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Identity Crisis

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  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Anakami

    I would like to further elaborate on the points I made, specifically that this does not feel like Elder Scrolls anymore.There is some proof that they did not really care about the established lore and rather concerned themselves mostly with their PvP mechanics. Saying that, I do know that they try to recreate the regions close to the single player games. I also know that they add lore books and that there is probably more written lore in this game than in all the other games together.

    The problem is just that if the game fails to cover the basics of what makes TES what it is, all the extra lore will not help make it into a world i can believe in. Of course, opinions and perceptions will differ when it comes to the question of what defines TES, so I will just state before what it is for me: Unrestricted travel within the featured regions, cultural diversity within those regions, factions that are united by a shared belief and not by race, freedom of choice how you want to play the game and what your character believes is right or wrong.

    Which leads me to the first point I would like to make. In the list of things I associate with TES, did you notice a predominance of war themes? There are not any, because that is not what the spirit of TES is all about. Yes there is conflict and strife, but all out war?

    I remember when I started reading up on this project, that the first shock came when I read the "explanation" they gave for the conflict betwen the alliances and the war in general.

    The drums of war have reached a fever pitch, calling the warriors of Tamriel to the field of battle.  The Daggerfall Covenant, the Ebonheart Pact, and the Aldmeri Dominion will take up arms and fight for control of Cyrodiil, the Imperial City, and the throne of Tamriel.

    Yes, that's it. After this they just go on about their glorious PvP mechanics. But let us take a look at the Story section of their website. Starts out fairly well with Molag Baal being established as the big bad villain. At that point I was thinking "hey, that's great, maybe the races of Tamriel will join forces and battle this together. Imagine my joy when I then read:

    In the midst of this chaos, three alliances vie for control of the Imperial City and the White-Gold Tower. High Rock, Sentinel, and Orsinium stand as one, united under the rule of the High King in Wayrest. Valenwood and Elsweyr have forged an alliance of their own with Summerset, while Black Marsh, Morrowind, and Skyrim have formed a third, uneasy pact.

    The Daggerfall Covenant. The Aldmeri Dominion. The Ebonheart Pact.

    Three armies will take up arms against the Empire, and against each other, to wrest control of the Imperial City and White-Gold Tower from the dark forces of Oblivion itself.

    Where do your loyalties lie?

    I mean, what?! I don't even...

    Ok, maybe there is a good explanation somewhere in the more detailed Alliances page. Let's take a look at the Daggerfall Covenant and their leader, High King Emeric.

    High King Emeric is a Breton merchant lord whose shrewd policies and masterful diplomacy earned him the trust of the Kings of High Rock, an alliance by marriage with the Redguards, and ultimately, a war treaty with the Orcs.

    Also note the description in the Alliance War section:

    Working together, the three races have formed a powerful alliance that aims to restore the Second Empire and bring peace and prosperity back to Tamriel.

    Ok, I thought, that at least sounds like it could have potential and add some complexity to the whole story. But then they revealed their true focus by letting the High King speak himself:

    Let us take up arms!  Let the fields of Cyrodiil run red with the blood of our fallen enemies!

    But let us spare the lives of a few, so that they may return to their homelands to tell their fellows the fate they met at the hands of the Daggerfall Covenant.

    One land! One Emperor!

    Who among you will stand with me?

    Ah, now that's a shrewd diplomat! Amazing how they aim to bring back the peace and prosperity back to Tamriel. Well, despite my sadness and the shock I got from this, I also had a good laugh.

    In that first intro on the Story page, if you take out the TES specific names, would you still know that this is a game set in the TES universe? Would all the focus on bloodshed and war make you immediately think "Hey, now thats my Elder Scrolls right there!"

    Or conversely: If you take a look at the map of Tamriel and the 3 Alliances, wouldn't you think "Now that's some convenient grouping of regions and races. I mean, look, they all lie next to each other, therefore they must band together!"

    I can only shake my head at what the dev team has done with TES. I would not have an issue at all with this porject if they had been honest from the start and would not try to sell more copies just by using the established name. They could have named this: "Realms of Tamriel - A loose interpretation of TES" Or: "Tamriel - Alternate Realities". Or maybe "Matt Firor's competition with Mark Jacobs' CU...in Tamriel!"

    You know, I can live with alot of conventions and compromises needed to make this into an MMO, but to take an established lore and kill its core features and then hope to still sell it to the fans of the series is not the smartest move imo. I don't want to play a TES where I am forced to pick a side and agree with it no matter what. I don't want to play a TES where most of the quests I encounter are there to incite me against other races that were unlucky enough not to be located near my own race's borders. I don't want to play a TES that is DAoC in a TES skin.

    You look at the history of Earth. Countries that once heated eachother ally together laters in our history. Then we had world wars that changed everything and thats kinda whats going on in ESO. This MMO takes place a 1000 years outside the game of TES. Why would alliances be the same? History over a 1000 years will in many ways like our worlds history be very different over that large a time span. Stop thinking inside a box. 


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • Caliburn101Caliburn101 LondonPosts: 636Member

    Let us take up arms! Let the fields of Cyrodiil run red with the blood of our fallen enemies!

    But let us spare the lives of a few, so that they may return to their homelands to tell their fellows the fate they met at the hands of the Daggerfall Covenant.

    One land! One Emperor!

    Who among you will stand with me?

    ... and which of you barstewards is going to stand above me as Emperor after I have made all these personal sacrifices to win!?

    PLOT THAT MAKES SENSE?

    Zenimax couldn't write one if you put a gun to their heads...

  • rygard49rygard49 Huntington Beach, CAPosts: 975Member
    Originally posted by Caliburn101

    Anakami.

    Don'y take any notice of 'Captain America' - he doesn't seem to be able to post unless he's calling someone, somewhere 'stupid', or some variant of it...

    ...

    Anyone claiming otherwise has fallen off the left hand side of the IQ bell-curve...

    Pot, meet Kettle.

  • AnakamiAnakami BielefeldPosts: 103Member

    @Caliburn101

    This is exactly what I don't understand. You can argue mechanics all day long, but argueing about the "soul" of a game is pretty futile, because it will be different for everyone. What you can argue though is the assumption that most people who feel disppointed now have very similar expectations about what the "soul" of TES is. And imo the devs butchered that "soul" too much in order to establish their beloved PvP mechanics.

    @Nanfoodle

    While I agree with you on the history part, it still does not relate to what I have criticised about TESO. Even if I try to get around the fact that the setting they chose is some sort of Call of Duty: Ancient Warfare, I still cannot approve of the way they handled the alliances and the way you choose for which side you fight.

  • rygard49rygard49 Huntington Beach, CAPosts: 975Member
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    You look at the history of Earth. Countries that once heated eachother ally together laters in our history. Then we had world wars that changed everything and thats kinda whats going on in ESO. This MMO takes place a 1000 years outside the game of TES. Why would alliances be the same? History over a 1000 years will in many ways like our worlds history be very different over that large a time span. Stop thinking inside a box. 

    No. According to the "logic" from those few long-winded Elder Scroll elitists, everyone must be allied at all times. Things like the British and the US being close allies today could never have happened, since there was a bloody, brutal war between the two a few centuries back.

    There's also such a thing as suspension of disbelief, which let's normal folk buy in to an otherwise ludicrous tale for the sake of enjoyment.  It appears that the top rung of the true Elder Scroll fanbase no longer possess the capability of performing that simple mental trick.

  • Caliburn101Caliburn101 LondonPosts: 636Member
    Originally posted by rygard49
    Originally posted by Caliburn101

    Anakami.

    Don'y take any notice of 'Captain America' - he doesn't seem to be able to post unless he's calling someone, somewhere 'stupid', or some variant of it...

    ...

    Anyone claiming otherwise has fallen off the left hand side of the IQ bell-curve...

    Pot, meet Kettle.

    There's a world of difference between a hypothetical someone and an actual someone rygard49 - but 'nice try' taking my last line out of context by removing the preceding text...

    ... I see you are a student of the 'change the previous post to suit my response' school of internet discourse...

    In fact I think that school should have a name - something like the 'Reconceivers' or the 'Insequent', .... maybe the 'Surrogates'...

    ... hmm I'll have to think on it...

  • Caliburn101Caliburn101 LondonPosts: 636Member
    Originally posted by rygard49
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    You look at the history of Earth. Countries that once heated eachother ally together laters in our history. Then we had world wars that changed everything and thats kinda whats going on in ESO. This MMO takes place a 1000 years outside the game of TES. Why would alliances be the same? History over a 1000 years will in many ways like our worlds history be very different over that large a time span. Stop thinking inside a box. 

    No. According to the "logic" from those few long-winded Elder Scroll elitists, everyone must be allied at all times. Things like the British and the US being close allies today could never have happened, since there was a bloody, brutal war between the two a few centuries back.

    There's also such a thing as suspension of disbelief, which let's normal folk buy in to an otherwise ludicrous tale for the sake of enjoyment.  It appears that the top rung of the true Elder Scroll fanbase no longer possess the capability of performing that simple mental trick.

    Unlike of course the simple mental trick you are using to make your point...

    There is as you probably well know, a natural limit to suspension of disbelief (SOB) - or we could all happily accept Pacman standing in for the Hulk in Avenger's Assemble...

    ... and the more one establishes a particular way of representing something, the more it becomes familiar and the less room there is for effective SOB.

    You see - 'long winded' "logic" trumps 'half cocked' "dogma" any day...

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Caliburn101
    Originally posted by rygard49
    Originally posted by Caliburn101

    Anakami.

    Don'y take any notice of 'Captain America' - he doesn't seem to be able to post unless he's calling someone, somewhere 'stupid', or some variant of it...

    ...

    Anyone claiming otherwise has fallen off the left hand side of the IQ bell-curve...

    Pot, meet Kettle.

    There's a world of difference between a hypothetical someone and an actual someone rygard49 - but 'nice try' taking my last line out of context by removing the preceding text...

    ... I see you are a student of the 'change the previous post to suit my response' school of internet discourse...

    In fact I think that school should have a name - something like the 'Reconceivers' or the 'Insequent', .... maybe the 'Surrogates'...

    ... hmm I'll have to think on it...

    No he was right, you were being a pot. We could dig and quote many of your posts. If people dont agree with you, you are very quick to insult. Not upset about it, insult me all you like I dont care but the facts are all over this forum. Not sure why you think otherwise.

     

     


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • OnigodOnigod Noord-HollandPosts: 688Member

    This game feels like its really being forced.

     

    For me this currently is nothing more but an attempt at milking out this name for cash.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Caliburn101
    Originally posted by rygard49
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    You look at the history of Earth. Countries that once heated eachother ally together laters in our history. Then we had world wars that changed everything and thats kinda whats going on in ESO. This MMO takes place a 1000 years outside the game of TES. Why would alliances be the same? History over a 1000 years will in many ways like our worlds history be very different over that large a time span. Stop thinking inside a box. 

    No. According to the "logic" from those few long-winded Elder Scroll elitists, everyone must be allied at all times. Things like the British and the US being close allies today could never have happened, since there was a bloody, brutal war between the two a few centuries back.

    There's also such a thing as suspension of disbelief, which let's normal folk buy in to an otherwise ludicrous tale for the sake of enjoyment.  It appears that the top rung of the true Elder Scroll fanbase no longer possess the capability of performing that simple mental trick.

    Unlike of course the simple mental trick you are using to make your point...

    There is as you probably well know, a natural limit to suspension of disbelief (SOB) - or we could all happily accept Pacman standing in for the Hulk in Avenger's Assemble...

    ... and the more one establishes a particular way of representing something, the more it becomes familiar and the less room there is for effective SOB.

    You see - 'long winded' "logic" trumps 'half cocked' "dogma" any day...

    Art should mimic life, so like alliances changing in RL, so should they in the game. This is not breaking lore its growing it. Where would Star Wars be witout the expanded universe. The books and adding to the lore and story have added a depth that the fans love. There are times in the lore where Jedi and Sith have joined forces. Times in the lore where there were only a handfull of jedi out numbered by the sith and the other way around. Do you really want the same cookie cutter lore/story? Walking into the game knowing everything about this time in TES history? What fun would that be? Not much IMO. Growing and adding to the lore/story is needed to keep the game alive. Where there is no growth death is quick to take over.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • rygard49rygard49 Huntington Beach, CAPosts: 975Member
    Originally posted by Caliburn101

    There's a world of difference between a hypothetical someone and an actual someone rygard49 - but 'nice try' taking my last line out of context by removing the preceding text...

    ... I see you are a student of the 'change the previous post to suit my response' school of internet discourse...

    In fact I think that school should have a name - something like the 'Reconceivers' or the 'Insequent', .... maybe the 'Surrogates'...

    ... hmm I'll have to think on it...

    No. You threw out a blanket statement that ANYONE who says something different than you lacks a sufficient IQ. You've actually gone beyond calling just one person stupid, you're now calling everyone who disagrees with you stupid. That's not a hypothetical someone.

    Your preceding text had nothing to do with point I was making, that you were being a hypocrite, therefore it was removed. I had honestly hoped you would have gotten that, seeing as the entire rest of your post was irrelevant to that point. In the future I'll leave your full posts intact and will go to an old standby I've seen others use... color coding!

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Onigod

    This game feels like its really being forced.

     

    For me this currently is nothing more but an attempt at milking out this name for cash.

    Ok, lets chuck out just the ability to go anywhere and have any race join any faction. Whats missing that makes this not a TES game? Because it takes more then the two options I just listed to make a TES game. Really whats missing?


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rygard49
    Originally posted by Caliburn101

    There's a world of difference between a hypothetical someone and an actual someone rygard49 - but 'nice try' taking my last line out of context by removing the preceding text...

    ... I see you are a student of the 'change the previous post to suit my response' school of internet discourse...

    In fact I think that school should have a name - something like the 'Reconceivers' or the 'Insequent', .... maybe the 'Surrogates'...

    ... hmm I'll have to think on it...

    No. You threw out a blanket statement that ANYONE who says something different than you lacks a sufficient IQ. You've actually gone beyond calling just one person stupid, you're now calling everyone who disagrees with you stupid. That's not a hypothetical someone.

    Your preceding text had nothing to do with point I was making, that you were being a hypocrite, therefore it was removed. I had honestly hoped you would have gotten that, seeing as the entire rest of your post was irrelevant to that point. In the future I'll leave your full posts intact and will go to an old standby I've seen others use... color coding!

    You look good in green =-)


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • rygard49rygard49 Huntington Beach, CAPosts: 975Member
    Originally posted by Caliburn101
    Originally posted by rygard49
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    You look at the history of Earth. Countries that once heated eachother ally together laters in our history. Then we had world wars that changed everything and thats kinda whats going on in ESO. This MMO takes place a 1000 years outside the game of TES. Why would alliances be the same? History over a 1000 years will in many ways like our worlds history be very different over that large a time span. Stop thinking inside a box. 

    No. According to the "logic" from those few long-winded Elder Scroll elitists, everyone must be allied at all times. Things like the British and the US being close allies today could never have happened, since there was a bloody, brutal war between the two a few centuries back.

    There's also such a thing as suspension of disbelief, which let's normal folk buy in to an otherwise ludicrous tale for the sake of enjoyment.  It appears that the top rung of the true Elder Scroll fanbase no longer possess the capability of performing that simple mental trick.

    Unlike of course the simple mental trick you are using to make your point...

    There is as you probably well know, a natural limit to suspension of disbelief (SOB) - or we could all happily accept Pacman standing in for the Hulk in Avenger's Assemble...

    ... and the more one establishes a particular way of representing something, the more it becomes familiar and the less room there is for effective SOB.

    You see - 'long winded' "logic" trumps 'half cocked' "dogma" any day...

    Well exaggeration is certainly something you pocess no shortage of. We're not talking about a large leap of faith (get it?) in terms of accepting the lore. They're not putting the Enterprise and the Federation Starfleet up as a fourth faction.

    The only dogmatic statements in this forum belong to the members of the Church of True ES.

  • AnakamiAnakami BielefeldPosts: 103Member

    Hm, while the news about being able to explore the other zones at 50 is a step in the right direction, it still changes nothing about the main issues I have with their interpretation of TES. It is also the simplicity of their concept, not in a good way though. What they could have done with a bit more creativity, a bit more appreciation to the lore...

    Factions that fight each other because they want to claim some of Molag Baals power for themselves or use daedric artifacts.

    Factions that welcome all and everyone willing to fight for them and agreeing with their ideals. Come to think of it, how are they going to explain the Fighter's Guild and all the other universal guilds having members of all three major alliances? Are the guild meetings going to be one big bloodbath?

    There is so much immersion breaking stuff in here that the Suspension of Disbelief just cannot handle all of it. One of the worst offenders here is the inability to talk/understand people from the other Alliances. Never, ever, was it a problem in a PvP environment if you could talk to membersof the opposing faction.

    You got more flaming and grief from people of your own faction usually :D

    I am not too surprised though. Judging from their website and the description and the lore there, it is very obvious that PvP came first and TES a very distant second, if at all.

    The saddest part is this: they could have had all their PvP and MMO mechanics and still integrate it harmoniously with the established TES setting without killing its "soul". They just chose not to bother themselves too much with it and went the lazy path of convenience.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Anakami

    Hm, while the news about being able to explore the other zones at 50 is a step in the right direction, it still changes nothing about the main issues I have with their interpretation of TES. It is also the simplicity of their concept, not in a good way though. What they could have done with a bit more creativity, a bit more appreciation to the lore...

    Factions that fight each other because they want to claim some of Molag Baals power for themselves or use daedric artifacts.

    Factions that welcome all and everyone willing to fight for them and agreeing with their ideals. Come to think of it, how are they going to explain the Fighter's Guild and all the other universal guilds having members of all three major alliances? Are the guild meetings going to be one big bloodbath?

    There is so much immersion breaking stuff in here that the Suspension of Disbelief just cannot handle all of it. One of the worst offenders here is the inability to talk/understand people from the other Alliances. Never, ever, was it a problem in a PvP environment if you could talk to membersof the opposing faction.

    You got more flaming and grief from people of your own faction usually :D

    I am not too surprised though. Judging from their website and the description and the lore there, it is very obvious that PvP came first and TES a very distant second, if at all.

    The saddest part is this: they could have had all their PvP and MMO mechanics and still integrate it harmoniously with the established TES setting without killing its "soul". They just chose not to bother themselves too much with it and went the lazy path of convenience.

    The 3 faction war is just one part of the game. They have some really awesome PvE plans. DAoC did not just have awesome PvP, the 3 factions had some of the best PvE I have played. Locked faction maps does not mean bad PvE or story. 


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • jimdandy26jimdandy26 salem, ORPosts: 527Member
    @Anakami You cannot kill what it does not have.

    I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

    To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  • AnakamiAnakami BielefeldPosts: 103Member

    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    Originally posted by Anakami

    Hm, while the news about being able to explore the other zones at 50 is a step in the right direction, it still changes nothing about the main issues I have with their interpretation of TES. It is also the simplicity of their concept, not in a good way though. What they could have done with a bit more creativity, a bit more appreciation to the lore...

    Factions that fight each other because they want to claim some of Molag Baals power for themselves or use daedric artifacts.

    Factions that welcome all and everyone willing to fight for them and agreeing with their ideals. Come to think of it, how are they going to explain the Fighter's Guild and all the other universal guilds having members of all three major alliances? Are the guild meetings going to be one big bloodbath?

    There is so much immersion breaking stuff in here that the Suspension of Disbelief just cannot handle all of it. One of the worst offenders here is the inability to talk/understand people from the other Alliances. Never, ever, was it a problem in a PvP environment if you could talk to membersof the opposing faction.

    You got more flaming and grief from people of your own faction usually :D

    I am not too surprised though. Judging from their website and the description and the lore there, it is very obvious that PvP came first and TES a very distant second, if at all.

    The saddest part is this: they could have had all their PvP and MMO mechanics and still integrate it harmoniously with the established TES setting without killing its "soul". They just chose not to bother themselves too much with it and went the lazy path of convenience.

    The 3 faction war is just one part of the game. They have some really awesome PvE plans. DAoC did not just have awesome PvP, the 3 factions had some of the best PvE I have played. Locked faction maps does not mean bad PvE or story.

    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    @Anakami You cannot kill what it does not have.

    @Nanfoodle Maybe I have not made entirely clear what my issue is with the game, because you keep coming up with examples where we actually agree on. So let me try to put it as obvious as I can: My biggest gripe with their design decisions lies entirely in the way they set up their 3 alliance war. How they chose to group up the different races and for what reasons. The feeling of perpetual war, of fostering hatred towards the other cultures in Tamriel so that you can feel some pride in your own faction.

    Or to make it even shorter: They decided to insert an AvA all out war setting into TES. Imo it does not fit a TES game.

    @jimdandy26

    Well, that's a very subjective thing after all, isn't it? I will argue though that the quality of writing and the general depth of the TES games have suffered since Morrowind. It still has a soul for me, a general feeling that only belongs to Tamriel.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Anakami

    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    Originally posted by Anakami

    Hm, while the news about being able to explore the other zones at 50 is a step in the right direction, it still changes nothing about the main issues I have with their interpretation of TES. It is also the simplicity of their concept, not in a good way though. What they could have done with a bit more creativity, a bit more appreciation to the lore...

    Factions that fight each other because they want to claim some of Molag Baals power for themselves or use daedric artifacts.

    Factions that welcome all and everyone willing to fight for them and agreeing with their ideals. Come to think of it, how are they going to explain the Fighter's Guild and all the other universal guilds having members of all three major alliances? Are the guild meetings going to be one big bloodbath?

    There is so much immersion breaking stuff in here that the Suspension of Disbelief just cannot handle all of it. One of the worst offenders here is the inability to talk/understand people from the other Alliances. Never, ever, was it a problem in a PvP environment if you could talk to membersof the opposing faction.

    You got more flaming and grief from people of your own faction usually :D

    I am not too surprised though. Judging from their website and the description and the lore there, it is very obvious that PvP came first and TES a very distant second, if at all.

    The saddest part is this: they could have had all their PvP and MMO mechanics and still integrate it harmoniously with the established TES setting without killing its "soul". They just chose not to bother themselves too much with it and went the lazy path of convenience.

    The 3 faction war is just one part of the game. They have some really awesome PvE plans. DAoC did not just have awesome PvP, the 3 factions had some of the best PvE I have played. Locked faction maps does not mean bad PvE or story.

    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    @Anakami You cannot kill what it does not have.

    @Nanfoodle Maybe I have not made entirely clear what my issue is with the game, because you keep coming up with examples where we actually agree on. So let me try to put it as obvious as I can: My biggest gripe with their design decisions lies entirely in the way they set up their 3 alliance war. How they chose to group up the different races and for what reasons. The feeling of perpetual war, of fostering hatred towards the other cultures in Tamriel so that you can feel some pride in your own faction.

    Or to make it even shorter: They decided to insert an AvA all out war setting into TES. Imo it does not fit a TES game.

    @jimdandy26

    Well, that's a very subjective thing after all, isn't it? I will argue though that the quality of writing and the general depth of the TES games have suffered since Morrowind. It still has a soul for me, a general feeling that only belongs to Tamriel.

    I got that, as I said directed to that, 1000 years of history a lot can happen. Some like you keep saying it does not fit the lore but thats short sighted. Maybe your right and the lore and story writen for this time in the TES history will be really badly done but maybe it will add depth that will add greatly to TES lore. As it stands now, its not outside the norm of how RL history works.  Alliances change and thats a fact. Its a little early to call it yet.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • jimdandy26jimdandy26 salem, ORPosts: 527Member
    Originally posted by Anakami

    @jimdandy26

    Well, that's a very subjective thing after all, isn't it? I will argue though that the quality of writing and the general depth of the TES games have suffered since Morrowind. It still has a soul for me, a general feeling that only belongs to Tamriel.

    But it is not subjective. You are trying to hide "what I like about Tes" behind some absurd idea in order to garner sympathy for what you want. Just as I have said throughout the forum, are you really going to lament on about the "soul" of Final Fantasy? Mario? Star Wars? Star Trek? *Insert beloved Ip here*? These things do not have souls. And coperations are not people.

    I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

    To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,609Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Anakami

    I am not too surprised though. Judging from their website and the description and the lore there, it is very obvious that PvP came first and TES a very distant second, if at all.

    The saddest part is this: they could have had all their PvP and MMO mechanics and still integrate it harmoniously with the established TES setting without killing its "soul". They just chose not to bother themselves too much with it and went the lazy path of convenience.

    What if war broke out and due to the geography 3 loose alliances were formed? Why is it so hard for the Guardians of the Pure TES Lore to imagine possibilities? Don't you think that wars are sufficiently important to overtake concerns about trivial selfish pursuits and become the predominant social obsession?

    No amount of melodramatic phrasing like "...TES a very distant second, if at all" changes the reality that the non-fundamentalist TES fans (i.e., everyone else in this forum except for a self-congratulatory ostentatious handful) all see. Namely, this is very much a TES game set in an environment where a a 3-way war has broken out.

    Killing its soul...please. It really takes very little imagination to accomodate this new twist on the TES story into the lore.

  • AnakamiAnakami BielefeldPosts: 103Member

    Hey, I am all for artistic freedom and experimenting with new things that can add to existing lore. It's just that with a setting like this we are straying very far from what we have come to expect from a TES setting. So far, in fact, that it might have breached a point where it is too unfimiliar, too alien to still evoke a sense of "This is Tamriel".

    To give an example: I have some issues imagining a Tamriel where the only races I am going to see and interact with is limited to 3 in total. I mean, that's like playing a Skyrim where there are only Nords, Argonians and Dunmer. No Khajiit caravans, no Bosmer shop keepers, no Orcish strongholds or Redguard travelers. What I am getting at is that I will miss the cultural diversity which is imo one of the strong points of the TES franchise. You can't have that in a setting like they chose for TESO.

    And, again imo, it was totally unnecessary to do so. They could have made their 3 faction RVR but have the PvE part of the world, which is kinda everything except Cyrodiil, open and filled with different sorts of conflict. Why does it have to be race specific?

    I wouldn't have such an issue with their PvP design if it wouldn't affect so many areas of the game world that it is increasingly becoming too far removed from the Tamriel I know and appreciate. As I said, artistic freedom is great, adding new stuff to the lore is also a great thing, but there needs to be a threshold you don't cross.

    @Iselin

    Killing its soul...please. It really takes very little imagination to accomodate this new twist on the TES story into the lore.

    It also takes very little imagination to come up with a lore explanation that doesn't restrict the game in so many ways ;)

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by Anakami

    @jimdandy26

    Well, that's a very subjective thing after all, isn't it? I will argue though that the quality of writing and the general depth of the TES games have suffered since Morrowind. It still has a soul for me, a general feeling that only belongs to Tamriel.

    But it is not subjective. You are trying to hide "what I like about Tes" behind some absurd idea in order to garner sympathy for what you want. Just as I have said throughout the forum, are you really going to lament on about the "soul" of Final Fantasy? Mario? Star Wars? Star Trek? *Insert beloved Ip here*? These things do not have souls. And coperations are not people.

    Many of the stories Jimdandy26 listed are also stories that have expanded on their simple launching off points. What if every Marior games only had him fixing pipes, or saving his girlfriend Peach? What if Star Wars had stuck with most of the Jedi being wiped out or that the force was the most powerful power in the universe? We as fans would have missed out on so much. Video games need to grow and become more then their roots if they want to keep making new games. The changes in ESO are not so far from the founding lore that its odd like the federation from star trek is the 4th faction.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,609Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Anakami

    Hey, I am all for artistic freedom and experimenting with new things that can add to existing lore. It's just that with a setting like this we are straying very far from what we have come to expect from a TES setting. So far, in fact, that it might have breached a point where it is too unfimiliar, too alien to still evoke a sense of "This is Tamriel".

    To give an example: I have some issues imagining a Tamriel where the only races I am going to see and interact with is limited to 3 in total. I mean, that's like playing a Skyrim where there are only Nords, Argonians and Dunmer. No Khajiit caravans, no Bosmer shop keepers, no Orcish strongholds or Redguard travelers. What I am getting at is that I will miss the cultural diversity which is imo one of the strong points of the TES franchise. You can't have that in a setting like they chose for TESO.

    And, again imo, it was totally unnecessary to do so. They could have made their 3 faction RVR but have the PvE part of the world, which is kinda everything except Cyrodiil, open and filled with different sorts of conflict. Why does it have to be race specific?

    I wouldn't have such an issue with their PvP design if it wouldn't affect so many areas of the game world that it is increasingly becoming too far removed from the Tamriel I know and appreciate. As I said, artistic freedom is great, adding new stuff to the lore is also a great thing, but there needs to be a threshold you don't cross.

    @Iselin

    Killing its soul...please. It really takes very little imagination to accomodate this new twist on the TES story into the lore.

    It also takes very little imagination to come up with a lore explanation that doesn't restrict the game in so many ways ;)

    Such as? Which are the holy TES thresholds?

    All I hear is the same "I can't go everywhere with anyone" whine repeated in new ways here daily. There's nothing holy about that... it's a feature that has existed--within reason, the single player areas have all been pretty tiny compared to the MMO world-- in the single player franchise known as TES. Now a multi-player version is being developed for the first time and it differs from the single player version. Which heretical threshold crossing exactly did they engage in? 

  • AnakamiAnakami BielefeldPosts: 103Member
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by Anakami

    @jimdandy26

    Well, that's a very subjective thing after all, isn't it? I will argue though that the quality of writing and the general depth of the TES games have suffered since Morrowind. It still has a soul for me, a general feeling that only belongs to Tamriel.

    But it is not subjective. You are trying to hide "what I like about Tes" behind some absurd idea in order to garner sympathy for what you want. Just as I have said throughout the forum, are you really going to lament on about the "soul" of Final Fantasy? Mario? Star Wars? Star Trek? *Insert beloved Ip here*? These things do not have souls. And coperations are not people.

    Hm, first of all: I do not hide anything. I have made very clear what I think about TESO and what I like or do not like. And there is no hidden agenda here except that I wish to express my disappointment with some of the design choices they made.

    And about the soul of a game...what I mean by that is the things I associate with a game world and also the things that give me the most enjoyment when playing these games. It is by its very nature subjective because it all depends on me and my perception.

    Unless you want to tell me that my personal perception is wrong and only yours is right :D

     

    Such as? Which are the holy TES thresholds?

    I already have tried to explain it a few times,but let me do it once more: cultural diversity which also makes a game world more lively and more interesting. Can't have that in a rigid 3 races each faction setup.

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