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People say they find the old school "Grind" yet if given the option to skip it, would they take it?

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by xeniar

    That is why he said "people TENDS to" .. not "All people will".

    Plus, you really want to slow everyone down just because you like to linger?

    So now it is not oke for him to make the group wait but it is oke for YOU to leave that group in the middle of a zone where they would most likeley die because it is in your convience.

    I love it how you just change your toughts evrytime in every post you make.

    Because I *can* quit whenever i want .. and i won't put up with waiting.

    What thought is changed? In fact, quitting is much better than waiting ... if someone quit, i don't have to wait for him, do i?

  • xeniarxeniar Posts: 805Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by xeniar

    That is why he said "people TENDS to" .. not "All people will".

    Plus, you really want to slow everyone down just because you like to linger?

    So now it is not oke for him to make the group wait but it is oke for YOU to leave that group in the middle of a zone where they would most likeley die because it is in your convience.

    I love it how you just change your toughts evrytime in every post you make.

    Because I *can* quit whenever i want .. and i won't put up with waiting.

    What thought is changed? In fact, quitting is much better than waiting ... if someone quit, i don't have to wait for him, do i?

    You can quite whenever you wants and you don't want to wait but you wont hesisitate to make other people wait on you.

    its al you you you you you you. go play your SP games man begone.

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by xeniar
    Originally posted by Cephus404

    That's very much why I don't like to play in groups.  I am the guy who wants to linger.  I'm the one who wants to take it slow and be methodical and kill every enemy and loot every chest in every single dungeon I play through.  Virtually everyone else wants to rush to the end, kill the boss, then do it again in their mad dash to endgame.  I have no interest in endgame, I have no interest in being left behind the screaming idiots, therefore I don't want to play with them in the first place.  I spend most of my time "behind" everyone else, but since I'm not competitive, since I couldn't care less where I rank in comparison to anyone else, it doesn't bother me a bit.

    so old school games would actually suit your playstyle. because evrything takes alot longer there u wont get behind because people will always be at your level. there arnt alot of screaming idiots there because it takes too long for them.

    or have we not been able to make u see these points?

    No, it's not people being at my level, it's people in my group wanting to push on ahead faster than I want to go there.  If I want to take 2 hours to go through a dungeon and the people I'm playing with want to be out in 10 minutes, there's a fundamental difference in playstyle.  My playstyle is nothing like old-school games, I don't want to be artificially slowed down, I want to go at the pace I choose to go at.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

  • PhelcherPhelcher Boston, MAPosts: 1,053Member


    Originally posted by Cephus404

    Originally posted by xeniar

    Originally posted by Cephus404 That's very much why I don't like to play in groups.  I am the guy who wants to linger.  I'm the one who wants to take it slow and be methodical and kill every enemy and loot every chest in every single dungeon I play through.  Virtually everyone else wants to rush to the end, kill the boss, then do it again in their mad dash to endgame.  I have no interest in endgame, I have no interest in being left behind the screaming idiots, therefore I don't want to play with them in the first place.  I spend most of my time "behind" everyone else, but since I'm not competitive, since I couldn't care less where I rank in comparison to anyone else, it doesn't bother me a bit.
    so old school games would actually suit your playstyle. because evrything takes alot longer there u wont get behind because people will always be at your level. there arnt alot of screaming idiots there because it takes too long for them. or have we not been able to make u see these points?
    No, it's not people being at my level, it's people in my group wanting to push on ahead faster than I want to go there.  If I want to take 2 hours to go through a dungeon and the people I'm playing with want to be out in 10 minutes, there's a fundamental difference in playstyle.  My playstyle is nothing like old-school games, I don't want to be artificially slowed down, I want to go at the pace I choose to go at.
     

    You are making a case for a deeper, lerger game. But you are confusing your playstyle with others. If others cannot handle a dungeon and move on after 2h, while others spend weeks exploring... what does any of that have to do with oldschool or a grind.

    You sound upset that others do things faster than you. Sin e they do, u want a game where nobody can move thru content faster than you. Instead of understanding why/how people move thru dungeons faster than you. This upsets you, because you take in things more slowly than other playstyles.

    Thus, since it has happened often for you, enough to leave a mark, that it is now a top priority for u when choosing a new game. U feel inadaquate compared to those who powergame thru content you tackle casually. Thing is... you are the only one who cares.

    The content (ie dungeon) is all there for the taking and exploring, if u want to zpend 5h in there, dont vet upset at those who only stay 2h. Seems like u want a game to cater fo your needs.

    "No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


    -Nariusseldon

  • PhelcherPhelcher Boston, MAPosts: 1,053Member


    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by xeniar

    That is why he said "people TENDS to" .. not "All people will". Plus, you really want to slow everyone down just because you like to linger?
    So now it is not oke for him to make the group wait but it is oke for YOU to leave that group in the middle of a zone where they would most likeley die because it is in your convience. I love it how you just change your toughts evrytime in every post you make.
    Because I *can* quit whenever i want .. and i won't put up with waiting. What thought is changed? In fact, quitting is much better than waiting ... if someone quit, i don't have to wait for him, do i?
     

    Face it Narius, you play arcade games for entertainment only & already said u dont care to socially interact. You prefere free games and microtransactions and think lobby play (instancing) is the holy grail.

    So why are u not spending you multiple 15m of play time on consol games? Which is meant for that type of erratic in/out gameplay. Narius, why are you not playing BF3..? It is everything you are a proponent of.

    Why are you here on mmorpg forums if you dont like mmorpgs...?

    "No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


    -Nariusseldon

  • BahamutKaiserBahamutKaiser Hyattsville, MDPosts: 306Member

    The issue of being handicapped by being left behind and requiring assistance should have been improved a long time ago. I had always hoped character progression would be equivalent and comparable by level so a combination of weaker units could face the same challenge in cooperation as a powerful unit, or any mix totalling the same power.

    For example, let's say there are 5 level ten players and 1 level fifty players, if the character growth and stats were balanced properly, and damage penetration wasn't completely diminished by huge thresholds, it would allow the 5 weaker units to operate at about the same power as the single unit 5 times more powerful then the latter. This creates situations where a challenge can be set at level 100 difficulty, but the group facing that content could be any combination totalling up to 100.

    I don't presume to say you'd have to team up because of this opportunity, but by allowing mixed cooperation and effectiveness, said level 100 challenge could be faced by two LVL 50s, ten LVL 10s, two 30s and two 20s, or five LVL 10s + a LVL 50. This system of equitable power makes it much easier to participate with others. It also opens up opportunities for mixed level PvP content which remains competitive based on total power present on a team.

    I don't know if that's a solution your interested in, but its a possibility...

    Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
    That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  • AeolynAeolyn Langley, BCPosts: 208Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Arclan

    O.P. you need some perspective. Permit me to offer a similar situiation. If a hypothetical game let players create whatever characters they wanted to, which route would players take?


    1. create a level 1 character with no gear and very weak stats
    2. create a level 1000 character with the best gear in the game and max stats.


    Obviously everyone would pick (2) and your logic would conclude players don't like RPGs.

    Let me throw a bug into your conclusion because I would pick 1, every single time.

    I enjoy the "journey" in the games I play(mmorpgs and even simple console rpgs) and in fact avoid getting to endgame by redoing the activities along the way(some would call that grinding I suppose) because if I'm enjoying the journey why would I want it to end?  Before you ask, if I don't find the journey to be fun then I simply don't play that game and no endgame options the devs could throw at me would convince me otherwise.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,451Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rojo6934

    grind should not = progression IN ANY WAY. That was years ago. Leave it in the sad and forgotten past full of grind. The present wants to keep fighting to keep the grind alive. Thats Enough!.... Remove levels, Remove grinds, Remove everything that is not fun (grind tops the list). Any sort of progression should be fun, challenging, and interesting. Not a horrible grind because thats what i need to do to get my nea gear...... gear grind is also BS. Away with all that crap.

     

    Sometimes i think all these devs/pubs that keep adding this crap to mmos think we are some kind of zombies that will give them money just because. Stop the crap or you aint getting a dime from me. If devs need enough time to make more content, add dev kits for people to create their own content like the foundry. Also dont add levels. Levels only lead to an imaginary end game that noone ever sees.  When i log out and uninstall the game for any reason, thats when i can say i reached end game. Im done.

    and how would you propose they do that without someone eventually screaming "grind".

    You say that progression should be fun (which is subjective but I digress) but the act of progressing from one place, state, level, etc needs to take x amount of time.

    Are you saying that the progression should come in faster bits? Because eventualy someone will point out that all those faster bits are a grind to get to the top of whatever that place is.

    One could say "you have quests that eventually get to the next level, stat increase, extra perk, etc" but one might point out that doing "x" amount of quests is a grind because they don't want to do those quests.

    Essentially, if you are going to progress, whether that be horizontally or vertically, there is a sort of journey going on there. What are you thinking of that gets you from one point to another that someone, somewhere, isn't going to eventually call "a grind" because they don't want to do it?

    I personally like the Elderscrolls system of using a skill during regular course of play and eventualy it raises. Except that some players actually grind out those skills to get them higher. And even in online games I hear that players would use cheats or methods to continually do something, not through regular game play, to raise their stats.

    So already the player has created a grind where there shouldn't be one. As always, their own worst enemies.

  • BahamutKaiserBahamutKaiser Hyattsville, MDPosts: 306Member

    Whether "someone" claims it is grind is fairly irrelevant. If they are in the overwhelming minority, or just trying to troll, than their opinion isn't really meaningful. The objective is to make gameplay satisfying for most players across most interests, or a large enough group to maintain an acceptable customer base. People need to stop serving up exceptions as limitations, the concern is identifying and satisfying most players as best one can, not serving every exception without cause.

    Maybe a developer can hit the largest group of interest, maybe they can hit divergent interests with a solution that fits both, or maybe they just try to serve a large untapped market. One way or another, making games players want and eliminating grind can be done, even if its only bit by bit, with different games for different ppl. Just because "somebody" isn't satisfied doesn't mean its not a proper or necessary endeavour.

    Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
    That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by Phelcher

     



     

     

    You are making a case for a deeper, lerger game. But you are confusing your playstyle with others. If others cannot handle a dungeon and move on after 2h, while others spend weeks exploring... what does any of that have to do with oldschool or a grind.

    I'm not making a case for anything, I'm stating my preference.  That's how I like to play.  I don't care how anyone else plays, but the fact that everyone else seems to play at a faster rate than I enjoy means I really have no interest in playing in groups.  It's not fun for me to run after them, it's not fun for them to wait up for me, therefore we can part ways and play our own respective ways.

    You sound upset that others do things faster than you. Sin e they do, u want a game where nobody can move thru content faster than you. Instead of understanding why/how people move thru dungeons faster than you. This upsets you, because you take in things more slowly than other playstyles.

    I'm not upset at all, I simply understand the reality and choose to do things my own way.  While it might be nice if I had other people to play with, I'm perfectly find just soloing through all of the content, as is necessary in order to have fun playing the game.

    Thus, since it has happened often for you, enough to leave a mark, that it is now a top priority for u when choosing a new game. U feel inadaquate compared to those who powergame thru content you tackle casually. Thing is... you are the only one who cares.

    In order to feel inadequate, one would have to give a shit about anyone else playing the game.  I don't.  I'm not remotely competitive.  I'm happy soloing.

    The content (ie dungeon) is all there for the taking and exploring, if u want to zpend 5h in there, dont vet upset at those who only stay 2h. Seems like u want a game to cater fo your needs.

    I'm not upset, why do you think that anyone who makes an observation is upset about the observation.  It is what it is.  I play games that are fun for me.  If they're not fun, I don't play.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

  • MagiknightMagiknight McKinleyville, CAPosts: 782Member
    This thread has to be the most ridiculous one I have ever seen on mmorpg.com
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by xeniar
     

    You can quite whenever you wants and you don't want to wait but you wont hesisitate to make other people wait on you.

    its al you you you you you you. go play your SP games man begone.

    It is my entertainment .. of course it is me, me, me .. what do you expect? Play games to entertain you?

    And i am going to play a MMO tonight with that attitude. There is really nothing you can do about it.

     

  • OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by Phelcher

    Thus, since it has happened often for you, enough to leave a mark, that it is now a top priority for u when choosing a new game. U feel inadaquate compared to those who powergame thru content you tackle casually. Thing is... you are the only one who cares.

    In order to feel inadequate, one would have to give a shit about anyone else playing the game.  I don't.  I'm not remotely competitive.  I'm happy soloing.

    Typical assumption of competitive people is that they think everyone is competitive.

  • xeniarxeniar Posts: 805Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by xeniar
     

    You can quite whenever you wants and you don't want to wait but you wont hesisitate to make other people wait on you.

    its al you you you you you you. go play your SP games man begone.

    It is my entertainment .. of course it is me, me, me .. what do you expect? Play games to entertain you?

    And i am going to play a MMO tonight with that attitude. There is really nothing you can do about it.

     

    yeah its your entertainment but your playing with OTHER people. U my friend are a Jerk plain and simple. i wonder how life is treating u out there. ah and skip the friend part we could never be.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by xeniar
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by xeniar
     

    You can quite whenever you wants and you don't want to wait but you wont hesisitate to make other people wait on you.

    its al you you you you you you. go play your SP games man begone.

    It is my entertainment .. of course it is me, me, me .. what do you expect? Play games to entertain you?

    And i am going to play a MMO tonight with that attitude. There is really nothing you can do about it.

     

    yeah its your entertainment but your playing with OTHER people. U my friend are a Jerk plain and simple. i wonder how life is treating u out there. ah and skip the friend part we could never be.

    So you agree that there is nothing you can do? Life is treating me very well. There are tons of games i like, and the trends of the industry seem to go in the direction i like. And i still haven't mentioned other types of entertainmetn i like.

    How is life treating you?

     

  • ksternalksternal Hainesport, NJPosts: 81Member
    Well I'm one of the few people who actually doesn't mind grinding if the reward is worth the effort. I hate these MMO's these days were you can reach max level within a week of game play and here is Death Penatly similar to City of Heroes/Villains where you you only earned half of your normal amount of xp till the debt was payed off.
  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by Phelcher

    Thus, since it has happened often for you, enough to leave a mark, that it is now a top priority for u when choosing a new game. U feel inadaquate compared to those who powergame thru content you tackle casually. Thing is... you are the only one who cares.

    In order to feel inadequate, one would have to give a shit about anyone else playing the game.  I don't.  I'm not remotely competitive.  I'm happy soloing.

    Typical assumption of competitive people is that they think everyone is competitive.

    And even when told you're not competitive, they can't believe it.  MMOs have turned into a massive dick-waving clusterfuck, with everyone trying to pretend they're hot shit in an online world.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

  • PhelcherPhelcher Boston, MAPosts: 1,053Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by xeniar
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by xeniar
     

    You can quite whenever you wants and you don't want to wait but you wont hesisitate to make other people wait on you.

    its al you you you you you you. go play your SP games man begone.

    It is my entertainment .. of course it is me, me, me .. what do you expect? Play games to entertain you?

    And i am going to play a MMO tonight with that attitude. There is really nothing you can do about it.

     

    yeah its your entertainment but your playing with OTHER people. U my friend are a Jerk plain and simple. i wonder how life is treating u out there. ah and skip the friend part we could never be.

    So you agree that there is nothing you can do? Life is treating me very well. There are tons of games i like, and the trends of the industry seem to go in the direction i like. And i still haven't mentioned other types of entertainmetn i like.

    How is life treating you?

     

     

    What trends in the industry..?

     

    Do you mean the ones you've keep repeatedly bring up here, that is 100% unsubstantiated. Only that you use public figures and skew them to maintain your troll..  THose?

    Or, the brief foray of sinking ships going free to play, & other cheap things going on (as of late) within the industry, as the industry tries to right-size itself, after the massive flux of WoW refugee entering & re-entering the market..?

     

     

    Narius, there are people here who have a much better pulse on the gaming industry, than you. And  specifically the MMO & MMORPG industry.

    You seem very ignorant of a great bit of history, progeny and the building blocks. You do not understand what makes a succesful MMORPG, so you dable with ideas...  because your a market/business man, here to market. Not discuss as an end-user/player.. 

    So again, make no mistake dude, you have a pattern about your posts and EVERYONE HERE... knows your a data marketer. You obsessiveness about "trends" in the video game industry is all but obvious and a worn out topic...   but not only are you so broad, you speak in MMO terms, not MMORPG terms.

    THen, ignorantly assume that MMO = MMORPG, after being reminded in everyone of your post that they are different. Then, to futher prove your not a MMORPG player, you go on to incessantly tell us that you don't need other players, don't want other players & that you are typically a solo player. Who recently claimed that you don't pay for any games, because F2P is the way to go... etc.

     

    You...   nor Your playstyle mirrors (in anyway) the typical MMO, or even the typical MMORPG player. You are an oddity and think/want everyone to have meaninglyless play like you. Because you are incapable of comitment to a hobby, thus ur arcade. 

     

    Nothing you say hold water dude. just stop thread-craping. You are in the wrong forum, or on the wrong website. Kiddie arcade games are a dime a dozen... most free as apps on phone.

    "No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


    -Nariusseldon

  • iixviiiixiixviiiix GSPosts: 832Member Uncommon

    If i can skip it then i will skip , human are lazy lol.

    But if game don't give me any work after i "skip" to max level then i will quit.

    No work left then i don't have any reason to play it anymore.

     

    And i want to make it clean between "hunt" and "grind"

    "grind" is a worst , no one want to grind. If they can skip it , then they will.

    But "hunt" is an enjoyment , you do it to fun.

     

    And there are critical fail in the OP.

    That

    IF a MMO give player chose to "skip" they grind then it not an Exp  "grind" game anymore.

    And for the term "grind mob" , it mean alot. You also earn gear and gold by grind mob.

    So

    Even if you give player chose to "skip" , they still have to grind more monster for gear and gold.

    In the end , player still have to grind , and grind bring joy for them lol.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by Phelcher

    Thus, since it has happened often for you, enough to leave a mark, that it is now a top priority for u when choosing a new game. U feel inadaquate compared to those who powergame thru content you tackle casually. Thing is... you are the only one who cares.

    In order to feel inadequate, one would have to give a shit about anyone else playing the game.  I don't.  I'm not remotely competitive.  I'm happy soloing.

    Typical assumption of competitive people is that they think everyone is competitive.

    And even when told you're not competitive, they can't believe it.  MMOs have turned into a massive dick-waving clusterfuck, with everyone trying to pretend they're hot shit in an online world.

    Just how human nature works. Games provide an illusion of achievement.

  • AminitaAminita bolton landing, NYPosts: 8Member

    There is an unsspoken challange... To find  the  BEST  and  Fastest  way  to  level...

    people spend  days   just  looking  for  more efiecent  ways  to  "Beat the  Grind".. 

    Some are  Very  creative .. !

  • KonfessKonfess Dallas, TXPosts: 949Member Uncommon

    Once again please check out the Bartle Test. Achievers by definition prefer the grind, they get a sense of achievement from it. Same may also apply to Explorers, They like to get around and some areas may require them to level to enter or reach a spot. So they are ok with the grind or time sink or “Work” aspect of the game. The opposite side of the coin are the Killers and socializers, normally mortal enemies they are both about seeking instant gratification.

    There is a type of killer we may have all seen. The constant PvPer. This killer levels their toon at PvP and nothing else. If the game doesn’t give xp for pvp they don’t play it. Their only goal is to be the most deadly toon on the server. Leveling and the grind is the worst, this is their toon at its weakest. If they could jump in at max level and max pvp gear they would take it.

    The Socializer spends their time at the social hub, be it a capital city general chat or “The Barrens”. The SWG Entertainer was the perfect class for this type. It could be leveled afdk in the background leaving the player free to chat and focus on the chat window. This type of player is mostly concerned with fashion and style, and will only level to wear fashion that requires a level.

    So basically half the player types will want the grind and the other half will not. Now I am not saying that half of the community total. Life is a journey, struggle, and a chore. We have come to expect the same thing from our games. Oh we also want free things, but we don’t value free things we just want them.

    I propose that a game that diminishes the grind will seem like a free thing. Therefore it will not be valued. The grind may be hated, but it is how we determine value.

    Pardon any spelling errors
    Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
    Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
    Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
    As if it could exist, without being payed for.
    F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.

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