced BG's.

  • AminitaAminita bolton landing, NYPosts: 8Member

    It  all comes down to what each of  us enjoys. 

    We can  each  say things that , in our own minds make us RIGHT,  but

    this is not about being RIGHT ,,  this about  how each of us  FEEL 

    about the  BGs as an option in a  game. 

    This  is  NOT a discussion  that you have to WIN... 

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    On a  side  note, people that  think they can improve thier  fighting skills 

    by the use of a  practice dummy , those people  play  casters ...  :)

     

  • dynamicipftwdynamicipftw Arrow, ALPosts: 207Member
    This thread is hilarious. We are almost at 150 replies and people still think we are talking about WoW style BGs.
  • MasahikoKobeMasahikoKobe Plantation, FLPosts: 51Member
    Originally posted by drakon3
    Originally posted by Xobdnas

    This is harsh but it's how I feel. If you want instanced PVP then look into the numerous games that feature it.

    Why does this misconception persist?  I don't think ANYONE wants instanced BG's.

    Technically Thid was an instanced battleground. While it persisted forever it was in its own little bubble that was seprate from the rest of the game.

    Unfortunatly people say instance and they think that it has to be 3-4 thids where its 20v20v20. The wow curse i suppose.

  • AminitaAminita bolton landing, NYPosts: 8Member

    Interesting...

    My concept of a BG..

     is  that  of  the type of   BGs in  DAOC.. 

  • drakon3drakon3 Liberty Lake, WAPosts: 114Member
    Originally posted by MasahikoKobe

    Technically Thid was an instanced battleground. While it persisted forever it was in its own little bubble that was seprate from the rest of the game.

    Unfortunatly people say instance and they think that it has to be 3-4 thids where its 20v20v20. The wow curse i suppose.

     

    I disagree.  Using that logic NF was technically an instance then since you had to zone in and it was "seperate" from the rest of the world.  There was only ONE "instance" of Thidranki, thus that disqualifies it right there.  An "instance" is where you are able to create multiple versions of the same zone to facilitate some gameplay mechanic. 

  • ZiftylrhavicZiftylrhavic GrenoblePosts: 222Member

    Originally posted by Aminita

    It  all comes down to what each of  us enjoys. 

    We can  each  say things that , in our own minds make us RIGHT,  but

    this is not about being RIGHT ,,  this about  how each of us  FEEL 

    about the  BGs as an option in a  game. 

    This  is  NOT a discussion  that you have to WIN... 

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    On a  side  note, people that  think they can improve thier  fighting skills 

    by the use of a  practice dummy , those people  play  casters ...  :)

    If it's not about giving argument for and against bgs, and just say "i loved it" or "i didn't love it", then what's the point of the topic? Aren't we here to determine if the bgs would make the game better?

    As i already said, i really liked bgs in DAoC, but there is no need to use them here, because  the game mechanics given by the foundationnal principles already give some ways to get around them.

    And i'm not trying to win, if i was i would have thought about invalidating arguments against the bgs. I would probably have attained the same conclusion, but i wouldn't have posted it.

     

     

    About the dummies, it may not be obvious to you, but to somebody new to this type of game being able to test how things work, without having something attacking you and thus putting pressure on you, is something appreciated. Why do you think there are still dummies in DAoC tutorial?

    Also, i already explained than even a veteran would find a use to a dummy, and to give a new example to the many ones i detailed before, it can be used to calculate the damage variance of your attacks, and then compare if it's better to train a skill higher or stop at that level. Although, as respecing will be limited, it won't be of as much use.

     

    Originally posted by dynamicipftw
    This thread is hilarious. We are almost at 150 replies and people still think we are talking about WoW style BGs.

    Well, if people took the time to read what's been said before i'm sure it wouldn't be the case...

     

  • TamanousTamanous Edmonton, ABPosts: 2,125Member Uncommon

    100% not required in true RVR games.

     

    I totally seeing them cave though and putting them in as the majority of the player base now are cuddled little cry babies wanting mini-games seperate from immersive open worlds.

     

    I know it is a bad example for these boards but in recently in Swtor the Gree event was added which offered a whopping 2 open world pvp quests (Just 2 ... ONLY 2 ... of the hundreds of pve quests in game they added TWO DAMN PVP quests) and the population went BATSHITCRAZYBIATCHS over it.

     

    The end result? It is in fact DAMN FUN! Just a small little portion of the game that offers old school style pvp. In fact there is very little pvp going on as, even though you can attack your own faction, very few attack their own side because they will get policed to death over and over if they do so and if you grief the other faction they group up and crush the gankers. When competing for the quest objectives those out of line and attacking are pounced on by both factions. When a real war breaks out it is never free for all ... players group, guildies are green to each other anyway and typically faction takes on faction or it's guild vs guild.

     

    THAT is pvp!!!! ... or at least a small little example of what it could be.

     

    Open world pvp (talking OLD school here) was all about the open world politics. It isn't mindless zergs and red is dead as large guilds battle to control who dominates regions and ultimately everyone is forces to follow the rules of the day or suffer for their choices. Real open world pvp has always been about this from AO, AC and the few games since. It was a magical thing bu todays precious little tulips feel as if the developers must protect them at all times unless in a mini-game with zero consequenses for losing and magically *POOF* back into the real game to continue their further segregated adventures pretending the game is an open play ground.

     

    When it comes to any instanced pvp, every person in an instance = another person NOT in the real open world game. They may as well be playing a Mario game on a Nintendo for the contribution they offer the overall game. Developers have to take that into consideration when deciding things like this. This happened in WAR where some pvp lakes (horribly designed there anyway) became ghost areas because tons of players were in battlegrounds. It doesn't matter if they are linked by progression mechanics, there are only so many players at one time and splitting the population between mini-games undermines the original RvR/open world concept.

     

    The sad truth though is that this game will likely be standard RvR stuff anyway with forced objectives and faction based combat. All this means is that the game decides for what you are there to do and the "red is dead" philosophy will live on. Rvr needs to be the core essense of the open world but will likely just be really large battlegrounds safely separated from pve quest areas.

    You stay sassy!

  • PRX_sklurbPRX_sklurb New York, NYPosts: 167Member

    Personally, I prefer larger open world PvP/RvR that allows for a greater variety of topographical locations to fight in. A fun environment to use for breaking LOS or hiding your team mates in various ways is ideal. 

    I have certainly had a great deal of fun in BG's from other games, but they always felt sort of like "PvP-lite."

    CLICK: »»» http://CamelotUnchained.net «««

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  • RealLifeGobboRealLifeGobbo Yorktown, VAPosts: 218Member
    P { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

    I'm normally all for BGs while leveling, but I don't expect to see many of them.  They seem like they will be more of a "tutorial" on how to take a keep/location and defend it, much like Thidranki in DAoC and maybe get up to "RR2".  Beyond that, I am not sure they would exist, since there is a large focus on the main RvR zones.  I like to imagine guilds and alliances help each out, raising up the new blood to be full fledged... hmm... killers?  Sure, some guilds will dominate, but there is no way around that. It gives bigger feeling of accomplishment when you take them down!

    Aspiring Game Musician <<>> Inquiring ears, feel free to visit: http://www.youtube.com/user/vagarylabs

  • drakon3drakon3 Liberty Lake, WAPosts: 114Member
    Originally posted by Tamanous

    Open world pvp (talking OLD school here) was all about the open world politics. It isn't mindless zergs and red is dead as large guilds battle to control who dominates regions and ultimately everyone is forces to follow the rules of the day or suffer for their choices. Real open world pvp has always been about this from AO, AC and the few games since. It was a magical thing bu todays precious little tulips feel as if the developers must protect them at all times unless in a mini-game with zero consequenses for losing and magically *POOF* back into the real game to continue their further segregated adventures pretending the game is an open play ground.

    No, open world or FFA PvP has ALWAYS been about people like you wanting to gank and harass others for your own twisted pleasure. 

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