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Defining the purpose of steath ; the first step (POLL inside)

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Comments

  • ScambugScambug TortugaPosts: 389Member
    Originally posted by BowbowDAoC
    Originally posted by Pie_Rat

    Begone with stealth in MMOs. It's stupidly unrealistic. There's no way some dude can stand 10 feet infront of me while beeing totally invisible. Unless he's wearing the One Ring of course, but that's for another game...

    Now I'd have nothing against a REALISTIC form of stealth , ie: you'd have the ability to become invisible while standing in a shadow or something but running around in broad daylight totally invisible is just silly.

    You are totally outisde the subject of this thread. there are many other threads that talks about liking or disliking stealth.

    This thread here is mostly to talk about the various purpose could have in the game, and how it should be implemented depending of its purpose.

    I'm totally within the subject of this thread. You asked what purpose we think stealth should have in your game, I answered :none.

    Stealth is just, IMO, a bad concept (at least WoW type stealth). It's totally over the top unrealistic and also impossible to balance as a combat ability.

    So ok, to answer your question in a little more thought out way, ok to stealth but only if it isn't used as a combat ability.

  • TumblebutzTumblebutz Henderson, NVPosts: 322Member
    Originally posted by MarkJacobs

    ...and people wonder why I want to discuss stealth with our backers, want to try something outside the box, etc. This and all the other threads regarding stealth here, other forums, other games, etc. are proof that my intentions are good, Oh Lord! Please don't let me be misunderstood. :)

    Back to eye-charts.

     

     

    I don't wonder why, at all!

    I think the idea that stealth is a product of old technology is not really accurate.  I can't think of a game (I'm sure there are a few) that doesn't have some form of stealth (or "the inability to detect" someone.)  I only say this to illustrate that it's not an outdated idea any more than having a healer or tank is.  Hell, D&D had stealth in it!  It's just part of the genre, imo.

    Let's begin the discussion with the assumption that MJ will incorporate some kind of stealth (be it extremely limited, perma-stealth, or somewhere in between) into the game.

    Personally, I would vote YES, you can attack from stealth.  The ensuing question would then be:

    Should attacks from stealth include

    A) No attacks unique to stealth.  In other words, only attacks that can also be executed when NOT stealthed.

    B) Normal attacks offered in (A) but with an added damage bonus if executed from stealth.

    C) Special "stealth based" attacks with high damage and/or other bonuses.  Think: Perforate Artery or Backstab.

    To this question, I would vote (A) in the hopes that the lack of stealth based damage would be compensated for by providing more strategic abilities, such as the ability to sabotage siege equipment and/or the ability to scout.

    Honestly, the more I think about this whole issue, the more complex it seems to become.  Good luck with this, MJ!

    Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

    RED IS DEAD!

  • BowbowDAoCBowbowDAoC Granby, QCPosts: 470Member

    It IS very complex !

    So we have to really think hard about it, explore all possibilites, prevent everything about it to be OP'ed, while still make it fun, useful,

    alot of people like stealth, so its kind of an important issue. I think it has its place in CU too, i could even say, ESPECIALLY in CU.

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    Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
    Thurka on WAR

    image

  • Plastic-MetalPlastic-Metal Highland Heights, KYPosts: 405Member

    Interesting discussion here.

    Like a lot of posters, stealth isn't necessarily a "bad thing" in itself, but the incredible damage dealt immediately coming out of stealth usually combined with some form of stun implemented by most games is the by product in which gives stealth a bad name.  There's nothing worse than being at full life and looking over at the television screen only to glance back and realize you've already died within three seconds from some toon that slips back into the shadows thereafter.

    If there is a "stealth" enabled class, it should be primarily utilized for scouting, sabotage, and infiltrating/deception.  First, let's lay down some termnology so everyone knows what I'm talking abou heret:

    Scouting:  Allows players to literally scout about undetected, whether visible or slightly "invisible", in order to gain reconnaissance for their realm (or pick out higher win opportunity solo fights).

    Sabotage:  Allows players to disrupt supply lines, significantly damage siege engines/doors/walls, and anything in between that has yet to be announced that could fall into this category.

    Inflitrating/Deception:  "Stealth" classes bread and butter;  breaking into courtyards of keeps, climbing walls, and magically summoning 'decoys' that gain the attention of guards and players alike.

    That being said, and going by Mark's intentions of minimal (polished) classes at launch, the "stealth" class could incorporate both archer and traditional "stealther" playstyles into one class.  However, what you don't want to do is go down the same path RIFT traveled down and made it so easy for one base class to jump between a couple different specs that really didn't resemble their other branches.

    I posted in a stealth-related thread a couple weeks ago about my ideas, so I'll summarize them here again:

     

    • Agility, light armor based class
    • Stealth comes from hiding in shadows/near structures, but is not 100% invisible; if you're standing next to it, you can see it - completely invisible during night time day cycles
    • Allow the use of poisons and diseases, or even traps if an archer
    • Increased survivability through the use of damage mitigations, evasion, and summoning decoys.
    • The only class capable of climbing walls into keeps, towers, and other structures
    • Utilizes two primary spec trees:  Close range (dual wield or fist combat) or Ranged (short bow, long bow); both cannot be obtained, but players can dual spec to be an 'average' well rounded recon class.
      • It's likely every class will have multiple spec lines; third could be a combination style class that utilizes more magic and is a light "tank" without stealth, but still capable of climbing walls
    • Introduce Sabotage:  allows the class to go completely invisible, increases movement speed by 100%, lasts 15 seconds.  While sabotage is active, the player may sabotage an enemy's siege equipment or structure's wall/door causing it to temporarily critically fail or cause significant damage.  During this time period, the player cannot attack for 20 seconds.  If sabotage is successful, stealth duration increases for an additional 5 seconds.  Cannot use in combat.  (This allows players to have both stealth, serve a purpose for the realm, additional 'get away' skill, and allow undetected scouting.)
    • Introduce Deception:  allows the class to summon decoys such as carbon copies of the user to attack/confuse enemies, decoys that simulate a "1v1" fight to provoke players to add on the duel, decoy siege engines, or even decoy a multitude of fake defenders to ward off attackers.
    • Reintroduce Safe Fall:  allow the class to take reduced damage from falling higher distances.
    • Absolutely no high damage burst abilities directly out of stealth.
     
    This "stealth" class could be far more complex and capable than just traditional stealth..  think outside the box, guys!

    My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

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  • tleartlear Toronto, ONPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by MarkJacobs

    ...and people wonder why I want to discuss stealth with our backers, want to try something outside the box, etc. This and all the other threads regarding stealth here, other forums, other games, etc. are proof that my intentions are good, Oh Lord! Please don't let me be misunderstood. :)

    Back to eye-charts.

     

     

    Nuke it from orbit Mark.. it is the only way to be sure

  • meddyckmeddyck Athens, GAPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon
    How about making stealthers take extra damage if they are attacked while they are stealthed? Perhaps their normal defense abilities (evade, parry, dodge, block) would also be disabled when stealthed. That would be in keeping with the idea that they are focusing on avoiding detection rather than defending against attacks. It would raise the risk factor for a stealther moving into a crowd of visibles.

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • MarkJacobsMarkJacobs CEO City State Entertainment Fairfax, VAPosts: 473Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by tlear
    Originally posted by MarkJacobs

    ...and people wonder why I want to discuss stealth with our backers, want to try something outside the box, etc. This and all the other threads regarding stealth here, other forums, other games, etc. are proof that my intentions are good, Oh Lord! Please don't let me be misunderstood. :)

    Back to eye-charts.

     

     

    Nuke it from orbit Mark.. it is the only way to be sure

    LOL!!!!!! Quoting one of my favorite movies of all time = awesome. Thanks!

    Mark Jacobs
    CEO, City State Entertainment

  • HokibukisaHokibukisa Midland, GAPosts: 185Member

    I think that designing a mechanic with the preconcieved notion that it is implicitly overpowered is a big mistake.

     

    SOE prenerfed the living fuck out of Infiltrators and especially their cloak in PS2, and surprise, they're the lowest avg k/d and ratio and score per minute class by a massive margin. The logout->login exploit is used by infiltrators more than anyone else in that game cause they're the most vulnerable class in most situations, and aren't even the best at what they're supposed to good at.

     

    Before you even attempt to start designing stealth mechanic you need to clear your mind about your past experiences in games and focus on what tactics and strategy that you want stealth to make possible in a combined arms RvR game.

     

    This game will have vast open fields, forests, keeps, towers, bridges, gates, dungeons, patrols, siege engines, wall defenses, killable npcs. I mean thats what I would at least expect there to be in the game. Since there is going to be no PvE, I would expect there to be a LOT more stuff than in DAoC.

    I would expect there to be lockboxes inside of keeps where supplies for NPC's and repairs are kept. Keep dungeons where prisoners might be being kept.

     

    Due to there being an unknowable amount of cool stuff in an RvR game that stealth can complement, I would in no way design it around what some might think would be overpowered in 1 on 1 or 8 v 8 fight. Nor would I leave it up to a player vote.

     

    Make stealth whatever it needs to be in order for the much more important things to be awesome.

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  • Plastic-MetalPlastic-Metal Highland Heights, KYPosts: 405Member
    Originally posted by Hokibukisa

    This game will have vast open fields, forests, keeps, towers, bridges, gates, dungeons, patrols, siege engines, wall defenses, killable npcs. I mean thats what I would at least expect there to be in the game. Since there is going to be no PvE, I would expect there to be a LOT more stuff than in DAoC.

    I would expect there to be lockboxes inside of keeps where supplies for NPC's and repairs are kept. Keep dungeons where prisoners might be being kept.

     Due to there being an unknowable amount of cool stuff in an RvR game that stealth can complement, I would in no way design it around what some might think would be overpowered in 1 on 1 or 8 v 8 fight. Nor would I leave it up to a player vote.

     Make stealth whatever it needs to be in order for the much more important things to be awesome.

     

    I agree, Hokibukisa - It might be in Mark's benefit to sit down with the CSE team and discuss what they want to accomplish with stealth from a class perspective and not necessarily as a 'invisible caster killer' class.  There's so many cool things a "stealth" class could do without it having the traditional 'burst dps out of stealth' playstyle.  

    It's very much like the idea of "keeps" in pvp games; I'm working on a write up to generate some discussion on that, too.  Which is very much like what you just pointed out.  For years scientists have thought life could only exist if water also existed, but the new train of thought, which was much needed imo, is that just because we're "use to" certain things because that's all we know doesn't mean we can't think outside the box.

    My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

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  • TumblebutzTumblebutz Henderson, NVPosts: 322Member
    Originally posted by Hokibukisa

    I think that designing a mechanic with the preconcieved notion that it is implicitly overpowered is a big mistake.

     

    SOE prenerfed the living fuck out of Infiltrators and especially their cloak in PS2, and surprise, they're the lowest avg k/d and ratio and score per minute class by a massive margin. The logout->login exploit is used by infiltrators more than anyone else in that game cause they're the most vulnerable class in most situations, and aren't even the best at what they're supposed to good at.

     

    Before you even attempt to start designing stealth mechanic you need to clear your mind about your past experiences in games and focus on what tactics and strategy that you want stealth to make possible in a combined arms RvR game.

     

    This game will have vast open fields, forests, keeps, towers, bridges, gates, dungeons, patrols, siege engines, wall defenses, killable npcs. I mean thats what I would at least expect there to be in the game. Since there is going to be no PvE, I would expect there to be a LOT more stuff than in DAoC.

    I would expect there to be lockboxes inside of keeps where supplies for NPC's and repairs are kept. Keep dungeons where prisoners might be being kept.

     

    Due to there being an unknowable amount of cool stuff in an RvR game that stealth can complement, I would in no way design it around what some might think would be overpowered in 1 on 1 or 8 v 8 fight. Nor would I leave it up to a player vote.

     

    Make stealth whatever it needs to be in order for the much more important things to be awesome.

    A really good point.

    Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

    RED IS DEAD!

  • SBE1SBE1 New York, NYPosts: 335Member

    First, in CU you have to remember that there are no levels, so you aren't "ganking" lowbies or anything.  So all that fear of a stealther ganking you is just that, a fear from the past.  A relic of past games that is gone.

    Second, stealthers in general are weaker than visible classes (otherwise, everyone would invite stealthers into their groups).  Their advantage is stealth, allowing them to target at the optimal time. 

    Thus, a stealther using no tactics whatsoever and just willy-nilly attacks anyone anytime is going to lose the majority of the time, simply because their class is weaker.  A stealther who uses tactics to select the right target and the right time to attack will usually win.   So now you want to nerf tactics?

    Finally, on the front of realism.  First, you could argue that they should have to hide behind stuff.  Well, okay, but the graphics required to put tall grass, bushes and all the other things needed to make it realistic would slow down FPS to an insanely low level.  Second, if you didn't have a bunch of this stuff, then you'd make stealth worthless.   So, the compromise is to make stealth a bit unrealistic by allowing them to be invisible, where you assume they are hiding behind stuff that the game just doesn't render.

    Or, you could argue that they learn a secret magic of invisibility that most wizards never learn, and that rogues hold this secret tightly and share it only with others in their guild.  

    Either way, stealth isn't overpowered if not combined with decent tactics and it's not unrealistic for a fantasy game. It is a game after all, not real life.

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,783Member Uncommon

    not voting on the poll.

    My opinion on the matter? i only use stealth to avoid unnecesary fights, specially in open world pvp (that can be inevitable) to stay hidden from gankers and idiots that wont let me level in peace. Since CU is pvp only i can see how usefull it can be to avoid gankers while im focusing on other stuff outside of pvp or trying to find a fair fight while stealthing looking for the right level dude to attack

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  • BowbowDAoCBowbowDAoC Granby, QCPosts: 470Member
    Originally posted by SBE1

    First, in CU you have to remember that there are no levels, so you aren't "ganking" lowbies or anything.  So all that fear of a stealther ganking you is just that, a fear from the past.  A relic of past games that is gone.

    Second, stealthers in general are weaker than visible classes (otherwise, everyone would invite stealthers into their groups).  Their advantage is stealth, allowing them to target at the optimal time. 

    Thus, a stealther using no tactics whatsoever and just willy-nilly attacks anyone anytime is going to lose the majority of the time, simply because their class is weaker.  A stealther who uses tactics to select the right target and the right time to attack will usually win.   So now you want to nerf tactics?

    Finally, on the front of realism.  First, you could argue that they should have to hide behind stuff.  Well, okay, but the graphics required to put tall grass, bushes and all the other things needed to make it realistic would slow down FPS to an insanely low level.  Second, if you didn't have a bunch of this stuff, then you'd make stealth worthless.   So, the compromise is to make stealth a bit unrealistic by allowing them to be invisible, where you assume they are hiding behind stuff that the game just doesn't render.

    Or, you could argue that they learn a secret magic of invisibility that most wizards never learn, and that rogues hold this secret tightly and share it only with others in their guild.  

    Either way, stealth isn't overpowered if not combined with decent tactics and it's not unrealistic for a fantasy game. It is a game after all, not real life.

    I assume you replied to a poster not to the OP, as i simply suggested a series of questions that imo needs to be answered before actually implementeing stealth.

    And trust me, i love stealth myself, been a hunter that mainly scouted for years to protect our frontiers in Midgard. So i would be very if stealth was back, and useful, bu as said in the OP, before it is implemented, its role should be defined.

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    Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
    Thurka on WAR

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  • BowbowDAoCBowbowDAoC Granby, QCPosts: 470Member

    So far, we can see that a good majority of the voters (nearly 70% based on 68 voters at this moment) think that stealth should be in game, but with either little or no "ganking" power. That it should be used for strategic purposes, such as sabotage, traps etc. and in some cases, strategic assassinations. i'm glad to see that there is only a minority of people that sees stealth as a ganking power only.

    This gives me hope.

     

     

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    Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
    Thurka on WAR

    image

  • ZiftylrhavicZiftylrhavic GrenoblePosts: 222Member

    I already said it in the post about assassins, but having such a thing as assassination will in all case be too powerful.

     

    The assassin in real life is supposed to study his target for several days, sometime weeks, before striking, that's why they rarely miss and are that feared. And that's why you can't have them in MMOs, you want them to have the same firepower but with much less to no preparation time, you then don't have assassins, but supersoldier commando stuffed with enhancing drugs, way superior to any other character.

     

    If you reduce the firepower to let the target have a fair fight, then the stealther doesn't desserves the name of assassins, something like a commando name would be more appropriated.

     

    I'm only talking about the name of the class, but if you change it like that the players won't expect to be able to kill somebody in 10 sec and get away, so they won't be disappointed if we put something more like a light tank with stealth.

  • BowbowDAoCBowbowDAoC Granby, QCPosts: 470Member
    Originally posted by Ziftylrhavic

    I already said it in the post about assassins, but having such a thing as assassination will in all case be too powerful.

     

    The assassin in real life is supposed to study his target for several days, sometime weeks, before striking, that's why they rarely miss and are that feared. And that's why you can't have them in MMOs, you want them to have the same firepower but with much less to no preparation time, you then don't have assassins, but supersoldier commando stuffed with enhancing drugs, way superior to any other character.

     

    If you reduce the firepower to let the target have a fair fight, then the stealther doesn't desserves the name of assassins, something like a commando name would be more appropriated.

     

    I'm only talking about the name of the class, but if you change it like that the players won't expect to be able to kill somebody in 10 sec and get away, so they won't be disappointed if we put something more like a light tank with stealth.

    So far everything that we say on this forum or any other is purely theorical. I dont think it would be too powerful (stating your 1st paragraph) if there was lets say a cooldown of 1 hour, hell maybe 2 hours, 3 hours (who knows, not me for sure) regarding an eventual assassination skill, as this would "simulate" the strategic value and the time spent "studying" the target's movement, whereabouts etc. Thus removing the pure ganking aspect too.

    And who knows, maybe "assassins" (if there are any) WILL have to locate someone specific (for an RvR quest) and kill him/her.

    So many things are possible, so i'm merely exploring possibilities.

    We'll eventually know, since then i love to throw in ideas and imagine how it COULD be, not how it will be :)

     

    Edit : i do agree on your last paragraph, makes sense :)

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    Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
    Thurka on WAR

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  • VyntVynt Glendale, CAPosts: 632Member Uncommon

    I love stealth classes in games. I like the way daoc did it. I never thought they were too powerful.

    I chose the ganking option, even though that is a bias phrasing because I want stealthers to be able to materialize out of thin air attacking someone. Often people are in groups, so if an assassin targets someone and kills them, most likely they are going to die.

    I liked how they couldn't restealth in daoc until out of combat.

    It seems a lot of people not wanting stealthers in the game are people that always got killed by them. You would think from my support that I was a stealther, but that is not the case. I usually played a caster, which was a prime target of stealthers. I also won a good amount of the time when I got jumped. Probably less than half, maybe 2 out of 5. For a cloth wearer being totally surprised and still winning against a stealther is great.

    If I were to surprise anyone, even a stealther, with my caster (meaning seeing them before me and attacking), My win rate was near 100%.

    Also most stealthers couldn't really dominate non casters, so not like they're all powerful. Add in that there will be a lot of grouping, stealth being OPed really loses its luster. That is where the other attributes of stealth come in such as scouting, sieging, etc.

     

    As for the realism thing, there are plenty of novels where assassins have innate or learned magical abilties that turn them invisible, phase them out of sync, bend light around themselves, create an illusion of nothingness or air, or gather shadows to them that creates a distortion that is hard to see. Often it is just a poor explanation of the lore of the assassins in games rather than them being unrealistic.

  • BowbowDAoCBowbowDAoC Granby, QCPosts: 470Member

    I don't like to use the term "realism" when we talk about games. i think that the important factor is that there is a certain balance in game, and that any skills, spells abilities, etc. fit into the game, and brings something to it to make it whole, complete.

    EDIT : typo

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    Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
    Thurka on WAR

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  • ZiftylrhavicZiftylrhavic GrenoblePosts: 222Member

    You certainly have a point here.

     

    Also, to those that complain about stealth groups popping out of nowhere, i would answer than the only difference with a visible groups nowaday, in DAoC, is that you can see the visible coming, but with the speed bonus it's still near impossible to escape unless you are close to a friendly structure. Well, there is one more difference, the stealth group don't have any heal and will take more time to come back unless it's some albs with a minstrel to give them the speed.

  • Niix_OzekNiix_Ozek Calgary, ABPosts: 397Member

    Realism is a terrible excuse to not have stealthers in a fantasy game where half the classes can and do things that are totally un realistic.

    Balance the game around abilities / roles / classes. In rock paper scissors you have freedom to do things that you want, but don't do things just because they are "more real"

    ie. don't remove stealth, and don't include collision detection. :)

    Ozek - DAOC
    Niix - Other games that sucked

  • BowbowDAoCBowbowDAoC Granby, QCPosts: 470Member

    Edited original post to show the results of the same poll i did on a french CU community forums.

    Funny (and very cool to know) that french and english both agree with the same % on how stealthers dont belong in CU. (low %).

     

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    Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
    Thurka on WAR

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  • RealLifeGobboRealLifeGobbo Yorktown, VAPosts: 218Member

    As unrealistic as it is to hide in plain sight, some of my best memories in DAoC, WAR, and elsewhere was when I played stealthers.  I also love playing the counter-stealth role, for looking for other stealthers and taking them out!  I also enjoy being able to watch, climb walls, and relay information back to the realm on force activity.  Wow, memories are flooding my little brain right now -- feeling very nostalgic!

    Aspiring Game Musician <<>> Inquiring ears, feel free to visit: http://www.youtube.com/user/vagarylabs

  • BowbowDAoCBowbowDAoC Granby, QCPosts: 470Member

    bump.

    There is quite many new visitors, i'd like their opinion, without making another thread.

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    Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
    Thurka on WAR

    image

  • poisonmanpoisonman Warwick, RIPosts: 59Member

    Ok discussion seems to have stop in the thread I posted this in so I will copy / paste is here as well.

     

    The typical being invisible in the wide open in broad daylight 24/7 stealth of most MMOs is pretty done to death, and it would be cool to try something different.

    I'm interested to see where MJ goes with it, he mentioned the stealth system he wanted to test was batshit crazy. So I guess we will see what happens.

    I could imagine a cool system using disguises and / with short duration stealth (like warhammer), would have a kinda assassin's creed like feel to it or something.

    Also sounds like they could do a different camouflage system built along side of it as well, which can be influenced by distance, shadow , decor, movement, etc.

    Which could be used for both stealther / assassin type classes as well as archer / scout like classes.

    Would make it more tactical and "realistic", could be a cool system, where you become invisible not because no one can see you but because your blending in and not being noticed till the time you strike.

    But of course there is always the meta game, where if your disguise or stealth skills aren't high enough certain classes like enemy assassin / archer classes or possibly other classes with a high enough "perception" can see through it. I'm sure there is a lot of fun things you can do here.

    It would be a lot of deception and misdirection, could be interesting.

    It would be more like Social Cloaking /  Disguise Mastery instead of Invisibility. So you would be more like Batman / Assassin's Creed instead of being like the Predator.

    I'm flexing my nerd muscles now :-P

  • ThaneThane berlinPosts: 2,232Member Uncommon

    actually i would go with "all of the above" 

     

    since it's missing i won't vote i'd say   :)

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

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