Which means they are features MMOs commonly has, not that having them makes it an mmo.
YOu don't realize why that sounds moronic, do you?
Calling a feature "an MMO feature" implies that it is a key component of what makes an MMO an MMO. A lot of MMOs have graphics, but I wouldn't call it an MMO feature.
Incorrect. If you notice, you just ascribed a different definition to the commentary than what was provided.
You added the suggestion they are 'key components' which is never implied. They were referred to things thast an MMO commonly has, not that an MMO must have.
It is your own need to polarize what I and the original quoted person wrote that skews the reality of what was said. You are constructing straw man arguments as a result and ranting against absolutely nothing.
Narius called crafting a common MMO feature. That implies that is linked with what it means to be an MMO. It is not. And I called him out on it.
Anything is better than Diablo 3, lol. Diablo 3 = watered down Diablo 2 with better graphics and slower paced gameplay. It does have a RMAH though (which I really like) but the whole game and item system is centered around it, and it shows. Diablo 2 had a very interesting item system, whereas Diablo 3 is all about stacking stats, like WoW.
Thank god for GGG and Path of Exile. Life savers for the isometric ARPG crowd.
I think a Diablo MMO produced by Blizzard North would've blown the current game out of the water. Blizzard are going downhill, their hearts just aren't in the right place anymore. The last good game they produced was vanilla WoW imo, and look at the state of WoW now.
_________ Currently playing: Black Desert Korea (Waiting for EU)
Always hating on instances in MMOs! Open worlds, open PvP, territory control and housing please. More persistence, more fun.
Originally posted by DavisFlight There is already little to no difference between WoW and Diablo. Why would they make a Diablo MMO.
There is ..
Diablo is much better at action combat.
Diablo 3 is much better build diversity.
But i do agree that Diablo should not be made into a MMO. It adds little fun to be a true MMO. It has enough MMO features already (AH, crafting ...).
Wow, the meaning of MMO is well and truly dead if having an auction house and CRAFTING makes a game massively multiplayer...
AH is pretty massive .. and certainly multiplayer. But i didn't say D3 is a MMO, did i? I only say it does not need to be.
You claimed that having crafting is a feature that signifies whether or not something is massively multiplayer. Ah, but I should have noticed, it's narius. You spew foolish things constantly.
Speeking of spewing foolish things constantly wasn't it you who said Aventurine would never miss their second release date for DFUW, and that Darkfall had eve-like success? Hahaha pot meet kettle.
If Blizzard North had been allowed to make their Diablo MMORPG and not been fired because of their dreams would that have been better than the current Diablo 3?
Anything is better than Diablo 3, lol. Diablo 3 = watered down Diablo 2 with better graphics and slower paced gameplay. It does have a RMAH though (which I really like) but the whole game and item system is centered around it, and it shows. Diablo 2 had a very interesting item system, whereas Diablo 3 is all about stacking stats, like WoW.
Thank god for GGG and Path of Exile. Life savers for the isometric ARPG crowd.
I think a Diablo MMO produced by Blizzard North would've blown the current game out of the water. Blizzard are going downhill, their hearts just aren't in the right place anymore. The last good game they produced was vanilla WoW imo, and look at the state of WoW now.
I don't think blizzard are the evil horror show most people like to make out, i'd like to have seen how any other company handled the insane success of WoW.
In general terms the current state of WoW is fine. Starcraft 2 was great, I will be buying HoTS next month.
The only franchise that is heading to bin without some severe work is Diablo, I enjoyed playing through Diablo3 once and got about 80 hours from it but I won't ever play it again.
If Blizzard North were to of made a Diablo MMO, I would hope it would be very different to PoE. PoE is not an MMO, the only "massive" content in the game is the towns which are simply replacing the boring menu's used by most games for finding a group.
I love PoE, and it is an amazing ARPG, it's the only game I log in to daily currently - But it isn't an MMO and isn't trying to be one.
If the actual content (the maps you play through) were persistant (which would mean they'd have to be much larger and be built very differently) only then would it be an MMO. :P
Just trying to end any confusion.
_________ Currently playing: Black Desert Korea (Waiting for EU)
Always hating on instances in MMOs! Open worlds, open PvP, territory control and housing please. More persistence, more fun.
Originally posted by Adam1902 Anything is better than Diablo 3, lol. I think a Diablo MMO produced by Blizzard North would've blown the current game out of the water.
Anything? Even Hellgate London?
Blizzard North did try to make an MMO, it was called Hellgate London. It sucked.
Originally posted by Adam1902 Anything is better than Diablo 3, lol.
I think a Diablo MMO produced by Blizzard North would've blown the current game out of the water.
Anything? Even Hellgate London?
Blizzard North did try to make an MMO, it was called Hellgate London. It sucked.
Ok, ok. Maybe I am a little too harsh towards the game as it fell so short of my expectations as a Diablo 2 player, but you know what I mean.
EDIT: Maybe the upcoming Lineage Eternal could satisfy our needs for an isometric MMOARPG? It's Korean developed and I'm unsure at this stage if it is using the word "MMO" loosely and it only has persistant town hubs, or whether the actual game content will be MMO. We'll see.
_________ Currently playing: Black Desert Korea (Waiting for EU)
Always hating on instances in MMOs! Open worlds, open PvP, territory control and housing please. More persistence, more fun.
I don't think blizzard are the evil horror show most people like to make out, i'd like to have seen how any other company handled the insane success of WoW.
In general terms the current state of WoW is fine. Starcraft 2 was great, I will be buying HoTS next month.
The only franchise that is heading to bin without some severe work is Diablo, I enjoyed playing through Diablo3 once and got about 80 hours from it but I won't ever play it again.
Wait ... you spend 80 hours on a game and you think it is not a good game? 99% of the single player games won't even last 20 hours.
Originally posted by Adam1902 Anything is better than Diablo 3, lol.
I think a Diablo MMO produced by Blizzard North would've blown the current game out of the water.
Anything? Even Hellgate London?
Blizzard North did try to make an MMO, it was called Hellgate London. It sucked.
Ok, ok. Maybe I am a little too harsh towards the game as it fell so short of my expectations as a Diablo 2 player, but you know what I mean.
EDIT: Maybe the upcoming Lineage Eternal could satisfy our needs for an isometric MMOARPG? It's Korean developed and I'm unsure at this stage if it is using the word "MMO" loosely and it only has persistant town hubs, or whether the actual game content will be MMO. We'll see.
The upcoming LIneage Eternal looks good.
However, there is no need to choose. I doubt anyone would limit their gaming to only ONE ARPG. I play D3, PoE and most likely LE when it comes out.
PoE is a fun game .. but that does not mean that D3 is not a fun game. They are just different. D3 is much better in combat, and build experimentation, and polish. PoE has this nice chart idea, and a interesting skill gem system.
Originally posted by Adam1902 Anything is better than Diablo 3, lol. Diablo 3 = watered down Diablo 2 with better graphics and slower paced gameplay. It does have a RMAH though (which I really like) but the whole game and item system is centered around it, and it shows. Diablo 2 had a very interesting item system, whereas Diablo 3 is all about stacking stats, like WoW.Thank god for GGG and Path of Exile. Life savers for the isometric ARPG crowd. I think a Diablo MMO produced by Blizzard North would've blown the current game out of the water. Blizzard are going downhill, their hearts just aren't in the right place anymore. The last good game they produced was vanilla WoW imo, and look at the state of WoW now.
have you played diablo 3? i kind of doubt it judging by this post.
i have played both diablo 3 and POE extensively, D3's combat is superior in every way.
its more fluid, has better animations, and i honestly don't see how its slower? you mean because of cool downs? i don't see how D3's combat is slower than D2's or POE's, it seems faster to me actually, definitely less clunky than both of them.
there is also more viable build diversity in D3 than there is in POE and even D2 for the most part.
i am a fan of the genre in general and like all three of those games. but as far as combat is concerned, D3 is far superior to both of them IMO.
Originally posted by Adam1902 Anything is better than Diablo 3, lol. Diablo 3 = watered down Diablo 2 with better graphics and slower paced gameplay. It does have a RMAH though (which I really like) but the whole game and item system is centered around it, and it shows. Diablo 2 had a very interesting item system, whereas Diablo 3 is all about stacking stats, like WoW.
Thank god for GGG and Path of Exile. Life savers for the isometric ARPG crowd.
I think a Diablo MMO produced by Blizzard North would've blown the current game out of the water. Blizzard are going downhill, their hearts just aren't in the right place anymore. The last good game they produced was vanilla WoW imo, and look at the state of WoW now.
have you played diablo 3? i kind of doubt it judging by this post.
i have played both diablo 3 and POE extensively, D3's combat is superior in every way.
its more fluid, has better animations, and i honestly don't see how its slower? you mean because of cool downs? i don't see how D3's combat is slower than D2's or POE's, it seems faster to me actually, definitely less clunky than both of them.
there is also more viable build diversity in D3 than there is in POE and even D2 for the most part.
i am a fan of the genre in general and like all three of those games. but as far as combat is concerned, D3 is far superior to both of them IMO.
I agree, D3's combat is superior. But PoE's combat is still very good and solid.
Personally, I think the way the weapons and the skill tree work in PoE opens up far more customization then what D3 offers. Its why i'm playing PoE over D3 now
I agree, D3's combat is superior. But PoE's combat is still very good and solid.
Personally, I think the way the weapons and the skill tree work in PoE opens up far more customization then what D3 offers. Its why i'm playing PoE over D3 now
I think D3 has more syneries in skills, and more interesting builds (for example, you cannot do anything like the WD zero-dog build on PoE), and easier to experiment (you can switch build anytime).
PoE has a much more complex chart .. which is good for long term customization, but not for short term, fast changing experimetnation. You are pretty much locked in for your build. I am much more hesitate to try things in PoE, than in D3.
PoE does have a interesting skill system (i am talking about the slotted gems). While the skill design is not as nice as D3, it has potential, and they *can* add stuff to it.
I am still playing D3 more ... but i am playing BOTH games. There is little reason to choose one completely over the other. It is not like gamers only play a single game.
I agree, D3's combat is superior. But PoE's combat is still very good and solid.Personally, I think the way the weapons and the skill tree work in PoE opens up far more customization then what D3 offers. Its why i'm playing PoE over D3 now
I think D3 has more syneries in skills, and more interesting builds (for example, you cannot do anything like the WD zero-dog build on PoE), and easier to experiment (you can switch build anytime).
PoE has a much more complex chart .. which is good for long term customization, but not for short term, fast changing experimetnation. You are pretty much locked in for your build. I am much more hesitate to try things in PoE, than in D3.
PoE does have a interesting skill system (i am talking about the slotted gems). While the skill design is not as nice as D3, it has potential, and they *can* add stuff to it.
I am still playing D3 more ... but i am playing BOTH games. There is little reason to choose one completely over the other. It is not like gamers only play a single game.
agreed, while POE has a lot of options and you can do almost anything you want, all those options are not viable ones, even at lower levels.
try making a character that has mainly offensive passives and see how far you get.
D3 simply has more viable builds than POE currently, even though it seems to be more restrictive.
i think POE is a good game and it clearly has the best value as its totally free to play.
its also a lot less forgiving than diablo 3, which sets it apart a little bit.
that is a negative to some and a positive to others, it really just depends on your personal preference.
Blizzard North did try to make an MMO, it was called Hellgate London. It sucked.
Y'know. I'd love it if people did less one sided waving and commentary like this and spent a bit more time making valid arguments by fleshing out the reality of any given issue.
Like when they toss out 'Hellgate London sucked'.
Am I about to say anything that would refute that comment? No.
The differentiating factor would be the clarification of why it sucked and what caused it to flop under development.
First and foremost the noted admittal by the CEO Bill Roper that the title was shipped unfinished. This was an issue that was stacked against budget restraints as well.
Aside from that there is the nature of the team themselves. It had been noted in the past that while the dev team was highly creative and was good at design, they are not the best at development, having to spend a great amount of time going back to fix both Diablo 1 and 2 prior to their releases due to the large amounts of poorly constructed code that had to more or less get entirely rebuilt sometimes.
This was a dynamic that worked fine at Blizzard, where they could spend years developing a game to the point of being release-worthy before approaching the notion of shipping it. Blizzard wasn't a competitive company at that time, it was a development studio of people who wanted to make things that they would love playing.
Trying to take people who developed in such an environment and placing them within a much more highly constrained startup, and you should have expected the results. They were unable to maintain the design standards desired because they lacked both the budget and the time to accomodate the manner in which their team was comfortable with under development.
So you want to use Hellgate London as a reference to whether or not the original Diablo devs could have pulled off the creation of a Diablo MMO?
Then how about we consider the notion of placing them back in the environment where they could develop such a game and understand what might come of that. They have their flaws and their concepts may not always align with popular interest nor what some of us might deem enjoyable gaming, but fact stands that if they were given the capacity to give their designs the polish and refinement they require, what would come of them would be notably different.
At this point this kinda thing is not likely to be realized. The original team has spread out, and some figureheads remain trying to develop a product in the same vein, but without othewrs of the team contributing to the same concept and ideals that went into the original titles, you aren't likely to see the same concept and implementation that you enjoyed from the original games.
This isn't a finite notion either, and it's something that can actually be applied to a few recent or upcoming titles that have hinged on having a design reminiscent of an old title or a developer from it. They were a contributor to the success, but without the rest of the pieces, you are making something else. Something others may or may not actually be asking for.
So point here being though, don't throw out bits of unqualified information to justify an argument with a hollow claim.
And, one person or a few does not guarantee the realization of something born anew.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
agreed, while POE has a lot of options and you can do almost anything you want, all those options are not viable ones, even at lower levels.
try making a character that has mainly offensive passives and see how far you get.
D3 simply has more viable builds than POE currently, even though it seems to be more restrictive.
I thik it has a lot to do with the budget. Blizz affords to make skills wtih very different mechanics and the animation to go with it. For example, the wizard "hydra" spell can spew fire, ice, lighning, poision pools, and arcane orbs. It is probably very expensive to implemenet each one. That is why PoE loses out now.
However, there is no barrier (except money) to prevent PoE to add skills with the gem slot system (very similar to the D3 slot system, except the number is not set to 6). In fact, they can add these "hydra" spell if they want to in a future date. So i think the system itself is as flexible, but the result highly depends on "skill" content.
i think POE is a good game and it clearly has the best value as its totally free to play.
No argument here.
its also a lot less forgiving than diablo 3, which sets it apart a little bit.
that is a negative to some and a positive to others, it really just depends on your personal preference.
D3 inferno is very unforgiving when D3 was first released. There was a lot of QQ, then nerfed.
Personally i think the newer (although already a few month old) MP system is the best .. you choose your level of challenge. PoE should have that.
As a F2P game, i really don't have much complaints about PoE .. except i can see how it can be improved to be even more fun. Hopefully the game is successful, and devs would have the money to do so.
If Blizzard North had been allowed to make their Diablo MMORPG and not been fired because of their dreams would that have been better than the current Diablo 3?
Hell, if Blizzard had funded Hellgate, thag game would have blown Diablo 3 away, let alone a Blizz North version od Diablo.
Error: 37. Signature not found. Please connect to my server for signature access.
Carbine was formed by World of Warcraft lead developer Kevin Beardslee; Troika founder and Fallout producer, lead programmer and designer Tim Cain; and Turbine co-founder and City of Heroes executive producer Jeremy Gaffney.
When formed, the studio comprised 17 former Blizzard employees.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Guess we will find out when the Torchlight mmo launches.
I highly doubt MMO-ization will make a TL game better. What are they going to do? Add a city lobby? Add large scale pvp?
The core of TL, TL2 (and all other ARPG) is a small group dungeon romp, with good combat mechanics & loot. Adding more players to a dungeon won't make it more fun.
Comments
Narius called crafting a common MMO feature. That implies that is linked with what it means to be an MMO. It is not. And I called him out on it.
Anything is better than Diablo 3, lol. Diablo 3 = watered down Diablo 2 with better graphics and slower paced gameplay. It does have a RMAH though (which I really like) but the whole game and item system is centered around it, and it shows. Diablo 2 had a very interesting item system, whereas Diablo 3 is all about stacking stats, like WoW.
Thank god for GGG and Path of Exile. Life savers for the isometric ARPG crowd.
I think a Diablo MMO produced by Blizzard North would've blown the current game out of the water. Blizzard are going downhill, their hearts just aren't in the right place anymore. The last good game they produced was vanilla WoW imo, and look at the state of WoW now.
_________
Currently playing: Black Desert Korea (Waiting for EU)
Always hating on instances in MMOs! Open worlds, open PvP, territory control and housing please. More persistence, more fun.
Speeking of spewing foolish things constantly wasn't it you who said Aventurine would never miss their second release date for DFUW, and that Darkfall had eve-like success? Hahaha pot meet kettle.
it would be similar to this:
http://www.pathofexile.com/
Fired because of their dreams? What?
You make me like charity
I don't think blizzard are the evil horror show most people like to make out, i'd like to have seen how any other company handled the insane success of WoW.
In general terms the current state of WoW is fine. Starcraft 2 was great, I will be buying HoTS next month.
The only franchise that is heading to bin without some severe work is Diablo, I enjoyed playing through Diablo3 once and got about 80 hours from it but I won't ever play it again.
If Blizzard North were to of made a Diablo MMO, I would hope it would be very different to PoE. PoE is not an MMO, the only "massive" content in the game is the towns which are simply replacing the boring menu's used by most games for finding a group.
I love PoE, and it is an amazing ARPG, it's the only game I log in to daily currently - But it isn't an MMO and isn't trying to be one.
If the actual content (the maps you play through) were persistant (which would mean they'd have to be much larger and be built very differently) only then would it be an MMO. :P
Just trying to end any confusion.
_________
Currently playing: Black Desert Korea (Waiting for EU)
Always hating on instances in MMOs! Open worlds, open PvP, territory control and housing please. More persistence, more fun.
Blizzard North did try to make an MMO, it was called Hellgate London. It sucked.
Ok, ok. Maybe I am a little too harsh towards the game as it fell so short of my expectations as a Diablo 2 player, but you know what I mean.
EDIT: Maybe the upcoming Lineage Eternal could satisfy our needs for an isometric MMOARPG? It's Korean developed and I'm unsure at this stage if it is using the word "MMO" loosely and it only has persistant town hubs, or whether the actual game content will be MMO. We'll see.
_________
Currently playing: Black Desert Korea (Waiting for EU)
Always hating on instances in MMOs! Open worlds, open PvP, territory control and housing please. More persistence, more fun.
Wait ... you spend 80 hours on a game and you think it is not a good game? 99% of the single player games won't even last 20 hours.
The upcoming LIneage Eternal looks good.
However, there is no need to choose. I doubt anyone would limit their gaming to only ONE ARPG. I play D3, PoE and most likely LE when it comes out.
PoE is a fun game .. but that does not mean that D3 is not a fun game. They are just different. D3 is much better in combat, and build experimentation, and polish. PoE has this nice chart idea, and a interesting skill gem system.
I like both.
have you played diablo 3? i kind of doubt it judging by this post.
i have played both diablo 3 and POE extensively, D3's combat is superior in every way.
its more fluid, has better animations, and i honestly don't see how its slower? you mean because of cool downs? i don't see how D3's combat is slower than D2's or POE's, it seems faster to me actually, definitely less clunky than both of them.
there is also more viable build diversity in D3 than there is in POE and even D2 for the most part.
i am a fan of the genre in general and like all three of those games. but as far as combat is concerned, D3 is far superior to both of them IMO.
I agree, D3's combat is superior. But PoE's combat is still very good and solid.
Personally, I think the way the weapons and the skill tree work in PoE opens up far more customization then what D3 offers. Its why i'm playing PoE over D3 now
I think D3 has more syneries in skills, and more interesting builds (for example, you cannot do anything like the WD zero-dog build on PoE), and easier to experiment (you can switch build anytime).
PoE has a much more complex chart .. which is good for long term customization, but not for short term, fast changing experimetnation. You are pretty much locked in for your build. I am much more hesitate to try things in PoE, than in D3.
PoE does have a interesting skill system (i am talking about the slotted gems). While the skill design is not as nice as D3, it has potential, and they *can* add stuff to it.
I am still playing D3 more ... but i am playing BOTH games. There is little reason to choose one completely over the other. It is not like gamers only play a single game.
agreed, while POE has a lot of options and you can do almost anything you want, all those options are not viable ones, even at lower levels.
try making a character that has mainly offensive passives and see how far you get.
D3 simply has more viable builds than POE currently, even though it seems to be more restrictive.
i think POE is a good game and it clearly has the best value as its totally free to play.
its also a lot less forgiving than diablo 3, which sets it apart a little bit.
that is a negative to some and a positive to others, it really just depends on your personal preference.
Y'know. I'd love it if people did less one sided waving and commentary like this and spent a bit more time making valid arguments by fleshing out the reality of any given issue.
Like when they toss out 'Hellgate London sucked'.
Am I about to say anything that would refute that comment? No.
The differentiating factor would be the clarification of why it sucked and what caused it to flop under development.
First and foremost the noted admittal by the CEO Bill Roper that the title was shipped unfinished. This was an issue that was stacked against budget restraints as well.
Aside from that there is the nature of the team themselves. It had been noted in the past that while the dev team was highly creative and was good at design, they are not the best at development, having to spend a great amount of time going back to fix both Diablo 1 and 2 prior to their releases due to the large amounts of poorly constructed code that had to more or less get entirely rebuilt sometimes.
This was a dynamic that worked fine at Blizzard, where they could spend years developing a game to the point of being release-worthy before approaching the notion of shipping it. Blizzard wasn't a competitive company at that time, it was a development studio of people who wanted to make things that they would love playing.
Trying to take people who developed in such an environment and placing them within a much more highly constrained startup, and you should have expected the results. They were unable to maintain the design standards desired because they lacked both the budget and the time to accomodate the manner in which their team was comfortable with under development.
So you want to use Hellgate London as a reference to whether or not the original Diablo devs could have pulled off the creation of a Diablo MMO?
Then how about we consider the notion of placing them back in the environment where they could develop such a game and understand what might come of that. They have their flaws and their concepts may not always align with popular interest nor what some of us might deem enjoyable gaming, but fact stands that if they were given the capacity to give their designs the polish and refinement they require, what would come of them would be notably different.
At this point this kinda thing is not likely to be realized. The original team has spread out, and some figureheads remain trying to develop a product in the same vein, but without othewrs of the team contributing to the same concept and ideals that went into the original titles, you aren't likely to see the same concept and implementation that you enjoyed from the original games.
This isn't a finite notion either, and it's something that can actually be applied to a few recent or upcoming titles that have hinged on having a design reminiscent of an old title or a developer from it. They were a contributor to the success, but without the rest of the pieces, you are making something else. Something others may or may not actually be asking for.
So point here being though, don't throw out bits of unqualified information to justify an argument with a hollow claim.
And, one person or a few does not guarantee the realization of something born anew.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Hell, if Blizzard had funded Hellgate, thag game would have blown Diablo 3 away, let alone a Blizz North version od Diablo.Error: 37. Signature not found. Please connect to my server for signature access.
Yes Blizzard North wanted to make the next Diablo game into an MMO but Blizzard big wigs were against it so all working at Blizzard North got fired.
Sorry I was supposed to quote someone. *sigh*
This post was an answer to the #32 post.
i thought the majority of blizzard north went to carbine studios -- i think only 4 people were working on Hellgate
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-07-29-ncsoft-carbine-mmo-announcement-soon
Carbine was formed by World of Warcraft lead developer Kevin Beardslee; Troika founder and Fallout producer, lead programmer and designer Tim Cain; and Turbine co-founder and City of Heroes executive producer Jeremy Gaffney.
When formed, the studio comprised 17 former Blizzard employees.
EQ2 fan sites
I highly doubt MMO-ization will make a TL game better. What are they going to do? Add a city lobby? Add large scale pvp?
The core of TL, TL2 (and all other ARPG) is a small group dungeon romp, with good combat mechanics & loot. Adding more players to a dungeon won't make it more fun.
they announced last September that there are no plans for TL mmo
http://www.gamespot.com/news/no-plans-for-torchlight-mmo-6396935
EQ2 fan sites
Do you know if they are going to make TL3, or TL2 expansions? That makes much more sense than a MMO.