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player housing in elder scrolls online

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  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,486Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by Xobdnas

    How can they not have player housing? They keep saying how much they are using the RPGs as inspiration and how similar this game plays to the RPGs yet they seem to be removing the core elements that make the RPGs so great.

    How do you figure? The most popular rpgs of all time had a "base" you operated out of at best, but most of that was nothing more than a contrivence to carry you around the map. None of which offered any kind of real customization that many people feel is a requirement for housing.

    Tools are becoming so easy to use to create spaces you can customize that devs are handing them over to players. Neverwinter, Rifts, Dragon Prophet to name a few, how is this a problem any more? Even landscape is not outisde players ability to manipulate. Importing a dumbed down set of dev tools is not hard to do and takes very little time away from devs making other content as whats needed is already in their hands.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • jimdandy26jimdandy26 salem, ORPosts: 527Member
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by Xobdnas

    How can they not have player housing? They keep saying how much they are using the RPGs as inspiration and how similar this game plays to the RPGs yet they seem to be removing the core elements that make the RPGs so great.

    How do you figure? The most popular rpgs of all time had a "base" you operated out of at best, but most of that was nothing more than a contrivence to carry you around the map. None of which offered any kind of real customization that many people feel is a requirement for housing.

    Tools are becoming so eash to use to create spaces you can customize that devs are handing them over to players. Neverwinter, Rifts, Dragon Prophet to name a few, how is this a problem any more? Even landscape is not outisde players ability to manipulate. Importing a dumbed down set of dev tools is not hard to do and takes very little time away from devs making other content as whats needed is already in their hands.

    I have no interest in Neverwinter. Relying on "throwing enough shit at a wall and some of it sticking" as a f2p business practice is not my idea of a good time. As for the "dumbed down" dev tools, bs. Look at Bethesda taking 8 months to get the ck out, and even then its had numerous updates due to bugs and the like, and it still has issues. The time spent on those tools in Rift took away time that could have been spent refining its numerous shortcommings in its xpac, like all of the area's players told them would be havens for bots, or relying on kill quests as the most effecient way of progression, and thats before looking at the sheer amount of additional item support needed, that could have been turned into things that people have been clamoring for (and will continue, even after many of those needs are met) like different outfits and types of outfits, weapons,fixing the copypasta world, etc.

    Every single decision made during game development has a trade off. There is a reason that generally if a game is going to have/get housing its not until later in its life cycle.

    I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

    To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,486Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by Xobdnas

    How can they not have player housing? They keep saying how much they are using the RPGs as inspiration and how similar this game plays to the RPGs yet they seem to be removing the core elements that make the RPGs so great.

    How do you figure? The most popular rpgs of all time had a "base" you operated out of at best, but most of that was nothing more than a contrivence to carry you around the map. None of which offered any kind of real customization that many people feel is a requirement for housing.

    Tools are becoming so eash to use to create spaces you can customize that devs are handing them over to players. Neverwinter, Rifts, Dragon Prophet to name a few, how is this a problem any more? Even landscape is not outisde players ability to manipulate. Importing a dumbed down set of dev tools is not hard to do and takes very little time away from devs making other content as whats needed is already in their hands.

    I have no interest in Neverwinter. Relying on "throwing enough shit at a wall and some of it sticking" as a f2p business practice is not my idea of a good time. As for the "dumbed down" dev tools, bs. Look at Bethesda taking 8 months to get the ck out, and even then its had numerous updates due to bugs and the like, and it still has issues. The time spent on those tools in Rift took away time that could have been spent refining its numerous shortcommings in its xpac, like all of the area's players told them would be havens for bots, or relying on kill quests as the most effecient way of progression, and thats before looking at the sheer amount of additional item support needed, that could have been turned into things that people have been clamoring for (and will continue, even after many of those needs are met) like different outfits and types of outfits, weapons,fixing the copypasta world, etc.

    Every single decision made during game development has a trade off. There is a reason that generally if a game is going to have/get housing its not until later in its life cycle.

    I agree, core game should always come first, you just sound like you would rather housing is never added. IMO thats ignoring a large % of PvE players who looking for just that. With so many quality MMOs coming out this year that have housing, IMO ZM should really look at when on their game plan it should be added.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • jimdandy26jimdandy26 salem, ORPosts: 527Member
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    I agree, core game should always come first, you just sound like you would rather housing is never added. IMO thats ignoring a large % of PvE players who looking for just that. With so many quality MMOs coming out this year that have housing, IMO ZM should really look at when on their game plan it should be added.

    I would love to see the data that has lead you to believe its a large percent of the playerbase. Those looking for that immersive single player experience in a group based game I can only believe to be a very small minorty based on the fact that they have no game catering to them. The Repopulation is really it to my knowledge, and even that is yet to bare any fruit. Other than that Wildstar is the only other "big" title that is known to be launching as far as I am aware, and that is also making a mistake of launching with 40 man raids too (and yes, I consider them a mistake no matter how much I am looking forward to them).

    I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

    To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,486Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    I agree, core game should always come first, you just sound like you would rather housing is never added. IMO thats ignoring a large % of PvE players who looking for just that. With so many quality MMOs coming out this year that have housing, IMO ZM should really look at when on their game plan it should be added.

    I would love to see the data that has lead you to believe its a large percent of the playerbase. Those looking for that immersive single player experience in a group based game I can only believe to be a very small minorty based on the fact that they have no game catering to them. The Repopulation is really it to my knowledge, and even that is yet to bare any fruit. Other than that Wildstar is the only other "big" title that is known to be launching as far as I am aware, and that is also making a mistake of launching with 40 man raids too (and yes, I consider them a mistake no matter how much I am looking forward to them).

    I have no numbers, just been what I have seen from the MMOs I have played and reading forums. Like EQ2, almost everyone had a house in that game. Even people who never thought they would like that kind of content. Most forums support the idea of player housing as its not something that takes much dev time as its mainly players who are doing the work there after the devs have made the space for us. It attracts a type of player most MMOers like to see in their game. So even if they dont want a house, they like players who like housing. Hardcore crafters tend to like housing. Most guilds like to have hard core crafters in their pockets. Nice to know when thge raid comes friday night the bank will have all the golden fish sticks you need and pots to boot =-) lol


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • rygard49rygard49 Huntington Beach, CAPosts: 975Member Common
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    I agree, core game should always come first, you just sound like you would rather housing is never added. IMO thats ignoring a large % of PvE players who looking for just that. With so many quality MMOs coming out this year that have housing, IMO ZM should really look at when on their game plan it should be added.

    I would love to see the data that has lead you to believe its a large percent of the playerbase. Those looking for that immersive single player experience in a group based game I can only believe to be a very small minorty based on the fact that they have no game catering to them. The Repopulation is really it to my knowledge, and even that is yet to bare any fruit. Other than that Wildstar is the only other "big" title that is known to be launching as far as I am aware, and that is also making a mistake of launching with 40 man raids too (and yes, I consider them a mistake no matter how much I am looking forward to them).

    I have to argue with that. In DAoC (are we all sick of hearing about how awesome that game was in it's hayday, yet?) it was very much a multiplayer feature. The housing was contained within several very large zones, and each home was a part of a "neighborhood" of sorts, with 10-15 houses all grouped together. Players were able to add merchants to their homes, both to sell trade goods, as well as the classic merchants and vault keepers (bank) you'd find in cities for crafting, and could then open up their houses to the public to use.

    A big negative to this type of personal housing, however, is once you have a place of your own to do your 'city chores', the main cities become lifeless. So while I do like the option of player housing from a selfish perspective, I don't believe it's healthy for the game world. And if you're just putting in housing to have a decorating mini-game, I don't think it needs to be rushed out.

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,503Member Uncommon

    I enjoy housing/guild halls in games, but I also think it tends to suck the playerbase out of the world.

     

    The most grievous example of this in my opinion was EQ2. If they had just made housing and guildhalls that you decorate, it may not have been so bad. But they made it so that you could do everything from your house/guild hall. Crafting, Auction House, materials gathering, teleporters to anywhere in the world, mentoring services, barber services, repair services, training dummies, and bank storage all became amenities that were accessed through housing/guild halls. In my opinion, taking this route really does contribute to the world feeling empty.

     

    Housing/guild halls with some kind of a decoration system and maybe some storage I think might make a really nice addition to the game, even if in my opinion it's less important than many other things. But if they do add it, I would prefer that they don't go overboard with what you are actually capable of doing from your house/guild hall.

     

    On a side note, I doubt that they will ever offer any form of non-instanced housing based on the direction they are taking this game. Given that, I view housing more of a decorative mini-game with some possible storage anyway. Then I ask the question, "is a decorative mini-game really what the game needs?" Not in my opinion, but if they do I add it, I would likely mess around with it every once in a while.

     

     

  • jimdandy26jimdandy26 salem, ORPosts: 527Member
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    I have no numbers, just been what I have seen from the MMOs I have played and reading forums. Like EQ2, almost everyone had a house in that game. Even people who never thought they would like that kind of content. Most forums support the idea of player housing as its not something that takes much dev time as its mainly players who are doing the work there after the devs have made the space for us. It attracts a type of player most MMOers like to see in their game. So even if they dont want a house, they like players who like housing. Hardcore crafters tend to like housing. Most guilds like to have hard core crafters in their pockets. Nice to know when thge raid comes friday night the bank will have all the golden fish sticks you need and pots to boot =-) lol

    Arguing anecdotal evidence is pointless.

    I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

    To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,486Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    I have no numbers, just been what I have seen from the MMOs I have played and reading forums. Like EQ2, almost everyone had a house in that game. Even people who never thought they would like that kind of content. Most forums support the idea of player housing as its not something that takes much dev time as its mainly players who are doing the work there after the devs have made the space for us. It attracts a type of player most MMOers like to see in their game. So even if they dont want a house, they like players who like housing. Hardcore crafters tend to like housing. Most guilds like to have hard core crafters in their pockets. Nice to know when thge raid comes friday night the bank will have all the golden fish sticks you need and pots to boot =-) lol

    Arguing anecdotal evidence is pointless.

    Then everyone should stop posting about ESO till its post launch and we know the facts lol. Speculation is our capital colloquium.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,622Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by colddog04

     Given that, I view housing more of a decorative mini-game with some possible storage anyway. Then I ask the question, "is a decorative mini-game really what the game needs?" Not in my opinion, but if they do I add it, I would likely mess around with it every once in a while. 

    That's how I've always viewed the implementation of safe, instanced, individual or guild housing... just a mini-game some enjoy. It's not something I've ever cared about in MMOs...nor did I fret over it in Skyrim for that matter. Even there although I had several houses, I just used the Archmage quarters as my storage and crafting spot and ignored all the other ones.

    Guild built and owned structures that can be attacked and defended is a whole different story. That system I do like. We won't be able to build them here, but we will have guild ownership of pre-built structures in Cyrodiil... hopefully there will be enough upgrade options with fortifications and npc guards that it will feel somewhat homey. 

    But that's just me... I've never fished in WOW either.

  • jimdandy26jimdandy26 salem, ORPosts: 527Member
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by jimdandy26

    Arguing anecdotal evidence is pointless.

    Then everyone should stop posting about ESO till its post launch and we know the facts lol. Speculation is our capital colloquium.

    What? You backed up your argument with the idea of "but forums leave this impression" or "But players I play with say this". Which is not only a poor argument, but I can fire off with several completely opposite experiences, much like Iselin did above. Thats why even bringing that into the discussion is pointless.

    Originally posted by Iselin

    But that's just me... I've never fished in WOW either.

    I did. Becuase it was a requirement for feasts and various crafting crafting professions, not to mention nerd points. None of those stopped me from hating, and in later expansions completely stopping, fishing. It got to the point I would rather farm for an hour and buy the mats that I would have spent 30min fishing for than to actually fish. There are many of those activities I just did not enjoy, and really never have in various games.

    I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

    To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  • rygard49rygard49 Huntington Beach, CAPosts: 975Member Common
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Guild built and owned structures that can be attacked and defended is a whole different story. That system I do like.

    That's a housing system I can definitely get behind. Place a limit on the number of actual locations that guild halls can be placed, and that's a sure recipe for conflict as guilds compete for real estate.

  • JyiigaJyiiga Seneca, SCPosts: 1,042Member Uncommon

    I don't really understand why titles of yester-year are still more feature packed than modern games. Deep crafting systems, housing and general fluff are left out of titles. 

    I also NEVER believe any developer when they say things like housing will be in an expansion... cause the general track record on that is not good. They preach it and then never implement it. 

  • CthulhuPuffsCthulhuPuffs Henderson, NVPosts: 363Member Common
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    I would rather they not include it at all. I feel it detracts far too much from the game.

    Yes lets create an Online Elder Scrolls game, add a bunch of stuff that was never in an ES game (PvP, Race=Faction locks, Segregated Faction areas) and remove things that have been part of ES (player housing, open world exploration, skill based leveling).

    Brilliant!

    Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.

    Games Played: Too Many

  • jimdandy26jimdandy26 salem, ORPosts: 527Member
    Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    I would rather they not include it at all. I feel it detracts far too much from the game.

    Yes lets create an Online Elder Scrolls game, add a bunch of stuff that was never in an ES game (PvP, Race=Faction locks, Segregated Faction areas) and remove things that have been part of ES (player housing, open world exploration, skill based leveling).

    Brilliant!

    What? Skill based leveling is still in the game, and you are getting more explorable area per faction than any Elder Scrolls game that has come before. As for housing, last I checked that was introduced with Oblivion, and was only really made a big deal in Skyrim with an extremely buggy Dlc.

    As for your detractors, first of all its pretty damn hard to include pvp in a sprg last I checked. The faction and race locks, there was really no reason for before. Now you can make a number of arguments, that they should not have focused so much on pvp, or they should have just made multiplayer Skyrim etc, but you were never going to get that anyway. There are a number of single player things that just do not translate well to a multiplayer setting. The largest one being balance. I mean vanilla Skyrim itself is horribly unbalanced between playstyles, magic for example is extremely underpowered at the high end, and thats generally ok in a single playergame, but would be death for a multiplayer one, especially one that is service based. The limited amount of players for the game that is so heavily supported (2 major dlc, 2 minor dlc plus retarded amounts of player support). The simple fact is, you do not have access to the numbers that they do. I would say that if you honestly think you can do better, then go finagle yourself $50m and get access to the ip and make it.

    I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

    To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  • MukeMuke BredaPosts: 2,172Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by FromHell
    Best player housing ever was in SWG, second for me is guild city building in Age of Conan, I hope ESO will have both player housing and guild cities at launch.


    Yes nothing more fun then walking in a Star Wars game, on a desert planet and seeing abandoned houses EVERYWHERE......houses all over the place and ruining spawns needed for missions. ^^

    Tatooine map, desert planet apart from some remote settlements....overhead map on...."WTF?: looks like the Manhattan streetplan."


    SWG housing interior was good, SWG housing exterior was the worst ever created in any MMO.


    player housing CAN be good, but they restrict placing them and let enough room for the online 'world' to explore.

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • Caliburn101Caliburn101 LondonPosts: 636Member
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by jimdandy26

    Arguing anecdotal evidence is pointless.

    Then everyone should stop posting about ESO till its post launch and we know the facts lol. Speculation is our capital colloquium.

    What? You backed up your argument with the idea of "but forums leave this impression" or "But players I play with say this". Which is not only a poor argument, but I can fire off with several completely opposite experiences, much like Iselin did above. Thats why even bringing that into the discussion is pointless.

    Originally posted by Iselin

    But that's just me... I've never fished in WOW either.

    I did. Becuase it was a requirement for feasts and various crafting crafting professions, not to mention nerd points. None of those stopped me from hating, and in later expansions completely stopping, fishing. It got to the point I would rather farm for an hour and buy the mats that I would have spent 30min fishing for than to actually fish. There are many of those activities I just did not enjoy, and really never have in various games.

    Where is YOUR non-anecdotal evidence for player housing not being popular huh?

  • Squeak69Squeak69 Colorado Springs, COPosts: 956Member
    Originally posted by Caliburn101
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by jimdandy26

    Arguing anecdotal evidence is pointless.

    Then everyone should stop posting about ESO till its post launch and we know the facts lol. Speculation is our capital colloquium.

    What? You backed up your argument with the idea of "but forums leave this impression" or "But players I play with say this". Which is not only a poor argument, but I can fire off with several completely opposite experiences, much like Iselin did above. Thats why even bringing that into the discussion is pointless.

    Originally posted by Iselin

    But that's just me... I've never fished in WOW either.

    I did. Becuase it was a requirement for feasts and various crafting crafting professions, not to mention nerd points. None of those stopped me from hating, and in later expansions completely stopping, fishing. It got to the point I would rather farm for an hour and buy the mats that I would have spent 30min fishing for than to actually fish. There are many of those activities I just did not enjoy, and really never have in various games.

    Where is YOUR non-anecdotal evidence for player housing not being popular huh?

    . . . .i agree with Caliburn on something . . . . . .?

    anyway, some of us actully enjoyed the fishing in WoW some of  us actually enjoy playing a gmae for fun instead of merly to get to the highest level and be the strongest char.

    F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used toimage
    Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon

    All the fanblinded people need to stop trying to defend yet another shallow MMO and realize we had housing 15 years ago, no excuse for not having it today, especially when it was so well integrated into TES games prior.

    This is Tortanic all over again...it's...it's...Testanic!

  • jimdandy26jimdandy26 salem, ORPosts: 527Member
    Originally posted by Caliburn101

    Where is YOUR non-anecdotal evidence for player housing not being popular huh?

    Every single sales trend? Every single developer that says clearly "its on the plate, but not for launch". I dunno, Logic?

    I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

    To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  • jimdandy26jimdandy26 salem, ORPosts: 527Member
    Originally posted by Xobdnas

    All the fanblinded people need to stop trying to defend yet another shallow MMO and realize we had housing 15 years ago, no excuse for not having it today, especially when it was so well integrated into TES games prior.

    This is Tortanic all over again...it's...it's...Testanic!

    Yep, 15 years ago from the "world simulator". That very same world simulator that the developers themselves had to continuesly restrict because they learned pretty clearly that players are pricks. There is a reason why there has not been a UO2, other developers learned from them. The post mortem is a hell of an eye opener, I recommend you watch it.

    I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

    To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,486Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by Caliburn101

    Where is YOUR non-anecdotal evidence for player housing not being popular huh?

    Every single sales trend? Every single developer that says clearly "its on the plate, but not for launch". I dunno, Logic?

    Hypocrite!!! This from the guy that says if you dont have hard numbers arguing anecdotal evidence is pointless. LOL Jim you should know better LOL

    EDIT: this is where you say, Touché! (((puts away his fencing sword))) 


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • jimdandy26jimdandy26 salem, ORPosts: 527Member
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by Caliburn101

    Where is YOUR non-anecdotal evidence for player housing not being popular huh?

    Every single sales trend? Every single developer that says clearly "its on the plate, but not for launch". I dunno, Logic?

    Hypocrite!!! This from the guy that says if you dont have hard numbers arguing anecdotal evidence is pointless. LOL Jim you should know better LOL

    EDIT: this is where you say, Touché! (((puts away his fencing sword))) 

    Not at all. I can post half a dozen links (and have in this very argument multiple times) and he will either ignore it completely, or squirm under the excuse that its circumstantial, because no one has ever released anything different. It really is not very hard to read between the lines though. In literally every single thread I have participated, or been directed to, no shred of evidence has been presented that shows its a highly desirable system to have in game, either from a player perspective, or from a monetary one. I would love to be shown otherwise. The best "evidence" are people telling stories about that one time they threw a party in a video game and they got 10 people to show up, or that Eq2 is "wildly successful" counting on housing, which is not even really accurate either.

    I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

    To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,486Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by Caliburn101

    Where is YOUR non-anecdotal evidence for player housing not being popular huh?

    Every single sales trend? Every single developer that says clearly "its on the plate, but not for launch". I dunno, Logic?

    Hypocrite!!! This from the guy that says if you dont have hard numbers arguing anecdotal evidence is pointless. LOL Jim you should know better LOL

    EDIT: this is where you say, Touché! (((puts away his fencing sword))) 

    Not at all. I can post half a dozen links (and have in this very argument multiple times) and he will either ignore it completely, or squirm under the excuse that its circumstantial, because no one has ever released anything different. It really is not very hard to read between the lines though. In literally every single thread I have participated, or been directed to, no shred of evidence has been presented that shows its a highly desirable system to have in game, either from a player perspective, or from a monetary one. I would love to be shown otherwise. The best "evidence" are people telling stories about that one time they threw a party in a video game and they got 10 people to show up, or that Eq2 is "wildly successful" counting on housing, which is not even really accurate either.

    As I said in my post you dismissed there has been lots of games that have pulled it off very well and when I played them even people who didnt think much of that type of content came to play it and often love it. I can link you many posts and games as well where it worked but why would I as you know they are out there as I am sure you could do the same for the other side of this. Its been around a long time and its a fact. It also brings a type of player guilds love the carebear crafter that likes to look after the guild. Who likes to spend their time fiddling with things like making Golden Fish sticks and Pots over just raiding. Even if you dont like player housing you should want it for the type of player it brings to the game. Its not even content that takes away much from the devs time as the players are the ones that tinker with it once the game space has been made for them. 


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


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