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Are you in favor of Battlegrounds?

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  • Soki123Soki123 Kelowna, BCPosts: 1,478Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by drakon3
    Originally posted by Soki123

    I agree MJ needs to comment on this, if he can. From what info we have, right now, BGs won t fit in at all. I loved DAOC BGs, many days spent days and days in them. That said, only going off the little info he has said, that people are quoting, there is no room for them at all, as they were in DAOC.

    This is why people are quoting that, and I agree with that.

    I believe MJ has also said there will be a training area of sorts as he doesn't believe in just tossing newbs straight into the fire.  I personally see BG's in CU as being a cross between a tutorial area and quick fix RvR ala DAoC BG's. 

    Ok, well then that is cool, and I like that idea.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by alterfenix
    If they need ensure that players meet players in their level range only then this should be done but only using open world gameplay mechanics. No to instances.

    DAoC battlegrounds aren't instanced. That being said, they won't work for this game anyway.

     

    I just hope the difference between vets and newbs isn't huge. It nearly killed Darkfall.

  • drakon3drakon3 Liberty Lake, WAPosts: 114Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    I just hope the difference between vets and newbs isn't huge. It nearly killed Darkfall.

    This is exactly why people want something similar to the DAoC BG's in CU. 

  • meddyckmeddyck Athens, GAPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by drakon3
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
     
    I just hope the difference between vets and newbs isn't huge. It nearly killed Darkfall.

    This is exactly why people want something similar to the DAoC BG's in CU. 

    Right on. And I do hope there is a big difference between vets and newbs. That is what makes it fun to keep playing the same character in RvR for years so that you can eventually become that powerful character. CSE just needs to balance the rate of progression so that the highest ranks aren't dime-a-dozen like in DAOC in recent years. High ranks should be something you really have to play a long time to achieve and when you do get there the payoff should be big.

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • TelondarielTelondariel Ottawa, ONPosts: 1,001Member
    Originally posted by meddyck
    Originally posted by drakon3
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
     
    I just hope the difference between vets and newbs isn't huge. It nearly killed Darkfall.

    This is exactly why people want something similar to the DAoC BG's in CU. 

    Right on. And I do hope there is a big difference between vets and newbs. That is what makes it fun to keep playing the same character in RvR for years so that you can eventually become that powerful character. CSE just needs to balance the rate of progression so that the highest ranks aren't dime-a-dozen like in DAOC in recent years. High ranks should be something you really have to play a long time to achieve and when you do get there the payoff should be big.

    I agree with you here.  I think there should be a large incentive to attain the highest levels.  GW2 failed in their rendition of RvR in their WvW system by not creating a substantial reward system, rather, adopting a shallow RvR-lite approach.  Now, there are definitly people that love what GW2 did, but their hype pre-launch was that it would be the next best thing outside of DAoC for seige warfare.  Making your efforts meaningful with objectives that matter, not only for the individual with skill progression but for the realm when you gain relics and a larger percentage of keeps, was the driving force in RvR.  I am very interested in how the system in CU is going to work out.

    image
  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by drakon3
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    I just hope the difference between vets and newbs isn't huge. It nearly killed Darkfall.

    This is exactly why people want something similar to the DAoC BG's in CU. 

    Except BGs don't really fit with the open wold dynamic of CU

  • Niix_OzekNiix_Ozek Calgary, ABPosts: 397Member

    Battlegrounds won't work unless there is a levelling system based around going through these BG's before you get to "big boy" rvr.

    I wouldn't count on them as his focus is purely the big rvr zone and crafting zones and that seems pretty much it.

    Ozek - DAOC
    Niix - Other games that sucked

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,977Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Telondariel
    Originally posted by meddyck
    Originally posted by drakon3
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
     
    I just hope the difference between vets and newbs isn't huge. It nearly killed Darkfall.

    This is exactly why people want something similar to the DAoC BG's in CU. 

    Right on. And I do hope there is a big difference between vets and newbs. That is what makes it fun to keep playing the same character in RvR for years so that you can eventually become that powerful character. CSE just needs to balance the rate of progression so that the highest ranks aren't dime-a-dozen like in DAOC in recent years. High ranks should be something you really have to play a long time to achieve and when you do get there the payoff should be big.

    I agree with you here.  I think there should be a large incentive to attain the highest levels.  GW2 failed in their rendition of RvR in their WvW system by not creating a substantial reward system, rather, adopting a shallow RvR-lite approach.  Now, there are definitly people that love what GW2 did, but their hype pre-launch was that it would be the next best thing outside of DAoC for seige warfare.  Making your efforts meaningful with objectives that matter, not only for the individual with skill progression but for the realm when you gain relics and a larger percentage of keeps, was the driving force in RvR.  I am very interested in how the system in CU is going to work out.

    So you prefer MMORPG's that extensively reward people who have lots of time to devote to playing a MMORPG vs people who might be more limited in their available bandwidth to participate.

    I realize this is pretty much the standard model for most MMORPG's, but that's one reason why I really favored EVE's system what let you skill up offline. 

    While many people don't understand and appreciate how it really levels the playing field, especially once you get a few years under your belt, this title might be for the more hardcore gamer who doesn't mind paying their dues (and has the time to do so).

    But to broaden it's appeal, Mark has to consider a way to level the curve a bit so that the newer players don't feel totally outclassed, or people won't stick around in any signicant numbers (see Darkfall for a perfect example of this actually happening in recent years)

    It's going to be a tough balancing act, to reward the long term, achievers without driving away the less dedicated player (whose money all spends the same, regardless)

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • ZiftylrhavicZiftylrhavic GrenoblePosts: 222Member
    Originally posted by Telondariel

    Thing is, there is just so little info at this point on how the game is really going to coalesce.  People keep quoting the same paragraph where MJ talks about how he will approach leveling differently, and they are using it as justification for their stance on BG's not being necessary.   The quote is taken out of context, repeatedly, due to the vague nature of what MJ is telling us.  No one knows how the leveling/skill/progression/RvR system is really going to pan out, so how can you use that as a foundation to say, "This is how the game is going to be, so X isn't needed".   Even more interesting, are the people who latch onto that and follow it up with, "That's not the way CU is going to be.  If you want DAoC, then play that and CU is not for you."  Really, guys?  C'mon.

     

    It's one thing to say you aren't interested in the BG's.  Great, you didn't play them and you preferred lvl 50 RvR.  But, please don't create ficition to back up your opinion:

    • It'll split the community
    • Its a small team so resources should be for the core game
    • CU is going to be like THIS so the BG's won't fit in

    BG's in DAoC didn't split the community.  Ever.  I think MJ knows better than the forum community how his resources will be allocated, so trying to speak for him is asanine.  And, finally, the game is still on paper and in the minds of MJ's team.  If they are still chewing over ideas, then CU as an entity certainly isn't written in stone yet, so please stop telling people who differ in opinion or vision to go away because "the game is going to be like this".

     

    I really don't understand the vehemence of some of the people here against the BG's.  It was  a core aspect of DAoC that entertained a lot of people.   The people that liked lvl 50 RvR went out into the frontiers and did that.  The rest of us RvRed in the BG's.  It worked, and it worked damn well.

    I don't know if the first paragraph is aimed at me, but i would like to clarify my thought. I didn't mean to say "CU isn't DAoC, if you want to play DAoC then CU isn't for you." What i thought was "CU is a new game, don't try to turn it into a copy of DAoC because you liked it." Sorry i'm not that good at communicating.

     

    As to if i like bgs or not, i answer yes i like them very much, the fact is i have every single of the 16 hibernian classes to the level 50, and than i got them that high before the bg quests that allow you to get to level 50 in one day were added to the game. I can tell you that i spent a lot of time in the bgs because i don't really like grinding PvE.

     

    I'm not saying here i don't want them. I'm saying they are not needed. Out of all the argument that are in favor of the bgs, the only ones that weren't properly countered are the one i talked about just now, and the fact that newbies won't stand a chance against old players. Here is an example of what is supposed to happen if i'm not mistaken about the game :

    Let's keep it simple. Each realm as only 8 players in the game, that played for years. After all that time, they pretty much attained the best way of playing they could, and so they are of equal forces. Then come on each realm 8 new players. What will give an edge to a realm over the two others? It's the rate at which those 8 new players will improve.

     

    That's why, if the realm pride isn't messed up, the old players will have all the reasons they need to help the new players to improve the fastest way possible, and there should be limited amount of purely veteran players groups roaming around only interested in killing everything that moves. Most of the groups should have one or several new player which will allow them to have fun against groups of equal strength unless a realm has a lot more or a lot less new players.

  • dynamicipftwdynamicipftw Arrow, ALPosts: 207Member

    Dear naysayers: Even if there was NO progression at all, it would be unacceptable to pit newbies against veterans. They would get crushed (repeatedly) and quit the game on day one. Now imagine what will happen with all those progression paths CU will have (if there are no BGs). 

  • ZiftylrhavicZiftylrhavic GrenoblePosts: 222Member
    Originally posted by dynamicipftw

    Dear naysayers: Even if there was NO progression at all, it would be unacceptable to pit newbies against veterans. They would get crushed (repeatedly) and quit the game on day one. Now imagine what will happen with all those progression paths CU will have (if there are no BGs). 

    I just posted to say why there won't be newbies vs veteran fights but rather newbies+veterans vs newbies+veteran fights

     

    I know i may not be that clear but here i just feel like you ignored me plain and simple (i'm even wondering if you read any of the previous posts).

  • OdamanOdaman Satesboro, GAPosts: 194Member
    Originally posted by dynamicipftw

    Dear naysayers: Even if there was NO progression at all, it would be unacceptable to pit newbies against veterans. They would get crushed (repeatedly) and quit the game on day one. Now imagine what will happen with all those progression paths CU will have (if there are no BGs). 

    Sounds like handholding.... check FP#3. The people for bgs are in disagreement with each other it seems.... a tutorial or a place for twinks to rofl stomp newbies.... it can't be both. The latter isn't needed at all. The former doesn't even apply to anyone on this forum and contradicts fp3. Assuming there isn't a power gap of course.

  • dynamicipftwdynamicipftw Arrow, ALPosts: 207Member

    Originally posted by Ziftylrhavic

    Originally posted by dynamicipftw

    Dear naysayers: Even if there was NO progression at all, it would be unacceptable to pit newbies against veterans. They would get crushed (repeatedly) and quit the game on day one. Now imagine what will happen with all those progression paths CU will have (if there are no BGs). 

    I just posted to say why there won't be newbies vs veteran fights but rather newbies+veterans vs newbies+veteran fights

     That's not how it worked in DAoC at all (and hopefully in CU too).  Newbies vary rarely get into veteran groups. 

    I know i may not be that clear but here i just feel like you ignored me plain and simple (i'm even wondering if you read any of the previous posts).

    Originally posted by Odaman

    Originally posted by dynamicipftw

    Dear naysayers: Even if there was NO progression at all, it would be unacceptable to pit newbies against veterans. They would get crushed (repeatedly) and quit the game on day one. Now imagine what will happen with all those progression paths CU will have (if there are no BGs). 

    Sounds like handholding.... check FP#3. The people for bgs are in disagreement with each other it seems.... a tutorial or a place for twinks to rofl stomp newbies.... it can't be both. The latter isn't needed at all. The former doesn't even apply to anyone on this forum and contradicts fp3. Assuming there isn't a power gap of course.

    Seriously? The twink problem (which was never a problem in DAoC btw) can be solved easily in a number of ways. Also you have the wrong idea of what handholding means.

     

  • Plastic-MetalPlastic-Metal Highland Heights, KYPosts: 405Member

    Despite the fact DAoC was a PvE/RvR style game, the early battlegrounds not only taught players how to operate as a team and how to use siege engines, it also allowed players to unlock certain realm abilities needed to make life much easier at end game.

    I'm against themed battlegrounds, but I'm all for persistent battlegrounds that prepare new players for the real RvR.  The BG's won't be forced on players, but it certainly needs to be optional.

    My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

    image

  • Plastic-MetalPlastic-Metal Highland Heights, KYPosts: 405Member

    I'm writing up a post regarding something else, but this vim diagram I created sorta explains why/how battlegrounds could coexist within Camelot Unchained.

     

     

    RED = Arthurians

    BLUE = Vikings

    GREEN = Tuatha De Danann

     

    Basically, all players have access to Open World RVR, but can also join the 'New "Level" Battlegrounds' - After a while, they'll be eligible to just the low "level" battleground, then middle, then "end game" will become available for players that just want a small map to help round out there characters before thrusted into open world RvR.

    End Game BGs could be accessible to a certain "level" or it could be completely open for all players.  All BGs are persistent and do not have a population cap; New 'level', low 'level' and middle level BGs should only award progression until a certain point point, then kick the player out upon death.

    ALL battlegrounds introduce new elements found within World RVR to help prepare new players for the actual game.

    Obviously, it needs a little refinement and I haven't reached this point in my own post as mentioned above.. but thought I'd throw it into this thread to spur some new discussion.

    My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

    image

  • ZiftylrhavicZiftylrhavic GrenoblePosts: 222Member
    Originally posted by dynamicipftw

    Originally posted by Ziftylrhavic

    I just posted to say why there won't be newbies vs veteran fights but rather newbies+veterans vs newbies+veteran fights

     That's not how it worked in DAoC at all (and hopefully in CU too).  Newbies vary rarely get into veteran groups. 

    Are you implying than you hope that veterans never help newbies? Or do i have a problem understanding hopefully? Doesn't it means "let's hope"?

    Did you even read my previous post? I gave a clear reason why any veterans caring for its realm would help newbies to get to a high level. I don't know how it worked in DAoC, i played it for only a few year and i have no idea how it could have been at the beginning, but i read than in the early stages, when realm hopping wasn't possible yet, the crafters were happy to help templating a new player and would work for prices that would seems too low to be worth it nowaday.

     

    Well until there is somebody that actually read my post and react to it by showing me with clear argument a point i missed, the answer is already given.

     

    EDIT : typos

  • OdamanOdaman Satesboro, GAPosts: 194Member
    Originally posted by dynamicipftw

     

    Seriously? The twink problem (which was never a problem in DAoC btw) can be solved easily in a number of ways. Also you have the wrong idea of what handholding means.

     

     

    Never a problem my ass. Buffbotted legendary using twinks would stomp people leveling like they're nothing. You apparently didn't play the game long enough to see twinks and 8mans (lol yes bg 8mans) roll over anyone who didn't do the same. You sound like the idiots who say it never split the population and that 12 people wouldn't make a difference in a fight when 8 people could kill 100. I'm done with this nonsense, watching people who have no idea wtf they're talking about make ridiculous claims about what never happened because they quit the game before it even had immunity timers =p

  • VargurVargur OsloPosts: 143Member
    Originally posted by drakon3
    Originally posted by Vargur
    If the battlegrounds are designed as a place where 8vs8s can fight without being bothered about the adds and zergs, I can see a place for them. Personally, I prefer zerging or RvRing rather than the 8vs8 game and there doubt I will spend much time in them, but if BGs can fill a role for 8vs8s then go for it.

    Actually, DAoC BG's were quite the opposite.  A lot of BG regulars (myself included) hated the 8man crowd and playstyle, and went to the BG's to escape it.  The BG's were fickle enough that if an 8man started dominating there enemies would quickly leave and go somewhere else.  But if there was healthy competition then people stuck around.  Plus most 8man's didn't like the BG's because there was no form of progression and very few iwin buttons.  It was purely for the RvR fun of it.   Plus there was the fact that I could take any new character I wanted to play, get them to 20, spend a few gold on a template, and go out and be 90% as effective as someone who spent 5+ plat on theirs.  There are plenty of 8man's that like good healthy competition, but there are just as many that would have invaded the BG's if a 5 plat template meant they could dominate.

    You are right about the DAoC BGs. I was thinking along the lines of Age of Conan BGs where groups signed up for BGs are fought in an instanced area. While I didn't like the instances in AoC I think something similar could work for 8-mans who claim they want to test their skills against each others without having to deal with adds and zergs.

    I am not sure how BGs will work in CU since there are no levelling outside of RvR which is why I thought of AoC BGs.

  • EllyaEllya leylandPosts: 99Member
    Originally posted by Ziftylrhavic

     

    I'm not saying here i don't want them. I'm saying they are not needed. Out of all the argument that are in favor of the bgs, the only ones that weren't properly countered are the one i talked about just now, and the fact that newbies won't stand a chance against old players. Here is an example of what is supposed to happen if i'm not mistaken about the game :

    Let's keep it simple. Each realm as only 8 players in the game, that played for years. After all that time, they pretty much attained the best way of playing they could, and so they are of equal forces. Then come on each realm 8 new players. What will give an edge to a realm over the two others? It's the rate at which those 8 new players will improve.

     

    That's why, if the realm pride isn't messed up, the old players will have all the reasons they need to help the new players to improve the fastest way possible, and there should be limited amount of purely veteran players groups roaming around only interested in killing everything that moves. Most of the groups should have one or several new player which will allow them to have fun against groups of equal strength unless a realm has a lot more or a lot less new players.

    Thank you !

    I'm so glad someone made this point.  It won't be newbies against veterans. It will be newbies and veterans against newbies and veterans! Even two or three years down the line, there will be people making alts and new players coming into the game (hopefully). 

    Yes, there may be groups of veterans only,  but I very much hope that there will be penalties for fighting against people who have a huge disadvantage, which should make those veteran groups look elsewhere for a fight.

  • MasahikoKobeMasahikoKobe Plantation, FLPosts: 51Member
    With such a lack of information in relative power between a day one player and a day 300 player, there is not enough information to support a BG either way. While it may be an enjoyable playstyle for some, if the focus of the game is to have large scale RvR between factions. The idea of BGs doesn't have a reason to exists in the game.

    If you are not going to play because the idea of no Thid, then you were never going to play the game in the first place as these things would not be there since it was not hinted in anyway. I personally don't feel the game need to cater to the niche of the niche in order to add a smaller battleground area for the idea of lower power levels.

  • dynamicipftwdynamicipftw Arrow, ALPosts: 207Member
    Originally posted by Odaman
    Originally posted by dynamicipftw

     

    Seriously? The twink problem (which was never a problem in DAoC btw) can be solved easily in a number of ways. Also you have the wrong idea of what handholding means.

     

     

    Never a problem my ass. Buffbotted legendary using twinks would stomp people leveling like they're nothing. You apparently didn't play the game long enough to see twinks and 8mans (lol yes bg 8mans) roll over anyone who didn't do the same. You sound like the idiots who say it never split the population and that 12 people wouldn't make a difference in a fight when 8 people could kill 100. I'm done with this nonsense, watching people who have no idea wtf they're talking about make ridiculous claims about what never happened because they quit the game before it even had immunity timers =p

    No /xp off command

    + No /rp off command

    + Level and RR cap in BGs

    = Twink problem solved (see Uthgard)

    Yes, it is THAT simple.

  • rodingorodingo Posts: 2,346Member Uncommon
    I like battlegrounds becuase sometimes controlled PvP with objectives is better, imho, than just meandering around the open world looking for mindless action.  I like the concept of objectives and special mechanics that some battlegounds of various games have becuase it usually brings out a form of strategy, even for pugs.  That being said, I hope CU will take a stab at doing something a little different than what we have already seen such as control point or CTF.  I would still like to see a "payload" type of BG as seen in Team Fortress or Global Agenda though.

    "If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  • AminitaAminita bolton landing, NYPosts: 8Member

    Battlegrounds  , like those in DAOC,  provide a  practice area for learning new characters, skills and grouping with your new character.  It also provides the opportunity to  Jump into the  game for a short period  of time,  without locking you down for 2-3 hours  if you  dont have that  window of opportunity.  Jumping into Big Boy rvr  with  a new and untried and  untested character 

    doesnt  make you a lot of  friends and  hurts the  group dynamics  if you arent  familiar  with  it. 

    Overall, varying  levels of BGs  allow  players to find a "comfort level" of playing to suit their skills and  needs, thus allowing for more people to enjoy the  game. 

  • ZiftylrhavicZiftylrhavic GrenoblePosts: 222Member

    If you take the time to read my previous posts, you'll see i already countered these 3 argument

     

    There is one about the new players not being alone vs veteran

     

    There is one about the tutorial (that won't be handholding but teach the basics), and i can add than veteran will help complete the new player's knowledge

     

    There is one about how you can find a lot of ways to have quick fun (gave only 2 example, but i'm sure we can find more with a little thinking)

     

    Please read what has already been said before posting

  • BowbowDAoCBowbowDAoC Granby, QCPosts: 470Member

    Something that i would be curious to see is some sort BG (not instanced) for newly made characters where you can't even group, where you can try your skills versus other players from other realms and test it. a "free-for-all" mini section of the map to gain your firsts few "levels" or points from progression, whatever you wanna call it.

    Of course it would only give you a small idea of how to play your character, but it would be a good place to test or even change how you personalised your character at creation. once you leave the place, there s no turning back (unless delete and restart).

    It could be a small island, and when you decide to leave the training area, you board a ship and it brings you on the actual land (in your realm part of the land of course).

     

    image

    Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
    Thurka on WAR

    image

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