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Do LFG System really ruin the community?

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  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,058Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Roxtarr
    Can anybody prove that a cross server LFG tool ruins the community? I'm talking about in the final numbers of the game. Can anybody show how this has contributed toward the decline of any game?

    No because its as much fact as any other made up statistics to fit within the paradigm of an intellectually bankrupt argument.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • niceguy3978niceguy3978 Gainesville, FLPosts: 2,000Member
    These LFG tools aren't implemented in a vacuum.  I can't think of a game that has actually launched with a dungeon finder like WoW's.  All games have some form of LFG system in place, but I think what we are really talking about are dungeon finders like WoW's.  As I said, these aren't in most games at launch, so the community has time to form.  However, if the community doesn't pull its weight then these additional tools get added.  Then people complain that the community suffers, when these tools wouldn't have needed to be added if the community weren't already suffering.
  • GreenHellGreenHell ludlow, MAPosts: 1,322Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Originally posted by Roxtarr
    Can anybody prove that a cross server LFG tool ruins the community? I'm talking about in the final numbers of the game. Can anybody show how this has contributed toward the decline of any game?

    No because its as much fact as any other made up statistics to fit within the paradigm of an intellectually bankrupt argument.

    Exactly. There is always whining about the LFG tool and about WoW. This entire thread is really about how people hate WoW. It shows you how off these forums really are. The most popular MMO in history is the most hated one on these forums.

  • DerrosDerros Posts: 1,077Member Uncommon

    I really dont think they do.  I never really noticed that anyone really got called out in a game like WoW for instance even before Dungeon finders, there were just so many people that, on my server at least, that the bad apples got lost in the crowd, or they just rerolled.  That being said there were some notable exceptions, like the story I heard about one person ninjaing a Nef drop then /gquitting, but those were few and far between.

     

    To have a really good community, it cant be a hugely populated game, because individuals get lost and eventually become just cogs in a big machine, easy enough to replace.  you also need to have real player interdependance, meaning maybe you just CANT level on your own if you are a certain class but you have good crafting and buffing skills, maybe you can solo well, but you CANT craft item X of uberness or get around as easily unless you get help from one of those classes that cant solo well. 

     

    The game needs to really be built from the ground up to help foster a community that needs one another, it just cant be expected to spontaniously generate in every game.

  • fayknaymfayknaym Washington, DCPosts: 125Member
    It depends on what other social systems are in place. If there are things like cross server friends lists and cross server guesting (invite your friend to join your group), then I don't think it would have as negative an impact on the game. But, the content should be challenging as well so that you have the opportunity to work together as a team and get to know each other. This is what I think has the biggest impact on the community; the difficulty of the content.  
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by xeniar
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
     

    A prime example of the current malaise that is affecting mmorgs today.  Single player mentaility in a mmorg world where socialising is a big part of the game.  Grouping with people for 30 mins to an hour + and not wanting to talk to anyone in the group, why group with them then?

    To kill stuff with them, of course. Why else?

    If i want to talk, a chatroom is a much better option than a GAME.

    kill sutff where?

    kill stuff why?

    kill stuff in game.

    Because it is fun.

  • FdiskFdisk Miami, FLPosts: 3Member

    No, they don't ruin the community; they make the game more fun and that in turn brings in more players which overall has a positive effect on the community.

    If you miss the days of the LFG tool there is nothing forcing you to use it; find a proper guild of like minded people and play like in the old days.

    Personally; when they didn't have a LFG tool I wouldn't even bother with instances.  It was nothing but frustrating, it'd take an hour to find a group for whatever instance you wanted to do, and most of the time those groups sucked because instead of running 2-3 instances an hour you were running 1-2 instances a day and it was much harder to get the hang of your class.

    Ultimately; I never ran a dungeon where I made friends or interacted much with the party anyway; the LFG tool has not changed that for me at all; it has just made me less frustrated with games and therefore I play them longer.

    I don't play MMOs to be social; I play MMOs because it's fun to run dungeons with 4 other humans instead of poorly controlled AI in a single player game.  Sometimes I'm social, most of the time I keep to myself because I personally don't give a crap to make friends with some dude on the other side of the country I'll probably never meet when I have dozens of real life friends that don't play MMOs but I love to hang out and be social with.

  • xeniarxeniar Posts: 805Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by xeniar
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
     

    A prime example of the current malaise that is affecting mmorgs today.  Single player mentaility in a mmorg world where socialising is a big part of the game.  Grouping with people for 30 mins to an hour + and not wanting to talk to anyone in the group, why group with them then?

    To kill stuff with them, of course. Why else?

    If i want to talk, a chatroom is a much better option than a GAME.

    kill sutff where?

    kill stuff why?

    kill stuff in game.

    Because it is fun.

    where in game? where in game do you go to kill stuff?

    Because its fun so killing stuff is fun? so your GRIND hate in the other thread about killing stuff for no reason is now seen as a fun activity?

    you guys change your standpoint on things in a heartbeat.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member

    Does it ruin the community in solo centric games with little to no community anyway, like WoW? No,

     

    In games with public dungeons, where socializing is a huge part of it, oh hell yes.

  • MadamefateMadamefate Brooklyn, NYPosts: 171Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    Does it ruin the community in solo centric games with little to no community anyway, like WoW? No,

     

    In games with public dungeons, where socializing is a huge part of it, oh hell yes.

    That is a very good statement rings true. But I think communities control how things ruin things not the game itself.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by Madamefate
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    Does it ruin the community in solo centric games with little to no community anyway, like WoW? No,

     

    In games with public dungeons, where socializing is a huge part of it, oh hell yes.

    That is a very good statement rings true. But I think communities control how things ruin things not the game itself.

    Communities are formed and shaped by the mechanics the game. The reason older games were more social is because you had to be social to get by, you needed other people.

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member
    Originally posted by Fdisk

    I don't play MMOs to be social; I play MMOs because it's fun to run dungeons with 4 other humans instead of poorly controlled AI in a single player game.  Sometimes I'm social, most of the time I keep to myself because I personally don't give a crap to make friends with some dude on the other side of the country I'll probably never meet when I have dozens of real life friends that don't play MMOs but I love to hang out and be social with.

    Ok, so you say things like that and we wonder why in MMORPG the community gets ruined. Maybe some people are right, it is the players too, old mechanics used to keep people like you out of MMO because they forced you to be kind to other players, they forced you to open your mouth and say hi to another human being.

    Socialising is an instictive part of survival, animals and humans socialise for survival, socialising is a necessity. If you actually played a normal MMO, not the watered down MMO lobby zergfests they have since WoW, you would quickly realise that you depend on other humans beings and that includes being courteous to them.

    No offense but why in God's name do you people think of yourself as MMORPG players when you reject the whole idea of an MMORPG, you basically all want lobby games like League of Legends and Diablo 3. I have nothing against lobby games, but they are something entirely different from MMORPG.

    I don't understand why some people are on an MMORPG site if they are not interested in other players and not interested in roleplaying, the only part that interests you is the multiplayer part, multiplayer is not the same as MMORPG. You almost take the notion of not participating in the MMORPG and picking out easy lobby games as a badge of honor, look at me I don't care about other people.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by xeniar
     

    where in game? where in game do you go to kill stuff?

    Because its fun so killing stuff is fun? so your GRIND hate in the other thread about killing stuff for no reason is now seen as a fun activity?

    you guys change your standpoint on things in a heartbeat.

    Dungeons, caves, grassland ... does it matter?

    Killing stuff for no reason? Killing stuff for loot? For quests? For xp?

    Grind is only bad when combat is badly design. People runs the same dungeons again and again all the time. It is not grind if it is fun combat.

  • zekeofevzekeofev Mesa, AZPosts: 233Member
    Originally posted by Fdisk

    No, they don't ruin the community; they make the game more fun and that in turn brings in more players which overall has a positive effect on the community.

    If you miss the days of the LFG tool there is nothing forcing you to use it; find a proper guild of like minded people and play like in the old days.

    Personally; when they didn't have a LFG tool I wouldn't even bother with instances.  It was nothing but frustrating, it'd take an hour to find a group for whatever instance you wanted to do, and most of the time those groups sucked because instead of running 2-3 instances an hour you were running 1-2 instances a day and it was much harder to get the hang of your class.

    Ultimately; I never ran a dungeon where I made friends or interacted much with the party anyway; the LFG tool has not changed that for me at all; it has just made me less frustrated with games and therefore I play them longer.

    I don't play MMOs to be social; I play MMOs because it's fun to run dungeons with 4 other humans instead of poorly controlled AI in a single player game.  Sometimes I'm social, most of the time I keep to myself because I personally don't give a crap to make friends with some dude on the other side of the country I'll probably never meet when I have dozens of real life friends that don't play MMOs but I love to hang out and be social with.

    LFG tool does not ruin communities for your type.

     

    It just ruins them for my type. I wish this type of gamer would consider what other people think about things rather than always wanting more for less, or the same for quicker.

     

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Fdisk

    I don't play MMOs to be social; I play MMOs because it's fun to run dungeons with 4 other humans instead of poorly controlled AI in a single player game.  Sometimes I'm social, most of the time I keep to myself because I personally don't give a crap to make friends with some dude on the other side of the country I'll probably never meet when I have dozens of real life friends that don't play MMOs but I love to hang out and be social with.

    Ok, so you say things like that and we wonder why in MMORPG the community gets ruined. Maybe some people are right, it is the players too, old mechanics used to keep people like you out of MMO because they forced you to be kind to other players, they forced you to open your mouth and say hi to another human being.

    And it seems that devs want us to play their MMOs now. And you are right. If MMOs are like the old times that forces me to yell "LFG" for 15 min to get a group, i won't play MMOs.

    Socialising is an instictive part of survival, animals and humans socialise for survival, socialising is a necessity. If you actually played a normal MMO, not the watered down MMO lobby zergfests they have since WoW, you would quickly realise that you depend on other humans beings and that includes being courteous to them.

    Socializiing is obviously not a necessity in entertainment. We are not talking abotu survival here. I need to socialize with my colleagues .. sure. But when i am consuming entertainment?

    "Normal MMO". If most MMOs are like lobby, what is normal? And why would i want to play a "normal" MMO when the "modern" MMO is more fun to me. The bottomline is that i consume entertainment as i see fit. If i don't want to depend on anyone, i pick the game accordingly.

    No offense but why in God's name do you people think of yourself as MMO RPG players when you reject the whole idea of an MMORPG, you basically all want lobby games like League of Legends and Diablo 3. I have nothing against lobby games, but they are something entirely different from MMORPG.

    That is no longer true. The only reason i play MMO is because they have the same play style as Lol and D3. Tell me i can't go into WOW and queue an arena like LOL. Tell me i cannot go into WOW and do a quick dungeon like D3.

    Heck, i will even play some MMO like SP games. STO has pretty good story missions. I don't even need another person to enjoy them.

    And don't kid yourself that i think of myself as a player of any specific genre. I just play games that are fun to me. And it happens that some modern MMOs are fun to me. Is there any reason i should not play them? I think not.

    I don't understand why some people are on an MMORPG site if they are not interested in other players and not interested in roleplaying, the only part that interests you is the multiplayer part, multiplayer is not the same as MMORPG. You almost take the notion of not participating in the MMORPG and picking out easy lobby games as a badge of honor, look at me I don't care about other people.

    Because MMORPG happens to have some MP parts. If a MMORPG can be played like a fun lobby game, and i like fun lobby game, is there a reason i should not enjoy these entertainment products? I think not.

    Is there a reason i should not talk about these entertainment products? I think not.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by zekeofev
     

    LFG tool does not ruin communities for your type.

     

    It just ruins them for my type. I wish this type of gamer would consider what other people think about things rather than always wanting more for less, or the same for quicker.

     

     

    Why should we care about what you want? It is not like

    a) we play the same games,

    b) we are friends

    There are those who like hello kitty games too, do i need to care about what they want to?

    We are talking about entertainment products here. Of course i only care about what i want.

  • KaosProphetKaosProphet Edmonton, ABPosts: 379Member
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Fdisk

    I don't play MMOs to be social; I play MMOs because it's fun to run dungeons with 4 other humans instead of poorly controlled AI in a single player game.  Sometimes I'm social, most of the time I keep to myself because I personally don't give a crap to make friends with some dude on the other side of the country I'll probably never meet when I have dozens of real life friends that don't play MMOs but I love to hang out and be social with.

    Ok, so you say things like that and we wonder why in MMORPG the community gets ruined.

    You're getting closer to the truth here.

    It never was LFG that ruined communities.  It was the people LFG was made for.

    Maybe some people are right, it is the players too, old mechanics used to keep people like you out of MMO because they forced you to be kind to other players, they forced you to open your mouth and say hi to another human being.

    And if you got in late: they forced you to tolerate the condescension and arrogance of the established cliques.  At least until you were established enough to form your own clique.

    At least in UO you could give some payback once you were established, instead of just passing it down to the next wave of nubcakes.  I used to think a PvP-switch was a great idea before I started actually dealing with EQ players, but the more I deal with them (and their progeny) the more I like games where ganking was allowed.

    Socialising is an instictive part of survival, animals and humans socialise for survival, socialising is a necessity.

    Feh.  There are too many solitary hunters and lone-wolfs out there to make a blanket statement like that.  Humans themselves are a strange mix of pack and solitary instincts.  Especially in America, where the meme of  "rugged individualism" grew thicker roots than most other places.  

    I don't understand why some people are on an MMORPG site if they are not interested in other players and not interested in roleplaying, the only part that interests you is the multiplayer part, multiplayer is not the same as MMORPG. You almost take the notion of not participating in the MMORPG and picking out easy lobby games as a badge of honor, look at me I don't care about other people.

    I can tell from this thread that you don't if you're not forced to.  I mean seriously, look at your history of posts on this thread.  Condescending, arrogant, derisive to anyone who doesn't think like you.  Who the hell would even *want* to be social with someone like that in the first place, if they weren't being beaten into it by external forces?

    Not that I'm any better on that front.  I don't pretend I am, at least not here.  Maybe we're different when we're actually in the game, dealing with situations where we can't afford to alienate the guy next to us by telling him what we really think of his attitude.  At least not until we're in the position where we can have the attitude outselves, and it's everyone else who has to put up with our attitude for fear of being cut out.

    Or, in my preferred (pk-allowed) games: just cut up.

  • xeniarxeniar Posts: 805Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by xeniar
     

    where in game? where in game do you go to kill stuff?

    Because its fun so killing stuff is fun? so your GRIND hate in the other thread about killing stuff for no reason is now seen as a fun activity?

    you guys change your standpoint on things in a heartbeat.

    Dungeons, caves, grassland ... does it matter?

    Killing stuff for no reason? Killing stuff for loot? For quests? For xp?

    Grind is only bad when combat is badly design. People runs the same dungeons again and again all the time. It is not grind if it is fun combat.

    the more you are saying the more im pointing over yonder where the SP games are.

     

    and also "Why should we care about what you want? It is not like

    a) we play the same games,

    b) we are friends

    There are those who like hello kitty games too, do i need to care about what they want to?

    We are talking about entertainment products here. Of course i only care about what i want."

    right back at ya

  • zekeofevzekeofev Mesa, AZPosts: 233Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by zekeofev
     

    LFG tool does not ruin communities for your type.

     

    It just ruins them for my type. I wish this type of gamer would consider what other people think about things rather than always wanting more for less, or the same for quicker.

     

     

    Why should we care about what you want? It is not like

    a) we play the same games,

    b) we are friends

    There are those who like hello kitty games too, do i need to care about what they want to?

    We are talking about entertainment products here. Of course i only care about what i want.

    Well see thats the thing. I want to understand what you like and want. While neither of us may be interested in hello kitty online I am glad a market has been identified for a type of player and it had a good lifespan. Options are good in a market.

     

    The majority of MMOs are catering to a solo player mindset. Less emphisis on story. Less emphisis on group play, less reasons to meet new people.

     

    Its healthy for many types of games to be in development as then it can maximize players that will be playing by hitting all types of players. Instead, everyone goes after WoW type players.

     

    But I expected no less from your type of player. Further proof that creating a more lobby type of game just ruins communities.

  • RusqueRusque Las Vegas, NVPosts: 2,229Member Uncommon

    I think cross-realm lfg's hurt server/shard communities as people become anonymous cogs in a machine. But server based LFG's are fine imo.

    I don't know what other games people are playing, but with or without lfg's most MMO communities are terrible - actually most people you interact with on the internet are fairly horrible to each other.

    Now, if there isn't a LFG tool built in, people obviously want to find groups and will create a method to do so. I don't mind if there is a dedicated global LFG channel but zone based channels suck, especially for lowbie alts or new players who can't get a group as most people don't play in those zones.

    Try getting a group for a lowbie dungeon in GW2 without a 3rd party website. You either stand in a city and shout for a good long time, maybe an hour (best case) or go to the zone and spam for group there. Good luck, you can easily sit there for hours and come up empty. You'll actually level past content faster than you can get a group. So either content needs to take days or weeks (meaning, each individual zone) or you need a tool to find those groups.

    In the end, I play games to play the game, not to find people.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by zekeofev
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by zekeofev
     

    LFG tool does not ruin communities for your type.

     

    It just ruins them for my type. I wish this type of gamer would consider what other people think about things rather than always wanting more for less, or the same for quicker.

     

     

    Why should we care about what you want? It is not like

    a) we play the same games,

    b) we are friends

    There are those who like hello kitty games too, do i need to care about what they want to?

    We are talking about entertainment products here. Of course i only care about what i want.

    Well see thats the thing. I want to understand what you like and want. While neither of us may be interested in hello kitty online I am glad a market has been identified for a type of player and it had a good lifespan. Options are good in a market.

     Sure. Understanding does not equate "care" though. It is interesting and amusing to know some like Hello Kitty online .. but do you really care abotu if they get their game? You don't do a thing to help them if there is no hello kitty online. I won't either.

    The majority of MMOs are catering to a solo player mindset. Less emphisis on story. Less emphisis on group play, less reasons to meet new people.

     What are you talking about? Solo-player does not eaute less emphasis in story. In fact, it is more. TOR is a godo example. STO also has story missions as its draw.

    Its healthy for many types of games to be in development as then it can maximize players that will be playing by hitting all types of players. Instead, everyone goes after WoW type players.

     healthy .. yeah. And there are many types of games. Don't tell me you like PS2 is like WOW. Don't tell me you think a space ship game like STO is like WOW. Don't tell me you think Age of Wushu is like WOW. Don't tell me you think that Eve is like WOW.

    But I expected no less from your type of player. Further proof that creating a more lobby type of game just ruins communities.

    As if community is required to have fun with entertainment products. I assume we won't play together? But that is no loss. THere are millions to PUG with just click of a button.

     

  • KaosProphetKaosProphet Edmonton, ABPosts: 379Member
    Originally posted by Rusque

    I think cross-realm lfg's hurt server/shard communities as people become anonymous cogs in a machine. But server based LFG's are fine imo.

    I don't know what other games people are playing, but with or without lfg's most MMO communities are terrible - actually most people you interact with on the internet are fairly horrible to each other.

    Now, if there isn't a LFG tool built in, people obviously want to find groups and will create a method to do so. I don't mind if there is a dedicated global LFG channel but zone based channels suck, especially for lowbie alts or new players who can't get a group as most people don't play in those zones.

    Try getting a group for a lowbie dungeon in GW2 without a 3rd party website. You either stand in a city and shout for a good long time, maybe an hour (best case) or go to the zone and spam for group there. Good luck, you can easily sit there for hours and come up empty. You'll actually level past content faster than you can get a group.

    Well, yes and no.   Downlevelling does keep you from going *too* far past the content-level (I'll grant that it is often still 'far enough' for it to feel somewhat trivial anyway, but that could be resolved by tweaking the downlevelling system.)

     The real problem is, most modern gamers don't see a reason to bother going back for it.  And even most of the "community centric" oldschoolers bred from the EQ model don't either - if they hadn't already walked away from GW2 beforehand for daring to try to break away from the holy trinity.

  • KothosesKothoses GalwayPosts: 760Member Uncommon

    Those grand old communities of yesteryear did not spring up because of game design, they formed to fill a gap in the game design.  The fact that in EQ or FF for example you had to wait around and work hard to get a group, the fact that getting anything done took massive amounts of time, that coupled with the fact MMO's were not mainstream is what made those "Communities".

     

    I hate to break it to you, but folk who like my self remember the "good old days" gloss over the details a lot with rose coloured lenses, the reason you had those "ties" was because of the vast amount of time you spent in a city or at a zone entrance just waiting for a group to call your number.  The fact is you had less game to play back then, barebones systems that catered to a very hardcore niche have been replaced with alacarte on demand content.  Fact is todays gamers are not content to spend 3 hours looking for a WHM to heal their group, they will just log out and go play another game.

     

    Is there demand for that old school game, sure there probably is, but I can promise one thing, if some one made that kind of game, it would not do well it would have to settle for being a niche game with slow developement cycles and time sink grind based content to succeed.  

     

    Yes I miss the communities of old, even wow had those back in Vanilla, but as the game got bigger the masses got more faceless, the audience for mmos is huge now compared to what it was, and a whole new generation of gamers have grown up since we stood in Bastok or Freeport looking for a group.

    Welcome to the future... maybe there is a place for people who want that old school experience, but right now it isnt in the current generation of big budget content led MMO's.

     

    Which is much the same reason as to why no one has developed a proper successor to the Bioware Neverwinter Nights.....and why the nearest we will get is Cryptics vision, its why SWG died on its feet (sorry but it did) its also why Eve is doing good, although amusingly 500k for eve is considered doing exceptionally well, but apply those numbers to any of the more modern big budget theme parks and people consider it "fail".

     

    On this site there is a demand for old school sandbox gaming, but thats because of the populace of these forums, in general the demand is not anywhere near as significant.  Which in turn means its not as profitable, which makes large developers living under the capitalist mantra of "Growth or die" averse to trying it.... now you can pick apart why "growth or die" is a narrow minded and ultimately self defeating aspiration all you want, but the fact is analysts tell us it is the case and business believes them ;)

     

    I got more than a little off topic there, but that is a wider view of why the communities of yesteryear are never coming back, however most will just scream "Generation entitled" or "CoD baby" or "wow kiddie" and then tell us how they were much nicer back in the day ;)

    Promoting thought a new Gaming video blog http://www.youtube.com/user/quinnthalas discussing games, gamers and the internet with gameplay footage as background.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,281Member Uncommon

    LFG + easy content+ great rewards is very bad for the community. This type of situation destroys guilds and eliminates the reaon to make friends.

     

    LFG on it's own always a bad thing.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by KaosProphet

     The real problem is, most modern gamers don't see a reason to bother going back for it.  And even most of the "community centric" oldschoolers bred from the EQ model don't either - if they hadn't already walked away from GW2 beforehand for daring to try to break away from the holy trinity.

    Why is that a problem? Just pug the content with a LFD type tool (or play a game allowing you to do so). In WOW, running lowbie dungeons for leveling is popular because of LFD.

    True, you cannot get your higher level friend to play that way. But if they don't want to play a low level dungeon with you, there is really nothing you can do, LFD or not.

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